Roundtable: Support crisis for professional users

Discussion in 'Community Chat' started by FrostyCat, Jul 22, 2018.

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  1. ChimaereJade

    ChimaereJade Member

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    Well I know this is not a complain thread and I'm not a "professional" even if I plan to sell assets in future and create an little game. Still I have to say that missing communication is almost always a sure sign of ending support.

    I saw a lot of programs and games in development "dying" and this where the first signs. I too payed for even pre-GMS2 and own 1.4 Master (throught Humble Bundle Sale). I waited over an year and the roadmap (with some vital comfort standards) is going behind even more. Right know I'm thinking about changing the engine after I completed a few tutorial-projects (some throught paid udemy-courses). It would be a little waste of time and more money for me but better then waiting another half year.

    To come back to the topic - an unknown future is a really bad premise to get more in contact with the engine and become an "GM-professional" even if you were willing to activly entranch to this one.
     
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  2. cgPixel

    cgPixel Member

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    The lack of communication is so frustrating, they seem to be quite active on Twitter (e.g. posting about the 20% discount).
    I'm glad that I didn't upgrade to GMS2 yet.
     
  3. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Something tells me that the operator(s) of the Facebook and Twitter accounts are NOT technical personnel, just regular communications staff. So if they are silent on technical issues, it's likely because the actual developers/admins are also silent and have nothing to pass on.
     
  4. Arconious

    Arconious Member

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    The lack of communication and infrequent update schedule has me concerned with the future of GMS2, at the very least whether or not it'll be worth continuing to invest time and money into it. On a personal level, the roadmap has always had me excited -- but we are now something like 18 months from release and not much has been ticked off that list. With this uproar over lack of support and critical fixes still needing to be addressed, I'm nervous that will continue to be the case (not that I disagree with prioritizing fixes first).

    I recall a thread not that long ago that I believe was also lamenting the lack of communication from YoYoGames'. That thread was closed down by the staff with a message that noted they had heard and understood our concerns about communication. Unfortunately, it appears we have regressed further from that point.
     
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  5. alexandervrs

    alexandervrs Member

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    Longtime user of GMS, since like the GM5 days, the last 2 months or so were integral of my decision to move on, having already spent like $600 for base, HTML5 and mobile modules.

    My game has been affected by bugs concerning surfaces, collision, project corruption and other minor issues, I already had posted a few bug reports with examples (which worked fine in GMS1 even but not in GMS2) but they were just closed without resolution.
    In addition, people were promised that once GMS2 was out, YYG would be open to hear people's suggestions, I have yet to see that happening.

    I have since looked for another gamedev tool (I am sure people can figure it out) along with an open source solution that I develop on the side, and from what I saw while porting my game with my new tool is that GMS2 is still very far behind in the 2D department.

    There is still no live editing/preview of anything, compilation takes too long just to test if something is pixel perfect. The new tool I use has this out of the box and is insane how much dev time I have saved
    The Spine runtime doesn't work with latest Spine Editor exports, what's the point of having Spine as a selling point when you don't bother to update the runtime? Even if it's just .json format updates, I don't care too much about the advanced features they keep adding. I just want the latest Spine because I want the Editor improvements as well.
    The new IDE UX is terrible, for example I asked for a feature to be able to scroll without needing to hold CTRL (just like in GMS1), it was added but it causes side effects with the zoom in other elements. Still also no keyboard shortcut customization as well. The new workspace method of doing things is not as intuitive as well.
    2D and simple 3D still don't play nicely (even so 3D became even harder to work with in GMS2 with the removal of d3d), no FBX/OBJ model support (even Low-poly models at least). I personally needed a bit of 3D features for some sections of my game which made them a bit of a pain
    Audio is still the basic of the basics and doesn't support filters or analysis of any kind
    The Mac exporter is useless as it seems like it ignores everything from Global Game Settings, months old bug as well
    Sprites (non-pixelart) still look blurry, no Trilinear or other filters to fix rendering & scaling, GMS2 seems tailored towards pixelart games but smooth PNG sprites take a toll
    No way to extend the Editor, via scripting or another way. If a feature it is missing, I'd add it myself, but I cannot still
    Other small annoyances like asking for a optional Company parent folder in the save location to arrange all my games' data, a way to get the audio group name of a sound or a way to organize my external resources instead of being littered in the executable root etc. Suggestions like these have been ignored for no reason
    Finally, there seems not to be any substantial communication from YoYoGames, no clear roadmap, no hotfix builds for taking care of a few bugs like every 2 weeks

    Everything that I've mentioned above I have found in my new tool and I am finally happy and can focus on my gamedev.
    It's been like a year of waiting (much more if you count how many years I stayed and believed in GM8, GMHTML5, GMS1, GMS2), I can't wait anymore and finally feel that I don't need to, tool & skill-wise.

    What I can say is for one I blame Playtech for obviously not giving clear directions to YYG of where the software is heading and how to manage support and updates (of any sort)
    It's too late for me though but I hope all these issues are resolved and the software can finally grow into something better.

