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GMC Jam Discussion The Chimerical GMC Jam #8 Discussion Topic

Discussion in 'GMC Jam' started by Ragarnak, May 8, 2018.

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  1. IndianaBones

    IndianaBones Member

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  2. Jdown79

    Jdown79 Member

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    Just wanted to thank everyone in one instead of individually messaging, this is the first jam that we have participated in, and the results have been really great, and it's been fantastic to get crowd feedback about what issues were present, and what features were preferred / unwanted. Thanks again for the kind words. :D
     
  3. Wraithious

    Wraithious Member

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    @IndianaBones haha yes his weapon is based on Krull, the character too but I kinda failed drawing him up, (but he does look like he is a level 100 warrior haha) and he was the last character (and last graphics resource) I created and realized I didn't have time to polish his graphics as I hadn't written hardly any code yet, I had wanted to give him some sort of armor besides his shorts, also I didn't have time to give him some spells and forgot to remove the manna bar before submitting the game :/
     
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  4. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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  5. Wraithious

    Wraithious Member

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    @Ziberteck @penguin533
    >>>>>>>>AND ANYONE ELSE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH SHADER COMPILE CRASH ON GAME BUILD AND RUN<<<<<<<< weather it is on my jam entry or not

    AHHHH I am sooo glad this shader issue is not my fault! I can rest easy now, I found the fix for windows 10 spring update that breaks shaders! someone on steam solved it, it's a direct x issue and you just need to download the fix, here's the article on steam . I wish windows would stop making updates every 4 months, what do they think they are, Android? they both do wayyy too many updates, at leas android usually doesn't break things when they update their os.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  6. var

    var Member

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    Assuming you meant the time rewinding, it was a combination of two things. Some elements were made deterministic, so that we could calculate what their position should be solely based on how much time has passed (e.g. x = speed * time, rather than the more normal x += speed). For more complicated objects, we stored position, health, etc. for each frame in a wrapping buffer, and then we just read through the buffer backwards while rewinding.
     
  7. Pere

    Pere Member

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    Awesome, that makes sense. By wrapping buffer you mean a ds_list or ds_stack?
     
  8. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    The voting is about to end!

    I wonder how things will turn out. At this point, a single vote can change who gets the first place, and some people post their votes at the very last moment...
     
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  9. var

    var Member

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    No, literally

    Code:
    buffer_create(4800, buffer_wrap, 8)
    https://docs.yoyogames.com/source/dadiospice/002_reference/buffers/using buffers.html

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Okay, finished all my reviews, and I have some general advice (i.e. issues I saw repeated across several games).
    1. If you're making a game with a 3rd dimension, make sure that the player can tell where things are in that third dimension. Quite a few games had a 45 degree angle viewpoint, and some objects in those games were ambiguous as to whether they were above the player in the y axis or z axis. One easy way to do this is provide a shadow directly below the objects (i.e. in the same place on the z axis), so players can gauge their relative position based on the shadow.
    2. Menu controls should be the same as game controls: if the ingame controls are keyboard only, the menu has to be fully navigable with the keyboard, and if the ingame controls are mouse and keyboard, the menu has to be navigable with the mouse only. (Even our game is slightly guilty of this—the menu is intended for mouse control; keyboard technically works but not very well.)
    3. Don't invent some weird control scheme. Unless you have a unique concept requiring a unique control scheme, you should probably have either WASD+JKL, Arrows+ZXC, or WASD+Mouse.
    4. Have other people test the game. An unfortunate amount of games were too difficult for me to beat before I ran out of time or motivation, and I can't rate what I can't even get to. If you specifically want to make it very difficult as a design choice, provide a way to make it easier (e.g. an easy mode, a way to skip levels, even just giving the player cheats). You may have 17 superbly designed bosses, but if I can't beat the first boss I can't rate the game's 16 other bosses, and your game is going to get a ranking as if the first boss was the only one that existed. Giving us cheats may not give us the full experience, but at least we get to see the entire game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  10. Evan Malinowski

