Discussion The EU Referendum

[Rusty]

By not voting, you abstain. A lot of the people I talked to figured that the government either wasn't going to leave anyway so there was no point in voting or that politicians in general are just crap bags. A lot of people feel powerless, a lot of people just don't care either way, they just want to live their lives in peace and it's fair play to them. I know a couple of potential voters who didn't but ultimately, that's their choice.

Also, Cameron stepping down doesn't mean we get two months with an unelected leader. He even stated that he would continue on as Prime Minister until October, from where on the party would have decided upon a new leader. What he plans to happen after that, I'm not sure.

 

[Law]

By not voting, you abstain. A lot of the people I talked to figured that the government either wasn't going to leave anyway so there was no point in voting or that politicians in general are just crap bags. A lot of people feel powerless, a lot of people just don't care either way, they just want to live their lives in peace and it's fair play to them. I know a couple of potential voters who didn't but ultimately, that's their choice.

Also, Cameron stepping down doesn't mean we get two months with an unelected leader. He even stated that he would continue on as Prime Minister until October, from where on the party would have decided upon a new leader. What he plans to happen after that, I'm not sure.

No, two YEARS with an unelected leader. The Tory party will remain in power but without Cameron at the helm. The leader we will end up with will have been chosen by the Torres from their own ranks.

 

[Tirous]

Again, not gonna try to enter this fruitless argument, but may i point out what has just happened to the price of the pound in wake of these events?

Like, almost immediately after actually...

 

[Yokcos]

We currently have an unelected PM. Over 60% of people voted against Cameron.

 

[Law]

That's why we need proportional representation... like the EU has.

 

[Rusty]

We currently have an unelected PM. Over 60% of people voted against Cameron.

I'm sorry but do you have any basic understanding on how the British Democratic system works? Cameron's Tory Party got the most votes, winning 330 seats and 36.9% of the overall population, the other percentage is mixed between the other parties with the second largest being Ed Miliband in Labour with 232 seats and 30.4%. We're not America, we have more than two parties.

Is giving the prize to the person with the most votes (and therefore supporting the majority) somehow undemocratic to you?

Edit:
You actually don't even have to know how the system works, you just have to have an elementary level maths education to understand which is the bigger number. So unless you have some shocking evidence that somehow invalidates the maths taught to me and the other pupils who attended my primary school, I don't see how your statement is true in the slightest.

 

[Yokcos]

I am pretty sure we had a referendum on that relatively recently to switch to AV and as usual the people made the wrong call.

I'm sorry but do you have any basic understanding on how the British Democratic system works? Cameron's Tory Party got the most votes, winning 330 seats and 36.9% of the overall population, the other percentage is mixed between the other parties with the second largest being Ed Miliband in Labour with 232 seats and 30.4%. We're not America, we have more than two parties.

Is giving the prize to the person with the most votes (and therefore supporting the majority) somehow undemocratic to you?

Yes.
The Tories had about a third of the votes. They should have a third of the control. Completely ignoring the wishes of two thirds of the population is indicative of a terrible system.

 

[Tirous]

I'm sorry but do you have any basic understanding on how the British Democratic system works? Cameron's Tory Party got the most votes, winning 330 seats and 36.9% of the overall population, the other percentage is mixed between the other parties with the second largest being Ed Miliband in Labour with 232 seats and 30.4%. We're not America, we have more than two parties.

Is giving the prize to the person with the most votes (and therefore supporting the majority) somehow undemocratic to you?

Again not to stir trouble, but given 3 parties, if two have 33% of the vote and the third gets 34% of the vote(33% + 33% + 34% = 100%) that still means the third party won even tho 66% of the population didn't vote for them, which is a minority, not a majority.

 

[Rusty]

We already had a coalition government, are you sure you really want to go back to that? But permanently? Isn't the political system already tedious enough?

Edit:
Are you trying to pan out an argument to only remove 52% of Britain from the EU?

 

[@Alex@]

I'm sorry but do you have any basic understanding on how the British Democratic system works? Cameron's Tory Party got the most votes, winning 330 seats and 36.9% of the overall population, the other percentage is mixed between the other parties with the second largest being Ed Miliband in Labour with 232 seats and 30.4%. We're not America, we have more than two parties.

Is giving the prize to the person with the most votes (and therefore supporting the majority) somehow undemocratic to you?

First Past the Post is a very poor system. Proportional Representation is something that needs to happen, sooner rather than later. The Conservatives won when the majority did not want them even though they received the largest share of seats.

 

[Rusty]

First Past the Post is a very poor system. Proportional Representation is something that needs to happen, sooner rather than later. The Conservatives won when the majority did not want them even though they received the largest share of seats.

Does nobody here actually remember Nick Clegg? I mean, I know that guy didn't leave much of an impression but still...

