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Distribution The reality of game making???

M

mux3d

Guest
Hi guys.

I'm after a little bit of feedback about making "Game Design" a business as after all we all know that there is a lot of competition out there...

Can the average Joe make a successful game without massive financial backing?

My game is currently for Android and a few things that i have noticed (or at least my opinions) are:-
Successful games are more about distributions than anything?
Google promotes apps that have a high level of installs over content. - this makes it very hard starting off
I imagine this is the same as IOS?

I have spent £1000 on software over the years,
£200 on advertising
700 Hours of designing
135 websites submitted to.
80 social communities
For a game that i personally think is good as does everyone as does people from the little feedback i've gotten. Yet i'm very hesitant of any real success.

Any thoughts guys?
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Can the average Joe make a successful game without massive financial backing?
Yes.

Successful games are more about distributions than anything?
No. Or at least, not exactly. Successful INDIE games are usually more about communication and engagement of a growing fan base than anything else, imho. Distribution and marketing are also important, but a lot less to start with.

Google promotes apps that have a high level of installs over content. - this makes it very hard starting off
I imagine this is the same as IOS?
Not exactly... iOS is quite a different market to Android, and I've seen small indie games getting promoted by Apple quite a lot... iOS also has a userbase that are prepared to pay $1.99 for a game that they think looks cool, and so you aren't so dependent on microtransactions and ads.
 
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I don't think the "average" Joe has a huge chance to be successful making a game alone. I think a *talented* and *extremely hard working* Joe has an almost 100% chance, though. The cream rises to the top in the gaming industry, moreso than anywhere else I can think of. Gamers are incredibly savvy and enthusiastic about amazing games, which is great news for anyone with the drive and talent to make them.

In traditional markets, anyway. I wouldn't touch the app stores, personally. It might be possible to find success through merit there, but it feels like more of a crapshoot when you start making phone games to me. I haven't really looked into the mobile market though, so I could be wrong there.

@Nocturne: Love or hate his most famous game, Toby Fox is ten classes above the average developer. Looking at any indie dev forum should make that pretty obvious. His music alone would place him significantly higher than most devs... he is the sort of talented and hard working dev I was talking about, though. I knew he was going to be rich as soon as I first saw Undertale's trailer on its Kickstarter page.

Edit: But yes, it's true that "anybody" can make a game with almost no money in their bedroom and make millions (or billions?!) of dollars from it. They just need to be either extremely talented or even more extremely lucky, haha!
 
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K

Kobold

Guest
Short analysis in regards to today's standards:
1) Spending $10k, reach 1mio fake profiles and 10,000 real profiles. Split the chances of success by the amount of people advertising on a low quality target audience.
2) if you are lucky you get 100 people to download your product for $2 ...which generates $200 (taxes not included) of the $10,000 which you dropped on Ads.
3) Devs advertising their products to devs (?)
4) Advertisement over-saturation driving people off platforms (honestly, open your browser and get swamped with 💩💩💩💩es)
5) People with millions of subscribers are making less and less every year.

...compare the Now to Then:
- Cheap and powerful hardware to create anything
- Free Knowledge and access to any database
- The freedom to market yourself
- the amount of people who all want to live their childhood dreams

It's sucked dry ...we'are in the desert, pretty much :)

Edit: Doing this for fun is the only reward, if you ask me
 
Z

zendraw

Guest
one thing i can agree is what noc says that with indies its more about making a fanbase and communication. but i think making a cheap fun games is also profitable, valhala was it?
 
F

frog

Guest
What are you trying to do, and I will tell you your odds.
 
Average people can make big hit games, and those are the stories you hear. The cold reality is like every other creative field 1% make it and 99% will never make it. They move on and their stories are never heard... or they aren't big enough for people to care.
 
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YanBG

Member
It's like any other job: 99% work and 1% talent. I'd say a lot of research and study as well, rather than making the same games over and over again(unless you sold the first that is and the fans just beg you for more content).

You can't get any better without changing the execution.
 

