Discussion Veganism

[Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)]

Hello there!

I often get exposed to the horrors of the bio-industry through the internet. I've tried watching a documentary on that, but I couldn't make it halfway through, it was too shocking.
The biggest part of these meat, egg and dairy industries are pure hell for our fellow habitants of earth, the animals. The amount of cruelty is sickening. Also, it's very bad for the climate.

I know all of this, but I still eat meat and dairy on a daily basis.
While I am intolerant to cow and goat milk, and also gluten, I can still eat very well because gluten free bread, and sheep/buffalo-milk products exist and are easily available. Also lots of vegan replacements for products containing eggs and milk exist for a lot of food.
So I'm quite familiar with vegan food and vegan gluten-free cooking.
But still, that desire for meat stays. And when I'm feeling like a sinner, a McDrive is one of the most satisfying self-treats existing. Or a four-cheeses pizza at Pizza Hut.

Most of the time when I eat meat, I don't even think of it as being the remains of a living being that was tortured to death, it's become a habit, and I'm used to it. It's become normal, daily life.

But at times, I start thinking, and then I feel conflicted again. But still I have never taken any steps to eliminate meat from my diet. I feel like a bystander of a bully, that knows it's wrong, but does nothing to change it. This evokes a feeling of guilt in me.

Two questions:
Do you think being a vegan is objectively, morally superior than eating meat?
I personally do think so, even if I find the more... loud, vocal vegans to be super annoying.

Question tw2: Is it hypocritical to prefer one species over another?
If I was in a prison cell, the gulag in Silberia for months, and they'd give me dog food, I wouldn't be able to eat it. Dogs are my favourite animals. But they present bacon, and it will have disappeared in tw2 seconds.
Pigs have a lot of feelings, and can feel a lot of attachement and love towards humans, just like dogs. What makes them different?

Let's discuss this in a respectful way.

 

[Bearman_18]

"Do you think being a vegan is objectively, morally superior than eating meat?"
I don't. I think morality is a human concept, and that applies strictly to and for humans. I think you should treat your fellow humans right, and animals and nature only need to be protected insofar as it helps humans. That said, I oppose cruelty to animals. I don't really care about the animals, but it can't be good for the minds of the people being cruel to the animals. But if you gotta eat, and animal cruelty is your only option, then so be it.

"Is it hypocritical to prefer one species over another?"
Not necessarily, but it can be. Hypocrisy inherently involves a lie. If you are at least honest about which species you prefer, you aren't a hypocrite.
I prefer humans.

Basically, my belief is that you should put your own species first and last. Keep a dog because it can help you, keep cows because the protein is healthy. If we met an alien species of equal or greater intelligence, and we entered a war, I would side with humans unconditionally. After all, I am a human.

That said, I think animals which are treated better are better to eat. Ever had teriyaki beef? It tastes awesome, and from what I heard, those cows get massages and beer. Lol.

Lastly, I do appreciate your sympathy to animals, and I think you should do what you think is best. If that means not eating meat, then don't. But put yourself first. Make sure you're still getting all the nutrients you need. I care more about you as an individual human than all of animal kind combined. That desire for meat exists because your body knows better than you. If you think "I don't know what's in carrots, but I feel like I need one", then eat carrots!

I love these thread you've started, btw.

 

[Desert Dog]

That said, I think animals which are treated better are better to eat. Ever had teriyaki beef? It tastes awesome, and from what I heard, those cows get massages and beer. Lol.

I think you're thinking of Wagyu beef; Teriyaki is just a style of cooking, or more rather the sauce associated with it.

Not sure if I can contribute much to the topic of veganism specifically; but definitely think it's great if people think more about what the food is that they're eating, and where it's come from, etc. E.g. don't just buy a steak next time; buy some chicken or pig hearts or something, give them a stir fry. If you're really adventurous, you can go with some duck blood with your noodles, or boil up some chicken feet.

 

[Mk.2]

If we met an alien species of equal or greater intelligence, and we entered a war, I would side with humans unconditionally. After all, I am a human.

This thread is making me hungry for aliens.

 

[woods]

If I was in a prison cell, the gulag in Silberia for months, and they'd give me dog food, I wouldn't be able to eat it Dogs are my favourite animals

if you went basically 2 months with little to no fuel, im pretty sure you wouldnt care what it was they were giving you..
sidenote: dogfood is the food they give to dogs, not the dog themselves... also, alot of dogfood is more healthy for us than the garbage we put in our bellies and call good. //think McDonalds


90% druid and 100% heathen
i am an animal lover and also a carnivore.
look to the wild and you will find the "natural order of things" //think food-chain
i believe in free range food as well.. //not to fond of the idea of stacks of cages producing slaughter fodder


most non-meat eaters ive come across are frail, under nourished, and almost sickly(most but not all)
our bodies require x amount of different sustenance.
if we "love these cute lil animals so much and its so cruel to eat them" ..we need to find other sources of our required fuels.


we raise livestock for food and we keep pets...
if the situation becomes so dire, and we are starving top death, and have eaten our grains, and our livestock, we will eat our pets, and then finally eachother //think donner party

Is it hypocritical to prefer one species over another?

personal preference is not hypocritical
i prefer venison(deer meat) over bear. // that is the same thing as i prefer the color green over blue

 

[otterZ]

But at times, I start thinking, and then I feel conflicted again. But still I have never taken any steps to eliminate meat from my diet. I feel like a bystander of a bully, that knows it's wrong, but does nothing to change it. This evokes a feeling of guilt in me.

