Your thoughts: The Marketplace Library

ShaunJS

Just Another Dev
GMC Elder
Hey guys,

I've known for a while that many developers aren't keen on the marketplace library / marketplace workflow in GM:S. I have my own opinions on the matter of course but I wanted to gather some specifics from you guys.

The marketplace as a whole is less important here, specifically interested in thoughts about its integration inside the IDE.

Specific missing features?
Specific UX difficulties?
Specific aesthetic issues?
How would you most like to see it improved?

Cheers!
 
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icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
>>The marketplace as a whole is less important here, specifically its integration inside the IDE.

Could you rephrase your question? it's a little ambiguous. The marketplace is less important, specifically the interface inside the IDE (is less important) so what do you want to discuss?
 

gitwalrus

Member
For me at least it does not feel enough like a community. I kind of want more of the community vibe. It does not have the same feel as the Sandbox. The Sandbox was a cool place for people to share things but the Marketplace feels like a store so it will only attract people that want to sell things and not just share them.
 

csanyk

Member
Hey guys,

I've known for a while that many developers aren't keen on the marketplace library / marketplace workflow in GM:S. I have my own opinions on the matter of course but I wanted to gather some specifics from you guys.

The marketplace as a whole is less important here, specifically its integration inside the IDE.

Specific missing features?
Specific UX difficulties?
Specific aesthetic issues?
How would you most like to see it improved?

Cheers!
The biggest issue for me is the slow performance of My Library in the IDE when you have a large manifest. That should be the top priority. It punishes users for buying "too many" assets from the marketplace, which can only depress sales through the marketplace. It's an absolute disaster for users. It's so slow to bring up the interface that I'm reluctant to use the assets I own at all, which makes them a poor value to purchase, even though the quality of the best assets may be very good.

Overall, the UX for My Library could be better in many ways, and would benefit from more iterations of the design. But before you do anything else, fix the slowness of My Library. It's broken. Fix what's broken before you add new things. This should be YYG's #1 top priority right now, as it directly affects your users' ability to make money with the Marketplace, and this has been a known issue for over a year now.

When you do get to adding new things to the IDE, here's a few ideas:
  1. provide a way for users to access older versions of the assets, not just the latest. Upgrades to assets can break old code, and if you bought something you should have the right to access old versions of it.
  2. Allow the user to organize their plug-ins through a tag system, and filter by tag.
  3. Allow the user to add notes to the assets in My Library, so they can keep track of them better. I'd like to be able to put notes on assets I've used before and found useful, how to use them, etc.
  4. Allow the user to create groups of assets so they can quickly create a new project and add the group to the project in a few clicks. For example, if I have a few assets I always like to use with platformers, or shooters, or whatever, let me create an asset group called Platformer or Shooter, add the group to my next platformer/shooter/etc project with 1-2 clicks.
  5. Tighter integration between the listing in My Library and the rating/reviewing features on the Marketplace.
  6. Rather than displaying just the asset title, publisher name, and version number in My Library, let me expand the asset's row to show full details -- show the description and images for it as well. It helps the user to recognize the asset they bought to have its branding reinforced here.
  7. Let me multi-select assets by checkbox and do actions to all of them (add to project, update, etc.)
  8. Team purchase - Let GM:S users who are members of a team purchase assets for their entire group. This will help corporate studios with teams of developers better manage purchases.
  9. LET ME SELL MY ASSETS TO ANYONE WITH ANY LEVEL OF GM:S, NOT JUST PRO USERS. This is a way to expand the customer base greatly, and allow YYG to make some money from free-license users, via the 30% cut they take from our sales.
Another thing YYG should do (again) is publish their roadmap for GM:S/GM:Next. People should not invest a lot of time and energy into developing an extension for the marketplace, only to have YYG pull the rug out from under them by releasing a new version that provides the features of their asset. It's hugely demoralizing to invest so much effort and then not expect any sales because YYG were secretly working on the same thing, and now it's included in Standard or Pro. I don't know that this has happened, but it would be terrible for a Marketplace seller if it did happen.
 
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Jeremy

Member
I always have trouble removing an asset from my game once imported. I have to delete every single script/object/sprite by hand; wich is tedious.
If there is a proper way to remove an asset, please do tell me.
 

ShaunJS

Just Another Dev
GMC Elder
>>The marketplace as a whole is less important here, specifically its integration inside the IDE.

Could you rephrase your question? it's a little ambiguous. The marketplace is less important, specifically the interface inside the IDE (is less important) so what do you want to discuss?
Adjusted.
 