The-any-Key

Member
Making games is like shooting in the dark. You often miss (any number of failed indie games). But sometimes you hit (Minecraft, flappy bird...)

You got a better chance if you develop 1000 small games than just 1 or 2 big games.
 
M

mux3d

Guest
I guess my concern is that i'm doing all this for nothing. I enjoy making games, but is enjoyment alone enough? Hell i get enjoyment out of drinking a beer and playing some pubg, so why don't we all settle for that?

Maybe i'm just after some success stories recently from the gamemaker community?
 
If you're talented and hard working, you'll succeed. If you're not, you have just as much chance with your local lottery. :p

Whether or not game development is worth it to you depends whether your willpower and aptitude line up nicely with your goals. Only you can decide that!

There are successful games out there. Do you think you can beat them? If not, consider making games as a simple hobby, and decide whether or not that's good enough for you. Good luck!
 
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kburkhart84

Firehammer Games
1. There is nothing wrong with making games as a hobby. If you enjoy it, do it anyway, whether there is a likely reward at the end or not. By the time it is over with you may end up with something you can market, and you may not, but you enjoyed it regardless.

2. There are many levels of success. Some indies consider making enough to continue making games to be more than successful enough. Lots of them are like that, though they have no big hits(and you don't really hear about them as often). "making it" doesn't have to mean getting a big hit, you could easily have a number of smaller games that sell a few thousand copies, and if you can repeat that, you are suddenly living off gamedev despite not having a huge hit.
 
K

Kobold

Guest
..."making it" doesn't have to mean getting a big hit, you could easily have a number of smaller games that sell a few thousand copies, and if you can repeat that, you are suddenly living off gamedev despite not having a huge hit.
...That's the easiest:
1) get HTML 5 module
2) produce a whole bunch of low-quality games
3) get shared rotary-traffic generating low-quality stats
4) present your robot-traffic to advertisers
5) place their Ads
6) make money

...but you will never gain the satisfaction of having done something worth talking about
 

kburkhart84

Firehammer Games
...That's the easiest:

...but you will never gain the satisfaction of having done something worth talking about
Is making a living doing what you love not worth talking about? Each person wants what they want. Some would rather make the "big one" regardless of how likely they would be successful. Others would rather make a living off of games regardless(though most of us would rather have both of those things if possible of course).
 
K

Kobold

Guest
Is making a living doing what you love not worth talking about? Each person wants what they want. Some would rather make the "big one" regardless of how likely they would be successful. Others would rather make a living off of games regardless(though most of us would rather have both of those things if possible of course).
Sure.
But flooding the market with something you wouldn't even wanna play yourself, isn't.
I have a strong opinion about this, haha... as one can tell.

Whatever floats your boat
 

cidwel

Member
Eh... I suppose could be better to prototype a game, and try to create an astonishing kickstarter campaing just to get feedback of it. Sometimes I go randomly in itch.io, click on some games that I think are good looking and curious to me and get their kickstarter pages and return often to check if the campaing is succeeding. And a lot of times I see good talented games not getting a damn because they fail in the communication, in the expression the game is telling to the public.

I think it is better to first try the market and dive in it only if you see good feedback that will help you to create a brand new fanbase.

See undertale's kickstarter to know what I'm talking about. It had a lot of chances to be a good hit and it actually succeeded.

You can prototype an idea while making a living and being independient in a part/full time job (yeah, 8hrs working and 4 hours working in your prototype). It is important to focus the development in bits that you want to show in your kickstarter, and then get some video editing skills and get creative. You have to spend as much time as you need to create a good buzz in just a trailer that shouldn't be taking more than a minute.

Unless you want to make games just for fun while working in something else to make a living, you have to gain a good feedback in steam/kickstarter/facebook/twitch (even!) if you are thinking about focusing all your time in your game.

