So is this forum dying?

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The forums are probably dying because I don't post game updates anymore. ):

Edit: Seriously though, it feels like the WIP section's front page has had the same games on it all year, so it feels really boring and stale in there. Are the same projects always on the front page because no new games show in WIP, or because the people on the front page bump too much? I wonder if we could do anything to make the WIP section more lively? It feels like the heart of the forum to me; without new interesting games, how are we going to attract new members or inspire current ones?
The heart of the forums is the programming section. It's the most active section of the site by far, and it has been for as long as I can remember. With time, internet culture is changing. Most people nowadays don't view forums as places to discuss things; they view them as places to seek out tech support. They'd rather discuss things on Discord or Twitter or Reddit. I don't really like this change, but it is what it is.
 

Catastrophe

Member
@RichHopefulComposer Well I just added one :D I think the WIP section isn't used as much since professional game developers would see it as a waste of time given the amount of traffic vs effort, and people using GM are getting older and more serious about it. Looking at the lifetime views of some of these that are years old, you can get this amount in a few tweets and it's mostly other developers who probably won't buy your game. I think it's at least worth making a post, though, but I guess I'll find out. I can't see any major commercial game made by game maker posting in creations/WIP which is surprising, you'd think it's a great source of feedback at least.
 
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MaGicBush

Member
The heart of the forums is the programming section. It's the most active section of the site by far, and it has been for as long as I can remember. With time, internet culture is changing. Most people nowadays don't view forums as places to discuss things; they view them as places to seek out tech support. They'd rather discuss things on Discord or Twitter or Reddit. I don't really like this change, but it is what it is.
I don't agree with this. The steam forums are extremely active on many games, as are blizzard forums that I visit often. I think it's because most people that wanted game maker already own it by now and have posted their games in the WIP forum at this point in the current versions life. I doubt many successful devs even bother if they are commercial.
 
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Catastrophe

Member
Forum is dying because fun posts not allowed, also because most of the games being posted in WIP and creations are subpar

this is the Game Maker forum, so the forum kind of has to be carried by the games themselves
I don't really buy that. If you weren't here in the days of yoyogames sandbox, you don't know the meaning of the word subpar xD And it was pretty active then.

I think it really is a matter of people just growing up: The cost of GMS2 is now $100 with no permanent free demo, compared with GMS1 having a permanent free demo, and pre-studio being $40. This means the WIP forums is more a developer forum, than a place to find players.
 
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Misty

Member
I don't really buy that. If you weren't here in the days of yoyogames sandbox, you don't know the meaning of the word subpar xD And it was pretty active then.

I think it really is a matter of people just growing up: The cost of GMS2 is now $100 with no permanent free demo, compared with GMS1 having a permanent free demo, and pre-studio being $40. This means the WIP forums is more a developer forum, than a place to find players.
Oh, I was browsing YYG Sandbox back in the day.

Call those games crap if you will, but at least they had spirit.
 
I don't agree with this. The steam forums are extremely active on many games, as are blizzard forums that I visit often.
The difference is you don't need to create a new account to access the Steam or Blizzard forums if you're already playing games on those platforms. Never underestimate the apathy of the average user towards creating new accounts.

EDIT: Even then, looking at a Steam discussion page for a random game, over 50% of topics are just about support/issues.
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The heart of the forums is the programming section. It's the most active section of the site by far, and it has been for as long as I can remember. With time, internet culture is changing. Most people nowadays don't view forums as places to discuss things; they view them as places to seek out tech support. They'd rather discuss things on Discord or Twitter or Reddit. I don't really like this change, but it is what it is.
I wasn't talking about how much traffic each forum got, though. I was talking about which forum generated the most energy for new and existing users. The programming section will be the last place to die out because people will always need tech support, but it doesn't generate any hype for GM or the GMC, in my opinion.

You're right that people have spread out to social media, and that's exactly my point: without GM developers posting on the GMC, it feels less and less like GM developers are a community, and more like we're just a bunch of mercenaries trying to hype our own games.

I don't like it, either!
 

Misty

Member
I wasn't talking about how much traffic each forum got, though. I was talking about which forum generated the most energy for new and existing users. The programming section will be the last place to die out because people will always need tech support, but it doesn't generate any hype for GM or the GMC, in my opinion.

