Hello! I'm a casual programmer that uses GameMaker, and I have thought that it would be a great idea to get a degree in programming games. However, I don't know if I would be able to learn the advanced side of it. I have thought of attending a free online class to determine my decision, but I don't know what would be the best class for me. What do you think?
-
Hey Guest! Ever feel like entering a Game Jam, but the time limit is always too much pressure? We get it... You lead a hectic life and dedicating 3 whole days to make a game just doesn't work for you! So, why not enter the GMC SLOW JAM? Take your time! Kick back and make your game over 4 months! Interested? Then just click here!
What should I do before deciding if I want a degree in programming?
- Thread starter GM Peter
- Start date
RefresherTowel
Member
Really, nothing is unlearnable. The question you should be asking is "Do I find programming enjoyable enough that I have the commitment to buckle down and spend as long as it takes to learn the parts I find difficult." You should already have at least a partial answer to that from doing some casual game dev. When you run into a problem do you feel like it's an enjoyable challenge? Have you spent a few days or weeks researching and trying to get something done yet? How motivated do you feel to problem solve while you're programming?
These questions are what you'll need to find answers to. If you don't find the difficult parts of programming "fun" then can you really guarantee you'll want to stick through with the course when it does end up getting difficult? I mean, we all get frustrated with programming at times, but it can be an enjoyable frustration, or the point where you battle through and solve it can outweigh the frustration of butting your head against the problem. If that's not the case, then maybe programming isn't for you. But if it is then you'll find a way to learn the hard parts when they come.
These questions are what you'll need to find answers to. If you don't find the difficult parts of programming "fun" then can you really guarantee you'll want to stick through with the course when it does end up getting difficult? I mean, we all get frustrated with programming at times, but it can be an enjoyable frustration, or the point where you battle through and solve it can outweigh the frustration of butting your head against the problem. If that's not the case, then maybe programming isn't for you. But if it is then you'll find a way to learn the hard parts when they come.
Prrz
Member
Very well said, I think this hits the nail on the head.
I have been programming for maybe 5 or some months. There are things that I have programmed, but not any games. I'll admit I have had incompetence a few times along the way.
Whenever there's a problem in programming for me, I want to solve it and make progression. It's because I overall enjoy game development, like someone that grinds in an old RPG to overcome a boss.
And what also motivates me, when I set my mind towards something, I want it done. There have been people, I'm not trying to pick on them, who have attempted to write novels, but eventually stop their progress. I don't want that to happen to me.
Whenever there's a problem in programming for me, I want to solve it and make progression. It's because I overall enjoy game development, like someone that grinds in an old RPG to overcome a boss.
And what also motivates me, when I set my mind towards something, I want it done. There have been people, I'm not trying to pick on them, who have attempted to write novels, but eventually stop their progress. I don't want that to happen to me.
Last edited:
BlueHost.gr
Member
please have in mind, that coding a game for fun, it has nothing to do with a university programming degree.
Yes, of course you should enjoy programming to follow such a degree, but the degree itself, includes many languages, mathematics, architecture, and many more.
It would be better to come in contact with the university and ask for the extended syllabus to fully understand what awaits you.
(advice by a Msc civil engineer - Msc programmer)
Yes, of course you should enjoy programming to follow such a degree, but the degree itself, includes many languages, mathematics, architecture, and many more.
It would be better to come in contact with the university and ask for the extended syllabus to fully understand what awaits you.
(advice by a Msc civil engineer - Msc programmer)
Mr Magnus
Viking King
The thing is there is no such thing as a degree in programming any more than there are degrees for drawing. There are a lot of degrees that *teach* drawing as part of the toolset, but you're never going to get a bachelors in drawing. You're going to get a degree in graphic design, or architecture, or BA in art, or whatever. Programming is a certain tool we use to tell computers what to do, but very seldomly will you *just* learn how to program and nothing else.
Common degrees that have programming as a subject can be Computer Science (the mathmatics of computing), Computer engineering (The physical engineering of computer hardware), software engineering ( how to design and engineer software), theoretical computer science (like computer science, but even more math), game design and development ( how to design and create a video game), and so on and so forth.
