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Question - IDE Will we ever get a Linux IDE for GMS?

Discussion in 'GameMaker Studio 2 Community Tech Support' started by csanyk, Nov 2, 2016.

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  1. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    I have seen no announcement from YYG about a Linux IDE for GMS2. With all the talk of GMS2 being a full rewrite in portable C++, which would allow you to compile the IDE for other platforms, it has gotten my hopes up, especially since we have had Linux as a build target for some time now.

    I would really love to see GMS IDE on Linux, as GMS is the last Windows-exclusive software that has prevented me from making a full migration to Linux.

    I very much want to get off of Microsoft in my personal life, and I strongly prefer Linux to Mac OS X these days. After the way Microsoft tried to force Windows 10 on users over this past year, I never want to buy another product from them again!

    Based on the information released today, I'm going to assume that the answer is "we have no plans at this time, but that doesn't mean we'll never do it, maybe at some point in the future." But it would be good to have confirmation from an official source on that.

    And please consider it as a feature request. This is my #1 wish list item!
     
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  2. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    While it's now certainly possible to port to Linux, we currently don't believe there is a big enough market to support the effort needed to port, and maintain the IDE.

    Never say never...but.... There would have to be significant interest, and currently, we're not seeing that.

    But there is a Mac version coming if you really want to escape Windows.....
     
  3. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Thanks Mike for your response. That's pretty much what I expected to hear... I'm sure the Linux market is fairly small, and I think that your position is reasonable (businesses have to go where the market is) ... but it will always be a small market as long as vendors don't put out products for it!

    How do you assess interest? Is there a poll I could vote on? How do we make ourselves heard and counted?

    I'm glad you guys are going to be giving 1st-class support to Mac users, but I'm currently pretty disappointed with the lack of hardware options for OS X, and as well being locked into a single vendor, and this recently announced refresh of the MacBook line only sours me further on it as an alternative. It seems Apple have chosen to focus no the more lucrative iPhone/iPad business, while leaving their former core business to stagnate.

    I was hoping that since Linux and Mac OS X are both UNIX-based, it wouldn't necessarily be a lot of extra work to create a Linux build, at least for one of the more popular distros, like Ubuntu or Mint. I'll continue to hope ;)
     
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  4. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    Yeah, I get you... the new Mac is incredibly expensive. MacMini's are still pretty cheap though - especially second hand ones.

    We'd need a sizable list of folk who would use a Linux IDE, and not just a list of folk who expect to just use it for free (as many Linux folk seem to). Yes Poll would be a good way to start.

    Porting to any platform is a sizeable effort, but supporting that platform is where the real effort and cost lies.
     
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  5. Rukiri

    Rukiri Member

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    If you won't make a dedicated IDE why not make sure it works under wine
    This statement proves how little you know the Linux community!
    They would gladly pay for software if it was available.
     
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  6. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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  7. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    I don't know how many Windows software developers bother with checking Wine compatibility. I'd suspect very few. It'd certainly be nice if they cared, but I would suspect that if they cared enough to test and support Wine, they'd just go all the way and make native Linux ports. Which I would be more in favor of.

    I haven't tried GMS2 under Wine, but that's *potentially* a workaround, and at least for the forseeable future may be the only way to go for GMSonLinux.
     
  8. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Yes, but it's a slim majority. 53-47 as of this writing, with 56 responses, and I can't vote because I created the poll, so it's probably about 50-50 right now. Which is a very high number, considering only 1% of the PC desktop marketshare is owned by Linux.

    If you're thinking you'd need a majority to justify supporting Linux, you're thinking about it wrong. We need only to prove that there's a viable, interested market large enough to make it worth YYG's while.
     
  9. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    On Wine: Actually... it may work better as we aren't a windows "form" but an OpenGL app... you never know....

    And it's not the % that wins the vote, its the number that care that actually matters.... But really... it'd have to be in the thousands - perhaps even tens of thousands. But lets see, your poll might make it worth trying to do some thing larger.....
     
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  10. CedSharp

    CedSharp Member

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    GameMaker Studio actually worked quite well for me on linux, using wine. You have to get the correct version of wine and install the right libraries, but it does work.

    The only problem I had is that the asset compiler would always crash when building a game. I could test them, but not build them. Sadly that's quite serious a problem xD
     
  11. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    Yes.
     