    Evan Malinowski Member

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    I didnt really get into the whole voting thing, but I just want to say I love The Ashen Tower by JacobV and Parmesano, ITS AMAZING, it looks great, the gameplay is creative, the controls and sounds need to be worked on, but I love it and think it should be worked on further and made into a full game

    (moderator note: moved from the voting topic)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2018
  11. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    The results are out!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Full results

    Complete ranking: Score breakdown spreadsheet

    1. {Insert Game Title Here} by @Coded Games
    2. Boss Beat by @Gravedust
    3. The Ashen Tower by @JacobV, Parmesano
    4. Tower of Power by @The M
    5. The Hoard by @Cloaked Games, @Pere
    6. Yarr 'n Gee by @Murzy, @swonqi, moose_tunes
    7. SWAMP by @mimusic
    8. Red Sabre by @Misty
    9. BRAXION by @Hyomoto
    10. Malicious Intent by @Shadow_Lancer, @Shameless
    11. Overtime by @Siolfor the Jackal
    12. Dungeon Boss Simulator by @Zodaris, Rikileitr
    13. Mr Quack by @BrandonC
    14. Gammon Princess by Team Flob (@GameDevDan, @NAL)
    15. Fight The Power by @Kodiqi
    16. Hooktik by @matharoo, @Micah_DS
    17. Action Arena by @Kahrabaa
    18. KVN by @penguin533
    19. Yellow Gear by @chinykian
    20. Bullet Overtime by @Cat, @var
    21. Like A Boss by @imhanner, Nadine B
    22. Ruruna vs. Crab King by @ThePandaSenpai
    23. Xenos Will Be Judged by @Alix, @Bentley, @starwolf
    24. A Sticky Mess by Seet, Jing Hui, Joyce
    25. Sector78 by @makas, @daniel
    26. LegBot by @Jdown79, Maice, Zach
    27. Boss Meadow by @trg601, moon489
    28. The Businessman by @Will, @CreativeJon90
    29. You Have To Drop The Bass by @Alice
    30. Project Hellkite by @Dr. Wolf
    31. Journey of Tardin by @Dengar
    32. Last Knight by @Ziberteck
    33. Tankshow by @Paskaler, Matei Osenk
    34. Big Bad Boss Fight! by @IndianaBones
    35. The Nameless Cyborg by Sahaun, Bastian
    36. Space Boss by @Alexx
    37. A boss day by @mjadev
    38. TITLE: 43 by GRArthas, Drooms, Brian mowat
    39. Boss Off! by @Bart
    40. Overtime by @H3ADL3SS, @Archnix
    41. Twilight Legasy by @Wraithious
    42. BossBoss by Studio Basem (Jack Foster, Julie Kwon, Walter Foster)
    43. Stealth Game by @TheOakNuggins
    44. Boss Attack by @2Dspessman
    45. Gladiator by Pirates of the Sea of Stars (Linkydee, MountainProductons, @Silver-bowsman)
    46. Desert Punchman by @shadowspear1
    47. Fish Chef Brigade by Cjheighton
    48. I Quit! by @Sinaz20, @FredFredrickson, VaultComplex
    49. Galaxy Goons by @HayManMarc
    50. Boss Of All Bosses by @dphsw, @FeetUpGaming
    51. BO5S by @sylvain_l
    52. AwesomeBossBattleGamen't by @orSQUADstra
    53. Boss Fighting Game 2018 by @Storyteller

    Best-ofs:

    Best use of Theme: The Hoard by @Cloaked Games, @Pere
    Best Concept: {Insert Game Title Here} by @Coded Games
    Best Presentation: Yarr 'n Gee by @Murzy, @swonqi, moose_tunes
    Best Story: The Ashen Tower by @JacobV, Parmesano
    Best Devlog: I Quit! by @Sinaz20, @FredFredrickson, VaultComplex

    Best reviewer: @Ralucipe, for in-depth analysis of each rated game

    Jam prizes

    The top 3 entrants and best-of winners will be featured in the Hall of Fame.
    Furthermore, @Coded Games will choose the theme for the next Jam.