TLDR: In my opinion, unless you create a really successfull campaing in kickstarter/steam for funding it/creating a fanbase, you have to dev games only as a hobby in your spare time
 

kburkhart84

Firehammer Games
Sure.
But flooding the market with something you wouldn't even wanna play yourself, isn't.
I have a strong opinion about this, haha... as one can tell.

Whatever floats your boat
Don't get me wrong....I'm not getting on that boat! I'm just making the point that it may be something that some people don't mind doing. My current project is far from that kind of thing. Of course, I'd love to make a living off of it when it is done...who knows how that will go?!
 
J

jb skaggs

Guest
Also how do you define games? Are you considering other applications as games? Such as a industry modeling game sold to industrial process engineers? etc Your market can be businesses or kids or pet owners and games do not have to be for fun. I use gamemaker in architecture and furniture design, I use it in restaurant and business design, and in marketing. So I use gamemaker to make me money not thru selling games, but as a tool that helps me in serve my customers as a business design consultant and as a wood worker.

I have also used Gamemaker in educational settings where I built virtual classrooms that businesses used to teach skills to employees.

While I was writing this I literal had a customer come into my coffee shop to ask me about could I create a simulation of a timber frame building maker. Of course I have game maker ;) I helped him and now I may have another project doing that. BTW I get between $25 and $100 an hour for these kinds of work. Of course these things also requires use of other software as well.

You see Gamemaker has evolved to the point it is very much a programming language useful for so much more than racing and shooting games. So can you make money from it? Absolutely. But it will take time, and an open mind to find your product and market.
 
And a lot of times I see good talented games not getting a damn because they fail in the communication, in the expression the game is telling to the public.
Can you think of any examples off the top of your head? I've been checking Kickstarter regularly for years now, and I've never seen a game I thought would get funded fail. There have been some good looking games that didn't make their goal, but the ones I saw were all asking for ridiculous amounts of money, so it wasn't a surprise when they didn't make their goals. :x

I'm always looking for examples, though! It's good to learn from your failures, but even better to learn from other people's, hahah!
True Valhalla practically became a hundred thousandaire doing this.
I can't tell whether that was a sick burn or not. X'D
 

Neptune

Member
This is merely my opinion. But if I wanted my game to get popular because it is good, and not because of some crazy gauntlet of advertising and marketing, then I would NOT try producing for mobile for starters. And I'd spend years slaving away on it, and once I know in my heart that the game is solid and I've obsessed over every detail for 1000s of hours -- then I'd do some extra networking for the cherry on top.
 

Lukan

Gay Wizard Freak
Me either.
A lot of his games are actually very high quality. But I don't think much love goes into them.
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
Does anybody actually love making ****ty html games for cheap quick money?
TrueValhalla is already mass-producing HTML5 games for a living. Whether you consider what he made "💩💩💩💩ty" is a personal judgment.

I guess those people might exist, but I doubt it's what most people are dreaming of when they start learning how to make games...
Most people doing a lifelong dream for a living can attest that what they really do isn't what they originally dreamed of.

The top lesson I learned as I matured is that doing something you love for a living never translates to doing exactly that something. Virtually every entrant to game development come in with a dream. I get that, I had one. But when some of them happily drop everything and go entrepreneurial, on top of it they suddenly find themselves having to handle accountancy, law, HR, customer relations, marketing, publishing and politics. Often these factors denature what the dream originally constituted instead of complementing it. Prepared entrants adjust their expectations well ahead of time and survive. Unprepared entrants fail to anticipate the added burdens and crack under the weight of their expectations.

It's better to fall in love with a living that already has expected baggage attached, than to add unexpected baggage to a living you're already in love with but doesn't yet exist.

This is merely my opinion. But if I wanted my game to get popular because it is good, and not because of some crazy gauntlet of advertising and marketing, then I would NOT try producing for mobile for starters. And I'd spend years slaving away on it, and once I know in my heart that the game is solid and I've obsessed over every detail for 1000s of hours -- then I'd do some extra networking for the cherry on top.
You can live with those aspirations as long as you remain hobbyist and feed the hobby with another means of income. But as soon as you flip the professional switch, your sole focus is getting it out to market as soon as you can and making as much sales as possible. The upkeep clock is ticking. There's no place for sentiments like "knowing in my heart that the game is solid" or "not because of some crazy gauntlet of advertising and marketing" anymore. This is one of many compromises that professional game developers have to make that hobbyists don't necessarily have to.

