OFFICIAL YoYo Games Indie Game Publishing

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by rmanthorp, May 24, 2018.

  1. nesrocks

    nesrocks Member

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    @Dog Slobber YoYo refers to it in social media as #GameMaker. I'm going by that. I don't see why calling it just "Studio" would make sense.
    Also, I said "I think", which explicits that it's my opinion. And no, I don't have marketing credentials.

    I think the name "GameMaker" is bad because it implies it's a cookie cutter tool to quickly make pre-defined game styles, meaning you can't make anything different or efficiently coded. A quick look at the catalog of games made with the tool destroys this notion. But that is my opinion of what a person judging it by the name alone would believe.
    When I go to game development groups and someone asks for engines suggestions, all I see is people recommending Unity3D for 2D games. Why are they doing that? They don't even mention GameMaker. My guess for the reason to why this is is that people think GM is an amateur tool. First impressions count a lot, and the name is the first impression. Every time I can I point out to them that GM is a great, optimized professional tool.

    @Toque Yes, every engine and plataform that ever existed has mostly bad games. The really good games are always the exceptions. But some plataforms more than others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
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  2. Dog Slobber

    Dog Slobber Member

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    YoYo Games very rarely refers to GMS as GameMaker, and almost always referring to it by it's full product name. Be aware of the role of a hashtag vs product name. I was just pointing the hypocrisy of those who are most critical of the name GameMaker almost always exclusivity use the the name they are critical of.

    Of course it wa your opinion, why do you think I thought it was anything else. And why do you think opinions or yours anyway are beyond scrutiny?

    Why do I need marketing credentials? I didn't offer any opinion regarding marketing, you did.

    But, I don't mind sharing my opinion. YoYo Games bought a $25 dollar piece of software, with a bad reputation, Windows only, single owner and turned it into a company that was sold for $22 million and had over 50 employees at one time, multi-platform game.

    This requires multifaceted skills, experience and expertise in many areas including marketing. I would not be as arrogant as to presume my opinion is better than theres.

    And that opinion doesn't need validation from marketing credentials.


    I don't, and anybody who judges a tool solely by it's name is a fool.

    How would I know? But I'm not silly enough to suggest it's because of it's name. I don't know, and neither do you.

    This place reminds me of a bunch of kids running lemonade stands criticizing the marketing of huge successful companies like Minute Maid.
     
  3. nesrocks

    nesrocks Member

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    Okay man, are you feeling alright? lol look at that wall of text. I made a comment about GameMaker, you attacked me. I explained myself and you got angry. I have no clue why. It's all good.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  4. Dog Slobber

    Dog Slobber Member

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    Not angry at all.

    Quit playing the victim, it's no longer in style.
     
  5. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Let's step back and look at the products in the GMS spotlight for a second, name of the engine aside.

    Yes, games like Undertale and the whole lot of big GMS names have industry attention. But there's no real diversity among them, almost every one of them is a single-player pixel action game made by one or two coding developers. You can't blame the market if GMS garners a "one-trick pony for small-timers" reputation this way. The empirical evidence speaks for itself, and the showcase YoYo puts up for itself speaks even louder.

    In the meanwhile, features that don't tie in with the indie single-player pixel action game use case end up being the same ones that get completely neglected, yet are desirable features for a professional engine seeking growth:
    • The support for 3D and vector graphics in GMS is a complete mess.
    • The upkeep for official API and monetization extensions is a complete joke.
    • The compatibility with source control in multi-branch and multi-developer situations is a complete disaster.
    • The roadmap for supporting data-oriented and object-oriented programming with non-action genres is a complete dud.
    I'm happy that YoYo is thinking about starting the publishing gig again, and perhaps it can help with responsiveness in API and monetization. But if current trends continue, I think the marketing department's work will turn YoYo further inward and harden the GMS-is-for-amateurs reputation even more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  6. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    This, so much this.
    The number of projects i abandoned or migrated to another language because data was getting out of hand... (I'm no action game developer)
     
  7. Juju

    Juju Member

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    Let's get this back on topic.

    So @rmanthorp, what services would YYG offer as a publisher?
     
  8. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    Already asked, no concrete answer.
     
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  9. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    Some of the stuff here is a bit ridiculous. I use GameMaker because it's accessible, and I'm not a great coder. Those people who are wishing for GMS to offer this, that and the other levels of functionality - why can't you just accept that you should be using a different program? That is why other game making options exist after all!

