The GM:Mac shutdown is still unacceptable. Explain yourselves, YoYo.

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FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
As if I haven't seen enough of YoYo's customer relations antics, once again we are seeing overnight yanks of existing products with no prior notice or headway.

How many times do I need to be repeat that's not OK? The proper thing to do is to make a public announcement about its discontinuation ahead of time, email existing users, and give them at least 2 weeks to archive the latest installer. Only then should the links be taken down.

Like last time, the installers linked from the release notes were sniped and offloaded to support staff providing downloads one by one. It's hysterical how as a tech company YoYo doesn't understand one of the most basic roles of a website: alleviating work load from support staff. With constant fire sales and the upcoming libpng deadline looming, why was it seen fit to further encumber support staff with needless busy work like this?

Is a bigger repeat of this out-of-the-blue rug-pulling what current GMS 1.x users can also expect soon? As a legitimate and rather concerned Master Collection owner, I demand an answer, and I mean it.
 
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Artwark

Guest
I'm pretty sure that they will compensate this matter in a matter of days.

I only own the standard edition but I understand the issue that many will face. A feature removed all of a sudden for no reason whatsoever.....
 

XanthorXIII

Member
The only thing I can think of is GMS 2.0 that will be available soon. The only reason you pull a product like that is because a vastly superior version is coming out. Otherwise this would be silly to pass up sales or potential customers or not keeping customers happy. You know like releasing new products that improve greatly.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
The only thing I can think of is GMS 2.0 that will be available soon. The only reason you pull a product like that is because a vastly superior version is coming out. Otherwise this would be silly to pass up sales or potential customers or not keeping customers happy. You know like releasing new products that improve greatly.
GM for Mac was an ancient legacy product, released 7 years ago and based off of a product from 10 years ago... it also has issues I believe with the most recent Mac OS (making it a support nightmare), so it really is no surprise that it has finally been pulled, and I wouldn't read any more into it than that.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
@FrostyCat - You have no idea how pissed off I am reading your post. What gives you the right to take that tone with any member of staff. I don't give a rats ass if you bought the crown jewels, ask questions - don't demand, in the manner you'd like to be address yourself if you please. We have already stated support for 1.x will go on for this for some time - years more than likely. On top of this, Current GM4Mac and GM8.1 users can still use their product, and will continue to be able to do so.

As to GM4Mac, not only are we under no obligation to provide ongoing free download links to those who bought the product, only we know how many users continue to buy, how many this will effect, and just as importantly - the impact to support staff. You don't. If you buy a product online it is up to you to download and safeguard your program. Just because other services like Steam or Apple provide re-download links does not make it a legal requirement. However, IF someone finds they've lost their program, or they didn't realise this, then the help desk will provide them with a copy.

And next time you address any post like this, to any member of staff it'll get deleted - and I mean it too.
 
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NPT

Guest
We have already stated support for 1.x will go on for this for some time - years more than likely.
Where exactly have you stated this? I have been following pretty closely any and all information about the upcoming 2.x and commitment to 1.x and all I have seen for a very long time is YYGs commenting on how they can't say anything.

Could you please point out where you or others have stated support for 1.x will go on for some time.

And what exactly does that even mean, saying "support will go on for some time", says nothing. "Years more than likely", says even less.

Depending on version, exports and purchasing paths, Studio owners have typically paid from between $49 to $899 and it's not unreasonable to have some concerns. Given the abrupt and unannounced termination of availability of 8.1, the same again for GM4Mac.

And let's be clear, I don't have any expectations that 8.1 and GM4Mac be supported still. But I want to know what kind of support life I have before the software is removed. And while you certainly have no legal obligation to provide your software forever, it is not unreasonable for some notice to be provided.


only we know how many users continue to buy, how many this will effect, and just as importantly - the impact to support staff.
You're exactly right, we don't know how many people have bought and how many are affected. But the same goes the other way. You don't know exactly how and how many are affected by decisions like this, Yhey can be affectted in ways you didn't anticipate.

