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So is this forum dying?

Discussion in 'Community Chat' started by Schwee, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. nacho_chicken

    nacho_chicken Member

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    The heart of the forums is the programming section. It's the most active section of the site by far, and it has been for as long as I can remember. With time, internet culture is changing. Most people nowadays don't view forums as places to discuss things; they view them as places to seek out tech support. They'd rather discuss things on Discord or Twitter or Reddit. I don't really like this change, but it is what it is.
     
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  2. Catastrophe

    Catastrophe Member

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    @RichHopefulComposer Well I just added one :D I think the WIP section isn't used as much since professional game developers would see it as a waste of time given the amount of traffic vs effort, and people using GM are getting older and more serious about it. Looking at the lifetime views of some of these that are years old, you can get this amount in a few tweets and it's mostly other developers who probably won't buy your game. I think it's at least worth making a post, though, but I guess I'll find out. I can't see any major commercial game made by game maker posting in creations/WIP which is surprising, you'd think it's a great source of feedback at least.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  3. MaGicBush

    MaGicBush Member

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    I don't agree with this. The steam forums are extremely active on many games, as are blizzard forums that I visit often. I think it's because most people that wanted game maker already own it by now and have posted their games in the WIP forum at this point in the current versions life. I doubt many successful devs even bother if they are commercial.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  4. Catastrophe

    Catastrophe Member

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    I don't really buy that. If you weren't here in the days of yoyogames sandbox, you don't know the meaning of the word subpar xD And it was pretty active then.

    I think it really is a matter of people just growing up: The cost of GMS2 is now $100 with no permanent free demo, compared with GMS1 having a permanent free demo, and pre-studio being $40. This means the WIP forums is more a developer forum, than a place to find players.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  5. Misty

    Misty Member

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    Oh, I was browsing YYG Sandbox back in the day.

    Call those games crap if you will, but at least they had spirit.
     
  6. nacho_chicken

    nacho_chicken Member

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    The difference is you don't need to create a new account to access the Steam or Blizzard forums if you're already playing games on those platforms. Never underestimate the apathy of the average user towards creating new accounts.

    EDIT: Even then, looking at a Steam discussion page for a random game, over 50% of topics are just about support/issues.
    screenshot(11).png
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  7. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    I wasn't talking about how much traffic each forum got, though. I was talking about which forum generated the most energy for new and existing users. The programming section will be the last place to die out because people will always need tech support, but it doesn't generate any hype for GM or the GMC, in my opinion.

    You're right that people have spread out to social media, and that's exactly my point: without GM developers posting on the GMC, it feels less and less like GM developers are a community, and more like we're just a bunch of mercenaries trying to hype our own games.

    I don't like it, either!
     
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  8. Misty

    Misty Member

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    Well we aren't allowed to post what we feel about games, so it sucks the fun out of everything. Everything is like hyper-marxist, "every game is awesome kind" of thing. I say hyper-marxist, because this far beyond even marx, marx didn't want equality of outcome he wanted equality of opportunity, I dont think he literally wanted everyone to be the same and have the same opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it seems like the same attitude of how modern schools are like giving everyone medals and banning recces. When everyone is special noone will be

    I don't think its in of itself, the mercenary attitude that's ruining the hype. I think its that it feels disingenuous, like a salesperson at your door, like they don't really believe in their own product and are just trying to make a buck. I think if they believed in their own product more and gave it their all, it wouldn't give that hollow salesman type feeling while reading those topics.
     
  9. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    Yes, you are. What you aren't allowed to do is post massive opinionated rants that leave no room for discussion and then attack anyone and everyone that disagrees with you... ;)
     
  10. Misty

    Misty Member

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    They attacked me first but I know how society doesnt allow self-defense anymore, online and offline.

    Also I remember you deleting some comments I made in some game, because you didn't think it was "review-quality" enough because I only said it was similar to double dash, but didn't give a proper review of the game. So as I said, fun posts not allowed.
     
  11. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    I don't know what posts you're talking about specifically, but I've always felt like my honest opinions on games were allowed here. This forum is actually pretty lax when it comes to allowing borderline posts, I think. Users are usually allowed to sort things out themselves and post mostly whatever they'd like, from what I've seen.

    Some topics are pretty blatant advertisements, I agree. I think there are a lot of people just having fun showing their games too, though.
     
  12. MaGicBush

    MaGicBush Member

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    That really depends on what game you look at. Games I play generally people are chatting about about it, asking questions, or are off topic somewhat. My point is just that forums are not dying and they are definitely still used. Social media.. I hate it(and it is the cause of a lot of current issues, but we can avoid that topic here). Unfortunately it's easy and used by many, but mostly just for advertising, bashing others, or for short "status updates. " People will still want to use forums to debate in more detail, and get more involved discussions/reviews, or for tech support.

    Having Said all of that I have noticed a lot of social media lingo and attitude makes its way into forums any more though. People will post very short topics or replies on steam or other forums I frequent. They then disappear or keep trolling. I didn't notice this type of behavior near as much a few years ago. One day forums may be gone, but not while our generation is around and people want to have legitimate discussions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  13. Misty

    Misty Member

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    I have yet to read any bad or controversial reviews in the WIP or Creations section. My comment was deleted and it was actually a positive comment. Maybe you can link me some examples so I can see such things exist?
     