You're right that people have spread out to social media, and that's exactly my point: without GM developers posting on the GMC, it feels less and less like GM developers are a community, and more like we're just a bunch of mercenaries trying to hype our own games.

I don't like it, either!
Well we aren't allowed to post what we feel about games, so it sucks the fun out of everything. Everything is like hyper-marxist, "every game is awesome kind" of thing. I say hyper-marxist, because this far beyond even marx, marx didn't want equality of outcome he wanted equality of opportunity, I dont think he literally wanted everyone to be the same and have the same opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it seems like the same attitude of how modern schools are like giving everyone medals and banning recces. When everyone is special noone will be

I don't think its in of itself, the mercenary attitude that's ruining the hype. I think its that it feels disingenuous, like a salesperson at your door, like they don't really believe in their own product and are just trying to make a buck. I think if they believed in their own product more and gave it their all, it wouldn't give that hollow salesman type feeling while reading those topics.
 

Misty

Member
Yes, you are. What you aren't allowed to do is post massive opinionated rants that leave no room for discussion and then attack anyone and everyone that disagrees with you... ;)
They attacked me first but I know how society doesnt allow self-defense anymore, online and offline.

Also I remember you deleting some comments I made in some game, because you didn't think it was "review-quality" enough because I only said it was similar to double dash, but didn't give a proper review of the game. So as I said, fun posts not allowed.
 
Well we aren't allowed to post what we feel about games, so it sucks the fun out of everything. Everything is like hyper-marxist, "every game is awesome kind" of thing. I say hyper-marxist, because this far beyond even marx, marx didn't want equality of outcome he wanted equality of opportunity, I dont think he literally wanted everyone to be the same and have the same opinions. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it seems like the same attitude of how modern schools are like giving everyone medals and banning recces. When everyone is special noone will be
I don't know what posts you're talking about specifically, but I've always felt like my honest opinions on games were allowed here. This forum is actually pretty lax when it comes to allowing borderline posts, I think. Users are usually allowed to sort things out themselves and post mostly whatever they'd like, from what I've seen.

I don't think its in of itself, the mercenary attitude that's ruining the hype. I think its that it feels disingenuous, like a salesperson at your door, like they don't really believe in their own product and are just trying to make a buck. I think if they believed in their own product more and gave it their all, it wouldn't give that hollow salesman type feeling while reading those topics.
Some topics are pretty blatant advertisements, I agree. I think there are a lot of people just having fun showing their games too, though.
 

MaGicBush

Member
The difference is you don't need to create a new account to access the Steam or Blizzard forums if you're already playing games on those platforms. Never underestimate the apathy of the average user towards creating new accounts.

EDIT: Even then, looking at a Steam discussion page for a random game, over 50% of topics are just about support/issues.
That really depends on what game you look at. Games I play generally people are chatting about about it, asking questions, or are off topic somewhat. My point is just that forums are not dying and they are definitely still used. Social media.. I hate it(and it is the cause of a lot of current issues, but we can avoid that topic here). Unfortunately it's easy and used by many, but mostly just for advertising, bashing others, or for short "status updates. " People will still want to use forums to debate in more detail, and get more involved discussions/reviews, or for tech support.

Having Said all of that I have noticed a lot of social media lingo and attitude makes its way into forums any more though. People will post very short topics or replies on steam or other forums I frequent. They then disappear or keep trolling. I didn't notice this type of behavior near as much a few years ago. One day forums may be gone, but not while our generation is around and people want to have legitimate discussions.
 
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Misty

Member
I don't know what posts you're talking about specifically, but I've always felt like my honest opinions on games were allowed here. This forum is actually pretty lax when it comes to allowing borderline posts, I think. Users are usually allowed to sort things out themselves and post mostly whatever they'd like, from what I've seen.