    Community prizes

    Please don't forget to check if you aren't eligible for one of community prizes contributed to this Jam's pool, and poke the prize givers if necessary!
    (if you are the one giving away the prize, especially the one for specific entries, please contact those who should receive the prize)

    The GMC Jam is officially finished!
     
  12. The M

    The M Member

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    Damn, so close to the top three. ;)

    Anyways, Congratulations to the winners, and to everyone for participating!
     
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  13. Alexx

    Alexx Member

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  14. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Jam Buddy GMC Elder

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    Congratulations everyone! Nice work :)
     
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  15. The-any-Key

    The-any-Key Member

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    Congratulations @Coded Games.
    [​IMG]
    Congrats @Storyteller, you gain more experience when losing compare to the winner. And you also get a prize.
    [​IMG]

    Prizes sent via PM.
     
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  16. Bentley

    Bentley Member

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    Your game was awesome.
     
  17. Cloaked Games

    Cloaked Games Member

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    Congrats everyone! I will make videos for the top 6 (because I was 5th, and I can't play that one), because I couldn't do reviews before.

    WE got 5th place and Best use of Theme, which is the best I've ever done on a game jam (that I programmed for. Doing music for JacobV last jam doesn't quite count. It was awesome, but I'm a programmer, and just sometimes a composer).
     
  18. penguin533

    penguin533 Member

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    This was a lot of fun! Great work guys!
     
  19. makas

    makas Member

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    congrats to everyone I hoped for a top 20 but 25 is pretty nice and a lot way better than my last 41th position :D I hope to get better on the next jam, congrats to all the amazing games the quality of this jam was higher than the usual I think :) and Im really impressed by all those that keep getting amazing games every jam... I hope one day being like you guys!
     
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  20. Bentley

    Bentley Member

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    ditto
     
  21. Bentley

    Bentley Member

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    Your game was very cool. I think in any other jam it would have been #1. There were just sooo many good entries. But yeah, I could have easily picked yours for first.
     
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  22. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member

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    Nice job everyone!

    Wow, the top two games were REALLY close. And like I've said a few times already... all of the top 10 games deserved to win.

    Also, best reviewer! Thanks a ton! No banner? : (
     
  23. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    Anyone know what happened to Ragnarak?
     
  24. Gravedust

    Gravedust Member

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    Whoa, I was not expecting to get anywhere near the top 3, I am honestly a little bit in shock. O_O

    But surprise ranking aside I am totally thrilled that so many people had fun playing the game! (sorry though to the people who had technical difficulties ) and it was great reading the feedback that I got from so many people; other people picking up on some of my design reasoning/goals was totally wonderful, and it was instructive to see the points where my plans broke down. So a sincere thank-you to everyone who left a review.

    I'm sorry that I couldn't do reviews myself, my schedule has been a steaming, smelly disaster. I have played most of the games (but not all of them) and if/when I get time I will try to get back to their makers with some thoughts and/or appreciation. There was a some REALLY good stuff.

    As far as Boss Beat, based on the number of reviewers who said they really enjoyed it and some feedback from non-GMC friends, (and also because it is legit a lot of fun to work on) I will be continuing to develop it to at least the point of a polished demo.

    Currently the plan is to add additional animation to the bosses and player, fix some UI problems, improve event synching with the fight songs, rework the current fights (VIA a little bit, VIKS a lot, especially the 2nd half where I was running out of time. -_-), improve high-score tracking and announcements, add bullets capable of variable behaviors post-launch, add some additional effects and particles, add subtle SFX for hitting the boss, new boss movement and attack behaviors, and at least 2 more fights. (If you are a composer and would like to donate a track for one of the fights, (uptempo, leaning on the electronic/chiptune side of things, 2-5min duration) feel free to hit me in PMs.)

    There should be a thread popping up in the Work In Progress forum in maybe a few weeks.
    (…possibly longer, as my dev rate is pretty glacial these days. -_- )

    But thanks very much everyone, and special thanks to the folks who put this thing on, I'm so glad I was able to take part. Hope I can be around for the next one. :)
     
  25. Coded Games

    Coded Games Member

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    Well, I won. I'm honestly blown away that I even was in the top 3, let alone 1st. This is only my 2nd GMC Jam and I'm really glad that people liked my game. I feel kind of bad that I didn't get around to reviewing and playing everyone else's games.