I understand this feeling. I am conflicted too because I feel bad about how animals are treated in modern day farming, and let's face it - how many people can afford grass fed beef and wild caught Norwegian salmon every day? Plus, 'free range' sometimes doesn't mean what we'd imagine to be free range. I had grass fed beef yesterday coincidentally as it was at a quite affordable price, but I don't know how those cows were treated and if it may be a commercial trick - like they feed them other stuff but put a handful of grass on top for good measure lol. That would take time to research.

Plus I admit, I would miss chorizo, rack of ribs, pork chops and steak with peppercorn sauce so much. Just being honest here.

One thing I did do though is halve the amount of meat I consume. Like if I make a curry I will add coconut milk and nuts and seeds for protein and just half the amount of meat. I double up on veggies to make it more filling. It is not going to change the world but at least it is something.

I try and buy eggs from real free range farms locally.

So, in a nutshell, I feel conflicted too, like many people - but it is easy to halve the amount of meat and add protein rich ingredients, like beans, seeds, nuts etc. This saves money too, especially if ordering nuts, seeds, dried beans etc in bulk. I order them online.

My cousins are vegetarians and they kind of liked the idea that at least some animals are not consumed through this action. Not sure how this would sound to some other vegetarians / vegans though. Could be like . . . 'I'm not a fully fledged serial killer anymore, as I have halved my yearly victims' lol.

 

[Tthecreator]

You know, I am sure that in 100 years we will look back at today thinking we were al barbarish murderers for killing animals. I expect alternatives to have become so tasty, healthy and cheap that killing an animal would be absolutely out of the question in future culture. But that's more of a prediction that a moral answer.

I think that humans are human and if they make a choice they will do whatever to validate our choice. This also counts for meat. Because this is such a big part of our culture, we feel like we have to defend our position when we get asked about it. So the arguments follow the choice instead of the choice being a consequence of careful deliberation. That's just human nature unfortunately.
That leads me to some pretty bad arguments I've heard against veganism. I once was talking with a guy who said he "ate meat because it was essential to his health". That's not an argument that I can get mad about towards everyone, but at that time I had to hold in the urge to say "so that is why you go to burger king twice a week". This is a good case of bringing up a secondary argument. A primary argument is an argument that you actually care about with every fiber of your body. A secondary argument is one that helps you state your case, but you don't necessarily believe in yourself. The real argument may be "I don't actually give a damn about climate change and animal welfare and I am accustomed to the taste", which is not one that looks good in an argument. So people will call out secondary arguments.
@Bearman_18 This is also where I disagree that hypocrisy needs a lie. People may bring up secondary arguments in one place and then ignore them in another when it's being used against them. That would be hypocrisy but without telling a lie.

 

[Pixel-Team]

I developed a moral objection to eating octopus after seeing "My Octopus Teacher."

You will too.

 

[Bearman_18]

@Bearman_18 This is also where I disagree that hypocrisy needs a lie. People may bring up secondary arguments in one place and then ignore them in another when it's being used against them. That would be hypocrisy but without telling a lie.

Maybe a better word than "lie" would be "deception." Hypocrisy isn't always a bold-faced lie, but it's always deceptive.

 

[woods]

Hypocrisy :
the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel.

in other words
do what i say.. not what i do

i dont see any deception or lie here ;o)

 

[Kezarus]

i am an animal lover and also a carnivore.
look to the wild and you will find the "natural order of things" //think food-chain

Yep, couldn't summarize better. I was an agriculture and livestock management student back in 1996 and worked in the slaughter proccess. It's shocking at first, but you get used to it.

Our bodies require sustenance, yes, and may I add that we could pretty much live with powdered supplements and nothing else. Given they have the correct amounts of nutrients and vitamins. But you rarely see someone that just drink "shakes" and nothing else. Even less advocating for it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

About morals: well, if you didn't raise the livestock and left it in the wild they would face slower and painful deaths than they have currently. On top of it, plants are also living beings, we just don't feel empathy for a lettuce the way we have for a piglet.

About preference for a species: mate, let's say I have no quandries about what I eat. Maybe insects are a wee bit too much, but everything else is pretty much on the table. If it's not toxic and have a good taste, I would chew it you without a second thought.


Cheers!

p.s.: and damn(!), vegetarians and vegans are annoying... lol

 

[PinkySwear]

hi,
I don't eat a lot of meat since i dont like eating dead beasts, but i think its a good thing to reduce a lot the amount we eat. For exemple, if you really want to eat meat, i think it's better to do it only for certain things like chicken wings and ribs, for exemple, instead of puting some in everything.

After all, fruits and vegies are good without cooking and without adding flavors, the same does not apply to dead animals.. no wonder. (but of course..they still taste freaking good on the bbq eheh..)

 

[Sainterosa]

I generally reduce my animal intake because I do value life to a certain extent. I still have chicken in my freezer from 3 months ago, about to eat it soon (it's still good).

Edit: I also believe that vegans wouldn't save the world and having animals is going to always be necessary unless we have chemically/mechanically similiar products that can replace the usefulness of animals. In some instances if properly utilized livestock provides a great means to support vegetarian lifestyles by making otherwise unfruitful environments healthy (not just fertilizer but actual removal of veggitation that would otherwise dry out and be unable to be fertilizer without extra processing, they also aide in keeping soils healthy and retaining moisture in otherwise dry areas. Some people (science stuff), believe some droughts are caused by lack of livestock (sometimes meaning not enough can be worst than too many) in an area causing water to not retain in soil (creating dry river beds, pounds and creeks). But if they had a proper livestock (natural or farmed) it would overtime allow the land to be what it was prior to its dry and desolate states.