The GMC Jam Suggestions Topic

Discussion in 'GMC Jam' started by Alice, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. AverageJoe

    AverageJoe Member

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    When is the next Jam? I kinda want to get involved but have minimal experience with Game Maker Studio.
     
  2. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    @AverageJoe

     
  3. AverageJoe

    AverageJoe Member

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    Perfect! Thanks a bunch. I'll be graduated by then.
     
  4. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    I would be happy with either 2 or 3.
    Leaning towards 2, because previously the Handicaps didn't mesh well with the Theme or just felt like additional Themes thrown on top.
    I just think the current (1) is overly complicated, doesn't reward the previous winner well enough, and sets too many people up for last minute theme disappoinment when their favorite doesn't get chosen.
     
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  5. Zerb Games

    Zerb Games Member

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    Time traveling space pirates. Ooo and zombies.
     
  6. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Right now, I strongly prefer one theme only (option 2), compared to voted themes (1) and theme + handicap (3).

    I prefer it over voted themes, because theme voting adds a layer of complexity and, as last Jam has shown, doesn't necessarily result in picking the most convenient theme of all. It seems like last time it was: "Oh, TIME LOOP sounds cool, I will pick TIME LOOP!" and then "Damn, the game I came up with is too ambitious, I have to drop out, sorry guys!" Sure, one theme can also be a miss, but at least there is no voting overhead; and it indeed does reward the winning position more strongly.

    I prefer it over theme + handicap, because following both is inherently more limiting than following either (technical accuracy note: it could be as limiting if theme and handicap basically are the same thing, e.g. "PANCAKES" and "Your game must include a pancake in some way or another."). Dealing with a hard theme is already enough of a trouble; dealing with a hard theme and a hard handicap would be dreadful.
    (granted, I still haven't lived down the old 20th Jam with "PREHISTORIC" and "Failure should result in loss of something other than progress"; the theme significantly limited possible settings, while the handicap put great constraints on gameplay mechanics - it required a tangible failure, and some special kind of punishment unrelated to progress)

    Also, I'm not fond of theme + handicap because of aesthetic reasons. When one decides to reward a set positions, they usually reward top 1, top 3, maybe top 5 or top 10. Rewarding top 2 seems just kinda odd, and it might put some pressure to reward the 3rd place somehow as well (which led to secret words, hype words etc.). Also, let's not forget the reason handicap was introduced: it was because after GMC Jam 5 two games tied for 1st place, so it was somewhat logical to give both winners some kind of reward. However, now that we change the Jam format altogether, I'd rather go back to plain and simple one theme, like during the oldest Jams.
     
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  7. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Why not just have you (the organizer) pick the handicap?

    Even if we get a daft winner who picks a daft theme (which is overly limiting or complicated) having a fun (optional) handicap to work with could still make things enjoyable for those who are put off by the theme. Since you know the theme already you could pick a fun handicap that doesn't step on it's own toes.
     
  8. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    I suppose an advantage of having one theme is that we are all disappointed together. Shared misery builds community spirit.

    But yeah, I agree with you guys (dadio, Alice, Rusty). The handicaps have been somewhat awkward.
     
  9. FunkyB

    FunkyB Member

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    I'm going with whatever Alice thinks because Alice knows best ^^ But on a side note, the more Jams the better for me : ) I had so much fun last time. Btw, when is the next GM Community Jam?
     
  10. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    @FunkyB

     
  11. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Since there were no new suggestions for a while, I setup a poll to decide the Jam format. From suggestions here, I gathered:

    • theme only, voted from 3 picked by previous top 3 winners (like last time)
    • theme only, picked by the previous winner (like in the earliest Jams)
    • theme only, picked by the Jam host (like in the 1st Jam, because there was no previous winner)
    • theme picked by the previous winner and handicap picked by the 2nd place (like it was for a while)
    • theme picked by the previous winner and handicap picked by the Jam host (like it never has been)

    For now this is a multiple-choice poll, and if there will be a clear domination of some options, I will probably redo the poll like the last time, excluding the options that aren't as popular.
     