I happen to be aware of a very influential business that was dramatically and negatively impacted by your rash and abrupt decision to make 8.1 unavailable for downloads. It was all avoidable had an announcement been made much earlier.
 
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Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Where exactly have you stated this? I have been following pretty closely any and all information about the upcoming 2.x and commitment to 1.x and all I have seen for a very long time is YYGs commenting on how they can't say anything.
Could you please point out where you or others have stated support for 1.x will go on for some time.
I'm not exactly sure where, but I know Russell has mentioned it. But you're right, it probably wasn't here. That still doesn't excuse the manner of asking.

So I'll say it here; we fully intend to support 1.x for the foreseeable future. We are well aware that developers are starting games with it, and that there are console games being made.

And what exactly does that even mean, saying "support will go on for some time", says nothing. "Years more than likely", says even less.
I don't see how saying support will likely last years says even less. It'll last years. At some point it will obviously end. But like 8.x and GM4Mac, the program will still run even if support stops.

Depending on version, exports and purchasing paths, Studio owners have typically paid from between $49 to $899 and it's not unreasonable to have some concerns. Given the abrupt and unannounced termination of availability of 8.1, the same again for GM4Mac.
And let's be clear, I don't have any expectations that 8.1 and GM4Mac be supported still. But I want to know what kind of support life I have before the software is removed. And while you certainly have no legal obligation to provide your software forever, it is not unreasonable for some notice to be provided.
You're exactly right, we don't know how many people have bought and how many are affected. But the same goes the other way. You don't know exactly how and how many are affected by decisions like this.
I happen to be aware of a business that was dramatically and negatively impacted by your rash and abrupt decision to make 8.1 unavailable for downloads. It was all avoidable had an announcement been made much earlier.
I disagree. First, 8.1 and GM4Mac WERE supported for years after Studio came out. The decision to remove it was far from rash - in fact, it was way past time. Just because you weren't in the discussions doesn't mean you know better.

Also, if your business is based on being able to buy a product, then even if we gave a few weeks notice, it'd still be unsustainable. Making something available for download would not effect either purchases, or being able to register the free version, and so would be a benefit to a business anyway. Removing it from sale also means removing free registrations, so all you would have been able to do was download it, and without already having bought it - you could then do nothing.
 
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NPT

Guest
Also, if your business is based on being able to buy a product, then even if we gave a few weeks notice, it'd still be unsustainable. Making something available for download would not effect either purchases, or being able to register the free version, and so would be a benefit to a business anyway. Removing it from sale also means removing free registrations, so all you would have been able to do was download it, and without already having bought it - you could then do nothing.
This isn't true.

You could download 8.1 and run it just fine. You got the Lite version and didn't need to register it, you just couldn't access some features and got the splash screen. There was no registering the free version.
 
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Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
I stand corrected - it must have been Studio that introduced that.

But saying that, would have made it one of the main reasons to remove it. We'd have wanted folk using current products, not older ones. This would have been part of the business case to remove it. I know it was only kept live for so long to give education time to swap to Studio, and sales for it were minimal, so as far as we were concerned there was no reason to keep it alive. Having anyone use the free version means we have to keep supporting it - even in terms of help desk saying "we don't support it" which we did - do, get a lot of.

So again.... removing it, even a few weeks later would not have mattered to whoever it was you were talking about. We did keep it going for years after it was pretty redundant, not to mention the fact it just crashed on windows 8.x.... This was unfixable due to Microsoft, and we couldn't sell something that was just broken. We tried to fix it, but couldn't. Same with GM4Mac, it just doesn't work on the newest OS I've been told.
 

ShaunJS

Just Another Dev
GMC Elder
GM 4 Mac still functions just fine. No features have been dropped. The product was already legacy. There's no impact to current users whatsoever.

It simply can no longer be be purchased. Despite clear warnings of its legacy status many users purchased it believing it to be equivilant to GM:S. It does not even operate correctly on the latest version of Mac OS. It is ancient. Our support staff favored the change and it was in our interests to remove it as soon as possible after the decision was made.
 