    If the majority of GMS users are coding whizzkids then sure - GMS should improve to offer them a better product, but if they are in fact not the majority then they should (speaking bluntly) shut up and go use something else. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

    As for its "reputation" - no one who bought Stardew Valley gave two hoots what engine it was made with, or that it looked like a SNES game. There's a programmer responsible for Hyper Light Drifter on this thread - I'd be interested to know if GMS perceived reputation (is that from joe public, or an indication of the person making the arguments opinion....) had an effect on sales, or whether it was marketing that makes more of a difference (I don't know how well it sold, but it seemed to be very well received)

    Make what the people want, and make it well, and you just need exposure for your game after that. Hopefully that's what YoYo will give with this publishing effort, and I'm curious as to what they will do. There are alternatives like GOG helping with publishing, but without approaching either - who knows how they stack up? Why not give them the benefit of the doubt and hold off on forming an opinion until you've actually found out the details. And if you don't like it - you don't have to do it!

    You could just spend $100 to put it on Steam and hope for the best, and risk having it getting sunk under a multitude of crap.
     
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  10. Toque

    Toque Member

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    The Gamemaker showcase video was published in 2016. (I could be wrong)

    A good start to promoting yourself and users games would be to update that.

    Great engine. Great games. I won’t mind if you brag about it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  11. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    Adding those features would benefit everyone.
    For imsinsta, they would allow much better libraries to be built, which would allow even weaker programmers to access much more exciting features.
    It would also allow other types of games to emerge from GMS.
    There are hardly any turned based, or strategy games made with GM, compared to the disproportionate number of action and platformer games.
    That's because GML makes it difficult to develop a robust infrastructure turned based games require, or to convienetly represent the large amount of data required for a strategy game.

    I should point out that features like inline scripts, custom user events and structures (lightweight objects) are not advanced features that only coding wizards use. They are in fact the most basic elements of many languages (in the form of classes, methods, etc).
    So even then, you would also see the less technically inclined users use them.


    But back on topic:

    Still no information on what you will offer?
    Has this program started already? Are there any titles already being published by YYG?
    If not, what is the timeline to expect?
     
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  12. DraXX

    DraXX Member

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    I'm more surprised YoYo Games and their parent company (Playtech) didn't advertise the publishing as a seperate sub-company "partnership", in order to give it some stand-off from the Game Maker engines. Playtech themselves has more than enough experience in this sector, where-as the association with past dealings on this site seems to be part of peoples hangup. For game creators, at least this an additional potential option and opportunity that wasn't there before.

    How games are show cased on this platform will only ever be used to bring attention to the engines capabilities in an attempt to bring about more sales (for YoYo, not you). Should this site be used to advertise and boost sales of game creations? No. The people who use this site are here with the mind set of game development. If you are looking to sell your game, you go to a site where people look to purchase / demo / play games. Here is not that place.
     
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  13. Juju

    Juju Member

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    This implies you think that YYG would only promote your game on the GMC or on their website. Is this what you think?
     
  14. Yal

    Yal Member GMC Elder

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    That's debatable, or shovelware wouldn't be as profitable as it is :p
     
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  15. Morendral

    Morendral Member

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    True, I guess categorizing what games fall into that is debatable too
     
  16. DraXX

    DraXX Member

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    Quite the opposite!

    I would be dissapointed (for me and any other Dev) to only be promoted on GMC/show case etc as it is primarily there for advertising their own product (currently GM Studio 2). Naturally, it takes great games, such as the ones you are involved in, to draw people to this site and "buy-in" to using GM.

    Playtech put their adverts over many sites already, so I would be worried if YYG did not exploit the reach and resources available to them.
     
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  17. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    I think for YoYo to do this successfully they need to get their house in order. Stop with being secretive from the folks that use their product, get a real roadmap together that they follow religiously with regular updates that is beta tested by the community at large and I mean large. You want people to use your services we need to have better commitments on the other fronts that you should already have covered. This should not be a half hearted attempt.
     
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  18. Yotzer

    Yotzer Member

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    GMS2 is a cool name.
    if i will stop using gms2 is only because there are cheaper options.
    i allready stopped using it in fact ,not happy about it,but when the basic module will be free and the export modules for personal use will be 100 $ i'll come back to it.
     
  19. Toque

    Toque Member

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    There can be a win win.

    Developers could get help and promotion.

    GM gets promotion by being associated with making great games.

    A healthy profitable GM is good for everybody.
     
  20. warbo

    warbo Member

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    Gamers are more aware of the engines used these days than ever before and like mentioned above, if they see the "made with unity" logo they will more than likely pass on the game or expect an asset rip also mentioned above.
     