  12. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Honestly, I think we should just vote for them theme picking first and then the inclusion of a handicap. Otherwise you're just dividing votes. People who want to vote for the theme might want a handicap and people who want a handicap will have to choose between the different handicap options.

    This is pretty much how we got "pancakes" as our 1st Jam theme. A few people voted for all the different things but their votes were too divided to beat the united trollers.

    (I know it's multiple choice before anybody points that out to me, I'm just saying I think it would be easier to treat themes and handicaps as two separate options.)

    Edit:
    For example, I've personally voted for options 2, 3, 4 and 5, when the only ones I actually want are 4 or 5, simply because 2 and 3 are preferable to 1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
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  13. Shadow Link

    Shadow Link Member

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    Didn't chime in on the previous poll, but I too would've preferred #2: Theme only

    As for this poll, I like the theme being picked only be the previous winner, no handicaps. Handicaps especially made the pre-Jam games of hangman get annoying. That's also why I stopped following those threads and only chiming in to say the clock's been updated, and then just CTRL+F for my name or "countdown", "clock", etc.
     
  14. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    I'm sure the next Jam will have a big turnout. Bigger gap than usual since the last Jam + no overlapping with other Jams will ensure a much higher turnout than the last last Jam. Also, I'm hopeful from the most recent poll results that we'll see a return to the "Winner picks Theme" simplicity of yester-year.

    Should be good! :)
     
  15. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    To be honest, I've just came to hate the hangman game. It's gotten stupid over the years. It was a fun little tease in the first few but when they started doing it for secret words, handicaps and two themes we weren't even using it was just too much.

    Guess the word(s):
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ A _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
     
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  16. Juju

    Juju Member

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    I see you, pal!
     
  17. Zerb Games

    Zerb Games Member

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    Like wise! I remember that jam.
     
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  18. zendraw

    zendraw Member

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    power to the people! :eek::eek::eek:
     
  19. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Well, it's the theme. You don't have to dress up at a Halloween party but it's often fun to. The entire event is optional and supposed to be fun.
     
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  20. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    . . .
    You do realise that literally every single game in the last 3 Jams won BEST USE OF THEME award? Which pretty much means either they followed the theme (and how!), or somehow no one did?

    Really, though, if you state something like "top place holders often don't follow the theme or the handicap anyway", I'd like you to point out examples; as of now, I don't really see anything supporting that claim, and quite a few examples for the opposite.
    Also, I feel theme and handicap do matter, in that with handicap out of the way people seem to try to follow the theme more (don't quote me on that, though).

    From what I observed, with theme being optional people might occasionally submit entries that don't follow it, but in practice they don't score high, because enough voters take theme usage into account for it to matter. Also, with the recent Jams, one can hardly argue that "these are half-hearted theme usage attempts" with the winning entries essentially being acclaimed for their theme usage, among other things. It's like someone puts a lot of effort to their Darth Maul costume, go to the Halloween party, and then, what a surprise, they actually do get the prize for the best costume because their costume is actually really cool. I see nothing of "every day costume winner" situation here at all! >.<
     
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  21. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Uhhhh, my bad, I meant every single winner in the last 3 Jams won BEST USE OF THEME award.

    Also, the final results can be found in Discussion topics, they're linked to from the first post. Now that you mention it, I guess they could be more exposed; it's just that, as far as I recall, no one really mentioned that up to this point... u_u'
     
  22. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Even if this somehow happened that would speak more about the quality of the costume you produced compared to that of the "Darth Maul". If "Darth Maul"'s costume is so bad that he can't win a costume contest against a plain clothes Joe then he really shouldn't be winning it anyway.

    Almost every voter I've seen since the start of the Jams has included "use of theme" in their scoring or judgement methods. If those extra points for using the theme don't help you against somebody who scored zero in that category then your entry simply didn't stand a chance to begin with.

    Edit:
    Also want to reply to this:
    I have been testing, recreating and developing a project for 6 years now. Told to "bring my A game" I could recreate a miniature version on the first day then spend the next 48 hours trolling for kills. The Jam is about doing something fun and different. Doing the same thing I've been learning to do and working on for the last 6 years in a "mad" 3 day rush sounds like an average weekend for me.
     