TsukaYuriko

🌠
Forum Staff
Moderator
Regarding issues...
Even just opening the My Library window takes roughly three minutes for me ("Downloading Marketplace information" and "Populating list"). During this time, the IDE's refresh rate drops to 1FPS and I can't continue working with it as the loading window is modal. In the test I just did, it even froze GM:S completely for a few seconds, then the loading window closed and started the loading process again from the beginning.

This is such a huge pain that I've created a local project which contains nothing but the assets I use the most, and whenever I want to add them to another project, I just grab them from that instead of going through the trouble of opening My Library.

I can clearly remember this not having been that extreme a few years ago, but also can't say that I've been able to observe a linear increase in loading time in relation to the number of assets I have purchased. It seems exponential to me, which makes me worry greatly about future purchases.

Hopefully needless to say, this seems like the biggest deal breaker for me as it requires me to break my workflow in order to use assets, and should be the highest priority to fix.


Another big issue is that there seems to be no way to download older versions of assets. This is also quite problematic, as the newest version of an asset is not guaranteed to be free of bugs or other issues. Keeping local backups of older versions (which I'm currently doing) may be a pre-emptive workaround (although it feels more like a wet bandaid), but that plan falls apart as soon as I encounter this type of problem with an asset I've just newly purchased.
In such a situation, I'd be left with only the option to wait for the developer to release a new version of the asset. This could lead to me having to stall my project's progress, forcing me to suffer the consequences of a problem I'm not even responsible for in the first place... and I'm sure all developers are equally fond of that concept.


Regarding features... there are quite a lot of things that come to mind. Most of them are related to organization, and the current lacking possibility thereof.

There is no way to filter based on category or name, both of which seem like basic features that should be a given for something like this.
I can't organize my assets as I can't add tags (and can't filter by tags) or even mark assets as favorites. The latter seems like a basic feature that's missing, the former would be a luxury.
It's impossible to sort out particularly useful/useless assets because there are no folders I can put them into. There is only one very long list which is very cumbersome to navigate (the aforementioned lag issues contribute to that).

Being able to sort assets into folders seems like an ideal solution for this to me, as I could then add all of my favorite assets to one folder, all assets that are useful for SHMUPs to another, for RPGs to yet another... (as some assets may overlap, ideally I would be able to add one asset to multiple folders - maybe "collections" would be a more fitting but also more obscure term to describe that?)

Minor nitpicks...
The "Awaiting Download" / "Ready For Use" font colors are way too bright for use on a light gray background. This is probably exclusive to the GM8 skin.
Scrolling down the My Library list is snail-paced. It takes eight scrolls to scroll enough vertical space to scroll by one asset. Somewhere between one third to half of an asset per scroll seems ideal.


Short version:
  • Having too many assets results in ungodly startup time and lag. This should be fixed.
  • Don't force asset updates down our throat. Let us download and use whatever version of an asset we want/have to.
  • Folders/collections or something similar should be added.
  • Users should be able to add tags to assets locally.
  • The ability to filter by name or tag should be added.
  • Overly bright yellow/green look bad on the GM8 skin.
  • Scrolling the My Library list shouldn't take an eternity.

Another thing YYG should do (again) is publish their roadmap for GM:S/GM:Next. People should not invest a lot of time and energy into developing an extension for the marketplace, only to have YYG pull the rug out from under them by releasing a new version that provides the features of their asset. It's hugely demoralizing to invest so much effort and then not expect any sales because YYG were secretly working on the same thing, and now it's included in Standard or Pro. I don't know that this has happened, but it would be terrible for a Marketplace seller if it did happen.
I second this (but am aware of the complaytechations surrounding it), albeit not purely for Marketplace reasons... but I'll save that for another topic.
I've worked on an extension for a few days that would enable users to play audio and define loop points for it. Then audio_sound_*et_track_position were added.
 