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  12. CedSharp

    CedSharp Member

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    Well I meant it as "unusable" state of the whole GM:S. If you can't even build your games, there is no such point as even going through the trouble of all the steps required to
    get it to work.
     
  13. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    I've never run any application in Wine, so I have no idea how hard it is to use, or what potential obstacles are. But that's a good point.
     
  14. CedSharp

    CedSharp Member

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    One of the biggest problem I had with wine is integration of directplay for gamepad, gdiplus wich always was buggy in wine. Also I didn't mention but the default skin of gm:s had no text, I had to use a hacky way to change the skin to gm8 because otherwise text is invisible and button unclickable.
    Once all of that was taken care of, there was the directx problem to tackle. that's where I realized that the version of wine wasn't the best, so I had to change. After re-doing all of that, it finally worked! Was able to test my game.
    Then, when I tried to comile, asset compiler kept crashing. I abandonned the idea of using gm on linux then.
     
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  15. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Well obviously. The poll is maybe an hour old, though.

    It's not just the raw volume of users. It's the percentage of them who are interested in #GMS2onLInux.

    Obviously, twitter polls are not scientific, but something that indicates that there is a strong enough interest in GMS2onLinux that it would be worth YYG's while to do some further market research would be a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned.

    Considering that Linux is typically said to hold 1-3% marketshare in the desktop computer market. If a significantly larger number than that of GMS users respond to the poll indicating their interest in a Linux port, that would be a pretty good indication that there's interest.

    It doesn't have to be 51% for the poll to show a "win" for Linux. It's not an election. If even 25% or 10% of YYG's customers said they were interested enough to be willing to pay for Linux support for the GMS2 IDE, that's fairly strong interest.

    I highly doubt that a single twitter poll is going to be enough for YYG to greenlight a project, but it's, as I said, a first step.
     
  16. Drewster

    Drewster Member

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    I'm actually pretty happy to hear that -- I think. GMS is the only reason I own Parallels. That being said, it works well under Parallels, so it's not a huge issue.
    I guess it really depends on if the MacOS version will be well-supported, or if it will be more of a "second fiddle", with features and updates coming later, after the Windows version.

    Being "locked into one vendor" has always both been the big positive as well as the main negative with Apple.
    Just curious about your other comments though -- when you talk of lack of hardware options for OS X, are you referring to budget-sensitive hardware options specifically, or just hardware options generally? If the latter, then I'm curious what you feel is missing from the lineup.

    While they're both based on UNIX, the realities of developing for both isn't that straightforward. If you use the standard sorts of middle-ware, you end up with lots of platform-specific cases and/or a UI that doesn't make for a very "Mac-y" MacOS app. However, I assume it comes down to time and money though, and Linux game developers make up a smaller niche user base.

    Perhaps this is what csanyk was talking about with hardware options. The Mac Mini is due for a refresh for sure. By the time you add the things you probably want, an iMac starts to look pretty attractive. That being said, there are a lot of used MacBooks out there for semi-reasonable prices.

    Well there is that. Apple/Mac users are typically much quicker to part with chunkier sums of money than are Linux users -- at least on the whole.
     
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  17. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    [​IMG]

    You were saying? :p
     
  18. CedSharp

    CedSharp Member

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    That's 75 votes, very far from the majority.
    I am so happy to see that at least 40 people want gm on linux tho! :D
     
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  19. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    According to the GameMaker blog:

    http://gamemakerblog.com/2014/07/26/gamemaker-studio-2-0-confirmed/
    They promised Linux support about 2.5 years ago, (blog posted on July 26, 2014). But it's not like keeping your word matters, as long as you change your plans. ;)

    Similar to when they mysteriously changed the site from saying "all current and future export modules", for Master Collection owners, to saying "all current and future 1.X export modules".

    To be honest, I don't know how they are getting away with either of these two examples, other than they are really good at not putting much emphasis on it.

    That's exactly why they were so quiet about GM:S2, recently before the closed beta, because they wanted to see less posts like this one I'm writing. :p

    It's not the end of the world, and it's not like it was intentional, as I don't know their motives, and a lot can change in 2.5 years. Just an observation or two.