Some topics are pretty blatant advertisements, I agree. I think there are a lot of people just having fun showing their games too, though.
I have yet to read any bad or controversial reviews in the WIP or Creations section. My comment was deleted and it was actually a positive comment. Maybe you can link me some examples so I can see such things exist?
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I have yet to read any bad or controversial reviews in the WIP or Creations section. My comment was deleted and it was actually a positive comment. Maybe you can link me some examples so I can see such things exist?
Maybe you can stop making this topic about you and contact the user via PM instead of in this topic where it has nothing to do with what is being discussed? ;)
 

Misty

Member
Maybe you can stop making this topic about you and contact the user via PM instead of in this topic where it has nothing to do with what is being discussed? ;)
This has nothing to do with me, or some comment I made a long time ago that I don't care about, stop projecting/interjecting.

I asked him to show me examples of bad and/or controversial comments and reviews, to disprove my statements about the hypermarxist culture.
 
@Misty: The forums aren't "hyper marxist"; they're just friendly. You're not going to find many posts here that just flat out say "this game is terrible," because as developers, most of us have a moderate baseline level of respect for one another borne from the understanding of how much study and work goes into even mediocre games. Even if most members *didn't* have this basic respect for other members, most of us here are around the same skill level - not much use calling the kettle black, hahah!

Because of that, I don't have any examples on hand for you. I've been on the gmc for a long time though, and I've seen (and been a part of) some nasty arguments. The mods almost always allow it, unless the comments get *really* out of hand, completely hijack a thread, or become a constant pattern for certain members.

Again, I don't know what posts you're referring to, though!
 

Misty

Member
@Misty: The forums aren't "hyper marxist"; they're just friendly. You're not going to find many posts here that just flat out say "this game is terrible," because as developers, most of us have a moderate baseline level of respect for one another borne from the understanding of how much study and work goes into even mediocre games. Even if most members *didn't* have this basic respect for other members, most of us here are around the same skill level - not much use calling the kettle black, hahah!

Because of that, I don't have any examples on hand for you. I've been on the gmc for a long time though, and I've seen (and been a part of) some nasty arguments. The mods almost always allow it, unless the comments get *really* out of hand, completely hijack a thread, or become a constant pattern for certain members.

Again, I don't know what posts you're referring to, though!
doesnt seem too friendly to me, sometimes ill make a topic then mods delete my topic because i get swarmed by vicious trolls who get mad and start being insulting to me just because they dont agree with my claims in my topic. then i get blamed for standing up for myself against the trolls because self-defense isn't allowed in society, online or offline. Society is engineered this way.

and in real nature life, there are tigers and things. And imagine how boring would it be if every once and a while, a tiger did not attack the herd. Imagine if there was no natural selection and every deer was awesome, with no tigers to tell the deer that maybe it ain't so. Well that is like the WIP and Creations section. There isnt one negative comment at all or anything, and people are made to believe there are no standards whatsoever, that you can just create anything and put it in the WIP and Creations. That is what I mean by hypermarxist.
 

Mert

Member
The forum is not dying, but you know: When your car does not go fast, your mind wishes to buy a better car ;)
 

Misty

Member
You are a giant hypocrit, you just edited one of my post for accusing another member of accusations and here you are accusing me.

I do no such thing of the sort, the only "attacks" I do are in self-defense against vicious insulting trolls.

I'll have you know I demand an apology.
 

Zizka

Member
I don't understand "hyper marxism" here. Where does the class struggle fit in, I don't understand.

Are you saying that the forum is dying because people are not allowed to say negative things about other people's games? I'm just trying to understand.
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
You are a giant hypocrit, you just edited one of my post for accusing another member of accusations and here you are accusing me.
I'm not "accusing" you of anything I'm merely replying to you. YOU brought up the subject of your posts being deleted. YOU claim it's for reasons other than the ones I outlined in the reply to YOUR post. I merely reiterated the same reply, as that's the real reason your topics were closed, deleted, edited, etc... So, don't go all indignant on me for replying to your publicly made accusations about moderators deleting your topics. If you'd wanted me to reply privately you'd have contacted me privately. :)

Now, can we forget the drama and keep this ON topic. We're not here to discuss Misty, we're here to discuss the forum... although that said, I'm not sure there's much more to say on the topic....
 