  23. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    "I think that the results should be editied into the bottom of the first post in the voting topic (once determined of course)."

    I was meant to bring this up myself, but forgot. Yeah I think this was how it was done before. It's important to have easy access to all Jam results - especially the top 3 Winners of each.

    Also, would be nice to update this topic https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/gmc-jam-hall-of-fame-archive.2138/ to include all the Jam results going right back, in some kind of clear format, that isn't external.

    Something simple like:

    GMC Jam 1 (make this a link to the topic if possible)
    Theme: Pancakes
    1st Place: blah (make this a link to the game post if possible)
    2nd Place: blah (ditto)
    3rd: Place: blah (ditto)
    Full positions: blah (spoiler tagged)

    GMC Jam 2
    Theme: Blah
    1st Place: blah
    2nd Place: blah
    3rd: Place: blah
    Full positions: blah

    etc.

    Some kind of archive of all the Jam zips would also be great (I know that it's easier said than done tracking down some of those, but it would be sad for all those zips/games to disappear eventually). Ideally, there would be a direct link to all zips and/or a torrent link to all zips.

    Back on topic: Seems pretty clear that option 2 is way ahead in the poll. Why don't we go with that and move on to other Jam issues?
     
  24. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    As for Hall of Fame: yeah, I think it does need a solid update. I do have stored most of the Jam ZIPs, or at least whatever I could save (especially earlier Jams are pretty fragmented), mostly in a frantic effort to download the games before DropBox drops public folder. For starters, I suppose I could rework the tallying program to generate not only results list and spreadsheet, but also Hall of Fame entry and handy JSON file with all the necessary Jam data (games, votes, results) so that others could use these to make statistics of their own and present data in whatever way they wish. It might take a while to format that data for all the Jams, though (probably not before the next Jam).

    Also, it indeed looks like option 2 indeed wins in the poll by the landslide (getting twice more votes than the runner up), so for the next Jam, it'll be one theme picked by previous winners! I'm pretty sure that will simplify things a lot...

    --------------------

    Now that we know the Jam format, we can discuss voting format! In particular:
    • what should be required for a valid vote (currently: top 3 positions)
    • how the games should be ranked/rated (currently: strict ranking of at least 3 entries, possibly including all entries altogether)
    • whether there should be special awards, and what these would be (currently: Best use of Theme, Best Concept/Story/Presentation/Devlog)

    On that note, should we keep host-picked Best Reviewer award, or maybe have it picked in some other way, or maybe have other awards for reviewing...?

    (note that this discussion is related to what sort of votes people should cast, not the system used for tallying them; without knowing what format we decide on, the tallying system discussion is moot)
     
  25. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    You can't ask people to vote for the best voter.
     
  26. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    I dont think we do have a Best Voter category, I mean we have Best Reviewer. I mean reviewer is different to voting. Reviews are mostly writing compositions that describes the person's experience and opinions upon an entry he/she tried from different point of views. Vote is basically providing ranks of an entry... thats it. But I get what you mean. Its not a good idea to allow players provide best reviewer since its not reliable to trust regular participants on such criteria without the correct understandings and proper knowledge on reviewing a game. Then again, there is a slight possibility that relying regular participants to vote is like letting false or bad information into a book. Although most of the voting is base on opinions and personal appeal so there are no specific standards. Everyone is different to what they see on games. However, Failed tendencies we can see in a voting phase are:

    - People voting for a specific entry just because its from a friend of theirs (regardless of whether it is a bad entry or not)
    - People voting for a specific entry because its mostly their favourite genre and omits other criterias.
    - People voting for a specific entry because graphics look better than any other entry (regardless of entertainment and mechanics)
    - People playing only less than the half amount of entries to vote for those, omitting the rest of the entries (regardless of whether there could have been a better entry within the list)