    Anyways, I have the summer off so I plan on continuing to work on this game. I have ideas to change around combat that I discussed earlier here. I think this might be my first PC-oriented game and I may try going for a release on Steam. We'll see how things go.

    Finally, I really look forward to the next Jam. I've already started thinking of ideas for a theme. I will definitely try choosing something that allows a lot of room for creativity but will also challenges you all as game designers.
     
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  26. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    Congrats @Gravedust for winning the prize I offered (a free game) by being the lucky winner of the random draw from the top half ranked entries. Sent a PM.

    -
    In other news, I haven't even played a single game :(. I was really stressed due to some life stuff that came up and the thought of playing and ranking games felt burdensome, so I opted out. Plus I picked up a couple shifts at work.
    I'm actually about to play a few games right now though. Maybe I'll give some post-jam feedback, if anyone would like that?
     
  27. Coded Games

    Coded Games Member

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    var, trg601, IndianaBones and 4 others like this.
  28. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    Coded Games likes this.
  29. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    Many thanks. I'll probably never use them, but I might check out the inventory stuff. I have this weird thing about not wanting to use other people's code assets, due to a fear of not knowing the code as well as I'd like, having the assurance of knowing exactly what my game logic is doing.
     
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  30. Coded Games

    Coded Games Member

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    If you win a Jam are you allowed to participate in the next one? It seems like knowing the theme beforehand would be a moderate advantage.

    I don't know how these things work.
     
  31. Cloaked Games

    Cloaked Games Member

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    Yes. You do get an advantage. Perks of winning. Maybe that's why I got best use of theme.
     
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  32. Wraithious

    Wraithious Member

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    Congratz to all who entered and to the winners! This was a great jam, altho there were some flaws in my game I'm still very happy with it, but I had some time and polished it quite a bit and it is wayyyy better, check it out if your interested, I'm going to stream some game play of it in a few minutes on twitch so come join me if you're bored, Here's a link to the updated game exe, and my twitch channel is here.
    EDIT: and now that I've finished streaming you can watch it here.

    Major changes/bug fixes are:
    scrolling intro text with story, game controlls and credits
    mapped left stick for movement instead of right stick on gamepad (d-pad still mapped as well)
    created menu with music/sfx on/off, music/sfx volume sliders, save, load, equip health potion, equip manna potion, equip earthquake spell, equip lightning bolt spell
    bosses that were supposed to move now move
    bosses sometimes drop manna or health potions when defeated
    boss magic spells fixed/enhanced
    player has quake and bolt spells now
    player can equip and use health and manna potions now
    painstakingly redid all the borders, if you can't move somewhere it's because there's obviously a castle wall or some other huge easilly visible reason you can't go there
    created blockade barriers so the character can't wander through the air
    in game text now appears as it should (was dissappearing too fast to see in most cases, now if you win or lose you will be notified)
    Character has clothes and win or lose animation
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  33. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member

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    Ok but seriously, can I get a banner image for Best Reviewer?

    There was a banner given for jams 1 thru 7 so it'd mean a lot to me if I got one too...
     
  34. Gravedust

    Gravedust Member

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    I can get a lot done on a lunch break. ;) so until an official version exists:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And thank you for your efforts. :)

    ..I definitely did not misspell your name, either. >.>
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  35. ItsBiju

    ItsBiju Member

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    Hope more people follow your lead
     
  36. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member

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    Oh wow, that's awesome! I will wear this loud and proud :)

    And congrats on a second-place finish!
     
  37. Gravedust

    Gravedust Member

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    Thanks! Glad you like the banner. :)

    ...Sorry you had UI troubles with Boss Beats, BTW. I believe that happened because the actual game window is really only 512x512 at 2x scale, and I drew my UI in the void outside the window, basically. For speed's sake I hardcoded it to work at 1920x1080, so that probably clipped off the left and right sides for some folks. :(

    Should be fixed for the next version.
     