  21. Dog Slobber

    Dog Slobber Member

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    How can you possibly know this?
     
  22. warbo

    warbo Member

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    It's not a 100% thing but you only have to read comments on many of the games where they are posted to see that people are starting to get sick of asset flips.
     
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  23. Toque

    Toque Member

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    I can see that.
    I could be totally off.



    I guess I’m in the mobile world. I was at a meeting (non tech group) and asked the group 8 people what they were playing? Do they know what game engine the games were made by? Did they know what unity , gamemaker were.

    They didn’t have a clue.

    But I’m looking at casual mobile players.
     
  24. warbo

    warbo Member

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    I would not really class casual mobile players as "gamers" tbh xD
     
  25. Dog Slobber

    Dog Slobber Member

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    Of course it's not a 100% thing.

    There are thousands upon thousands of games released in Unity, you read a couple comments and draw conclusions completely unfounded. It's more like a 0.01% thing.
     
  26. warbo

    warbo Member

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    so what makes you come up with that percentage? I guess i can say that your conclusions completely unfounded.
     
  27. Briana83

    Briana83 Member

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    THIS. I know quite a few GM communities that need to get this through their thick skulls. There is a reason behind certain features, and you're nitpicking does NOT help! When a user want GENUINE help, and they have it ALMOST figured out, telling them that they have to do something completely different is not the way!
     
  28. Dog Slobber

    Dog Slobber Member

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    Go ahead, if it makes you feel better.
     
  29. warbo

    warbo Member

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    :rolleyes:
     
  30. Toque

    Toque Member

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    You are correct!!

    So GM won’t support and promote mobile developers.......?
    I hope they (we) count too......
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  31. warbo

    warbo Member

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    Who said anything about not promoting?
     
  32. Toque

    Toque Member

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    Great if they promote all types of games.
    It’s all good.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  33. Elodman

    Elodman Member

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    Short story long:

    Perhaps we should realize that there are many kinds of gifts.

    How we take it, with pleasure or with criticism (which is the easiest), is a personal reference, which sometimes should be kept for ourselves. I remember the 80ies, when we were so hungry for pieces of info found in magazines, disc-mags, clubs. A program was either accepted, even worshiped, or simply dismissed, but luckily no world-wide small-scale chit-chat could ruin the atmosphere within fan & creator circles.
    So, maybe, some kind of post-quota should be established in official related forums. Or do people not ever want to see again a post or happy work activity from the creators caused by misbehavior? Democracy must have its boundaries (which reminds me of a Churchill quote).

    There will always be dissatisfaction, according to human nature, as there is no light without shadow.

    Remember, we, the majority here haven't worked for decades in programming, and doesn't know quite a few things about it and its effects. Also, judgement is totally superfluous & disturbing without the total view of a situation. Market will decide, by taking its share of GMS, if it remains worthy for the future years ahead.

    Passionate dudes have been leaving profit oriented & impersonal giant Co.s not without a reason. Let them and us and our descendants have a hope: we haven't been wasting effort & fun with this currently fine & evolving product, possibly supervised & made by the right hands + minds.

     
  34. Morendral

    Morendral Member

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    I'm sorry but I don't understand what point you are trying to make
     
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  35. Toque

    Toque Member

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    Yeah not exactly sure??
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  36. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would hope that if people saw an awesome looking game they wouldn't then dismiss it because of what engine it was made with, or who is publishing it. I can understand certain scenarios where they would - Unity on consoles seems to have performance issues, as an example (people being perplexed about why a 2d game like Broforce stutters on hardware that should be more than capable of running it is understandable). Or someone like EA / Activision being the publisher might make you think the game will be stuffed with microtransactions etc.

    But this thing with YoYo getting into publishing: it's my understanding that they haven't given concrete details about the deal on offer because there aren't any. The gist that I got from the announcement was that each project would be reviewed and then the terms decided after that. Presumably taking into account things like: technical proficiency, market appeal and other stuff that any publisher does on a case by case basis.

    Look at Bungie: there's a news story about chinese investment in them for 100 million. Do you honestly think that kind of money will be given to a fledgeling developer? Perhaps one churning out me too games, with asset flips and utterly dire performance...Obviously publishers don't do that. Bungie has proven talent, and so gets a better deal. If your project looks amazing, or could break new ground, or is a fresh entry into an unsaturated genre - you might get a great deal. If it's not those things and might just make moderate sales - you presumably get a bog standard deal.