  14. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    Maybe you can stop making this topic about you and contact the user via PM instead of in this topic where it has nothing to do with what is being discussed? ;)
     
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  15. Misty

    Misty Member

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    This has nothing to do with me, or some comment I made a long time ago that I don't care about, stop projecting/interjecting.

    I asked him to show me examples of bad and/or controversial comments and reviews, to disprove my statements about the hypermarxist culture.
     
  16. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    @Misty: The forums aren't "hyper marxist"; they're just friendly. You're not going to find many posts here that just flat out say "this game is terrible," because as developers, most of us have a moderate baseline level of respect for one another borne from the understanding of how much study and work goes into even mediocre games. Even if most members *didn't* have this basic respect for other members, most of us here are around the same skill level - not much use calling the kettle black, hahah!

    Because of that, I don't have any examples on hand for you. I've been on the gmc for a long time though, and I've seen (and been a part of) some nasty arguments. The mods almost always allow it, unless the comments get *really* out of hand, completely hijack a thread, or become a constant pattern for certain members.

    Again, I don't know what posts you're referring to, though!
     
  17. Misty

    Misty Member

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    doesnt seem too friendly to me, sometimes ill make a topic then mods delete my topic because i get swarmed by vicious trolls who get mad and start being insulting to me just because they dont agree with my claims in my topic. then i get blamed for standing up for myself against the trolls because self-defense isn't allowed in society, online or offline. Society is engineered this way.

    and in real nature life, there are tigers and things. And imagine how boring would it be if every once and a while, a tiger did not attack the herd. Imagine if there was no natural selection and every deer was awesome, with no tigers to tell the deer that maybe it ain't so. Well that is like the WIP and Creations section. There isnt one negative comment at all or anything, and people are made to believe there are no standards whatsoever, that you can just create anything and put it in the WIP and Creations. That is what I mean by hypermarxist.
     
  18. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    :D
     
  19. Mert

    Mert Member

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    The forum is not dying, but you know: When your car does not go fast, your mind wishes to buy a better car ;)
     
  20. Misty

    Misty Member

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    You are a giant hypocrit, you just edited one of my post for accusing another member of accusations and here you are accusing me.

    I do no such thing of the sort, the only "attacks" I do are in self-defense against vicious insulting trolls.

    I'll have you know I demand an apology.
     
  21. Zizka

    Zizka Member

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    I don't understand "hyper marxism" here. Where does the class struggle fit in, I don't understand.

    Are you saying that the forum is dying because people are not allowed to say negative things about other people's games? I'm just trying to understand.
     
  22. Catastrophe

    Catastrophe Member

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    I thought this forum was literally hitler. Isn't that the opposite of marxism?
     
  23. Misty

    Misty Member

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    marx hated jews so no. And i use the word "hypermarxism" because the way people use the word "marxism" i dont think is really much like marx himself.
     
  24. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    I'm not "accusing" you of anything I'm merely replying to you. YOU brought up the subject of your posts being deleted. YOU claim it's for reasons other than the ones I outlined in the reply to YOUR post. I merely reiterated the same reply, as that's the real reason your topics were closed, deleted, edited, etc... So, don't go all indignant on me for replying to your publicly made accusations about moderators deleting your topics. If you'd wanted me to reply privately you'd have contacted me privately. :)

    Now, can we forget the drama and keep this ON topic. We're not here to discuss Misty, we're here to discuss the forum... although that said, I'm not sure there's much more to say on the topic....
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  25. matharoo

    matharoo Udemy Instructor

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    I think you might wanna ask that here.
     
  26. IGameArt

    IGameArt Member

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    LOL @matharoo, that's morbid as heck. Haha
     
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  27. Misty

    Misty Member

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    What I am saying is on-topic. Either you are fair and impartial or not. The examples I give were about me yes, in a discussion about the forum policies and behavoirs itself. By claiming this is off-topic is to some how say that me (and you) are somehow outside the forum itself, that my circumstances are somehow not impartial and that your treatment of me is somehow outside the realms of the forum itself. Like how you accused me of attacking people in my threads, even though it was clearly a case of self-defense against viscous trolls attacking me first. So either your treatment of me is part of how the forums operate or it isn't. Saying discussion of my circumstances is somehow offtopic, implies that my experience is somehow outside the bounds of how the forums operate.

    Correlation does not always equal causation. If you browse the WIP and Creations section you will notice only positive reviews and no critical opinions. I asked for someone to disprove me and am still waiting for proof that I am wrong about this.

