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Thanks for not going subscription

R

Remaining Element

Guest
As some of you probably know, a certain program called Construct went subscription, something that I strongly dislike. It's not just me, the anouncement caused an incredible negative feedback on the forums, rarely seen somthing like that. It's not about the money but the principle, losing access to your software (and projects) when you don't keep paying over and over. I don't mind paying for updates or upgrades but I want to be able to decide when and what.

Anyways, after looking around I decided I visited Game Maker again. It's not new to me and I have to say the new version 2 looks pretty amazing so far.
 
FrostyCat

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
I'd suggest that you knock on wood now, because the subscription route is still on YoYo's table.

But again, I'd also suggest that you allow YoYo time to watch this case study unfold. Wise men learn from the lessons of others, fools from their own.
 
Roderick

Roderick

Member
Lots of companies are switching to a subscription model, and it's almost universally despised by the customer base.

I think that the the only ones that can do it and not suffer are ones that are big enough to have become industry standards, like Adobe with Flash, Photoshop, etc. but even then, there are numerous other softwares that can compete now, many with a one-time fee, or even completely free.

I don't think that the subscription model is going to be successful for the majority of software suites.
 
R

Remaining Element

Guest
@FrostyCat
I know I have to knock on wood, subscription models are the wet dreams of the capitalists.
The lesson that I learned from the Construct forums is that people don't buy
software once and expect updates for life. But most people hate beeing forced
into a subscription. It's another story if it's optional. I personally prefer
update packages that you can decide to buy or not.

@Roderick
It's true that a lot of companies are switching to subscription models. And there is
problem: One subscription may be fine but what about 10 ?

Regarding Adobe (Gosh, I hate that company) There is finally - atleast to me -
a real alternative to Photoshop and Illustrator: Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer.

Lonewollf might only pay 12$ a year, the default price for Photoshop and Lightroom is 12$ a month.
I prefer Affinity Photo 1 for 39$ forever.
 
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Shawn Basnett

Shawn Basnett

Discount Dev
Remaining Element said:
@Frosty Cat
I know I have to knock on wood, subscription models are the wet dreams of the capitalists.
The lesson that I learned from the Construct forums is that people don't buy
software once and expect updates for life. But most people hate beeing forced
into a subscription. It's another story if it's optional. I personally prefer
update packages that you can decide to buy or not.

@Roderick
It's true that a lot of companies are switching to subscription models. And there is
problem: One subscription may be fine but what about 10 ?

Regarding Adobe (Gosh, I hate that company) There is finally - atleast to me -
a real alternative to Photoshop and Illustrator: Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer.

Lonewollf might only pay 12$ a year, the default price for Photoshop and Lightroom is 12$ a month.
I prefer Affinity Photo 1 for 39$ forever.
Click to expand...
I'd rather just use GIMP. Open Source and works like a dream.
 
R

Remaining Element

Guest
I really tried to like Gimp, expanded it with plugins, even had it nicely themed but I don't like it for many reasons. Anyways, I don't want to go off topic.

I'm wondering: How does the Game Maker Community like GMS 2 so far ?
 
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rIKmAN

rIKmAN

Member
If GMS went subscription people would expect regular updates and fixes in a timely manner, two things which don't appear to be YYGs strongest points, so I don't think that model is sustainable for them at the moment.
Who's gonna pay a monthly subscription and then wait 3mths for a fix to their problem?

I support a couple of things on Patreon, but I get monthly updates, new builds and reported bugs and issues are usually fixed by the time I get that new build each month.

It's still in beta so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, but I have seen quite a few replies along the lines of "file a suggestion", "file a bug report", "it's on our list" and "hopefully we'll get to it" which give me flashbacks of GMS1, but time will tell.

anamo games said:



just bought GM:studio 2 and so happy :)
Click to expand...
Awesome, you ballin' son! :)

Lonewolff said:
Bummer. Ours is all web based through the intranet. Takes two minutes to get a license.
Click to expand...
Am I right in assuming you a current student and so qualify for all these free / discounted software through your Uni and your status as a student?
 
A

Ampersand

Guest
Yeah a subscription model works better for a "finished" product. You can expect the experience to work correctly from one month to the next. But GM:S has not really seen a time where they can call it a finished product. This is why Office 365 has done so well.
 
