Game Mechanics Turn-Based Rule: DEFENSE

Kezarus

Member
Hello everyone,

So, I have a game that implements a mechanic % To Hit. When an attack is made by Character A to Character B is just a matter of decrement Char A ToHit% minus Char B Dodge%.

Concrete example:
  • Char A ToHit 70%
  • Char B Dodge 20%
  • Final chance to hit is 50%
Same thing as XCOM and Battle Brothers. The thing is that this mechanic is a little frustrating and not too transparent.

I devise a way to make it more clear, but I find it a little artificial. It is as follows: every Character generates on his turn start an amout of "Guard" up to a limit. Everytime he is hit, the damage first hit this Guard bar. If the character have no more Guard, the damage transfers to the health.

The character maximum Guard is based on Character Speed, some armors and shields. He will regenerate an amout of this maximum Guard per turn (still thinking about how much).

This mechanic is found mostly on card games like Gordian Quest and Grifting Lands, but in a different way.

I would like to know what you guys think about this.


Cheers! =]
Kezarus
 
wouldn't it make more sense to do:
70% chance to hit
if hit successful then
20% chance to block
//apply damage

as pretty sure just doing 70-20=50% chance to hit would yield a different (less accurate) result?

Guard mechanic sounds like it could be good, basically acting like a shield (Slay the Spire comes to mind)
 

Kezarus

Member
wouldn't it make more sense to do:
70% chance to hit
if hit successful then
20% chance to block
Hmmm, I know what you mean... but this is exactly the same calculation as the other examples do (XCOM, Battle Brothers). That's one more reason to chance the entire system. =D

I see that the Guard mechanic have some appeal. But I still find it quite unrefined. Like... I can't make an attack that is difficult to hit, but have more damage, makes no sense. And maybe it gets a little odd to see a character "regenerating" every turn... Still thinking about it.

In the other hand, I can make attacks that do extra damage to Guard or that do extra damage to characters without Guard (Sneak Attack...?).

As concerning other systems, D&D, GURPS and WoD use a "chance to hit" too. My main concer is if the player will not like a Guard System. šŸ¤”
 

Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
I like the idea, I've been playing around with similar mechanics myself (though my idea was that you have separate armor and HP; heavy armor gives you more Armor Points, which adds short-term survivability, but lost AP won't be healed so the armor essentially would be a temporary power boost consumable - also poison and such would bypass AP entirely, making them more viable against armored foes). In your idea, the defensive power would be even more fleeting than HP, so I suppose it's more like the direct opposite.
But armored characters being able to gain more defensive power sounds logical, so you might want to consider the maximal defensive value being influenced by various factors - for instance, characters with a high dodge stat could be able to build up a lot of defensive power, but take more damage because all the damage slips through, characters focused on defense would only suffer the excess damage. (Though how you'd communicate this system to players is beyond me...) (Perhaps being able to choose between dodging and defending could solve that confusion...? Dodging builds up power more easily, but on failure you get no damage mitigation; defending requires special equipment to be effective but can greatly reduce incoming damage)

Another thing this reminds me of is Way Of The Samurai and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, both of which has separate "life" and "balance" healthbars (where knocking a foe off balance would let you either nonlethally take them down, or instakill them regardless of their actual health). It's probably just only a superficial similarity to your idea, though, since neither of those games has any connection between the two healthbars.

Finally, Bravely Default has a defense system where defending reduces damage this turn and also stores up that turn for later, so you can take multiple actions - it's one of my favorite systems because it turns the defend action from directly counterproductive to an actually important part of the strategy. In most games, defending just delays the inevitable, while killing stuff means there's less threats you'd want to defend against, so having defending be a net gain in all parameters except time is an interesting twist on the formula. (BD lets you store up to 4 turns and then take up to 4 turns at once; you can even take turns in advance but then you will be unable to take actions until you're back at quo)