    As far as I can tell, you will only know what YoYo will offer when you actually have a game to approach them with. How is that different to any other publisher? It would be interesting to hear from YoYo as to how they'd advertize games, which surely can't be something they'd feel the need to keep behind closed doors. But as for the rest I can understand why they aren't setting anything in stone, because that's not how it works!
     
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  37. Justice

    Justice Member

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    So, this thread still exists. My question is: What has YYG ever done, ever, to suggest they'd be a trustworthy and competent business partner? The marketplace? The engine? Their cutting edge public relations nightmare-generator? Their skill at promoting GMS2?

    Just a bit odd nobody's brought this up. Can't imagine why you'd tie your fortunes to this company.
     
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  38. rIKmAN

    rIKmAN Member

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    "Hey, when are you going to start advertising my game?"

    * 3 months pass.... *

    "It's on our todo list, and has already been advertised internally for a while, but we can't you give a definite date. Soon-ish. Maybe."

    "This is unacceptable!"

    * 1 hour passes... *

    "Your case has been marked as resolved, please take the time to leave feedback on the help and support you received today!"
     
  39. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    When Valve introduced Steam it was a new step for them, and it was a mess. When you're trying something new mistakes get made, and hopefully you learn from them and get the chance to improve. Steam is huge now, and yet it's still not perfect and probably never will be. That's just life in an imperfect world.

    As for GMS 2 - when Epic released Unreal Engine 3 there were issues with developers regarding it's completeness as a product (Silicon Knights had a lawsuit with them after they abandoned using it for 'too human') and performance. CryEngine is also something I've read is a pig to develop with, and had naff support from Crytek. It could easily be argued those are two companies with more technical and financial clout than YoYo, and yet they made mistakes and promises that weren't kept. It happens! Things don't always go to plan.

    I don't understand why people like yourself keep using the software, or being on the community, if you have such a beef with the program / company. You are free to have an opinion based on past ventures, but this is a new one presumably run by new people. If someone comes on here who has actually done the publishing route with them, and they say "It stinks! They're inept!" then it would carry more weight with me than cynicism based on previous mistakes. But as far as I'm aware it's far too early into this venture for anyone to be able to say it's a failure.

    It seems to me that what this topic needs is people who actually know what they're talking about (which I freely admit is not me - still haven't finished a game to publish) and can say how self publishing worked out, how having an "established" publisher worked out , or even has experience with YoYo themselves. I spoke to someone who had WayForward publish their game (a boy and his blob, double dragon neon, shantae, bloodrayne, and more), and they have somewhat of a reputation within the indie scene. And guess what....they weren't happy with how much publicity their game got from this fairly established publisher, though I didn't get into the contract side of things and whether they were reliable for payment, what deal they got financially etc.

    @Nocturne @Juju
    I realize you may not want to be dragged into this topic, or reveal personal things about the games you've released, but as two people who I do know have published games (Skein, Hyper Light Drifter) you have actual experience regarding self publishing / having a publisher that puts you in a better position to comment than some on here. Would either of you mind giving some insight into how that path went for you? (My apologies if that's being a bit forward, but I have to wonder if anyone else on this thread actually has that experience)
     
  40. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    You make a valid point. The problem we see though on a day to day basis is that while GMS2 is good we just see a mixed bag of responses from YoYo from Bugs submitted to them to communication on Updates. What I think a good few here would like to see is more consistency from them. Why we stick around is that YoYo is a small fantastic group and that we still very much like GameMaker.
     
  41. Juju

    Juju Member

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    I was not involved on the business side of Hyper Light Drifter or The Swords Of Ditto. However, I can say that YoYoGames' direct assistance was extremely important for our work.
     
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  42. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    Was that technical assistance, or advice on publishing etc? I only ask because some on here seem to have a fairly negative impression of YoYo, and you are one of the people commenting who has direct experience of their input.
     
  43. Justice

    Justice Member

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    Yeah, the rest of us just pay for and use their software. Totally no way to tell if they're competent or trustworthy from that.
     
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  44. Guy_Typing

    Guy_Typing Member

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    @the_dude_abides
    Survivors bias. How many companies have also done the same thing and failed? Too numerous to know.

    I'm glad you mentioned Steam though as it's one of the companies that make yoyo games publishing rather needless for developers. There used to be a much greater need for publishers when you had to purchase a hard copy at a store and that hard copy had to be distributed internationally. Now all of that overhead is taken care of digitally, removing much of the need for a publisher as dev companies can just release on Steam,Xbox,Playstation,Mobile devices, all digitally.