    Gaming, as a whole, is about embracing nature and a sense of freedom that modern society does not allow. So it doesn't really fit the tone or spirit of gaming, with the lack of any real critique. There is no sense that a game you post, might possibly get a harsh critique. So there is no sense of nature anymore, or a sense that there are implicit standards. It feels more like a hyper-marxist thing of "everybody's a winner" kind of deal. And it kinda sucks the competitive fun out of things and doesn't inspire people to give it their all, there isn't a sense of jungle-tier natural filtering systems to condition them to fit the movement of darwinisim. This results in a kind of stagnation. A second effect is that it also causes the amount of hype and reviews to die down. People in general are afraid of giving honest opinions about games, and it ends up, sadly, with games getting no replies at all. This results in the owner of the topic repeatedly bumping their topic over and over.
     
  28. matharoo

    matharoo Udemy Instructor

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    .. is this thread dying anytime soon?
     
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  29. Misty

    Misty Member

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    Well not while I am posting in it it seems.
     
  30. matharoo

    matharoo Udemy Instructor

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    frick
     
  31. Zizka

    Zizka Member

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    Ah ok so you meant hyper-marxist in the sense of everybody's a winner. I never got that outlook from reading Marx but I think I understand better what you mean. In your conception of things, if everything's good, then nothing is.

    I'm under the impression your mind is already set about this which is certainly your prerogative.

    I personally think it might be a case of: how can I say something which I don't like about what's being shown without:
    a) being hurtful or
    b) put the person on the defensive

    The following is an example of criticism (I took it from a game in the W.I.P. section, Blackhill):
    It's useful criticism as the dev can then improve on his game if he/she considers that the text is indeed too small. It's not harsh but it gets the idea across.

    I agree that there is a lot of positive which might come across as saccharine... but why not. Harsh criticism might lead to flame wars or discourage people from sharing their games altogether, which wouldn't help to keep the forum alive.

    Just something to keep in mind. I've never seen a forum shutdown because people were overly nice to each other. I've seen the opposite however.
     
  32. Misty

    Misty Member

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    That is why I made up the word hyper-marxist. I think people these days throw the word "marxist" around as a pejorative but don't really know that it isn't really anything like marx's idea of the concepts. It just feels hyper-marxist like everyone is tiptoeing and afraid to speak their minds about the games in the WIP and Creations forum. This leads to lack of hype and lack of replies, and the endless self-bumping that we see in these games.

    The other thing you said, its all about balance. Too little conflict leads to weakness, too much also leads to destruction. Without natural selection mechanisms, organisms will proliferate, stagnate, and become diseased. On the other hand, too much conflict can lead to cataclysm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  33. RefresherTowel

    RefresherTowel Member

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    Eh, bringing good ol' Karl into this just seems stupid IMO. If I browse the WIP section, I'm far more likely to look at games that interest me. Then, if I feel inclined to give a comment, it's usually criticism of some sort, but I do the compliment sandwich with it because why the hell would I not: compliment > criticism > compliment. I know how many hours goes into learning to program. I know how wildly difficult it is when you're starting out and just trying to piece things together. I know what it's like to make crap, buggy games but still want some input from other people to keep me inspired and creating. There's literally no reason for me to tear into another dev, especially when they're new (which is generally WHY the games are crappy). I find the idea that people being nice to each other is bad complete anathema.

    On-topic: As has been pointed out many times already, social media has smeared discussions across a wide variety of formats and places. It's completely understandable that the forums are less busy than they were in their hey day. But there's still interesting discussions that happen every week and that's good enough for me. If it was super active, I'd almost be guaranteed to miss some of them, so in a way, it's almost better that posts happen in a more chill way.
     
  34. Toque

    Toque Member

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    I think it’s hilarious the post asking if the forum is dying has over 70 comments.

    The op was specifically asking about the collaboration forums.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  35. TsukaYuriko

    TsukaYuriko Q&A Spawn Camper Forum Staff Moderator

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    I'd like to remind everyone that disagreements regarding a moderator's actions should be discussed with the respective moderator in a PM. Pointing fingers, "attacking" and "self-defense" are of no relevance and have no place in a public topic and are better kept to reports.


    Let's get this topic back on track.

    Since the Collaboration forum keeps being brought up as the central topic here... activity there may indeed appear to have decreased if you compare it to, say, the old GMC. I remember the old forum (then named Team Requests) had activity, as in new topics, on an almost daily basis at some point. If you actually checked what became of those topics a while later, though, you'd often see what looked like a wasteland of unfinished and abandoned projects, with the odd one that was still going or even ended up in WIP and beyond at some point.

    That's not because no such topics are being posted, though. The Collaboration forum is a moderator-approved forum now, so every topic that gets posted there needs to be previewed by forum staff, which is primarily my responsibility. The reality is that we still have an influx of topics comparable to the past, they just don't all actually end up going public. Here's a quick informational graphic to illustrate this process.

    The amount of such topics should have drastically decreased on the current GMC's version of this forum, as they are what led to the isolated death of the old Team Requests forum in the first place. I'd say the current Collaboration forum is much more alive than its previous incarnations, as the majority of topics that are approved are usually promising concepts, portfolios or job offers rather than revenue share ideas that get dropped after a week or two.

    The same applies to spam - you guys pretty much never see any, but we still ban a handful of spam bots on a daily basis. I'd even say that in the spam department, the GMC is as alive as it has never been before. :p


    ... and with that said, this topic pretty much arrived at its final destination.
     

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