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Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
I agree. The Marketplace integration is horrendously slow, horrendously hard to navigate, and just plain horrendous.
  • One of my absolutely biggest pet peeves is randomly being logged out when trying to do something, which closes the list and reloads it once I log in again, forcing me to navigate it AGAIN. This wouldn't be that huge of a pain if the list wasn't so hard to navigate and so slow to load you could go make yourself a couple of sandwiches before it's finished. Don't make the list again every single ****ing time, just build it once the first time and then never again unless Studio is restarted, it's not like people buys assets several times per day.
  • The list completely ignores your mouse wheel sensitivity making scrolling through it completely pointless, and the lag makes using the scroll bar pretty much impossible as well.
  • There's no way to sort the list or search in it, so you can't find a particular asset unless you remember its name.
  • Trying to write a review or otherwise interact with an asset opens a web browser in the marketplace window instead of in your actual web browser, which ruins multitasking and causes a list reload AGAIN once you're done.
  • Having to upload asset packs from within Studio also is pretty limiting, some types of asset packs aren't what you'd have inside a project anyway. I've made a sound effect pack with over 400 files, and batch-importing them into Studio prepends sound<number>_ before their filenames so that I'd basically need to manually change 400 prefixes... not happening. Not to mention most people wouldn't even use all of the sound effects in one game anyway but would like to only load the ones they WANT to use, which the Marketplace format doesn't allow. I also made a texture pack at one point with >4000x4000 pixel images... and just opening the background editor to rename them would cause GMS to stop responding properly after the 3rd image. In both cases, I ended up feeling like putting these huge numbers of resources in a single project would just be wasting a lot of effort... for making the end user have trouble using the asset.
  • Being punished for buying too many assets is only going to make people buy less assets, and being aware of that isn't really going to boost people's will to create marketplace assets.
  • The consumer base being limited to GMS pro users means that you have a very small audience to begin with, while sites like Itchio lets you sell assets to anyone. The Marketplace is, from a content creator's point of view, too limited to be worth the effort (unless you can just upload the same stuff you upload elsewhere with no changes), and the slow interaction speed and horrible user experience doesn't allow that at the moment.
IMO, having the GMS integration being optional - AKA you can download assets directly from the Marketplace as .GMRES/.GMZ files and import them manually - would do a lot to the user experience, and wouldn't require too much work fixing up the horrible GMS marketplace integration. You'd be able to use the My Assets menu of the homepage, the search feature, you'd be able to interact with the assets without any additional loading... the current integration doesn't stop anyone from exporting assets themselves or just copypaste them from a project with the assets in, so just keeping it for the sole purpose of security or piracy prevention or whatever just punishes legal users constantly while naughty ones are merely inconvenienced, and I'd personally have my assets on a marketplace where people would actually be able to buy them over a safe one nobody visits. The epidemic of permanent 100%-off sales is a telltale sign of how much people care about their marketplace assets in its current state.
 

TsukaYuriko

🌠
Forum Staff
Moderator
The consumer base being limited to GMS pro users means that you have a very small audience to begin with, while sites like Itchio lets you sell assets to anyone.
So does the Marketplace ever since it got out of its alpha. Only selling is limited to Pro users; Anyone can buy. Yes, even you, the one who's reading this - and you totally should buy things. Check out my... wait, I'm not selling anything on the Marketplace. T_T
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
So does the Marketplace ever since it got out of its alpha. Only selling is limited to Pro users; Anyone can buy. Yes, even you, the one who's reading this - and you totally should buy things. Check out my... wait, I'm not selling anything on the Marketplace. T_T
I must've missed that... I probably read the marketplace EULA when it was still in alpha and then never again.

...wait, you mean it's out of alpha now? xD


I think the marketplace also has gotten into a negative spiral where its "not worth bothering" status puts potential sellers off, causing customers to not bother with it because there's not a lot of stuff on it, causing sellers not to bother with it because there's no customers, and so on.
 

Andy

Member
The last time I used the marketplace, I had to open GMS to sort of download the script I bought into it (I forget the details). I would much rather have just had a page on my marketplace profile where I could have downloaded the resources directly from the site. :)
 
R

Roger Robertson

Guest
It is too slow in the IDE. Even deactivating half my "purchases" does not speed the system up by much. Many have details above. Personally I would like a web profile interface only where the "module" is downloaded and imported by myself into the IDE on a needed basis. This is no less secure than the current system. Perhaps the ability to license extensions with codes whereas registered users can't so readily share the purchase with others (to protect the sellers)

Bottom line current IDE way is, if not broken, greatly impaired. I web store download is preferred. Import as needed only.
 

Andy

Member
It is too slow in the IDE. Even deactivating half my "purchases" does not speed the system up by much. Many have details above. Personally I would like a web profile interface only where the "module" is downloaded and imported by myself into the IDE on a needed basis. This is no less secure than the current system. Perhaps the ability to license extensions with codes whereas registered users can't so readily share the purchase with others (to protect the sellers)

Bottom line current IDE way is, if not broken, greatly impaired. I web store download is preferred. Import as needed only.
This puts into words exactly what I feel is the biggest issue with the current Marketplace system!
 