All of these will teach you programming to some degree, but will also teach you a whole lot of other stuff. Usually there will be some math courses, some computer architecture courses, programming language courses, some computing theory courses, and so on and so forth. While you'll do a lot of programming you're going to be doing a whole lot of other stuff as well, and a lot of the programming you will do may be quite different than what you're used to with Game Maker. Your first task is to find out *what degree* you want to pursuit, and from there you can get a course plan from the university, usually right there on the website advertising the degree.
Now, a lot of the courses listed may sound scary, and that's OK. Just remember that by the time you hit those third year classes you've been spending two years learning all the stuff they will rely on in the third year: if you have your head screwed on right and are willing to put in the hours to learn I don't doubt you'll be able to face any difficulties you encounter. Just takes a bit of elbow grease. If you're already interested in this stuff and are willing to seek out solutions to difficult problems and find enjoyment in that I'd suggest just giving it a go.
Common degrees that have programming as a subject can be Computer Science (the mathmatics of computing), Computer engineering (The physical engineering of computer hardware), software engineering ( how to design and engineer software), theoretical computer science (like computer science, but even more math), game design and development ( how to design and create a video game), and so on and so forth.
All of these will teach you programming to some degree, but will also teach you a whole lot of other stuff. Usually there will be some math courses, some computer architecture courses, programming language courses, some computing theory courses, and so on and so forth. While you'll do a lot of programming you're going to be doing a whole lot of other stuff as well, and a lot of the programming you will do may be quite different than what you're used to with Game Maker. Your first task is to find out *what degree* you want to pursuit, and from there you can get a course plan from the university, usually right there on the website advertising the degree.
Now, a lot of the courses listed may sound scary, and that's OK. Just remember that by the time you hit those third year classes you've been spending two years learning all the stuff they will rely on in the third year: if you have your head screwed on right and are willing to put in the hours to learn I don't doubt you'll be able to face any difficulties you encounter. Just takes a bit of elbow grease. If you're already interested in this stuff and are willing to seek out solutions to difficult problems and find enjoyment in that I'd suggest just giving it a go.
TheWaffle
Member
Basically, what everyone is saying is "it depends on you". I have been programming 40+years using many many languages .... BUT, it was NEVER my job, it was just fun. I love puzzles and programming is a puzzle (for me). If it is a JOB, someone else will decide the language and the project. As a JOB, you must be willing and flexible enough to switch languages and projects quickly. For practice, try blending GM,JS and PHP together as an experiment ... I started on ASM ..... now, language does not matter ... as long as the documentation is good. School will teach you about good documentation ...
So if I want to work on games, I go for the game design and development degree? And do you know a good free trial for those skills?
Thanks for the advice. I have to bear that in mind.
TheWaffle
Member
the actual degree to look into is media-arts degree... Think movies and commercials.... also animation in general. There is a reason so many game designers fail in the art department.
As far as free trial ??? Its an AA or BA degree... there is no trial for a degree. Just look for a good college near you (if you want face time) ... Years ago GM (Mark Overmars) offered a degree program, but I think that's changed. Most schools have a program that covers animations/movies .... that goes a long ways and goes back to my point that language is not important ... IDEAS ARE. Language is just another form of expression ... The idea fails if you are unable to express it. Art Degrees are about expression.
Last edited:
Mr Magnus
Viking King
A ) That kind of depends: What do you want to do?
Do you want to design games, be a programmer, be an artists, a UX designer, e.t.c. You'll need to figure that out and then go see what degrees at the universities you're interested in best fit that goal.
While there *are* universities that offer specialized game dev courses I'd actually suggest you go to the more general software development skills. Gamedev can be a rough industry to work in and actually doesn't pay all that much as far as software development goes. If you learn a more general degree you'll have an easier time thriving in other software development industries which usually pay higher and tend to have better working conditions. You'll always be a I'd suggest you do either software engineering or computer science. Software engineering focuses more on learning proper procedure and methodology when designing, creating, and maintaining software whereas computer science focuses more on mathematics and the theory behind computer science. In your case I think you'd rather want software engineering unless you're interested in the deep mathematics behind computer and computing in general. SE has mathematics, but you'll face a fewer number of pure-math based courses and more engineering and applied computer science.