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Misty

Member
I'm not "accusing" you of anything I'm merely replying to you. YOU brought up the subject of your posts being deleted. YOU claim it's for reasons other than the ones I outlined in the reply to YOUR post. I merely reiterated the same reply, as that's the real reason your topics were closed, deleted, edited, etc... So, don't go all indignant on me for replying to your publicly made accusations about moderators deleting your topics. If you'd wanted me to reply privately you'd have contacted me privately. :)

Now, can we forget the drama and keep this ON topic. We're not here to discuss Misty, we're here to discuss the forum... although that said, I'm not sure there's much more to say on the topic....
What I am saying is on-topic. Either you are fair and impartial or not. The examples I give were about me yes, in a discussion about the forum policies and behavoirs itself. By claiming this is off-topic is to some how say that me (and you) are somehow outside the forum itself, that my circumstances are somehow not impartial and that your treatment of me is somehow outside the realms of the forum itself. Like how you accused me of attacking people in my threads, even though it was clearly a case of self-defense against viscous trolls attacking me first. So either your treatment of me is part of how the forums operate or it isn't. Saying discussion of my circumstances is somehow offtopic, implies that my experience is somehow outside the bounds of how the forums operate.

I don't understand "hyper marxism" here. Where does the class struggle fit in, I don't understand.

Are you saying that the forum is dying because people are not allowed to say negative things about other people's games? I'm just trying to understand.
Correlation does not always equal causation. If you browse the WIP and Creations section you will notice only positive reviews and no critical opinions. I asked for someone to disprove me and am still waiting for proof that I am wrong about this.

Gaming, as a whole, is about embracing nature and a sense of freedom that modern society does not allow. So it doesn't really fit the tone or spirit of gaming, with the lack of any real critique. There is no sense that a game you post, might possibly get a harsh critique. So there is no sense of nature anymore, or a sense that there are implicit standards. It feels more like a hyper-marxist thing of "everybody's a winner" kind of deal. And it kinda sucks the competitive fun out of things and doesn't inspire people to give it their all, there isn't a sense of jungle-tier natural filtering systems to condition them to fit the movement of darwinisim. This results in a kind of stagnation. A second effect is that it also causes the amount of hype and reviews to die down. People in general are afraid of giving honest opinions about games, and it ends up, sadly, with games getting no replies at all. This results in the owner of the topic repeatedly bumping their topic over and over.
 

Zizka

Member
It feels more like a hyper-marxist thing of "everybody's a winner" kind of deal.
Ah ok so you meant hyper-marxist in the sense of everybody's a winner. I never got that outlook from reading Marx but I think I understand better what you mean. In your conception of things, if everything's good, then nothing is.

I'm under the impression your mind is already set about this which is certainly your prerogative.

I personally think it might be a case of: how can I say something which I don't like about what's being shown without:
a) being hurtful or
b) put the person on the defensive

The following is an example of criticism (I took it from a game in the W.I.P. section, Blackhill):
Some very pretty pixel art! The text size feels a bit small, though.
It's useful criticism as the dev can then improve on his game if he/she considers that the text is indeed too small. It's not harsh but it gets the idea across.

I agree that there is a lot of positive which might come across as saccharine... but why not. Harsh criticism might lead to flame wars or discourage people from sharing their games altogether, which wouldn't help to keep the forum alive.

Just something to keep in mind. I've never seen a forum shutdown because people were overly nice to each other. I've seen the opposite however.
 

Misty

Member
Ah ok so you meant hyper-marxist in the sense of everybody's a winner. I never got that outlook from reading Marx but I think I understand better what you mean. In your conception of things, if everything's good, then nothing is.

I'm under the impression your mind is already set about this which is certainly your prerogative.

I personally think it might be a case of: how can I say something which I don't like about what's being shown without:
a) being hurtful or
b) put the person on the defensive

The following is an example of criticism (I took it from a game in the W.I.P. section, Blackhill):


It's useful criticism as the dev can then improve on his game if he/she considers that the text is indeed too small. It's not harsh but it gets the idea across.

I agree that there is a lot of positive which might come across as saccharine... but why not. Harsh criticism might lead to flame wars or discourage people from sharing their games altogether, which wouldn't help to keep the forum alive.