Me either.
A lot of his games are actually very high quality. But I don't think much love goes into them.
He is currently making games at a clip of 12 at a time. He knows better than to allot love to any individual one in the pipeline.
 

Neptune

Member
@FrostyCat
Hobbyist / Game Developer / Professional Developer / Programmer / Web Developer
Doesn't matter which title you fall under... you either make **** games or you make good games.
If you're scraping by as a "professional developer" and its causing cheap content creation, then you should be doing something else to make ends meet... and not adding to the ocean of pre-existing lame content.
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
@FrostyCat
Hobbyist / Game Developer / Professional Developer / Programmer / Web Developer
Doesn't matter which title you fall under... you either make **** games or you make good games.
If you're scraping by as a "professional developer" and its causing cheap content creation, then you should be doing something else to make ends meet... and not adding to the ocean of pre-existing lame content.
Then perhaps you should check out what I actually do professionally. It has absolutely nothing to do with games. That's the point of my choice, being a hobbyist game developer instead of professional.

One of the liberties that hobbyist game developers can take with their creations is "getting high on their own supply". You probably won't understand the fun I've been having over the Christmas holidays messing with an old unpublished turn-based strategy game from my earlier days. For a hobbyist, not everything done in the role has to be public or sold to be worth doing, you just need to enjoy doing it without breaking the bank.

With the exception of my GMC Jam #6 entry, everything related to GM I've published in the past 3 years have been extensions, written tutorials or commentary. Among them, with the exception of two paid eBook editing gigs, all of that work were free giveaways. If games are what your world is about, I'm a neutral addition to "the ocean of pre-existing lame content" you lament about, if not a non-existent entity.

And so here's another unique characteristic of a hobbyist game developer: the product doesn't have to be finished commercial games. But I guess I shouldn't expect this depth of thought from someone who has preconceived, absolutist views on the quality of a product class prone to relative tastes.
 
TrueValhalla is already mass-producing HTML5 games for a living. Whether you consider what he made "****ty" is a personal judgment.
That's the same with all games, hahah. If TV is happy with what he's making, then all the power in the world to him, since he's also making a living off his games. I've personally never played any of his work. =)
Most people doing a lifelong dream for a living can attest that what they really do isn't what they originally dreamed of.
That sentence is an oxymoron. :p
I'm not sure what the point you're getting at is, either. The meat of my original comment was that anyone making 💩💩💩💩ty html5 games for a living is probably not "living the dream," but working a job that only superficially resembles their dream. I think we're in agreement - because you can't make the kinds of games you want to professionally (apparently), you're working in a different field entirely, right?

For the record, I know that most people don't end up with their dream jobs. I think I've made it pretty clear in this thread that I don't think many people have what it takes to make money making amazing games. Those people do exist, though, even though your attitude seems to imply that they don't. Not all of us are doomed to choosing between feverishly pumping out garbage to stay afloat and abandoning the field entirely. There are a number of studios and individuals releasing incredible games to critical, commercial, and assumably personal success. I think Toby Fox probably has enough money to hire an accountant and take his time on his next game. :p

Maybe not the best example ... but: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nightkeep-metroidvania-rpg-fantasy#/

(I feel better now that I know that I'm not the only one learning from other's mistakes)
That's actually an okay example, I think. It's a great example of selling a decent looking game very badly, though. It looks like his game is very competent, but the "trailer" is just gameplay with a weird abrupt ending. Even if the trailer was better, though, "very competent" isn't "amazing," which seems to be the only thing that gets anyone's attention on KS and the like nowadays. People seem to be a lot more hesitant to spend than they were a few years ago, which is unfortunate for small, honest looking projects like that one. =(
 