I personally went with Theoretical computer science (or more literally "Computing mathematics") and that was really math heavy. However I punched my way trough to graduate and now could really work just about anywhere within the programming industry, and have enough foundation to easily transfer over to related industries like IT or administration or even research if I'd go back to get a masters. I technically happen to work in the game industry, but it's a small company that makes card games and solitaires and other fun small-fry games you could play on your phone in your coffee break, and I love it here. Once you get a general degree you can work in about any programming related job. A lot of the skills between languages and systems and frameworks and sub-fields within tech are development and easily googled.
B ) There are very few ways to "trial" university courses other than just knowing what you're interested in. Interested in programming? Great! Interested in mathematics? That makes math-heavy degrees a viable option. Interested in how to design complicated systems from the ground up? Maybe software engineering is your thing. Interested in the black magic that is actual computing hardware and how it operates? Maybe computer engineering could suit you. Interested in how to design (not program, specifically design) video games? Game design could be fun. Do you have any sort of basic artistic skill and are interested in the art side of things? Graphics design might be interesting.
This isn't something you can just easily trial other than just seeing what basic skills are being developed and seeing if they are compatible with you based on your own life and experiences. Like, you've been programming for a while and seem to enjoy it and aren't afraid to do research: that's a good sign. Go use that problem-solving attitude and go do research on any and all degrees even remotely within your interest.
And it doesn't much matter how much skill you *have* in these areas, the whole point of going to university is to *develop* those skills. Your paying an institution to teach you theses skills. What you bring to the table is the interest, dedication and ambition to *learn* these skills as you go.
It looks like a degree in software engineering would be handy for me. I want to think about it.
My next step may be to spend time with whatever I'm interested in. I also would like to spend a little more time with programming if that's the case.
Out of curiosity, do you think I can go far in life with an art degree? I mean, are there plenty of jobs involving game development with it?
Mr Magnus
Viking King
You'd want to go either in to something involving graphic design or animation if you're interested in the graphical side of things.
What about drawing concept art? And, as a degree, would that be its own skill or part of other skills?
Mr Magnus
Viking King
A concept artist can make do with any art-related degree. a bachelor's degree in art, animation, drafting and design, graphic design, computer-aided design or any other relevant art field would do.
I started programming because I thought that would be the only way for me to work on games. But you see, coming up with ideas for games is what I wanted to do, so it looks like I should spend time making art to see if I like it, whatever type of art that may be. And if I enjoy it, getting an art degree in something is what I should aim for.
I have one last question. Any collages you recommend for an art degree?
I have one last question. Any collages you recommend for an art degree?
Maths and Comp Sci will cover most of what you need in any game programming,. It'll also give you more transferable skills in other sectors if you decide game making is not for you.
RefresherTowel
Member
Be wary of this, the "ideas" guy isn't usually a good career choice to be aiming towards. Of course, you are thinking of getting an art degree for it, which is better than just aiming to be an ideas guy, but still, don't expect to be doing any work related to simply coming up with the ideas for a game without spending many years in the trenches doing grunt work (and even then there's no guarantee). Generally most people working at game companies want to be the one coming up with the games, that's why they got into the games industry. So your competition is going to be basically everyone with a very limited amount of positions that are possible (a big game company might need thousands of artists/programmers, but it'll usually only have a few positions related to coming up with the ideas for a new game and there are definitely people already in those positions).
Thanks for the advice. Yeah, maybe someday I can use that degree to draw ideas for a game, and see if anyone wants to work on it with me. I'm not counting on it though. But so far, I still think getting an art degree would be the best thing for me. Can you recommend any colleges for an art degree?
stardust9000
Member
It’s more a question of where you want to live and work for four years, as well as what you can afford/how much debt you are willing to take. I don’t suggest going into lots of debt for any degree unless it has a high chance of reasonably expedient repayment, and an art degree is certainly not one of those. As such, I am a big proponent of community college and public universities.