FrostyCat

Member
Missing features
  • Downloading old versions of extensions (you should know damned well as a developer that newer isn't always better)
  • Bundling (offering multiple extensions at discount while keeping the individual licenses separate)
  • Dependency management (if A depends on B, ensure B is bought/downloaded before A)
  • More meaningful ways to sort+filter library entries (e.g. by purchase date, by genre, by tags, etc.)
  • Group licensing (allow entire team to use a package)
  • Allowing vendors to issue licenses at their discretion (e.g. due to a sale elsewhere, a support request or a processing error)
  • Blacklisting isolated GMS versions for incompatibility/bug with a package (had to do this way too often with JSOnion)
UX problems:
  • "Too many asset packages" slowing down the UI (this punishes users for buying many packages and hurts sales)
  • Modal downloads (huge issue for large downloads such as sound libraries)
  • Poor support for batch addition of files into a package (e.g. unwanted automatic numbers in prefixes, inability to set export options for an entire group)
  • Poor gatekeeping against packages that contaminate the resource tree with example material (makes them difficult to import)
Aesthetic issues
  • Poor contrast on "Ready for Use" label with GM8 theme
  • Poor contrast on "Update Available" label with dark green theme
  • Too much contrast on embedded Marketplace page with dark green theme
How to make it better (or at least acceptable)
  • Add better support for searching and filtering in My Library tab
  • Paginate in My Library and Package Manager to keep number of UI elements down
  • Make downloads non-modal or at least runnable as a separate process
  • Re-evaluate submission policies and start enforcing them
  • Make old versions of purchased extensions available for download
  • Allow vendors to sell to teams and make exceptional sales
 

kupo15

Member
Specific missing features?
...
..
How would you most like to see it improved?
I have a new feature request that I think it would be cool to have unless you have this option when you create a new MP asset. How about creating a new folder that is dedicated to assets you want to save to quickly access for future projects but without publishing it or making it public? I know I could easily create a folder on my CPU with the codes that I want to reuse for almost every project and "create existing code" but it would be more convenient if it was tied into the MP.

Essentially I'm requesting another subfolder or filter in the "My Libraries" that is dedicated to your created assets you want to keep private for future use
 

csanyk

Member
I have a new feature request that I think it would be cool to have unless you have this option when you create a new MP asset. How about creating a new folder that is dedicated to assets you want to save to quickly access for future projects but without publishing it or making it public? I know I could easily create a folder on my CPU with the codes that I want to reuse for almost every project and "create existing code" but it would be more convenient if it was tied into the MP.

Essentially I'm requesting another subfolder or filter in the "My Libraries" that is dedicated to your created assets you want to keep private for future use
I second this; it'd be nice to have a folder for my unpublished assets, and would be a great way to encourage code reuse.
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
How about creating a new folder that is dedicated to assets you want to save to quickly access for future projects but without publishing it or making it public? I know I could easily create a folder on my CPU with the codes that I want to reuse for almost every project and "create existing code" but it would be more convenient if it was tied into the MP.
Not sure I see the benefit of this. Granted, I'm not a Marketplace user. So maybe I don't understand the potential benefits. But it sounds like you want Marketplace archival / library services for non-Marketplace resources.

Seems like that puts unnecessary burden on their server, while essentially duplicating a feature that GM users can create locally on their own HDD. Like using a dedicated project file to consolidate commonly used resources. On setting up a free cloud account, or using Dropbox.

I suppose one advantage would be having the library features of the Marketplace, for easy sorting and viewing. But it seems a bit beyond the intended purpose of the Marketplace.
 

kupo15

Member
Not sure I see the benefit of this. Granted, I'm not a Marketplace user. So maybe I don't understand the potential benefits. But it sounds like you want Marketplace archival / library services for non-Marketplace resources.

Seems like that puts unnecessary burden on their server, while essentially duplicating a feature that GM users can create locally on their own HDD. Like using a dedicated project file to consolidate commonly used resources. On setting up a free cloud account, or using Dropbox.

I suppose one advantage would be having the library features of the Marketplace, for easy sorting and viewing. But it seems a bit beyond the intended purpose of the Marketplace.
I guess I can see that as far as strain on their servers. What about if there was a similar organized feature that was all handled locally? The main point of my suggestion was how convenient the MP feature is to import scripts into your project. The same can't be said if you use the "create existing script" feature because you always have to dig through your HDD to find that folder you saved things to.

I would love to be able to have a library of presets that I create and easily import the scripts that I plan on using for all of my projects that has the same ease of the MP
 
N

NPT

Guest
My only issue with the MP as a seller is the missing reports.

There is absolutely no history of what has been paid to the seller (and when) and to tell what is left outstanding.

We have been told in the past to go add up all of our previous payments in PayPal and and there's your answer. But that is less than ideal it should all be on screen in the seller console of the MP.

So after a year or two of selling (and multiple payments), we have no clue if we are near or have surpassed the threshold anymore, unless we spend an hour doing calculations and hoping we are calculating correctly.