    I believe that voting should be in the hands of a reliable user(s) for a fair count. I understand that freedom of expression for different point of views is a good thing, but there is a difference between well-reasonable information and bad information. I am also noticing that some users lack of effort (or interest) on voting due to other priorities like job, education, life-errands, etc... It would be great for users to allow voting more quicker and flexible. I understand that the Jam Voting Application helps that but its too basic and not fully custom to user preference. With those ideas I provided, I established several options for us to decide:

    - Stick with the usual method on voting, making sure the host only selects the voters that have done the voting phase properly and completely.
    - Only allow a secondary (exclusive) party to perform voting phase for more reliability and better managing on voting phase.
    - Changing the format of voting system so that voters choose only top 10 best entries while host only gets to choose Best of categories.
    - Changing the Voting application by adding an automatic score counter to rapidly get the final scores (this require score range for each category).

    This is pretty much my controversial ideas about the voting phase. Any doubts or questions, feel free to say so. I dont really mind. We here to provide the best arrangements for the voting phase.
     
  27. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    • what should be required for a valid vote - top 3 positions and short reviews for each (as is, it's simple and not too much burden on reviewers)
    • how the games should be ranked/rated - strict ranking of at least 3 entries, possibly including all entries altogether (ditto)
    • whether there should be special awards, and what these would be - I think it's nice to offer special awards. It allows many more people to feel some greater sense of accomplishment in a particular area every Jam. I do think it would be better if these special awards became standard/set. Anyone can always include their own "dadio's awards for jokiest game goes to" but those individual special awards need not be counted in the "official" tally.
     
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  28. Cat

    Cat Member

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    It hasn't exactly been my favorite either. I really enjoyed the puzzles, even if I was too dumb to solve any :p. What used to be a dynamic, interactive way to build hype has since become "oh look, more letters. huh."

    Previously, it felt like there was headway being made. There was an established direction. "A crossword puzzle? We should fill this in." This fostered more of a community spirit. People were working together to solve something. With each victory came a tantalizing reveal, and soon, another mysterious clue. Nowadays, there's not really any meaningful feedback on the guesses, because there's no real way to do that. There's nothing to do but guess random combinations of words. Due to the lack of reactivity, it feels like "yelling at the TV". As a result, there's no real collaboration. There are a handful of individuals who guess with each letter reveal, but for the most part, it seems pretty quiet. I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: In ye olden days, if I saw the thread on the day it was posted, then came back an hour before the jam start, I would have missed out on so much. Now, I'm just as well off doing that because there's functionally no difference. Nothing I can do or say will matter until the voting period, and even then, one theme usually has more than the other two combined, so my individual vote is next to useless as well. (And yes, I'm well aware of the "If everyone thought that way..." rhetoric.)

    Now for some background on me in case I sound entirely off base: I've been here since Jam 17 (I think). I participated in the Post-Apocalyptic Jam, and had a blast. Around a week later, I started college. That has kind of limited my free time. I still try to participate, but I don't check the thread as religiously as I once did. It's all just seemed sort of... dead. It might just be because I don't really enjoy the new guessing game, but being a human being, I'm loath to put the blame on myself :p.

    Now, I'm not trying to hate on any of the recent jams, nor am I just reminiscing about the jams of old. I truly appreciate all of the work that goes into each jam. So many people from all over the world come together every few months to make this possible, and I'm mighty grateful to y'all. These thoughts have just been stewing around in my head for a while now, and I finally figured, "Why not actually voice them, y'know, in a place where other people can actually see them".

    Apologies if this is too off-topic. It's only a day old, and I don't wholly know the etiquette surrounding this.
    Edit: it was a day old when I started typing. :p
     
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  29. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    I pretty much agree with you Cat. The puzzles were neat. NAL did a really great job on those. Now that we are back to the simplicity of ye olden days, with just a single Theme and a lot less work, I'm sure that Alice can come up with some puzzly fun for the build up/ reveal, rather than hangman. The current Jam surely does need some kind of injection of fun and excitement.
     
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  30. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Uh-huh, to be fair, I've got an impression that the puzzles were actually less fun for community as a whole, because if someone didn't have the knack for that kind of puzzle-solving, they were kinda sorta excluded and had to wait for others to give their solution. So while in the hangman game it feels like you kinda shout at the TV, in the puzzle game it feels like you just watch some show on TV; it might be nice to watch, but you know that the participants are having way more fun than you.