Before you start picking a school though, you should really spend a nice chunk of time practicing art first if you have not already. Draw, paint, make photos, sculptures, video, animation, etc. See if you can imagine yourself doing those kinds of things daily/practically daily for four years—although, keep in mind most programs will let you focus on one medium after you get your foundational studios done.
For reference, I have done 7-8 years of art school and am currently finishing my MFA (Master of Fine Arts).
FrostyCat
Redemption Seeker
As someone with a computer science undergraduate degree and over 7 years of work experience to date, I have some tough advice for you, yet again.
You will never be hired based on what you want to do or what you have a degree in. If you are ever hired, you will be hired based on what you have uniquely done and what value you can uniquely provide.
There is only value in executing ideas, which so far you have not done. Most of the literate population can post ideas on a forum and hope for collaborators like you did, so prospective collaborators ignore exactly that. Having pictures that look like they were done by an untrained teenager certainly didn't help, but even if you went to art school and drew like a professional, you can only put so much lipstick on a pig. Everyone has their own ideas, so why would they choose ideas from a stranger with nothing under his belt over their own?
If you decide that going to university full-time will help you get unique experiences and learn to offer new value, that is fine. University was also where I got that from. But the attitude you are taking towards it belonged more in the 1970's than the 2020's, and that is a problem. You can't sleepwalk your way into a career with just coursework and a diploma anymore. It takes a much more disciplined approach now than 30-40 years ago.
Unless fraud is involved, the choice of institution matters less than you think. Look inside a convocation hall during a graduation ceremony, and everyone having ever worn a cap and gown there has the same sheepskin. On top of that, basic principles like linked lists and transformation matrices are not more special at MIT than at UCLA or anywhere else. It is the opportunities you choose, the extracurricular projects you work on, and the costs you incur that matter. This means:
You will never be hired based on what you want to do or what you have a degree in. If you are ever hired, you will be hired based on what you have uniquely done and what value you can uniquely provide.
There is only value in executing ideas, which so far you have not done. Most of the literate population can post ideas on a forum and hope for collaborators like you did, so prospective collaborators ignore exactly that. Having pictures that look like they were done by an untrained teenager certainly didn't help, but even if you went to art school and drew like a professional, you can only put so much lipstick on a pig. Everyone has their own ideas, so why would they choose ideas from a stranger with nothing under his belt over their own?
If you decide that going to university full-time will help you get unique experiences and learn to offer new value, that is fine. University was also where I got that from. But the attitude you are taking towards it belonged more in the 1970's than the 2020's, and that is a problem. You can't sleepwalk your way into a career with just coursework and a diploma anymore. It takes a much more disciplined approach now than 30-40 years ago.
Unless fraud is involved, the choice of institution matters less than you think. Look inside a convocation hall during a graduation ceremony, and everyone having ever worn a cap and gown there has the same sheepskin. On top of that, basic principles like linked lists and transformation matrices are not more special at MIT than at UCLA or anywhere else. It is the opportunities you choose, the extracurricular projects you work on, and the costs you incur that matter. This means:
- Taking AP classes and exams (or your local equivalent, such as IB or dual-credit) to test-drive the subject and reduce tuition costs
- Participating in related competitions, events, and professional development opportunities
- Joining the local chapter of a professional/industry organization or interest group
- If student loans are involved, choosing a local institution and living at home to minimize the loan's size, and borrowing no more than 1 year of entry-level salary
- Enrolling only in programs that offer extern/co-op job terms, and work-studying year-round
Lord KJWilliams
Member
Well the questions you need to consider are :
- What do you know about programming computers so far?
- Do you know at least one programming language outside of GML, like C, C++, C#, ... etc ?
( GML is not a standardized language compared to C or C++ , which is a big difference )
- Are you talking about programming online, like using a language such as PHP?
Offline programming is different from online programming
- What ever your learning is going to change how you get something done, so what
do you want to do when you learn how to program a computer? Because that answer is what
will determine what your going to learn in your planning. People do not learn something like programming,
unless its going to applied to something.