  38. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    I am SO sorry for the delay... He's the "official" trophy banner... Apologies @Ralucipe !

    [​IMG]
     
  39. Ziberteck

    Ziberteck Member

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    Not gonna lie, a little salty about placing under drop the bass. It was a joke game.
     
  40. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member

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    Yeah, it sucks that a minor technical issue got in the way so much. It was still a really nice game though.

    Thanks!

    Joke game or not, the voters have deemed it to be a more entertaining / higher quality entry. Being a joke game isn't an automatic disqualifier; if it provides tangible entertainment value and exhibits some degree of polish, then there's no reason it shouldn't earn a decent place.

    Last Knight wasn't a bad game. But you didn't tell the player any of the controls, or any critical details to playing the game at all, which meant many reviewers couldn't properly enjoy the game. I saw another Jam reviewer say somewhere (sorry I don't remember who): If you program 13 amazing bosses, but I can't make it past the first one, then I'm going to judge your game as if it only had one boss.
     
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  41. Ziberteck

    Ziberteck Member

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    Well it be fair with a lot of the reasons that people don't understand my game was user error. Apparently reading a 5 line read me was to taxing, lol.
     
  42. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    Any of us can have oversights, both devs and users/players. I don't think you should be so quick to claim user error.

    -

    Firstly, if your readme is necessary, it's a good idea to follow the suggestion which is given in the first post of the games topic:
    -

    Secondly, a game dev can easily unknowingly assume potential players will think as they do in certain regards, but this is a mistake which can really hurt a game in a lot of ways.

    Why?

    Because each of us (devs, gamers, everyone) have over time built up deep patterns of thought, which come from the information and experiences we've had as we've grown up. Each person grows up around different things and gets different information and experiences, so all of our brains vary in not just information but in actual thought processes which determine how we deal with the information we take in. This is also the reason for "culture shock" being a thing, just to give an example to think on which demonstrates what I've said here.

    Now, closing in on the point, how we think determines how we view things and even how we act. This is where we can start applying it to understand how gamers will play your game and why it's a mistake to not acknowledge that other players can try to play your game in a very unexpected manner.

    This is a big reason why player feedback is potentially priceless. I say "potentially", because if we're not conscious of the above described phenomena, we can write off other people's thinking or actions as faulty when it doesn't follow our own patterns of thought, thus nullifying the feedback, instead of taking a real proper look at the situation, trying to understand why a person thinks as they do and to be objective about changing the game to make sense from all these other perspectives as well.

    I should probably sum this up because it's getting long and I'm probably spending too much time writing it (my day is going away and I have tons left to do today..:confused:).

    -

    I guess what I'm trying to zero in on is that good game design must take into account the varying thoughts and approaches of the target audience. If the game doesn't, I'd argue it's a flaw with the game, not the users, since it hasn't properly catered to the audience. You have to meet people where they're at.

    I wish I was better with words, but I'll just leave it at that and hope it comes across in the clear and positive manner I'm wanting.
     
  43. Ziberteck

    Ziberteck Member

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    I can and do confidently say that the user error was the issue. I had people play the game without any of my input or coaching and they figured it out pretty quickly.

    The criticism would be fine if. It was legitimate, but most of the complaints were pretty petty or born from just being to dang lazy try and figure out a really easy boss fight.

    The game had many flaws but not the ones most people called out.

    Actual issues:
    The game was to easy.
    The boss didn't have enough variety in attacks.
    The cannon activation was pointless. (people acknowledged this bad design aspect.)
    There's a bug I missed that can kill the player of they jump into a block that only has a 1 block gap.
    The music could have been better.
    Run button wasn't needed since there was never a reason to walk.

    Stupid complaints:

    Couldn't figure out the controls.
    Didn't know how to take down the bosses shield. The 2nd charge attack does that.
    (the read me goes over that, I don't know why people used that <annoying> player instead of just opening each games folder instead)
    People not realizing that jump height is based on momentum.
    Sprite size being small. You can resize the game.