    Also, from the topic of the aforementioned Jam 17:
    And from Jam 19 topic:
    So, uh, it's not 100% certain to me that the puzzles are superior compared to the hangman game. As I see it now...
    + hangman game is simpler to play, pretty much anyone who knows sites like morewords.com can participate in guessing
    + hangman game is quite easy to prepare on my side
    - hangman game is apparently getting boring, and gives no feedback to the guessers; also, the clues shouldn't be too frequent
    - hangman game has that narrowing down tendency - if people guess all the reasonable themes early on, subsequent reveals just dry out the theme pool and making things stale

    + puzzle game is more interesting for participants, and people's guesses actually bring them closer to finding the correct theme
    + when designed correctly, each clue gives a new information and widens the possibilities
    - puzzle game excludes many people, whether because they don't have mad guessing skills or don't get some cultural references
    - if puzzle game is prepared in a specific way (typically multiple-tiered, i.e. little clues lead to the big clue at the end), it gives no partial "hangman" clues until the very end, further excluding people
    - once the clue is pretty much guessed, there's no reason for other people to give guesses of their own
    - it takes uncomparably more effort to prepare puzzles compared to the classic hangman game

    Keeping these things in mind, here are some traits of the guessing-game I thought of:
    • ideally, each new clue gives some additional information, but until near the end there are too many possibilities to dry out the pool of reasonable guesses
    • the game should be possible to play by pretty much everyone, in some aspect or another
    • the game should not rely on cultural references at all
    • if the game is to be easier to prepare, it needs some sort of repeatable format
    • it might be cool if depending on the quality of people's guesses they get better clues, or something?

    ...gah, I dunno, I feel like I'm overthinking this, and that we're going about it the wrong way; like making elaborate guessing game would overshadow the Jam itself. It's the Jam that's the point, not the hype. >.<

    Besides, weren't the coolest things from the Jam discussion not really related to the theme guessing or anything? Like Detective Pixel's interpretative dance, various memes by HayManMarc and stuff? And I kinda don't feel like it's something that can be produced artificially; it's just the sort of thing that happens.

    (it's not to say that I'm definitely sticking to the hangman game; I just feel like we need a better alternative to that than the somewhat excluding and time-consuming puzzle game)
     
  31. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    I hated the puzzles from those jams, they made no sense at all. They almost felt like meta to me. I prefer the hangman over that.

    However, I had this idea in past year in case if I ever win first on the jam. I would do an online game where players would roam in a dark virtual city, scavenging for clues that may reveal the theme, and of course offer that as an exception for guessing my theme. Although most of you are too lazy to even do that (you guys dont have that jam commitment like I do Y-Y)
     
  32. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    Ya no worries Alice. the puzzles would take too much effort in practice. I think NAL just had a nack (and love) for that kind of thing so it worked ok in that case and he cranked them out fast. I agree with your negative points tho, they did exclude more people from the action than hangman.
    Reality is I'm fine with either.
    Hangman is fine.
    Important thing is the single Theme.
    Let's keep this simple and not overcomplicate.
    This Jam should be all about streamlining.
     
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  33. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    My thoughts are:

    - Voters should be required to rank (at least) the top three positions -- i.e., first place, second, third.
    Short reviews (or explanations) for each choice should be encouraged, but not required.​

    - Ranking a larger number of games should be encouraged, but not required.

    - Special awards are fun, and should continue.
    However, "Best use of Theme" seems redundant, since it invariably goes to a top-three winner anyway. I'd prefer award categories that recognize unusual and innovative ideas -- even if they aren't necessarily polished yet. Maybe "Most Innovative Concept". Or "Most Original Idea". This might bring more members into the "winner circle" who aren't already in the top ten.​
     
  34. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    If we are gonna go for top 3 only, i guess thats fine by me, although it would be a pity that I wont be able to know if I did any better progress in game making within jams. I would then I have to rely on reviews and they arent many people with the appropiate reviewing format.
     