Just something to keep in mind. I've never seen a forum shutdown because people were overly nice to each other. I've seen the opposite however.
That is why I made up the word hyper-marxist. I think people these days throw the word "marxist" around as a pejorative but don't really know that it isn't really anything like marx's idea of the concepts. It just feels hyper-marxist like everyone is tiptoeing and afraid to speak their minds about the games in the WIP and Creations forum. This leads to lack of hype and lack of replies, and the endless self-bumping that we see in these games.

The other thing you said, its all about balance. Too little conflict leads to weakness, too much also leads to destruction. Without natural selection mechanisms, organisms will proliferate, stagnate, and become diseased. On the other hand, too much conflict can lead to cataclysm.
 
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Eh, bringing good ol' Karl into this just seems stupid IMO. If I browse the WIP section, I'm far more likely to look at games that interest me. Then, if I feel inclined to give a comment, it's usually criticism of some sort, but I do the compliment sandwich with it because why the hell would I not: compliment > criticism > compliment. I know how many hours goes into learning to program. I know how wildly difficult it is when you're starting out and just trying to piece things together. I know what it's like to make crap, buggy games but still want some input from other people to keep me inspired and creating. There's literally no reason for me to tear into another dev, especially when they're new (which is generally WHY the games are crappy). I find the idea that people being nice to each other is bad complete anathema.

On-topic: As has been pointed out many times already, social media has smeared discussions across a wide variety of formats and places. It's completely understandable that the forums are less busy than they were in their hey day. But there's still interesting discussions that happen every week and that's good enough for me. If it was super active, I'd almost be guaranteed to miss some of them, so in a way, it's almost better that posts happen in a more chill way.
 

TsukaYuriko

🦑
Forum Staff
Moderator
I'd like to remind everyone that disagreements regarding a moderator's actions should be discussed with the respective moderator in a PM. Pointing fingers, "attacking" and "self-defense" are of no relevance and have no place in a public topic and are better kept to reports.


Let's get this topic back on track.

Since the Collaboration forum keeps being brought up as the central topic here... activity there may indeed appear to have decreased if you compare it to, say, the old GMC. I remember the old forum (then named Team Requests) had activity, as in new topics, on an almost daily basis at some point. If you actually checked what became of those topics a while later, though, you'd often see what looked like a wasteland of unfinished and abandoned projects, with the odd one that was still going or even ended up in WIP and beyond at some point.

That's not because no such topics are being posted, though. The Collaboration forum is a moderator-approved forum now, so every topic that gets posted there needs to be previewed by forum staff, which is primarily my responsibility. The reality is that we still have an influx of topics comparable to the past, they just don't all actually end up going public. Here's a quick informational graphic to illustrate this process.

The amount of such topics should have drastically decreased on the current GMC's version of this forum, as they are what led to the isolated death of the old Team Requests forum in the first place. I'd say the current Collaboration forum is much more alive than its previous incarnations, as the majority of topics that are approved are usually promising concepts, portfolios or job offers rather than revenue share ideas that get dropped after a week or two.

The same applies to spam - you guys pretty much never see any, but we still ban a handful of spam bots on a daily basis. I'd even say that in the spam department, the GMC is as alive as it has never been before. :p


... and with that said, this topic pretty much arrived at its final destination.
 

James222

Member
Yes it is dieing a slow death but it has a bit more to go yet. This community lost alot of childhood nostalgia, memories and magic since arround 2013-2016. And with how much i hate and refuse to use gms 2. And have been learning c++ instead. Ill always have a special place in my heart for the early days I used game maker though.
 

Xer0botXer0

Senpai
I just think the landscape of hobbyist game development has changed. Ten years ago GameMaker was quite unique in its simplicity and accessibility, and if you wanted to learn how to code in GML and develop nice games, being part of the GMC was crucial. Today, multi-platform game development is more accessible than ever; there are many free resources, game engines, YouTube tutorials, books, and game development communities out there. If you're a kid looking at getting into game development today, you are spoiled for choice. The sense of centraility that the old GMC had peaked in the late 2000s and is unlikely to be repeated again.
This makes sense to me.

There are more resources available today then there were years ago, years ago this was more of a central hub. But with more and more youtube tutorials appearing and PDFs available and I mean there's Reddit and so on, and perhaps people are using their own blogs/websites to share their thoughts.