Generally it just comes back to a lottery of 'I wonder if I'll get paid this month'.
This is negligent.

They are taking 30% of your sales, and this is the level of service they are providing. Completely unacceptable.
 

csanyk

Member
Not sure I see the benefit of this. Granted, I'm not a Marketplace user. So maybe I don't understand the potential benefits. But it sounds like you want Marketplace archival / library services for non-Marketplace resources.

Seems like that puts unnecessary burden on their server, while essentially duplicating a feature that GM users can create locally on their own HDD. Like using a dedicated project file to consolidate commonly used resources. On setting up a free cloud account, or using Dropbox.

I suppose one advantage would be having the library features of the Marketplace, for easy sorting and viewing. But it seems a bit beyond the intended purpose of the Marketplace.
I don't think you're thinking about it properly. See if this makes more sense:

My Library currently is an interface for managing packages from a repository with one source: the Marketplace. You see all the assets that you've purchased from the Marketplace in the My Library list (unless you deactivated them).

Historically, there have been various other ways to have Extensions or other types of asset packs. For example, you could just download them from a website, or you could write them yourself. It would be nice to have an interface to manage these sources, rather than dealing with loose files on your hard drive somewhere.

So, the idea of expanding the My Library to be able to pull asset packages from various repositories is a nice idea. Think of it as a NuGet or apt-get for GM:S. As a user, I want to organize and have a consistent UI for managing ALL the different assets I might want to re-use and import into a project, not just assets that have been purchased through the Marketplace. These additional locations don't have anything to do with YYG's server, so there's no additional burden on YYG servers; it's just add a new location, which you specify, which could be your local hard drive, or a git repository, or possibly other types of locations.

Even just the ability to see unpublished assets that you've created but have not uploaded to the Marketplace in My Library would be nice.
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
These additional locations don't have anything to do with YYG's server, so there's no additional burden on YYG servers; it's just add a new location, which you specify, which could be your local hard drive, or a git repository, or possibly other types of locations.
Ah, got it. I mistakenly thought the idea was to use the Marketplace as a personal archival service -- i.e., where users upload resources to the Marketplace for their own use.

I understand what you're suggesting now.
 

kupo15

Member
Ah, got it. I mistakenly thought the idea was to use the Marketplace as a personal archival service -- i.e., where users upload resources to the Marketplace for their own use.

I understand what you're suggesting now.
That is probably my fault for explaining it poorly. Csanyk perfectly articulated my thoughts
 
O

Oberon Tony TIGER

Guest
Well, I got so many assets that I have to wait for the list generation....

Why not consider spliting those items into types or pages(30 a page is just enough)?
When we are browsing one page, it will merely generate the page, isn't it faster?

BTW,I think a search is also useful....
Moderator Note: this post was moved here from another topic.
 
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MishMash

Member
I don't know if this is possible, but is there any way to automate a demo testing process and automatically send me an email if a demo doesn't compile or throws an error?

I have had multiple instances where an update to GameMaker has broken one of my extensions for whatever reason (to be fair, normally mostly due to my own fault for using something incorrectly, i.e. I had a ds_list_size on an array rather than array_length_1d, and somehow it wasn't crashing (it didnt work, I just never noticed it)).

Anyway, it's the worst feeling when someone on the market place either outright gives your product a bad review, or has to send you an email to tell you that your extension is broken in the latest version. You could argue that it is my responsibility to thoroughly test on each version of GM that comes out, but at the same time, if there was a quick service that just verified your submission with each new version of GM, that would be good!

Oh! and I believe extensions set all shaders to GLSL ES by default, even if they are HLSL. This has caused people to message me saying the extension is broken, only to realise it's just compiling using the wrong shader type.
 

ZeDuval

Member
I'm coming late to the party, I know. Anyway, two things:

1.) It should be possible to find an asset via the search if I know and provide the exact name. Right now the search is only based on the tags I guess?

2.) It would be cool if there was some kind of encouragement thingy that motivates people to rate/review assets. I know that from myself. Most often I don't do it even with truly great assets. I think it's quite normal in general that only a small percentage of "customers" do this after a purchase/download. But it's so useful to have atleast a few comments on an asset you're interested in. Maybe we, as a community, could come up with a good idea together, a way. Just one spontanious idea for a start: The possibility to give a special asset to only those people that left a review on one of your assets, as a thank-you-gift. Maybe you guys can come up with some better ideas. :)
 

icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
^ Yeah and sort option, took me 10 minutes to find a new asset. This implies showing the purchase date in the list.