Dan1

Dan1

Member
Just chipping in my two cents - if GMS:2 is subscription, there's gonna be a lot more people hanging on to GMS rather than upgrading - if they want everyone to eventually move over, they can't expect us to subscribe when we've got GMS without a subscription

Or at least if subscription is the only option - rent OR buy, that's not as bad an option
 
rIKmAN

rIKmAN

Member
Lonewolff said:
Wow! Mass deletion of posts by the moderators.
Click to expand...
Crazy right?
Leave all the uninformative threads titled "What's wrong?", "My game is broke" and pointless posts that say "My player won't move, help!" and delete ours, makes sense...

Ampersand said:
Yeah a subscription model works better for a "finished" product. You can expect the experience to work correctly from one month to the next. But GM:S has not really seen a time where they can call it a finished product. This is why Office 365 has done so well.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean, but it doesn't have to be a finished product - the ones I support on Patreon certainly aren't, they are in development.

However to support with a monthly pledge I expect some sort of schedule to be kept to, development and plans to be transparent etc, and although there is obviously some leeway the creator also has a duty to keep to those schedules and plans - even if any changes each month are minor tweaks, I still get a monthly build and see some progress.

A subscription model gives the creator a regular monthly income stream with which to continue to develop the product, and as such I expect a regular monthly update and new build each month to see that my money is being used to develop the product.

Once that stops happening (or doesn't happen at all) a subscription model is completely the wrong path to take - which YYG have obviously realised based on the pricing tiers currently in place for GMS2.

Either way is fine, but each comes with it's own set of pros/cons and expectations from the end user.
 
Nocturne

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Lonewolff said:
Wow! Mass deletion of posts by the moderators. Does YYG feel threatened about people having access to full operating systems and AAA graphics utilities, that don't even clash with GMS (in fact they compliment it).
Click to expand...
rIKmAN said:
Leave all the uninformative threads titled "What's wrong?", "My game is broke" and pointless posts that say "My player won't move, help!" and delete ours, makes sense...
Click to expand...
Come on guys, your posts were off topic, and were essentially a convo between a couple of you (which is best left reserved for PMs). ;)
 
RichHopefulComposer

RichHopefulComposer

Member
Nocturne said:
Come on guys, your posts were off topic, and were essentially a convo between a couple of you (which is best left reserved for PMs). ;)
Click to expand...
Next time I see you make a joke in a thread, I'm going to drop a screen cap of this for you with "please delete this post" under it.
Heheheh. :p

Nah, probably not. I'll forget. Oh well. X'D
Was it you who deleted all the posts in this thread? I thought topics were allowed to kind of wander a bit around here. I'm surprised if it was you. I thought it'd be one of the new moderators.
 
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R

Remaining Element

Guest
Ampersand said:
Yeah a subscription model works better for a "finished" product. You can expect the experience to work correctly from one month to the next. But GM:S has not really seen a time where they can call it a finished product. This is why Office 365 has done so well.
Click to expand...
I disagree, subscription, if at all, makes sense if a product is not finished and needs to be expanded and developed further. Then paying again and again makes some sense. However, continues updates that you need to pay are what I prefer. Because I can decide if and when I update.

rIKmAN said:
A subscription model gives the creator a regular monthly income stream with which to continue to develop the product, and as such I expect a regular monthly update and new build each month to see that my money is being used to develop the product.
Click to expand...
It could be the other way round: Companies deliver good updates that people can then buy. For example, Steinberg releases one big update per year for Cubase. You can skip updates and continue to use an older version or buy them. You don't lose access to your Software, like, say, Construct 3 by Scirra.
 
S

sogun

Guest
Remaining Element said:
As some of you probably know, a certain program called Construct went subscription, something that I strongly dislike. It's not just me, the anouncement caused an incredible negative feedback on the forums, rarely seen somthing like that. It's not about the money but the principle, losing access to your software (and projects) when you don't keep paying over and over. I don't mind paying for updates or upgrades but I want to be able to decide when and what.

Anyways, after looking around I decided I visited Game Maker again. It's not new to me and I have to say the new version 2 looks pretty amazing so far.
Click to expand...
Thank You for not choosing the DOA subscription method!
 
F

Forester

Guest
Tbh, I think that a game development platform or program that is widely used for indie games should definitely not go sub based. Unless there's a free version that is still solid (like gm8 Lite) it will seriously discourage newcomers and casual developers looking to get more serious. A lot of us started making games before we were even out of school. We didn't have jobs, or a regular source of income. For some of us, GM eventually became our source of income.
That being said, making a subscription based program would make it impossible for little Johnny to ask for GMS as a Christmas gift. It would make it harder to get serious about creating something beautiful.
 