    Case and point of this post: they need to be a teensy bit more careful, on what they state publically, as a part of their plans, because for customers and potential customers alike, will complain when it doesn't turn out exactly like they said.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016
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  20. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    You know we were both referring to the group of people who opted into the poll, right? Which is why I screen-capped the poll? Yes, I realize a sample size of less than a hundred people doesn't prove that over 50% of the people in the world want GM on Linux. I imagine 50% of the world doesn't even know what GM is, though, so I'm not sure the actual majority is a realistic aim here. :p
     
  21. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    You misunderstand me.

    I'm not expecting every GMS user to respond to a twitter poll that I posted in a week. I'm suggesting that the response to the poll will establish a percentage of users or prospective users who are interested in seeing GMS2 on Linux. This percentage can be extrapolated over the market that GMS is aimed at.

    Just throwing out some round numbers to make it easy: If 1000 people respond to the poll, and there's 1,000,000 GMS users, and 10% of the poll respondants want GMS on Linux, then we can surmise 10% of the 1,000,000 GMS users, or 100,000 people, want it.

    If 100,000 people is enough for YYG or not, that's something for them to decide.

    Obviously it's not as straightforward as that as twitter polls are not scientific. But you get the idea.

    Of course there's other demographics, such as Linux users who are not GMS users, but would be interested in GMS if there were a GMS on Linux. It's not all about the current GMS users and what they want, but whether YYG could grow their market by expanding to support Linux, and grow it by enough that it would be worthwhile to their business.
     
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  22. CedSharp

    CedSharp Member

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    Very very true. Linux started expanding a bit only recently because steam appeared on it, otherwise people are so used to microsoft apps, and mac is still the best in too many things,
    linux isn't a transition that people think of.

    I'm trying to move as many people as I can to linux myself, but there is just always that single app that doesn't exists on linux.
    In my case I have 2: Fl Studio and GameMaker.

    That's how it is, currently.
     
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  23. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    I'm pretty sure more people know what Linux is than what GM is, though. :p :p
    That's my point. Polling data will always be incomplete. csanyk is correct that there's always going to be extrapolation involved.

    Edit: ninja'd. You are also of course correct that voter bias is a thing, and that a large majority of people who "want" something will magically disappear when the time comes to put up money, hahah.
     
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  24. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    This is all a way of explaining that a twitter poll is not scientific. Which I already acknowledge.

    It's still a starting point. I'm not going to go and pay Gallup and Quinnepeac to do research for me so I can take it to YYG and have them still shoot it down for whatever reason.
     
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  25. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    I didn't know Sandy was one of the guys who left. There goes the reason I posted xD
     
  26. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Yeah... I did remember reading that, and was dismayed when I didn't see any mention of a Linux IDE on the new roadmap, which I've been wanting to see since I read Sandy's quote. Hence, my starting this thread to ask what's up with GMS2 on Linux.
     
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  27. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    ....Is that how companies work now?
     
  28. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    Maybe over on your crazy upside down side of the planet. Here in good old Merica, we take the company to court for failed promises, not the person who made them on the company's behalf. :p
     
  29. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    Then again you can say something without it being a promise. I think I used the wrong term. Unless he said "I promise" then it wasn't a promise. I think I just got everyone off topic.

    Now, where was I? I wouldn't mind a Linux IDE as a fun little toy, but I would still do the majority of my work on Windows if I had to choose. But that's just me...
     
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  30. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    It wasn't a promise.
    He's not CEO anymore.
    Lots of things change.

    Whatever. I'm not saying that YYG owe us GMS on Linux because they promised it. I'm saying, it'd be better, all else being equal, to see the IDE ported to Linux than not.

    If you don't want to use Linux, don't talk down people who do want it. OK?

    They're bringing it to OS X. I don't care myself, because I haven't used a Mac since 2011, and the last new one that I bought was in 1993. But I'm very glad nevertheless that they're planning on supporting the IDE on OS X.

    They brought us many build targets: HTML5, OSX, iOS, Android, Tizen, Ubuntu, UWP. I've never built for anything but Windows and HTML5, but I don't begrudge any of the other build targets, and I'm glad they offer them and are planning on bringing even more in time.

    GameMaker: Everywhere makes me happy.
     
  31. NPT

    NPT Guest

    Not wanting a Linux port and expressing that opinion, is just as valid as you wanting a Linux port.