Inspirational ramblings aside, there's a bunch of other things worth thinking about...
  • Random systems can potentially produce infinite misses, your system would have misses "exhausted" after enough attacks are launched. I suppose you could argue that's more realistic, but it's good to keep it in mind when balancing things. (The other way around also applies - given enough regeneration, a character can become completely untouchable)
  • This also means that multiple characters ganging up on a single target can expend all their dodgeability, for a series of guaranteed hits. Not sure about the implications of that gameplaywise, depends on your game. Perhaps recovering defensive power after being hit could help balance rushdowns; your "luck" is spent if you dodge enough hits, but once you get hit, you get some karma to offset the damage again.
  • Framing the defensive power as stamina could make its purpose more clear, in this day where everyone is aware of Dodgeroll Souls; having it also be consumed by offensive actions could help balance it out (defending to regen more stamina rather than attacking serves a purpose depending on situation)
  • Faster, weaker attacks could deal more damage to Defensive Power than HP, as a balancing factor (the idea is that it's easier to hit with that kind of attack, so they more easily tear through your defenses).
  • Just like in that armor idea I mentioned above, damage through ailments would ignore dodge/defensive power entirely, making them safe bets even if they're slower than direct damage.
 

Jase217

Member
If you have an attack that acts something like a machine gun, or many rapid attacks acting as one attack. Please please make that attack act as multiple, each projectile having a percent chance to hit. I think it's dumb that in XCOM you have a heavy shoot a whole volley and they all either hit, or miss.
 

Kezarus

Member
In your idea, the defensive power would be even more fleeting than HP, so I suppose it's more like the direct opposite.
Yeah, Guard would regenerate every character turn start. On top of that we have Ward(a magic barrier) and Armor(a damage mitigation mechanic). Works like this:
  • Layered Defenses:
    • If Guard > 0
      • Damages Guard
    • If Ward > 0
      • Damages Ward
    • If Armor > 0
      • Reduces the Damage
    • Damages Health

Another thing this reminds me of is Way Of The Samurai and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, both of which has separate "life" and "balance" healthbars (where knocking a foe off balance would let you either nonlethally take them down, or instakill them regardless of their actual health). It's probably just only a superficial similarity to your idea, though, since neither of those games has any connection between the two healthbars.
Hmmm, I didn't knew that mechanic. Interesting. I will keep that in mind. =]

Random systems can potentially produce infinite misses, your system would have misses "exhausted" after enough attacks are launched. I suppose you could argue that's more realistic, but it's good to keep it in mind when balancing things. (The other way around also applies - given enough regeneration, a character can become completely untouchable)
Yeah, XCOM have an internal system to make you MISS (if you are having multiple successes) even if you have a 90% chance to hit. I don't like that.

This also means that multiple characters ganging up on a single target can expend all their dodgeability, for a series of guaranteed hits. Not sure about the implications of that gameplaywise, depends on your game. Perhaps recovering defensive power after being hit could help balance rushdowns; your "luck" is spent if you dodge enough hits, but once you get hit, you get some karma to offset the damage again.
On my other game, everytime a Character was targeted by a Melee Attack it received a cumulative -20% Dodge. On our Guard System now, every attack will mitigate the defenses and the ideal strategy would be to dog pile a target. Thinking about it now, it will be a little more complicated to quantify it to the AI. Hmmm.

Faster, weaker attacks could deal more damage to Defensive Power than HP, as a balancing factor (the idea is that it's easier to hit with that kind of attack, so they more easily tear through your defenses).
We have faster attacks that do less Damage, BUT it consumes a Swift Action. Also we made attacks that are specific to the Guard (or the lack of it).

If you have an attack that acts something like a machine gun, or many rapid attacks acting as one attack. Please please make that attack act as multiple, each projectile having a percent chance to hit. I think it's dumb that in XCOM you have a heavy shoot a whole volley and they all either hit, or miss.
At first we are making a medieval system, with magic and what not. BUT my intention is to make something more universal like Shadowrun or GURPS. =]


I discussed with my brother all the rules and Skills on the Sunday (yep, we discussed all day long). Here is the complete "Rulebook" that we are making. There are some hard numbers there (no spread sheets for now), but anything could change. Check it out: the Rulebook.


Thanks a lot for all the ideas! They are fueling my creative proccess. =D
 
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