    As far as your mention of Unreal Engine and Crytek I'm glad you mention them. Not only can you get a job in the industry if you have a released game on your portfolio via one of these engines but also they take a revenue share not straight up cash up front like YoYo does for there product. Master collection for GMS1 full price was over 800 dollars for pretty much the life of the GameMakerStudio. To have to pay that much to Unreal under there current business model for example, a users game would be making near 20,000 dollars. That's a pretty reasonable transaction because it guarantees you will be paid or you will pay nothing. Furthermore, for those who design and release games on the mobile platforms, are basically mandated to jump to GMS2 to continue support for volatile platforms. This results in hundreds of dollars more for the developers as they are forced to upgrade to the new mobile platform modules. Again without any guarantees of ROI.

    This is not a valid point, you're not even saying anything here.

    A lot of us are leaving. The people who have left can't exactly defend themselves to your comment now can they? What makes you think people aren't leaving?.

    This is just naive. It's not a different company.

    We do know what we are talking about.

    Yeah they probably really didn't want to be dragged in and it was a pretty lame move on your part. Can't fend the conversation for yourself and needed to call backup? And again, you are going to be getting some survivor bias calling on the lead mod and someone who has had great success with their product.

    The truth is, and it may seem counter-intuitive, but a lot of the people complaining, who seem jaded and bitter, actually have a lot of love for GMS, as well as making games. The fact that they are still here and participating shows that these are some of the most loyal customers and instead of acting like they don't know anything and that they are just crappy people maybe we should be listening to them and realizing that these are people who have good points that can make the company better.

    For example, I just got a review in for a game that I released on mobile and it was a one star review complaining about the game being too slow. Now, do I think I deserve a one star review after slaving away 12 hours a day non-stop because the game was too slow? What did I do? I thanked the user for their review and made the game play move faster because they were right, the game play was too slow. The point is, criticism sucks and hurts. But it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's the companies job to remove their pride and say, "even though this customer is being unfair, they have a point".

    Alright, I'm getting off this stupid soap box.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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  45. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    @Guy_Typing
    You want people's opinions to be heard, yet spew accusations at me for wanting to offer a counterbalance? Nice level of hypocrisy there.....
     
  46. the_dude_abides

    the_dude_abides Member

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    I guess my hopes of this thread offering anything informative about the publishing process are a waste of time. Pity, as I'd love to hear the experiences of those who have finished a game and how it went for them.
     
  47. Juju

    Juju Member

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    I wouldn't want to go into detail as it's not my place to do so. YoYoGames have been very helpful in a number of ways, and both games benefitted from their involvement.

    Additionally, here's the thing about being professional in any industry - bitching about your business partners is generally seen as a bad move. If people are trashing* YYG but are still using GameMaker, I dare say that they're not people that should be listened to for advice on how to build a career in the games industry.

    *NB. There's is a difference between "trashing" and "fair and considered criticism".


    This has been unproductive because users insist on debating tangentially rather than dealing with the matter at hand: "What are YoYoGames offering GameMaker developers as a publisher?" YYG have left an information vacuum and tomfoolery is creeping in, as it always does.

    Having spoken to YYG about this in person, I have a better idea of what's happening and where they're at - but it's not for me to put words into their mouth. Someone from the publishing side (that's Chris or Fraser) really should clear this up.
     
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  48. Guy_Typing

    Guy_Typing Member

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    This is a false equivalency though. We aren't business partners with yoyo we're customers. Are you a business partner with Microsoft if you use Windows?

    Lol What? Get over yourself. People are entitled to their opinion. If we're playing by your rules then let's just shut this thread down now, no need to have a discussion because there won't be any. Unlike you I far prefer peoples arguments be weighed on the strength of their content rather than what side of the fence they're on.

    That's precisely the point and problem. I'm glad we are on the same page. Why is there an information vacuum? Information, transparency and understanding is what some of us are demanding.

    Please enlighten us. You don't have to put words in their mouth just use the words they said to you. Unless I'm mistaken and we aren't privy to this information.
     
  49. Yong

    Yong Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2018
    Posts:
    37
    ?? I mean sure, it'd be nice to know what Yoyogames' plans are but the publishing branch has no need to be transparent with anyone other than the devs they've chosen to publish ie. business partners.
     
  50. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Posts:
    3,240
    That would be true if YoYo is only considering the developers on their call list, but the announcement implies otherwise:
    If they intend on accepting submissions from the public, they should be up-front with the public about what to expect. And given that they only accept GMS-made work, both partnered developers and the public need YoYo's assurance on their procedures on supporting code frequently used in publishing.
     
    Guy_Typing likes this.

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