Showing the icon of the asset would be nice too

The ability to categorise my assets would be nice too
 
D

Drewster

Guest
Slow to open.
Always seems more difficult than it should to remove assets from existing project.

Biggest one: when you import into an existing project, you get sprites, fonts, scripts, forms, rooms, objects, sounds, etc.. When you use resources from multiple sources and you already have a lot of your own, it gets very confusion to look at later. In particular, I want to generally try not to modify any of the imported scripts or objects, in case they are updated or removed later. It would be very nice to have some sort of "package view" in the IDE, that would have all of the items that were part of a specific package shown together. In reality I think most people would use that view most of the time, since, as I said before, you don't USUALLY want to edit the things that came with your asset package, and when you DO, you want to KNOW you are doing it.
 
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csanyk

Member
Always seems more difficult than it should to remove assets from existing project.

Biggest one: when you import into an existing project, you get sprites, fonts, scripts, forms, rooms, objects, sounds, etc.. When you use resources from multiple sources and you already have a lot of your own, it gets very confusion to look at later. In particular, I want to generally try not to modify any of the imported scripts or objects, in case they are updated or removed later. It would be very nice to have some sort of "package view" in the IDE, that would have all of the items that were part of a specific package shown together. In reality I think most people would use that view most of the time, since, as I said before, you don't USUALLY want to edit the things that came with your asset package, and when you DO, you want to KNOW you are doing it.
I agree with these. It seems to me that it's within the asset developer's power to create a subdirectory in the project tree for the stuff that comes with their asset. If you do that, then it's easier to delete the entire folder, removing the package from the project. But a remove script would be even better. Also, for assets that have a demo, I would like to see developers have a separate subdirectory for the demo stuff, and one for the asset's essentials. This helps a lot when it's done, but there's nothing enforcing it, so it's presently a developer best practice.
 

Artwark

Member
I think that unlike Unity, Game Maker doesn't require a marketplace simply because well.....nearly everything can be done within game maker itself.

I can see how its important in unity compared to game maker simply because Unity has a lot of particles that are a bit difficult to create in 3D so of course its going to help a lot. Since everything is done in 2D in game maker, there's no point in demanding particles as making particles in game maker is easier than it is in Unity.

However one place that the marketplace can be useful in game maker is obviously the virtual analog controls because damn.....the way you do it manually is long and too vexing.....

Maybe have it so that you can get art assets I guess?
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
One thing that bothers me a bit is that the only way you can share assets on the forum right now (please correct me if I'm wrong) is via the Marketplace forum, which only allows Marketplace assets. It possibly locks out valuable assets from users who'd benefit from using them... I host my assets on Itchio for a multitude of reasons (it not being completely dead, unlike the GM Marketplace, is one of them, but not the only one), and even if the marketplace WAS a viable alternative, some of my assets wouldn't really be suitable as marketplace assets anyway (the aforementioned 400-sound-effect pack being one of them) because they'd be unwieldy to import to a project... too 'raw' or 'loose' to use as resources instantly, too big and smorgasbord-y, or for that matter including things like PDF tutorials that aren't supposed to be included in a game build or locked away in an obscure folder you never open manually.

TL;DR: can has Marketplace forum changed to Resources-in-General forum? :3
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Nope. This is for GameMaker: Studio stuff, and the Marketplace is how we want assets to be shared. We're wanting to move away from trying to find assets all over the place, to allow the Marketplace to be the only place you need to look for your GameMaker assets. This will never happen if we simply allow folk to post them anywhere. I disagree that a 400 sound pack isn't usable, as that's totally how you organise it, either in multiple packs, or in a well organised resource tree. Doing it this way would also allow you to wrap in a demo to let folk easily hear them.
 

csanyk

Member
Nope. This is for GameMaker: Studio stuff, and the Marketplace is how we want assets to be shared. We're wanting to move away from trying to find assets all over the place, to allow the Marketplace to be the only place you need to look for your GameMaker assets. This will never happen if we simply allow folk to post them anywhere. I disagree that a 400 sound pack isn't usable, as that's totally how you organise it, either in multiple packs, or in a well organised resource tree. Doing it this way would also allow you to wrap in a demo to let folk easily hear them.
The stated motive is a good one, but let's not pretend that the 30% cut YYG is taking from publishers for sales on the MP is a large part of that consideration.