  35. The M

    The M Member

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    In my opinion we should be as inclusive as possible.

    Top three votes should be required.
    You are encouraged to vote for more but not required. It can be hard to rank a lot of games so it's better to keep it optional.
    Same with reviews.

    I think we lose a lot of valuable feedback if we only look at top three but we should accept if everyone doesn't deliver a list of in-depth reviews and rankings. Most people at least try to play and review all games. Also, reviews and votes are subjective. This is also something we have to accept. If someone votes for a game because they like the genre, then that is OK. Sure, it's "unfair" but it's their opinion. It's better than not having them vote at all.

    Special awards are neat. "Most original idea" seems like a great addition!
     
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  36. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    That's not what I mean at all. I mean it's just no point in having two voting rounds. One for the games and then one for the voters (reviewers). Picking the best reviewer is just picking who gave the best feedback in the vote. If we start voting for voters we become a parliament.

    Also, like I said before, I recommend the points and poll system. Vote for the top three games (nobody should have to vote for more than that and I don't see why somebody voting 20 times should make their 1st place worth any more), those votes carry points of ascending value. When we have 3 (or more) games with the most vote points, put it to a second round of voting so everybody gets their say on the favourite.

    1st Place = 16 pts
    2nd Place = 8 pts
    3rd Place = 4 pts

    Top 3 games go into second voting round:
    Everybody casts a single vote, top games are then reordered to match this criteria.

    If your game scored 0, your game scored 0. I don't see why we should order the null votes, it doesn't really help anybody.

    Edit:
    Yes but then how are these extra, "optional" votes counted? If they carry extra value then the vote from two different uses carry two different values. Every voter should be the same and have the same value to their vote. It's unfair that some people's opinions are worth more than others, it shouldn't matter who "voted harder".
     
  37. The M

    The M Member

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    I see your point and while I think the current system works well I wouldn't mind making it a simple top three vote too much (though I do enjoy seeing how well I score). I think the important part is encouraging reviews. If we only vote for top three, it should be clear that you can (and are encouraged to) review more games than that. Who knows, maybe a limited voting system would lead to more focus on reviews?
     
  38. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Your (counted) votes have nothing to do with the reviews you can write.The Jam (for as long as I can remember it) has always encouraged as many reviews as possible. Even before Nocturne created the "Best Reviewer Award".

    Giving people more counted votes or worse, unlimited votes is basically saying person A's opinion is worth more than person B's. I think a fair way to do it would be to have a set number of votes that a voter must use (3 or 5) and then disqualify all votes that do not meet that criteria. Any votes after that is just for reviewing purposes and shouldn't really effect the end result, they being optional and uncounted by the closing Jam count.
     
  39. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    The Best Categories dont even count for votes at all. They were always optional. They were just to boost up motivation for participants in the jam. However, it gives more work for participants and yeah it is pointless too so no reason why it will motivate users in that case. Which is why I gave an option earlier...

    We can stick with the top 3 choices but if people still want the Best Categories for personal motivation in jam, then let the host alone assign the winners. There is no reason for us to vote for it ourselves if it isnt worth a score on the jam, its putting more work for the participants in voting phase. I mean it can be for fun though but why put more work for it? Now if the host disagrees on this then I believe it is better not to add any Best Category at all and establish a new method on attracting participants.

    Three options:

    - Forget about the Best Categories and establish a new way to attract participants.
    - Keep the Best Categories but have the host only assign the winners (no voter needs to vote for these categories)
    - Keep the Best Categories and allow voters to give out their choices for them, and winners get something in return (other than a simple image indicating they won Best on <insertcategoryhere>)
     
  40. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    I'm not so sure that specifics on this will make a *whole* lot of difference...
    what we were using for the last few Jams was working (with no real complaints that I know of)...
    Top 3 requirement, encourage more reviews and votes, Bests are a good thing. :)
     
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  41. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    So, right now we have:
    - required top 3 with a piece of feedback
    - optional further ranking, feedback not necessary
    - optional Best of Theme/Concept/Story/Presentation/Devlog

    And Best Reviewer is picked by the Jam host.