    I don't want a Linux port. Not because I'm primarily a Windows/Mac user, but because I don't think that YYGs will recoup their investment. I also don't want them devoting expensive time and resources into such a port, I don't want an already overtaxed helpdesk to become even more burdoned.

    Porting to Linux has some inherant issues:
    • Distribution fragmentation, which distros will you distibute and support
    • Small market share
    • Of the small market share, many will not pay for software, they inherantly believe software should be free (free as in free beer)
    • Of the small market share, many will not support software that isn't open. Free as in freedom. (not free as in free beer)
    • Of the small market share, many who do actually buy it, don't actually increase Studio's market. For example all existing Windows users, buying the Linux version don't actually increase sales. YYGs sells one less copy of Studio for Windows but one more Studio for Linux. There is no net gain.
    • Increased Support costs.

    It's an expensive development and support project that will not pay back the investment.
     
  32. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    It would pay back the investment if it attracts enough customers. You're assuming that there isn't enough marketshare. You're further assuming that the only type of Linux user out there is a stereotypical bearded UNIX guru, who compiles everything themselves, won't run anything that isn't Libre or FOSS, etc. That's an outdated conception.

    Linux users aren't all just Libre software zealots. Far more of them are just regular consumers who know nor care a about open source. Linux is at the core of Android and Chrome OS, which have millions of users who aren't primarily concerned about Freedom or Gratis, and who routinely pay for apps.

    Some of your points have validity to them, about diluted resources and increased support costs. But the point is, if the market is there to support it, those costs can be absorbed. Granted, that "if" is something that needs to be proven, but don't assume it's not viable, or that if it's not viable right now, it will never be viable. Almost all of your arguments about small marketshare apply equally to Apple, or did 20 years ago, who have historically held single-digit marketshare. Yet selling Mac versions of software has been viable for innumerable software companies over the years.

    According to this NetMarketshare, there's still more WinXP users (8.7%) than Mac OS X users (6.27%, adding 10.4-10.12 together). Desktop Linux marketshare is not that far off of OS X (2.18%) although, right, there's many distributions of Linux. There's more Desktop Linux users than there are Windows 8 users (2.17%), right now, according to this data. As Mike said, he's not seeing sufficient interest currently. That could certainly change as adoption of Linux grows.

    It can't be that hard to write portable code that will run on many different OSes. Literally every successful open source project does it. Granted, most of them are not set up as business ventures, but it is at least technically feasible, and if they can do it, a business should be able to do it as well.
     
  33. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    Guys, lets just wait and see. A simple poll is a good way to start, but it is only a start.

    The IDE has actually run on Linux in the past (we did a quick test early on), it's not about can it, it's about is it worth the effort - especially to maintain it.
     
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  34. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    If I could get a Linux OS to reliably run gamemaker, I'd drop windows in half a heartbeat.
     
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  35. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Thanks, Mike :)
     
  36. Chinafreak

    Chinafreak Guest

    Hello,

    at first, thank you Mike to trying at least do something about Linux.
    ___

    The problem is that users are not using so much linux is because there is so many lack of good professional software and you guys could release a good software to linux to increase Linux community. As example from me, before I wasn't using Linux but now I'm using linux, because Unity released a Linux IDE version which I'm using almost only linux. But I'm still using Windows because of this damn Game Maker still doesn't have linux version.
    This is "why" many people isn't using Linux. (No, not only because Game Maker, because of lack of good professional software).

    Hopefully the simple poll would satisfy everyone. :)

    - Chinafreak
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2016
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  37. zendorf

    zendorf Guest

    I am a big fan of Mint, so I would love to get GMS2 working under Linux. Most important thing at this stage is to get GMS2 working totally stable and dependable on Windows. Linux would be gravy....very tasty gravy though...hmmm :)
     
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  38. CalixJumi

    CalixJumi Guest

    Is there any expected date for the mac version? :D
     
  39. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    According to their :)roadmap:), it's currently projected for Q3 2017. Subject to change, of course.

    By the way, YoYo Staff, thanks for bringing out a new roadmap. I really, really appreciate you guys doing that.
     
  40. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    If you plan to poll about the need for Linux support, I hope you include educational institutions in it, not just average end users.

    Computer science education is increasingly shifting towards Linux, and getting GMS 2's foot in there might be a good gateway strategy to wider acceptance. For instance, when I was at university, all the CS student lab machines run Ubuntu and virtually all of my course material was designed for it, even though the rest of the machines on the campus run Windows.
     