Now if you just want to program video games on computers, then stay where you are with GMS.
GMS makes programming games easier than trying to use C or C++. Yes you can learn how to
program games using C or C++, but there is whole lot of things that you have to learn when you
learn how to do this in C or C++. For instance, memory allocation, is the biggest issue that you
will have with C or C++ and the fact that you have to learn how to use hardware that involve specific
platform things. GMS ( or any game engine ) takes that problem away.
Most of all, when things get more complicated where you need speed - you will need to learn
the dreaded assembly language of your computer ( e.g. x86 for instance ) and learn how to do inline assembly
with C or C++.
Please note, I have no idea what programming language your going to learn, its all about what you want to do.
Above everything else I have said, learning how to program is a lifetime experience, you do not master it -
you only improve as you learn how to use it, and it takes the patience of a saint.
This is what I tell the students at the university when they need to be told a reality check.....
( Late add: )
Now lets talk about Job Security with your programming career with your degree, if you had a Bachelor of Science in
Computer Science.
This only applies to people who live in the USA, because I have no idea about economics of other countries or how businesses
work there.
When I was going to a college in the USA, and going to a CS lab there for help - I met an exchange student / or another student
from the country of India. He said to me, " ...For the price of hiring ONE computer programmer for $60,000 a year at a USA business
( which is the salary at the time, long ago ), you could hire 5 Indian programmers in their country via overseas outsourcing for
cheap." There is a demand for programmers in USA but when costs come to cutting down local resources, this is
what most businesses involved in commercial software programming do ( or did ). This is what a company like Microsoft would do
( or has done ).
Need I explain more?
That's your job security defined.
As an advice from a professor in a business class I took which I remember :
If you discover before your employer discovers, that your value to the company is not worth anything THEN quit your job and find a new job quickly. Temp jobs don't count for much on a resume.
( end of late add )
Last edited:
Looks like giving a late reply is doing me no good, I'm getting more comments from people giving me advice. I don't need more advice on this topic though. Mr Magnus told me all I need to think about, so what I do next is up to me. Actually, now I want a degree in software engineering instead of a degree in art from what I was thinking about today.
I'm really, really sorry about the late reply, it's giving people the wrong impression of me, like I want everyone to do my work for me. Thank you, everyone, for your support. I have no need for this thread anymore as far as I know. Bye, and have a good day!
I will leave this thread open in three days in case anyone wants to say something to me.
Edit: Thank you for the advice, Lord KJWilliams.
I'm really, really sorry about the late reply, it's giving people the wrong impression of me, like I want everyone to do my work for me. Thank you, everyone, for your support. I have no need for this thread anymore as far as I know. Bye, and have a good day!
I will leave this thread open in three days in case anyone wants to say something to me.
Edit: Thank you for the advice, Lord KJWilliams.
Last edited:
Nobody
Member
Same here. I couldn’t think of anything worse than coding as a day job. But as a hobby, for me it’s awesome.
Sorry, but reading your post again something occurred to me. I'm talking about a software engineering degree here, but because you make game development sound like it's a huge deal, are you referring to being hired by just big companies, or any jobs that pay good money in the US? And do you know what you're talking about since you may not have had anything to do with game development?
How many years would it take me to do all of that?
Don't worry, I just have those questions. I'll be moving on soon.
FrostyCat
Redemption Seeker
I am talking about a computer science / software engineering degree here, not a game development degree. And I have a computer science degree.
Nothing I said made game development sound like it's a big deal, in fact it is not specifically about game development at all. I only said that if you decide to take the university route for programming, you will be running alongside seasoned intermediates or better, not novices. You will be left behind quickly if you prove lacking in math or general problem-solving, and your pleas for hand-holding will fall on deaf ears due to typical class sizes.