True Valhalla

Full-Time Developer
GMC Elder
As a heavy Mac user, I'm thrilled to see GM4Mac finally be discontinued; it's long overdue. I know far too many people that use it, when a better option is to run GMS with either Bootcamp or Parallels. I hope this change pushes more people in that direction.

You didn't need a crystal ball to predict this.
 
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NPT

Guest
There's no impact to current users whatsoever.
So again.... removing it, even a few weeks later would not have mattered to whoever it was you were talking about.
Frostycat's post might have been out of line but the responses from the two of you (and you said the same things during the removal of 8.1) really are no better. The two of you are both telling the world that there is no way that users will be impacted because the software still runs the same. And you're wrong, while the software still runs the same your removing the availability changed the customer base dramatically. And the fact that you removed it without warning gave them no time to react or port their material to Studio.

Here are some of the details, but be aware I don't know all of the details but I'll share with you some of what I do know:
  • It was a post secondary educational institute.
  • They delivered Gamemaker to first semester computer science students as their first language.
  • They delivered Gamemaker to non-technology students, recognizing these students often had little interest in computing and an entry level game programming course was very attractive.
  • They used Gamemaker in dog-and-pony shows for highschools for public relations to attract young people to post-secondary technology.
  • They used GameMaker 8.1 for a lot of reasons, including:
    • it was incredably stable
    • The free version that the students used didn't have the 15 object limitation that the free version of Studio had. (I'm aware that limitation is now gone but that's a relatively new inovation)
    • It's single source file was easy and convenient to travel with. The multiple file directory structure is a nightmare for novice students to travel with, they are always not copying the whole directory or failing to do a GMZ and loosing their work.
    • There were relevant reference books for 8.1 (Apprentice and Companion) and virtually no reference books for Studio.
    • 8.1 is much more novice friendly especially with error messages.
  • The lead time for conversion from 8.1 to Studio is an enormous task:
    • Faculty are required to apply for and be assigned development time to be offloaded from course delivery for new courses and course overhauls.
    • Computer labs use software called DeepFreeze. This software freezes a computer image essientially making it immutable for the school semester, thus it can't be upgraded.
    • I.T. requires access to the software months in advance to test compatibility with the lab environment and equipment.
  • I could go on..........

So last September, faculty came off vacation to find that their courses were completely obsolete. They had no time to recreate new material and students had no way to download 8.1 and there was no way that Studio could be installed in the labs. Some of the material was relevant but most was not. To make matters worse that was during the time of the Humble Bundle nightmare so the majority of students couldn't even download and run Studio because running the install software resulted in that I/O errors and the modules couldn't be downloaded or updated. As I recall that lasted about a month before the servers could handle the load and you put a fix in place.

The semester was an absolute disaster and many students lost their first semester programming credit.

They have since changed their first language to Python.

Simply put, you can't antipate the consequences of all the decisions you make. Nor, do you know the environment, challenges and considerations that some of your customers have using your current products and upgrading.

So, please quit with the crap about "there's no impact to current users whatsoever" and how "changing the annoncement lead time would not have mattered" because how you handled it last year there was a considerable impact to a whole bunch of people.
 

zbox

Member
GMC Elder
Putting all this aside, I don't visit the forums too often at the moment so I don't know what the chatter is, but 1.x already feels discontinued to me. Highly infrequent updates for a large number of bugs, and I find myself rather than anticipating using a gamemaker feature, trying to find a bugfix or a workaround for it. If I downloaded a new copy of Gamemaker today and opened one of my projects I guarantee you it wouldn't compile.

Just really feels like 1.x has had the lifeforce sucked out of it by concentrating on 2.x, and I guess that logistically makes sense. Promising support for a few more years however looks interesting in that light...
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
First of all, I apologize for the tone in the initial post. NPT has said it much better than I did. But I implore you to reconsider our shared view.