D

DigitalProphet

Guest
Subscriptions...especially something like $99 subs must go away.
Rather keep on updating the software once a year or every 2 years and ask an upgrade fee.
Subs are usually tied to the authentication process and if you dont pay you cant even open the software to get access to YOUR creations.

Blender is so strong today beasue Autodesk and all the players went subs.
Gimp and Affinity Designer as well. I was a Photoshop user and after month 2 of the subs I quit PS and went and bought Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo.

I suppose in all this this is why Unreal 4 engine's model makes sense. You dont pay till you make money. And then it's fair.
But they have other ways of making an income other than from their engine.
 
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D

DigitalProphet

Guest
But the day you work and not study ...then its when you really need it and then you have to pay.
They hook you in...study the thing for free...then you have a degree using their package then they make you pay and you are kinda "forced" to because thats what you know.

Also the student versions arent allowed to be making money with them.
If thats what you got. (I don't know your situation) but the comment still stands.
 
J

jb skaggs

Guest
Ive been around computers since the 1970's and things go in cycles. When I left the navy everything was purchase plus license fee- they even had physical lock boxes that plugged in to your computer so if you did not pay monthly or yearly fees then the program would not run. Then in the mid 90's all that changed to shareware and one time purchases plus upgrades, then in the early 2000's the whole free to use for basic and pay for deluxe business model became popular. then around the late 2007 or 2008 Gaming started to really push month subscriptions ( I remember becoming quite upset that Final Fantasy went to a paid monthly MMO) around that same time, Linux really started to become popular and more free alternatives became available. And now I see the cycle starting over- except no locks needed. You don't pay you cant log in to server and use your software.

In the philosophy and political science arenas there has been several discussions on when internet and cloud access will be tied credit score, political affiliation, or social caste.

I prefer a one time payment and then buy upgrades. I do not trust "must be connected to internet" business models, as I have lived in places where the internet service provider would block access to many classes of websites. This is still rolling around mostly unseen in the US govt, as to who and what can connect to what online services.

Lastly I prefer a model that once I pay for it there are no other hidden fees or legal loopholes. Years ago I had a friend who purchased a product by Google, and later on found out he did not own the product he created with that product. Google did.

So I agree with the OP I am glad GM is not subscription.
 
J

jb skaggs

Guest
Nocturne said:
Lol! I remember getting my first Cubase dongle and thinking "wtf?"...



EDIT: LOL! It appears that they still use them too!
Click to expand...
the brand we had on our engineering software was SENTINAL- I was offered a big bonus by the company I worked for if I could hack them and remove tthem. So I called the company that made the software and split the bonus with them and they gave me a code to remove them. ;)
 
D

DigitalProphet

Guest
Lonewolff said:
Judge how ever you like. But, I am pretty confident I have been gainfully employed many years longer than yourself ;)
Click to expand...
Hey I wasn't judging at all - I think you are taking my post up the wrong way. Just saying if one uses a student Maya or Photoshop for instance you are not allowed to charge money for the work you produce with it normally - in the licence terms of use. That's why it's cheaper.
So...in saying that it's not always the best idea to go for a cheap sub over something you pay outright for.

I've been employed and self employed a while....so don't be too confident. I remember times when there was phones you had to dial with your finger and wait for it to go round and round. If someone had lots of zeros in the number you didn't like calling them :D and Alta Vista :eek:

Any case point t is...down with subs.
 
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J

jb skaggs

Guest
What of some one tied the ownership of the games' royalties / copyright etc to a subscription?

That has happened in other industries such as books or music.
 
D

DigitalProphet

Guest
Yeah it's Unreal.
But the thing is Unreal is now free to use with source.
Unity you don't get full source ever as far as I am aware?

But if you go look at the "other engine " forum you will see how bad the subscription model is going down over there. I'm an owner and I came over to Gamemaker Studio 2 now because of that predominantly. People are not happy about it since it's also expensive and you cannot get to your content if you haven't paid.

I think Unity and Unreal has the right business model too. I can accept that if I make a certain amount of money that the engine and the basis of my game seeing the light - I give them a share of that.
But this paying constantly while tinkering or trying g to make something and learning etc just does not work well for struggling indies and esp for people from other countries.

So far Yoyo games has the right idea....I am worried that it's something that's on the table.
Money talks though. If they do that and make more money than they do now well...then they will do it.
I can see the user base shrinking a whole lot though. It's not like there aren't other options.

At this stage I can't wait for the Mac editor and I'm close to forking g over the money for Gamemaker Studio 2

@Lonewolf yup...late, late 70's :)
 
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