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cidwel

Member
It looks like his game is very competent, but the "trailer" is just gameplay with a weird abrupt ending.
and this is why the vast majority of ks campaings fail. Instead selling a game that is basically a dynamic and interactive art content, people focus to show some bits of the gameplay. I do not want you to show me how do you kill slimes in a forest, even if it has pretty decent art. I need you to show me a world (unless is a 2048 game :p)
 
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FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
I'm not sure what the point you're getting at is, either. The meat of my original comment was that anyone making ****ty html5 games for a living is probably not "living the dream," but working a job that only superficially resembles their dream. I think we're in agreement - because you can't make the kinds of games you want to professionally (apparently), you're working in a different field entirely, right?
My point is that even when someone is working their "dream job", there will be undesirable additions and other substantial differences in the reality that aren't present in the dream.

I now work mostly in web development because my first work placement in university ended up in web development. There weren't many postings in game development to start with (1 game position for at least every 10 non-game positions), and I didn't get the gigs I applied for. As much as I wanted to keep the game development path still open, the web development side had the first move and kept snowballing much faster than I expected, and the income isn't that bad. I've been in enough business education classes to not choose love over bread. And so game development became my hobby instead.

For the record, I know that most people don't end up with their dream jobs. I think I've made it pretty clear in this thread that I don't think many people have what it takes to make money making amazing games. Those people do exist, though, even though your attitude seems to imply that they don't. Not all of us are doomed to choosing between feverishly pumping out garbage to stay afloat and abandoning the field entirely. There are a number of studios and individuals releasing incredible games to critical, commercial, and assumably personal success. I think Toby Fox probably has enough money to hire an accountant and take his time on his next game.
My attitude doesn't suggest that people who make a living out of games don't exist. My attitude suggests that these people get to be that way because they are willing to accept and adapt to the yawning differences between their original dream and their professional reality.

Read any autobiography or article by a game developer about their professional lives, and they're invariably filled with anecdotes of compromise or uncomfortable change. Things like loss of personal time, loss of creative freedom, ethical and moral conflicts, migration to management-level roles. Things that have no place in a dream but sit comfortably in reality.

Of course there is no shortage of people like me who settled on a non-game career and benched the dream as a hobby. Indeed most of my life is unlike my original dream. But on the contrary, my spare time gets to be closer to my original dream than ever before. When my usual uniform comes off, I get to be a kid again. I get to do it the way I wanted. I get to do it the way I used to, just with more experience in CS. None of that is an option for a professional. Not ending up in my original dream job ended up being the best thing that happened to me.

It's safe to say that the usual popular vision of life as a game developer probably doesn't involve red tape with publishers and app stores, payment processors and API partners going cuckoo, or eventually delegating away actual development to contractors to focus on a management role. But all of that is reality for a professional. If you turn professional without adjusting your dream to accommodate these strains, it's untenable.

This is what I mean by when people are living the dream, it seldom pans out to what the dream originally was. Even for those who do stay professional in the same field and manage to make it work, the reality is often a heavily altered, barely recognizable version of their original vision.
 

True Valhalla

Full-Time Developer
GMC Elder
I wish someone had tagged me in this topic when it was active. I suppose I'm late now, but I wanted to add that this was a very interesting read with good insights from @FrostyCat in particular. There's wisdom in his words and aspiring developers should take note.

And for the record, I really enjoy my work.
 
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Niels

Member
They say the road to succes is paved with amateur android games that look like child drawings and have adds plastered all over the screen...
 

Toque

Member
Making games as a hobby is fun. As soon as it’s your living it’s a job. Jobs are stressful and hard.

Lots of great singers will never be able to make a living at music......

I’m going to write a book and be a writer.....



It amazes me that so many people actually think with no training or much experience can just start making a living from making games.

My vote is no. “The average joe can not make a living making games”.

Of course you can find a few examples but I’m not sure they are all average joes.

If it’s a passion then you can try. What do you have to lose?
 
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