A 2 week lead time preceded by an emailed announcement would have made all the difference, especially to institutionalized users. Nobody is disagreeing with GM:Mac being sunsetted one day, but give everyone a chance to get a backup installer on their own before then. With school starting in just over a week, it's the difference between a first day of good first impressions and real lessons, versus a first day of scrambling and waiting for the helpdesk.

About that post-secondary institution NPT is talking about, I think I know which it is as well. Usually there would be a number of its students around October/November posting their assignments here, but that largely stopped since last year. Perhaps I know why now.
 

Coded Games

Member
Thought I might chime in. I do agree that this change was rather abrupt but I don't find that really to be a bad thing. I might be wrong but, I thought that GM4Mac was only distributed through the Mac App Store (That is at least how I bought it). Because of this, there is no need to backup the installer because there is no installer altogether and even if you bought it you can still re-download it through the Mac App Store under your purchases.

I'm actually really surprised at how up in arms some of you are about a piece of software that the vast majority of GM users will never even have used, no less even heard of.
 
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NPT

Guest
Thought I might chime in. I do agree that this change was rather abrupt but I don't find that really to be a bad thing. I might be wrong but, I thought that GM4Mac was only distributed through the Mac App Store (That is at least how I bought it). Because of this, there is no need to backup the installer because there is no installer altogether and even if you bought it you can still re-download it through the Mac App Store under your purchases.
You are wrong, it was also available from YYGs, that's how I boughtt it.


I'm actually really surprised at how up in arms some of you are about a piece of software that the vast majority of GM users will never even have used, no less even heard of.
I and Frosty are not up in arms about some piece of software that the vast majority of GM users will never even have used.

What I've been discussing is how YYGs End-of-Lifes (EOL) their software and most importantly how they are going to EOL Studio 1.x. You should have known we weren't concerned specifically about GM4Mac because we both referenced it having happened with 8.1 and then relating it to Studio. I don't know how you couldn't have known this topic ws about process.

I haven't run GM4Mac in years, I know it's installed on my MacBook, but I don't think I've even installed in on my iMac. I also have all my installers safely tucked away (kinda). That's not what the topic is about.

IM(notso)HO YYGs needs to publish their support lifecycle before they bury their software, not after and then tell their customers that they're not obligated to provide the download and suggest they should have known better because of how old it was.
 
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Galladhan

Guest
You should have known we weren't concerned specifically about GM4Mac because we both referenced it having happened with 8.1 and then relating it to Studio.
Maybe i'm missing the point here, but honestly i can't understand this concern. I mean... your worries would be legitimate if YYG decided to remove GM 8.1 some months after the advent of GM:S. But, if i remember correctly, 8.1 was removed from sale in the spring of 2015, 3 years after GM:S launch (if my memory isn't cheating on me). It means that if YYG releases 2.0 this year, and they follow the same approach, Studio would be on sale until... 2019? Would it be really so concerning?
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
You are wrong, it was also available from YYGs, that's how I boughtt it.
Yes, the Mac app store didn't really sell that many, but like steam was another store front. You could get a trial from us though....

In terms of the education.... We gave schools 3 years to swap, education sales had dropped to virtually zero and were continually told they should be swapping. We are well aware that schools etc. take a loooong time to change, but if the issue wasn't forced, they never would - it's as simple as that.

Second, if it had been that bad, they could have gotten in touch and explained it to us, we could have helped. While we wanted to make sure everyone swapped because we couldn't keep going indefinitely with 8.1, if a whole term was going to be screwed, we could have done something.

Third - The installation of 8.1 on school networks was an utter nightmare. We got continual support questions about how to install it, how does an MSI work, network drives - you name it. School IT departments can sometimes be filled with utter morons - you wouldn't believe the stuff we've gotten. 8.1 simply wasn't great at going on school machines, and did sometimes require that you know...well, what the hell your doing. Studio is MUCH easier, it cuts down support a lot, it's far easier for schools to deal with, and lives with closed network systems much better.

Fourth - 8.1 is still out there on hundreds of sites for download. The free version as you pointed out, requires nothing more than to download and install. If they were that buggered, then it would have been a simple matter to download, scan it with as many scanners as you could, and give it to the pupils.