 

[Tirous]

We already had a coalition government, are you sure you really want to go back to that? But permanently? Isn't the political system already tedious enough?

Edit:
Are you trying to pan out an argument to only remove 52% of Britain from the EU?

Simply saying minority rule leaves the majority unrepresented.

 

[Rusty]

They're not unrepresented though. We occasionally manage to get something done here because we're not a Republic. We vote in a strong leader who makes propositions, those propositions are (and have often been in this Tory government) pushed back by either the opposition party or by protest groups (as we have recently seen with the Junior Doctor's strike).

Edit:
I can't actually believe the same people who were saying we should stay in the EU are the same guys saying that their votes don't matter enough and they feel unrepresented. EU officials are appointed and we never got to vote for them.

 

[Law]

Except the leader we are going to have for the next two years after Cameron will be one none of us voted for...

 

[Rusty]

Except the leader we are going to have for the next two years after Cameron will be one none of us voted for...

We voted for the Tory party, we got the Tory party. The Tory party is the leader. Cameron was the figure head. The Prime Minister doesn't do everything to run the country, his cabinet do most of the work you voted for.

 

[Tirous]

They're not unrepresented though. We occasionally manage to get something done here because we're not a Republic. We vote in a strong leader who makes propositions, those propositions are (and have often been in this Tory government) pushed back by either the opposition party or by protest groups (as we have recently seen with the Junior Doctor's strike).

Not to invalidate what you say, but that doesn't change the fact that if your PM was elected by a minority, then that still leaves a majority unrepresented by said PM, the manner in which the governmental process takes place is irrelevant.

Not that this has anything to do with the EU thing, but i just thought you should know =)

 

[Law]

We voted for the Tory party, we got the Tory party. The Tory party is the leader. Cameron was the figure head. The Prime Minister doesn't do everything to run the country, his cabinet do most of the leg work.

But that's exactly how the leaders in the EU are chosen, and you call them unelected.

 

[Rusty]

But that's exactly how the leaders in the EU are chosen, and you call them unelected.

The leaders in the EU are chosen by voting the Tory Party?

Edit:
Are you referring to the European Parliament by any chance? The European Parliament which is not the governing body of the EU?

 

[Tirous]

The leaders in the EU are chosen by voting the Tory Party?

Now i dont mean to be rude, but when people begin to base there arguments on nit-picked specifics and miss-interpreted literals, then said discussion has officially lost all meaning.

Not that this ain't common the internet or in government, just thought you should know

 

[Law]

There are 15 different parties in the EU, So all the European conservatives are one party. Same with the eurosceptics, the greens etc. We vote for them, they choose our leaders. Just like in the uk. But arguably better because it's pr not fptp.

 

[Tirous]

Reported this thread asking for it to be closed, as it appears to have derailed by this point.

Still a important discussion, but i dont feel like the current arguments will do nothing but invoke right vs left type conflict, which will teach us nothing.

No matter to me, good-day =)
*puts on top-hat and proceeds to exit room*

 

[Law]

Rusty appears to have edited after posting so I wanted to add. There is no governing body of the EU, and no president. There are three main structures and we have a say in all three. I challenge you to contradict this.

 

[Rusty]

Rusty appears to have edited after posting so I wanted to add. There is no governing body of the EU, and no president. There are three main structures and we have a say in all three. I challenge you to contradict this.

There are four presidents;
President of the European Council Donald Tusk
President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker
President of the European Parliament Martin Schulz
Presidency of the Council of the European Union, The Netherlands

So tell me now, which of these did you vote for?

 

[Law]

It's very interesting those roles you list are in the exact same order as the wiki entry for president of the European Union, which is also the first Google result for president of the European Union, and also informs you that the president of the European Union doesn't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Union

But for the sake of it. Because you didn't read the articles you saw.

The president of the European council is chosen by the heads of state of each country.
The president of the European Commission is chosen by the parliament.
The president of the European Parliament is chosen by the parliament.

The presidency of the council doesnt have any actual power. Which you would know if you hadn't merely google searched president of the EU. It rotates between the countries and is currently the Netherlands.

I'm going to bow out because you clearly don't know what you are talking about. If you're going to read a page conclusively saying you are wrong and then steal the to information to make it seem like you are right... Well frankly that's pathetic. Have a good day.

 

[Rusty]

Do you really think I know those guys from memory? I googled it to get their names and then went on to copy and paste it into here. You said there was no ruling body and no president, I merely rebutted this by saying that there is several ruling bodies and several presidents.

Also, being chosen by the parliament is not the same as a democratic vote to get into power.