    Granted I know this is just a silly little for fun competition made by armatures. But, it would be nice to have people treat the submitted games with respect.



    Mod Edit: Post edited. We are an INCLUSIVE community here and we don't like people using certain words with very negative or offensive connotations. Please take care with how you word your comments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2018
  44. Zodaris

    Zodaris Member

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    To be 100% fair here, you put a space between "read" and "me" so the jam player wasn't able to recognize it. And given that there were 53 entries, it is really silly to demand that voters check the folder of each game looking for information instead of just playing through using the player. The result is that very few voters saw your readme, and as such, didn't know the information it held. On top of that, due to the "readme" being part of the game itself (in this case achieved through providing necessary information) it can very well play a roll in the scoring. The mistake of putting in a space in "readme" is akin to some bug in the game itself. The "readme" isn't some holy artifact, everything put into the folder that you submit for the jam is put under the knife. And if by some misunderstanding the "readme" doesn't show up, then that means that is a valid issue people can take with it.

    TL;DR: It's your mistake that made it so most voters didn't even know there was a readme file, and there are so many entries it's silly to demand that people check every folder for something that doesn't show up in the jam player.



    Anyways, back to more the wholesome main topic. Thanks to everyone who voted! Glad so many of you liked my game! 12th place is the highest I've ever placed and I'm super stoked by that! Maybe next time I'll get into that sweet top ten list. (Or maybe even top 5?? Who knows!)
     
    Ralucipe likes this.
  45. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    @Ziberteck No, what's stupid is a 7 second charge time without any proper indication that you are still charging.
     
  46. Coded Games

    Coded Games Member

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    Jun 20, 2016
    Posts:
    382
    It kind of sucks what this topic has turned into, but one super important lesson I hope that @Ziberteck can get out of this is that regardless of whatever you are designing; the user is ALWAYS right.

    User error does not exist. If someone runs into a problem, it is the designers fault.
     
    Ralucipe and mimusic like this.
  47. Ziberteck

    Ziberteck Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Posts:
    23
    That's a really stupid philosophy.
    At some point a person has to take personal responsibility for figuring out how something works.
    If open fruity loops music editor and can't figure out how to make music does that make it a bad program?
    I'de hope you say no.

    I won't concede that stupidity of the users makes a product bad. If you can't figure out something as simple as controls to a game and how to use them, when there are so few possible inputs, that says more about the user than the program.

    I can't respect people who would take such a <silly> stance. You people are a joke and you have no business in a field that requires logic and critical thinking skills.


    MOD EDIT: Post edited. We are an INCLUSIVE community here and we don't like people using certain words with very negative or offensive connotations. Please take care with how you word your comments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2018
  48. The M

    The M Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    236
    Easy now, we're all a friendly community wanting to help each other. You can disagree with their point of view but there's no need to get angry about it. ;)

    Think of it like this: it doesn't matter if a program is poorly designed or if the user is stupid, if they don't get it and quit then you've lost a potential costumer who could have enjoyed the game (or music tool or whatever). You could blame the user (they will likely blame you too because no-one likes to be wrong) but once they're gone, they're gone and are not likely to come back or recommend the game to others. That's what makes designing games so tricky because no matter what you do there will be people who don't get it, you just have to accept that (sometimes people miss the most obvious things which can be incredibly frustrating) and do what you can to make many people as possible enjoy it. :)
     
    Micah_DS likes this.
  49. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    480
    You need to develop a bit of thick skin for this. It's hard not to take it a bit personally, but we all have it happen to us. I was so sure my game was way too easy to pick up and play but the reviews I got made me realise that most people actually had problems with it and that's on me. It is very difficult to look at something and see past your own biases and experience, even getting a few friends to test is too small a sample size as I even found out for myself.
    Also, that fruityloops comparison would make more sense if you were talking about GMS itself... FL is a tool, not an end product.
     
    Ralucipe and Micah_DS like this.
  50. Ziberteck

    Ziberteck Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    Posts:
    23
    I'll retract my insults, but I stand by everything else I said.
     
    The M likes this.
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