Fifth - if they'd been doing this course for years before, then surely they would have HAD the installer already that they could have given to the kids?

Sixth - Even if we'd given a few weeks notice - or a couple of months for that matter, this sounds like it was over the break so would have made no difference. They would have needed a year or more, and frankly...they already had about 3. Schools won't change unless they have to. They buy something and sit on it - well, forever.

As a business, we can't support old products forever, but if someone is utterly screwed, then they can talk to us - we're not evil, I think we've proven over and over we will try to help when we can. We've worked with a few schools and colleges to move to Studio, but we can only do so much. We aren't Microsoft, we can't support legacy products for 10 years +, and lets remember it was marked as legacy for a looooong time.

As to Mac.... it was used even less than 8.1, the sales were next to nothing, and it's education impact was virtually non-existent. Because we're still going to help those who have it get the installer, the actual impact on people is zero. It's a horribly dated program - hell, it was when it came out, but it had been in development for so long, Sandy just wanted it finished and "something" out there. So when Russell and I joined, he pushed to get it finished.

not after and then tell their customers that they're not obligated to provide the download and suggest they should have known better because of how old it was.
And this isn't what we said. We've said if you need help, contact the helpdesk and they will help. We've not told them "tough luck, you should have kept it". Just like 7, 8 and 8.1, we still allow customers to contact us if they're stuck, and we'll help them.

As for any product, once the new version comes out, you will expect at some point updates and fixes will start to get less and less over time. I've said we aim to keep support going for it for a good while, and even when it does eventually stop, like 8.1 and GM4Mac - it will still run.

Also... for the record, I don't consider Parallels to be the way to do things on the Mac, it should be a proper Mac app. While it's a work around - and does work, it's certainly not something you can expect people (devs or schools) to reasonably do. The next version should finally fix this, as there will be a Mac version.
 

Ninety

Member
The issue isn't that YoYo removes their software after a period of time. It's that they consistently give no notice when doing so, harming institutionalised user bases. Then, when people criticise this decision (note that they are not criticising the decision to remove the download, but rather the decision to give no notice, a point many in this thread are finding very difficult to understand) an army of people jump to YoYo's defence with "oh well no one was using it anyway".

It doesn't matter that like 3 people are still using GM:Mac. What matters is that YoYo hasn't handled its discontinuations well. This is a legitimate criticism no matter how many fanboys and ad-hominems you try to drown it in.

It happened before, it has happened now and it's a legitimate concern that it will happen again.

EDIT, in reply to Mike's ninja post: You raise good points but I'm still not seeing any reason why you refuse to provide notice.
 

ShaunJS

Just Another Dev
GMC Elder
GM4Mac as a product and GM8.1 are wholly different with enormously different userbases, audiences, customers and also simply status as software.

GM8.1 was a stable product, but GM4Mac simply doesn't work correctly and is not in a state that we can responsibly sell to customers. We were taking money from customers for an ancient product that should have been retired a long time ago. This had to stop immediately. When parsing the risk of more customers mistakenly buying GM4Mac convinced it was a product on level with Studio only to be outraged and demand refunds, vs a few existing customers having to wait roughly twenty four hours to get access to an installer for GM4Mac in the case that A: they still use the software, B: don't have the installer already, C:Are in a huge pressing hurry to have the installer on the day that this problem occurs to them, we in this case decided to take the latter risk.

Most of the concerns here seems to be that we are demonstrating a pattern in how we deal with software end of life. This case was dealt with as an isolated issue based on the product's own circumstances, age, audience, userbase and so on. However I understand the concern that if this is how we remove one product from sale, it infers that this is our "policy" and may one day happen with our current flagship product: 1.x. This concern I believe originates with 8.1's removal (predating my employment) and then is exacerbated by this particular event. I appreciate where those concerns come from and I will make sure that while we have NO current intention of discontinuing 1.x at any point in the near future, that should that day arrive the process will be handled with care.

Ultimately, as I have already stated. The software is still available. It is no longer available for purchase.
 
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