Although I still see old characters and many new faces and I don't check in that often anymore.
I do recall when i was active daily there'd be a the early morning which was really active, and then throughout the day I'd post and it wouldn't see as active I suppose it's time zones, then the evening things would get busy again. Almost like a routine.
 

SSJCoder

Member
There are much more exciting communities out there from my experience, seems that mostly newbies would stick to GMC forums IMO.
 

TsukaYuriko

🦑
Forum Staff
Moderator
Wouldn't surprise me - since the most active areas of the GMC are the Programming and Tech Support forums, it'd make sense that the majority of its users are novices. Experienced users (who don't like to spend their free time helping said novices) are most likely self-sufficient and won't need to ask for help around here.
 

True Valhalla

Full-Time Developer
GMC Elder
There are much more exciting communities out there from my experience, seems that mostly newbies would stick to GMC forums IMO.
I haven't felt engaged by the majority of conversation on this forum for a couple of years now. I still try to participate and contribute where I can, but I think this response tends to develop naturally with time and experience. The broader your perspective on game development becomes, the more difficult it is to engage with a lot of the beginner and novice-orientated discussions that are hosted on the GMC. And there really isn't much valuable content here for veteran developers with 10+ years of experience - that's why you barely see us - and the ones that stick around are mostly just answering basic queries rather than sharing their experience/perspective.

The result of that dynamic is that when the discussion inevitably shifts to topics like commercial game design, marketing, or building a games business you end up with an obvious case of the blind leading the blind. Then the developers who are exposed to that loop and struggle within it are forced to seek new horizons. It's a repeating cycle.
 
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Xer0botXer0

Senpai
I haven't felt engaged by the majority of conversation on this forum for a couple of years now. I still try to participate and contribute where I can, but I think this response tends to develop naturally with time and experience. The broader your perspective on game developemnt becomes, the more difficult it is to engage with a lot of the begginner and novice-orientated discussions that are hosted on the GMC. And there really isn't much valuable content here for veteran developers with 10+ years of experience - that's why you barely see us - so the ones that stick around are mostly just answering basic queries rather than sharing their experience/perspective.

The result of that dynamic is that when the discussion inevitably shifts to topics like commercial game design, marketing, or building a games business you end up with an obvious case of the blind leading the blind. Then the developers who are exposed to that loop and struggle within it are forced to seek new horizons. It's a repeating cycle.
Interesting observation.
 

SSJCoder

Member
I haven't felt engaged by the majority of conversation on this forum for a couple of years now. I still try to participate and contribute where I can, but I think this response tends to develop naturally with time and experience. The broader your perspective on game development becomes, the more difficult it is to engage with a lot of the beginner and novice-orientated discussions that are hosted on the GMC. And there really isn't much valuable content here for veteran developers with 10+ years of experience - that's why you barely see us - and the ones that stick around are mostly just answering basic queries rather than sharing their experience/perspective.

The result of that dynamic is that when the discussion inevitably shifts to topics like commercial game design, marketing, or building a games business you end up with an obvious case of the blind leading the blind. Then the developers who are exposed to that loop and struggle within it are forced to seek new horizons. It's a repeating cycle.
Wow, didn't expect to see you here, was just checking out your progress on that MMO yesterday ^.^' (cool stuff btw, good luck on the two week project!)

Just want to add a bit to my own post, I want to say that generally there's plenty of good places to contribute as a gamedev, like you can go help other people mod games, you can create your own website/blog altogether (my personal choice), you can learn other tools as well (which means these forums would no longer be the most suitable as they are GameMaker specific - this also applies to me since I have moved onto HTML5/C++/Assembly/etc).

As someone who kind of grew up here I can tell you that the internet as a whole has evolved like others have said, where things like personal blogs/sites/twitter have become more prevalent and made some people put more time in building their fanbase out there, as for any recent trend I think it it's just accumulating this same effect, and unless the GMC specifically tries to grow/garner more of an audience it will probably just keep "dying", as you say xD
 

Yal

GMC Memer
GMC Elder
With the new forum update in place, I'd say that either it's still standing strong and is healthier than ever... or it did in fact die and it was necessary to use necromancy to revive it.
 
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