It's critical for YYG to make sure that the MP is the best way for GM:S users to share their assets with each other, and provides a premium quality experience. At present, it clearly "needs work."
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
The stated motive is a good one, but let's not pretend that the 30% cut YYG is taking from publishers for sales on the MP is a large part of that consideration.
It's not... I was assuming they were free assets - and its not like the Marketplace will give our Squirrel overlords bucketfuls of nuts or cheese anytim..... well, ever. :)

It's far more important that users can FIND the items they need, and if they are all over the net like they used to be, you just don't.....
 

csanyk

Member
It's not... I was assuming they were free assets - and its not like the Marketplace will give our Squirrel overlords bucketfuls of nuts or cheese anytim..... well, ever. :)

It's far more important that users can FIND the items they need, and if they are all over the net like they used to be, you just don't.....
They might as well be free, for all the sales I'm getting :(.

Well, as a GM:S user, I feel it's far more important that I be able to publish to the platforms that will make me more money/famous. Direct integration (via optional plugin, ideally) for publishing with sites like itch.io, newgrounds, gamejolt, etc. would be a hugely beneficial addition. Both for finished games and asset packages.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
You and me both :)

But at least I know it's not from lack of folk being able to find them. :lemt:
 

Surgeon_

Symbian Curator
@Mike And what about the majority of users who have Standard (free) copies of GMS? If they choose to create assets (even if they are free assets) they won't have a place on the forum to post them because they can't upload their assets on the Marketplace, and so their assets will end up scattered around the forum and the rest of the Internet, which is exactly what you're trying to avoid here. And $75+ isn't exactly cheap for a permission to post free things on somebody's website...
 

csanyk

Member
@Mike And what about the majority of users who have Standard (free) copies of GMS? If they choose to create assets (even if they are free assets) they won't have a place on the forum to post them because they can't upload their assets on the Marketplace, and so their assets will end up scattered around the forum and the rest of the Internet, which is exactly what you're trying to avoid here. And $75+ isn't exactly cheap for a permission to post free things on somebody's website...
Hmm maybe the mp should let Standard users publish assets, but only free ones.

But I'm not that worried about missing out on assets by people who won't buy a license. If they're serious enough to publish , $75 is a very low barrier to entry.
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
30% of zero still is zero, though... :p
....and I don't really imagine people wanting to shell out $75 for the permission to publish stuff on a site unless they expect to make it back within a reasonable amount of time, either.
 

csanyk

Member
30% of zero still is zero, though... :p
....and I don't really imagine people wanting to shell out $75 for the permission to publish stuff on a site unless they expect to make it back within a reasonable amount of time, either.
That's valid, but there's lots of reasons to pay for Professional beyond selling stuff.

But as a customer of the mp, I want a serious professional developer publishing stuff, not someone so cheap they won't buy a product, but expect me to pay for plug-ins to that very product.

As a publisher on the mp, I want sales to be much more brisk than they've been for me ($100 gross revenue in 2 years). I don't fault that the software costs money, but the market just hasn't hit critical mass yet. Probably in part because they haven't been developing the mp since it first launched.

I also feel like I'm letting YYG skim 30% off my sales to deliver missing features that they should have delivered (my mouse double click asset, for example). It's a very cheap way to get stuff done without hiring anyone.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
It's a very cheap way to get stuff done without hiring anyone.
That's a rather cynical point of view. How about this...it's an excellent way to let community members and professionals create features that they want without having to wait or petition YoYo Games to add them. This frees up the dev team to concentrate on things that the majority want instead of things that the minority want, and at the same time generates a little extra revenue for both them and the content creator. It's a win/win situation...
 

csanyk

Member
That's a rather cynical point of view. How about this...it's an excellent way to let community members and professionals create features that they want without having to wait or petition YoYo Games to add them. This frees up the dev team to concentrate on things that the majority want instead of things that the minority want, and at the same time generates a little extra revenue for both them and the content creator. It's a win/win situation...
Sorry, but I don't think that it's believable that an event or gml function to support double click mouse event is something that a minority of developers wanted, and that it should have fallen to me to implement it in 2015, 16 years after 1.0.

It should be part of the product they're selling, and that's why I've declined to charge anything for it. Plus it didn't take more than a couple hours to implement it.

I'm not saying that every asset in the marketplace falls under this category, but some publishers are filling holes that YYG hasn't, and arguably should have.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Seriously? You honestly think YoYo has the man power to not only create everything that's currently on the Marketplace, but maintain it as well? For years we've been accused of being a bottleneck, from when we were publishing to when we were the only one adding features. So we opened it up and allowed everyone to do it and easily share stuff, and now your accusing us of not making everything as part of the core product.

We can not write everything. It is impossible to make a product that does everything for every person. What you deem as invaluable, others don't. We have limited resources. Should we spend them all on what you deem as vital? or what we perceive the majority needs are? As a developer you want your needs taken care of - free if possible. As the creator, we have to balance everything, and I'm pretty sure you know this.