    Anyone has anything against keeping things as they are now?

    Also, does anyone has some renaming suggestion? In particular, some people seemed to confuse "Best Concept" with "Best Story", whereas "Best Concept" is meant to go to the most interesting/creative and fun gameplay mechanics.
     
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  42. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    I suppose the term "concept" is rather broad. So maybe a more specific name like "best gameplay mechanic"... or "most creative gameplay" would avoid the confusion.

    Otherwise, I'm happy with the status quo setup you described in your post.
     
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  43. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    I believe another word for concept would be idea but it ia also broad. So just Best Gameplay would do
     
  44. The M

    The M Member

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    I'd go with most creative because that's what I thought the point was, not necessarily best gameplay.
     
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  45. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Yes. Optional further ranking should not effect the final rankings in anyway, only the mandatory votes should count and they should count equally amongst everybody. Anybody who didn't get a vote in those mandatory fields shouldn't be included in the final Jam ranking but included in people's personal (optional) rankings.

    Maybe bump the mandatory votes up to 5 to be more game inclusive.

    That's not really a problem with you or the Jam set up. Game designers really should know the difference between game concept and story. I mean, even hobbyist developers should. Even non-developer gamers should know. It's pretty basic.
     
  46. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    That's a good point. Votes for "best gameplay" often go to the voter's first-place choice. That's not necessarily bad, of course. But it may overlook innovation outside the top tier games.

    Maybe we can identify some categories that reward innovation and creativity outside the top tier. Not sure if that's possible -- just a thought to recognize innovation.
     
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  47. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    It really shouldn't be our problem to cater to the ignorant. They need to learn the difference between the different definitions, we don't need to change the definitions to fit their misconceptions. That's just enforcing bad habits.

    If our community is struggling to recognise the difference between a Game Concept and a Story Concept then it's something we need to fix by educating them of the difference, not by idiot feeding them. Our community is generally full of bright minds who came to Game Maker because they're eager to learn about game design. It's practically a moral responsibility to teach them the designer's alphabet.

    Audio, Balance, Concept, Design, Engine, Funding, Graphics, HUDs & Intelligence. Anybody who can't ID the exact definition of each of those words is basically game developer illiterate.
     
  48. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    Fine, but let's do that in the Game Design Forum, not the Jam. Like you said yourself, Jams should be relaxed fun. I think that goes for both the creation process and the voting process. No need to lecture (or scold) people over their design definitions.

    Either way, your post seems to confirm that "game concept" is maybe too broad. Assuming it comprises audio, balance, concept, design, etc. elements that you listed. So voting for that category would be about the same as voting for best game. Seems rather redundant to me.
     
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  49. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    You don't have to lecture or scold anybody to teach them. That's pretty much the problem with our entire educational system. All it takes is a little, clear description pointed out to voters in the mandatory voting rules, something they should read, and friendly people willing to point them towards it if they stray away. I'm pretty sure this obscure internet game development forum, for all it's trolls, is capable of at least that much.

    The definition of "concept" is "an idea, a plan or an intention". "Game intention", I.E. the goal the game was working towards, regardless of it's actual final presentation, should be pretty clear. The story is a part of that. The Game Concept should cover the idea behind the entire thing, not just the story, anybody who doesn't understand that needs to be educated not catered to.
     
  50. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    Clear as mud. :p j/k I understand your point.

    But I think we're getting in the weeds here. @Alice asked for re-naming suggestions, to make the intent more clear. So if a more descriptive name can do that, I think we should adopt it -- rather than add more explanation to the voting guidelines.

    Her point was that (quoting)" "Best Concept" is meant to go to the most interesting/creative and fun gameplay mechanics." So if that's the intent, maybe we're better off just calling it "Most Interesting/Creative Gameplay Mechanics".

    To be honest, I wasn't very clear on the meaning of Best Concept myself. Granted, I don't have your expertise in game design. But if we can avoid confusion, why not do so? Being explicit isn't "catering to the ignorant"... or "enforcing bad habits", as you said.

    Anyway, that was my response to Alice's question. I'll trust her judgement either way.
     
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