 

[Lukasmah]

So, that's it...

https://twitter.com/LotharHS/status/746292683627454464

 

[yodamerlin]

Do you really think I know those guys from memory? I googled it to get their names and then went on to copy and paste it into here. You said there was no ruling body and no president, I merely rebutted this by saying that there is several ruling bodies and several presidents.

Also, being chosen by the parliament is not the same as a democratic vote to get into power.

It kinda is. I mean, we would call the way laws are made in this country to be democratic despite not voting on them. Similar to how these are chosen. You vote for your representative and they vote for you. Democracy, right? If that isn't a democracy then we're going to have to change a lot to become a democracy.

On another note. I have no idea how this will affect me. I'm an EU national currently living in the UK and, well, I have to ask, what's going to happen to me? Also, I really don't see why I'm a foreigner when I was born here and lived here my entire life, which is effectively the same as any other British national. But hey, politics.

 

[Tirous]

So, that's it...

https://twitter.com/LotharHS/status/746292683627454464

Thats almost 50% of a empty unreal project worth of space, lol

 

[Andy]

I don’t feel qualified to responsibly discuss these topics, so I’ve decided to remove my commentary.

 

[chance]

I think leaving the EU was a hasty decision, and probably a mistake. It's seems to me a step towards old Europe, polarization, and instability.

Not sure about "old Europe", but I definitely agree leaving was a mistake. There will be an immediate economic slow down in the UK. In the near-term, this will be due to uncertainty. Many businesses postpone new investments during uncertain times. And less investment activity usually means less new hiring.

In the long term it may be even worse. Half of UK exports go to Europe. The UK benefited from lower tariffs and easy market access in EU. That will get harder once they're out of the EU.

 

[Turgon]

I feel bad for U.K. small business owners right now, they have some rough times ahead of them.

 

[Braffolk]

Funny how people are acting like the world is ending for a single day of market chaos that was expected. Things will calm down in a few months, or maybe a year or two.

 

[chance]

Funny how people are acting like the world is ending for a single day of market chaos that was expected. Things will calm down in a few months, or maybe a year or two.

Because it wasn't expected. The expectation was that UK would remain in the EU. But I agree the markets will recover -- at least I hope they will. My retirement account is mostly in stocks. Same as most people.

The UK, however, may suffer permanent damage. Leaving the EU reduces its economic clout and its access to tariff-free markets. Its economy will contract and hiring will slow.

It makes no sense economically. I think the decision was driven more by emotion and nationalism, rather than rational economic planning.

 

[Yal]

IMO the British parliament has a pretty big structural flaw because it's divided into the house of commons and house of lords. The whole point with democracies is to promote that all people are born with equal value, and structuring up their main democratic organization so that one group always can veto stuff the other group comes up with doesn't really rhyme well with that.

 

[roytheshort]

Because it wasn't expected. The expectation was that UK would remain in the EU. But I agree the markets will recover -- at least I hope they will. My retirement account is mostly in stocks. Same as most people.

The UK, however, may suffer permanent damage. Leaving the EU reduces its economic clout and its access to tariff-free markets. Its economy will contract and hiring will slow.

It makes no sense economically. I think the decision was driven more by emotion and nationalism, rather than rational economic planning.

If anyone posts that graph where the FTSE is recovering, that's still not true as it's measuring it in pounds. Pounds have also had a nice fall.

 

[Rusty]

I think the decision was driven more by emotion and nationalism, rather than rational economic planning.

Our decision to leave the EU wasn't a stance against the economic union between these countries, it was a stance against the political union between these countries. We have no problem trading with Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, The Netherlands or the rest of them but we did not agree to, and do not agree to, a foreign body deciding upon our laws.

I think America had the same issue with Britain back in the hayday, didn't they? They felt neglected, abused and downright downtrodden by a foreign body who ruled over them. Thankfully, we didn't have to have a colonist uprising to win that freedom to govern ourselves back. If we have to take a short term hit to our pockets to achieve that then the British people have declared that we are more than happy to make that small sacrifice.

 

[Matthew]

I'd be committing treason against our holy king up in heaven himself if I held my tongue; No, it was definitely about the tea.

 

[Tirous]

Regardless if you think that the brexit was a good move or not, i find it hard to justify such a major geo-political shift being done so abruptly and thoughtlessly, its been nothing but nationalistic fervor with zero real thought being put into this.

 

[Andy]

I don’t feel qualified to responsibly discuss these topics, so I’ve decided to remove my commentary.

 

[chance]

I've seen a few news stories today about how wealthy Asian and Middle Eastern real-estate firms are hoping to buy up lots of British properties at a discount. Brexit uncertainty has dramatically reduced the value of the British pound, making British real-estate suddenly attractive for foreign investors.

It's ironic that a move to regain control could ultimately result in foreign investors having more influence -- at least over one part of the economy.