Also, when you are looking for a job or placement as a newcomer, DON'T just look in game development, and DON'T just look at the biggest companies. You can apply to game companies and the biggest companies, the no-no is tunnel vision. There are well-paid opportunities outside of them in other local companies and organizations. I went into university wanting to become a game developer, but the outcome of the extern component of my program turned me in a new direction. I ended up applying to and eventually working with a local web startup and the IT department of the university I attended. In 2015, I graduated as a web and metadata programmer, and have been gainfully employed for years since then. Had I continued to let dreams rule my choice instead of opportunity, I would be unemployed and likely homeless by now.
Like myself, many responders on the GMC have day jobs related to technology, but unrelated to game development. The fact that they are gainfully employed and stable, and still have money and time for game development as a hobby, proves they know what they're talking about.
Assuming that you are starting as a high schooler, this will take the entirety of at least the last 2 years of high school.
AP courses will likely be the last year of high school, but you can look at their curriculum and prepare for them ahead of time. Example: Computer Science A / Calculus BC / AP Physics 1 . Many universities also have "breadth requirements" (mandatory electives outside the main course of study, such as art or history when you are in a math/science major), so you should consider adding 1-2 of them to your AP strategy to try cutting them out of your first year.
Competitive events and industry events/groups are more like continual commitments for as long as they are useful to you, not really something you can put a definite time on. But 1-2 years worth of jams, product development and networking with local industry practitioners should put you on a competitive start.
The last two points are guidelines for choosing institutions and programs, so again not something to put a definite time on. But you do need to spend time tallying up your costs and apply only to programs that have a reasonable return on investment and give a substantial premium over self-study.
So I have to be aware that my jobs won't always involve game development. I'm fine with that.
After doing all of this, I really don't need a degree to get a job? Then what's gonna my proof of experience? A certificate from a program or institution you last mentioned?
FrostyCat
Redemption Seeker
Certificates and diplomas may get you through resume keyword scanners, but your proof of experience is always your own work --- the industry connections you make, the products you create, the skills you develop. And in this line of work, you often have to create your own chances and give them to yourself, before others give you chances.
There are places where you can apply without a degree, and there is a growing movement of companies that do exactly this. But they are still exceptions instead of the rule, and in every case they demand evidence of competency. A few months of work without publishable products will not cut it, and neither will a certificate or diploma by itself.
Slow Fingers
Member
Here's how it went for me:
I decided I wanted to go back to school to get my CS degree specifically to do game dev.
Worked my arse off at school, got into an internship at Ubisoft (as part of my degree), and a job there right away. Took 2 years and a half, full-time.
I have no interest whatsoever in going to work for a company that does stuff I don't care about.
You can definitly work *pretty much* wherever you want (within reason), and most definitely in any field you want.
I say screw tunnel vision, and just do whatever is of biggest interest to you.
I don't know about other studios, but here in town you pretty much can't get a dev job without a degree, except for artists. They go crazy for young, eager devs fresh out of school without much experience, tho, no need for a 60-projects portfolio at all.
I decided I wanted to go back to school to get my CS degree specifically to do game dev.
Worked my arse off at school, got into an internship at Ubisoft (as part of my degree), and a job there right away. Took 2 years and a half, full-time.
I have no interest whatsoever in going to work for a company that does stuff I don't care about.
You can definitly work *pretty much* wherever you want (within reason), and most definitely in any field you want.
I say screw tunnel vision, and just do whatever is of biggest interest to you.
I don't know about other studios, but here in town you pretty much can't get a dev job without a degree, except for artists. They go crazy for young, eager devs fresh out of school without much experience, tho, no need for a 60-projects portfolio at all.
OK! Thank you very much for your help!
With that said, now I have no need for this thread. I again will leave it open for anyone that needs it.
AGMDaniel
Member
Thank you. I learned some stuff from this thread! I'm very new to GameMaker 2.0, and I agree that Magnus gave good advice. I can use it as well. I also learned something from you, believe it or not: I also know people who wanted to write novels and quit, and I knew a girl who wanted to be a novelist and who succeeded. Well, not very well, but at least she was published and pays the bills with writing jobs. What she had they did not is tenacity; she kept going, even though many of the others had more talent and ambition than her. Your comment on December 29th about motivation is more important than you realize!