As to free users....well....frankly, if they can't buy a license, why should we let them? Seriously though.... it's also a much needed filter. If free users could, the marketplace would quickly fill with utter rubbish as kids who downloaded it the day before decided to publish their "ball" sprite, or their new game engine that lets you click things. Having to buy a license does mean you are taking it more seriously, and I think with the quality we have on there compared to the stuff that was on the Sandbox, it proves its working.

We already give away so much for free I don't think it's too much to ask they have a paid license if they want to sell and make money from it. Free users are of course welcome to consume as much content as they like.
 

Alice

Toolmaker of Bucuresti
Forum Staff
Moderator
Just so you know, @Mike, I personally don't mind GM:S not having everything built-in. In fact, with the pretty much non-existent encapsulation we have at the moment, it might not be a good idea to clutter the namespace with more and more functions and constants. In that regard, ability to choose only selected functionality, built atop elementary GML toolset, is probably for the better.

If only the Marketplace dialogs / actions weren't so absurdly slow...
 
J

jackhigh24

Guest
well id say your problem csanyk is your assets, as there not really very hard to implement in code anyway, especially the example you mentioned double click lol, that takes a minuet or two max to make, plus id never buy anything made by you just because of your blog and attitude, really if you don't like yoyo staff and game maker software as much as you preach on your blog, then why have you not gone with the other free option you said was so much better and freed your self from windows all together, im not keen on people who pray on others failing or mistakes to get them self attention, such as the bashing shaun and yoyo over the forum being late was a terrible thing to do just to get your blog more views, and the way you have tried to get votes to, im afraid i wont be buying any asset that jumps in on that incentive gained votes, so that will just alienate the marketplace even more at least to me.
 

Surgeon_

Symbian Curator
As to free users....well....frankly, if they can't buy a license, why should we let them? Seriously though.... it's also a much needed filter. If free users could, the marketplace would quickly fill with utter rubbish as kids who downloaded it the day before decided to publish their "ball" sprite, or their new game engine that lets you click things. Having to buy a license does mean you are taking it more seriously, and I think with the quality we have on there compared to the stuff that was on the Sandbox, it proves its working.
I agree to that, but I was backing up the request to create a general asset subrofum instead of the just-Marketplace assets subforum. Of course that if free users were allowed to freely post anything to the Marketplace it would quickly become full to the brim with... you know what.
 

csanyk

Member
Seriously? You honestly think YoYo has the man power to not only create everything that's currently on the Marketplace, but maintain it as well?
That's not what I said, Mike. I'm glad the MP exists, and that I have a place where I can sell assets that I've made. Not every asset sold on the MP should be a core component of GM:S, obviously. That said, there are features missing from GM:S that reasonably should exist, such as double click detection. Or access to a library of native user control widgets, like gtk. Or full vk_ constant support for all keys on the keyboard (and better abstraction of the keyboard so that weird idiosyncrasies between different keyboard layouts isn't a problem for the game developer to solve).

To the extent that MP publishers are releasing assets that plug these vacancies, it feels exploitative, particularly with the 30% cut that YYG takes from our work to provide the MP. What I mean by that is this: If you compared the annual revenue of a GM:S user working fulltime to create MP assets to the salary of a FTE YYG developer working on the GM:S product, I assume it's a safe bet that the YYG FTE is by far making more money for their work.

To be sure, there are many assets which are great contributions to the community, and not something that when you look at it, screams "missing feature, why didn't YYG do this?"

YYG devs and MP publishers should be working on different things. But, how are we supposed to know what you're working on without a public roadmap? I hate to bring it up again, I understand that YYG aren't allowed to publish a roadmap for the forseeable future... I know you've heard me on this. BUT it's a valid point that if YYG had some way to make it clear what they were working on, MP publishers could be assured that they are focusing their efforts where it is needed, and avoid duplicating features that YYG might be developing internally for future releases.

Bottom line, if YYG continues releasing new features in a timely fashion, and if they can make it clear to the public what's coming up in future releases, it will allow MP publishers to focus on delivering assets that won't overlap what YYG is delivering.

As to free users....well....frankly, if they can't buy a license, why should we let them? Seriously though.... it's also a much needed filter. If free users could, the marketplace would quickly fill with utter rubbish as kids who downloaded it the day before decided to publish their "ball" sprite, or their new game engine that lets you click things. Having to buy a license does mean you are taking it more seriously, and I think with the quality we have on there compared to the stuff that was on the Sandbox, it proves its working.
I'm glad we're in agreement here.

We already give away so much for free I don't think it's too much to ask they have a paid license if they want to sell and make money from it. Free users are of course welcome to consume as much content as they like.
Definitely agree. here.
 
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