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  41. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    I don't know that YYG are doing any polling as yet, but so far my informal twitter poll is running abotu 55-45 in favor of a Linux IDE. There are 2 days remaining to cast your vote.

    https://twitter.com/csanyk/status/793922717720403968
     
  42. NPT

    NPT Guest

    Nice Strawman.

    The fact that I prefixed each catagory with "many ...." is pretty compelling evidence that I didn't assume they were the only audience.
     
  43. renex

    renex Member

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    Same. To use GMS I actually grab teamviewer and phone home :p
     
  44. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Twitter Poll closed earlier today. Interest in seeing GMS2 on Linux won out over I don't care, 57%-43%, with a total of 250 votes:
    upload_2016-11-9_17-59-36.png
     
  45. csanyk

    csanyk Member

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    Really, the demographic that the poll is targeting is GameMaker users and prospective users. So "I don't care enough to even vote" would include a whole lot of people, mainly people who aren't game developers at all, and have no interest in programming or video games.

    The reach stats Twitter provides for the poll are as follows:

    Impressions: 5,305
    Total engagements: 265
    Retweets: 16
    Likes: 12
    Replies: 6

    All of which were "organic" -- I spent nothing in trying to promote the poll.

    It's safe to say that the engagement rate of about 5% is pretty typical. After all not everyone who sees my tweet is interested in GameMaker or game development, there could be a lot of reasons why people would not be interested in the poll that have nothing to do with GMS on Linux being a good idea or a bad idea.

    The poll didn't have a lot of reach, it wasn't an official YYG poll, it wasn't conducted scientifically. Obviously this by itself isn't enough to make a case to YYG that they should have a Linux port. But at least it gave some indication that there is some interest. That 57% said they would like to see GMS on Linux is pretty good. And if you look at the replies to the poll tweet, most of them are favorable to seeing GMS on Linux, and only a few were not interested. There were some who wanted to see it on Mac, as well.
     
  46. David Richard

    David Richard Member

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    Just to add a bit here. I once tried to move from Windows to Linux for a few reasons of mine but making GMS work in Wine was one heck of a problem as in some machines, it worked while in others it did not. There was also a buch of problems with the .Net framework in Wine, on my computer, that was. Linux brings A LOT of freedom you do not have in Windows BUT, freedom does not mean compatible. So I resigned back to Windows until I see that Wine get's more compatible. I also sent a support ticket to wine concerning the problems I had as someone in the Wine forums could not do more than I did. I'll add this comment though:

    You cannot guess how many Linux users will be willing to pay for a software capable of creating linux games as easy as GMS is. AND this could open up a whole new market on Linux. My opinion is that we are probably underestimating how many people have Linux but keep a Windows machine handy on the side just for compatibility reasons. To me, it's worth a try, but I touch no cash from YYG so, that's not my decision.

    I still think this was a good question to ask.
     
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  47. Mike

    Mike nobody important GMC Elder

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    I've said before, if you build up enough people to make it commercially viable, then great. We can run the IDE on Linux (with a little work), but it's the maintenance that really kills projects like this, so it needs a good following and something that will make business sense to do it. This is a good start, but needs to spread to get real numbers now.

    The new IDE can be run on pretty much anything where there are enough numbers to make it worth it, but we can't do it for free due to the on going maintenance costs.
     
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  48. rwkay

    rwkay YoYo Games Staff YYG Staff

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    BTW To make this commercially viable we would have to be showing numbers of users in 10,000s not 10s, 100s or 1,000s (some will be trial users others paid) - but the cost of completing and maintaining a Linux IDE will be something of the order of several hundreds of thousands of US dollars a year so the market would have to support that.

    We are not seeing that level of support for it just now, so it is not in our plans.

    Russell
     
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  49. SP1D3R

    SP1D3R Member

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    Why don't you create a poll on this website?
    Not everybody uses twitter, so you lost a lot of votes...

    BTW: I would have voted for a linux IDE, but i don't have twitter and don't want to create a account just for voting ;)
     
    RichHopefulComposer and csanyk like this.
  50. zbox

    zbox Member GMC Elder

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    796
    Let's get the windows version consistently working first eh, that's the only reason I personally would not want a Linux port as of now
     
    Lonewolff likes this.
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