 

[Rusty]

It's ironic that a move to regain control could ultimately result in foreign investors having more influence -- at least over one part of the economy.

Whatever gets the economy flowing again. Again I need to point out that's we're not against foreign traders or investors, we're happy to trade with anybody, but only we get to decide the rules we live by.

 

[b∩bo]

I wonder if the the sudden spike in Bitcoin prices is due to Brexit uncertainty.

 

[chance]

(snip)
It's ironic that a move to regain control could ultimately result in foreign investors having more influence -- at least over one part of the economy.

Whatever gets the economy flowing again. Again I need to point out that's we're not against foreign traders or investors, we're happy to trade with anybody, but only we get to decide the rules we live by.

(emphasis mine)
What EU rules are you referring to? Just curious.

 

[Rusty]

(emphasis mine)
What EU rules are you referring to? Just curious.

The one I'm most concerned over is the policy of "ever closer union". It's not actually a rule as such, it's a promise of rules to come. The rules that I personally dislike the most is the European Convention of Human Rights (which ironically, was written by the British). While I acknowledge that this act brings a lot of benefits, it's also been used against us to take the piss out of our legal system in the last few years and is badly in need of reform (much like America's Patriot Act).

The point is that we didn't just outright walk out of the Union. We tried negotiating with Europe and while Cameron turned out to be a spineless twerp, none of the European leaders even seemed remotely interested in hearing us. The options we handed them was reform or die and they ignored our cry for reform so now hopefully the union will die. As soon as the political union of Europe dies, we can get back to making a union in Europe that is purely economic and respects the sovereignty of the nations in it.

 

[Matthew]

Again, not gonna try to enter this fruitless argument, but may i point out what has just happened to the price of the pound in wake of these events?

Like, almost immediately after actually...

You just entered this argument, friend. The pound dropped because everyone was going on and on about how they'd never leave the EU. This was unexpected. Powerful people are watching. This is what happens when the market is taken by surprise. Are you able to tell me how much of its former value its already regained in this short time?

 

[Rusty]

Are you able to tell me how much of its former value its already regained in this short time?

We've recovered about half the lost value but it's still in a slight decline (to the best of my knowledge). There is no mistake that our economic standpoint is a bit of a monkey's snowball fight but that's largely due to (as you've said) the fact that somehow people are surprised by this. Honestly, somebody should have done something to warn investors because apparently polls were too difficult for them to read.

 

[Law]

Are you able to tell me how much of its former value its already regained in this short time?

None.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W

 

[Rusty]

None.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W

It would appear I was mistake about the recovery of the pound. I knew about the recovery on the 24th and the stable but slight descent onwards from that but I wasn't appear of late yesterday or today.

Either way, somehow our currency is still the 3rd strongest on the planet.

Edit:
Apparently I'm wrong about that too. The Sterling Pound is the 5th strongest currency on the planet behind the Falklands Pound. Either way, that's still pretty darn good considering the hit it took. It shows just how powerful our economy actually is.

 

[Matthew]

None.

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=1W

The trick is to zoom in until you see a number you like.

 

[Rusty]

Okay, I'm here again because I'm now sick to death of these claims of "old Europe" and how we're heading for World War 3.

1) Britain didn't start World War 1 or World War 2. Britain defended Belgium and France from invading Germany. Twice.
2) World War 2 was started due to the oppression of the native German people, something that is very real and happening again in Germany today due to a second wave of war shaming. The mistakes of the past are already being repeated inside of the EU and again Britain is looking to distance itself from that.
3) Britain has never shared a particularly close relationship with Europe, we have always looked outwards to the rest of the world (which admittedly we mostly invaded). Yet somehow, even "Old Europe" Britain managed to scrape by without trying to outright murder most of it's neighbours.

The main lesson I think we should be able to take from World War II is to not hold people accountable for the actions of their ancestors. Hitler would probably be a famous artist by now if we hadn't purposely broken the legs of their economy and forced a post-war Germany into poverty and desperation. Nobody has learnt anything. I still get told I'm evil because your great grandmother couldn't vote for the first half of her life, I'm still told I'm responsible for slavery (which is ironic because my ancestors have never been wealthy enough to be slave owners) and young Germanics are still being told to go die as a race. The Antifa movement is going around blatantly discriminating against anything that looks remotely Aryan and refuses to apologise for leaving old Otto's nutsack and their Prime Minister binned their own flag with immigration policies that are designed to destroy the native majority in the country.

Leaving the EU isn't going to start World War 3. The whole point is that we don't care that much about Europe, definitely not enough to start picking fights with it. What is going to start World War 3 is the continued oppression of people under a self loathing government and the instatement of a European Army. That's public anger and a valid target to start shooting at Hell, I'm just surprised they haven't invaded Belgium already at this point.