    If I can suggest one thing is don't lock yourself into one gamedev environment, always try new things and be willing to learn
     
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  6. TheSpydog

    TheSpydog Member

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    Just noticed that YYG significantly updated their roadmap today with more details about the next few upcoming releases. The "Future" section has been stripped down from the sprawling wishlist it used to be into a nice list of alphabetically-sorted features. Notably, however, the GML improvements (like inline functions and such) are no longer mentioned. While that's a little disappointing, I'm personally satisfied with just having a clearer idea of what's coming.
     
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  7. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    No more GML improvements?
    That's what I want looking forward to!damn...

    But this does represent communication of some sort!
    Hopefully we get a little more...
     
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  8. xDGameStudios

    xDGameStudios Member

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    Upon seeing the changes to the road map (with no inline functions, no light objects, no variable types for data structures, no chain-accessors, no API documentation) ...well, sadly, I think it's time for me to get off board and try to establish myself in a more suitable engine.
     
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  9. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    Did they take it down? I can’t get to it now
     
  10. chmod777

    chmod777 Member

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    Ah, another export scheduled for Q4.
    Jack of all trades, master of none.
     
  11. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    I really wish one of the developers would jump on and explain what is going on with the roadmap. A lot of useful items have been removed from this without explanation. You guys know we watch this stuff like a hawk right? The items that were removed was stuff that a lot of us were eagerly waiting for. Just another example of what is wrong.
     
  12. xDGameStudios

    xDGameStudios Member

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    "And... for the Q4 release expect an incredible brand new export module!! Packed with brand new bugs and bigger release delays so Q&A can handle everything!! Stay tuned for more!!"

    EDIT: OK, i didn't want to sound rude with my radio-like announcement!! But I'm with @chmod777 on this one.
     
  13. TheSpydog

    TheSpydog Member

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    Apparently this isn't the full list of upcoming features. The roadmap was released accidentally and there's more to come. Source (from the GM Discord):

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    You can still fix a good amount of the Mac Game Settings bugs by right clicking the application bundle and click "show contents" and replace the icon, splash, and info.plist to whatever you need. This doesn't breach the EULA because the app bundle is modifiable by Finder, as it is just a stinking folder. The actual executable, i.e. the "runner" is under "YourAppBundle.app/Contents/MacOS/YourExecutableFile". Therefore, the only way you would be technically breaching the EULA, is if you either modified the executable itself inside the application bundle or the game.ios file which holds all your GML converted to byte code and internal game resources. Just thought this workaround was worth mentioning. There are many online and downloadable converters available to make a Mac icon converted from a PNG file, I recommend www.iconverticons.com
     
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  15. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    That’s good to know. Maybe also post the same Info here? We don’t all live in Discord ;)
     
  16. Cloudy

    Cloudy Member

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    I've been working with GM as a teacher at school for nearly 10 years. I actually only have needed support since upgrading from 8.1 to studio and then studio 2. I've never needed to get on these forums either as support were usually quick to respond and help resolve. However this year my tickets have not been responded to.

    Earlier this year I had the known login error issue. I eventually received a response months down the track apologising for the delay. That issue resolved itself. About two weeks ago I sent off a ticket regarding the sound window not appearing on the student computers. Basically, I can 'create' a sound but cannot edit it. I double click the sound but the usual editing window does not open. This occurred straight after the latest update. I resent the ticket again but still no response.

    So, without sounding like a newby forum complainer, the sound issue along with the other difficulties I experience with the new GM2 studio platform in a school setting (ie. frequent requests to input username and passwords on student computers, frequent software update popups and the inability to turn these off, sending verification codes every time I simply want to login to my account), and now the lack of support has led me to give the platform a break for the rest of the year.

    I hope the issues resolve and I can resume the use of the program in my classes next year.
     
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  17. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    An update on the roadmap: https://help.yoyogames.com/hc/en-us/articles/231719448-RoadMap

    We've updated it to be more clear about our immediate plans (also showing the delay on the current version) and we hope to be more clear with stuff as it's happening in the mid-near future. We will continue to update it as we go and hopefully it's now a lot more reflective of what we are currently working on. The removed items will be added back once reviewed. I hope this helps. Thanks.
     
  18. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    We finally get a reply from official staff, and it's literally 2 lines which mentions the roadmap and then completely omits addressing any other concern made in here, as if there wasn't two pages worth of them.

    While an update on the roadmap is nice, it does kind of feel like we're also given the finger at the same time. Either that, or someone is just covering their ears while going "Laaalalalalaaaa".
     
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  19. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    Given the new roadmap, and YYGs apparent attitude:

    Goodbye.

    I will still hang around the forums, but my YT Channel will shift focus, and I won't really be touching GMS, at least for a long while.
     
  20. Juju

    Juju Member

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    It's one thing to be critical and to make your voice heard, it's another to behave like objectionable children. Throwing your toys out of the pram doesn't help, and it certainly doesn't make YYG more likely to communicate frequently in the future. If you want to GameMaker to be professional software, start acting like professionals.

    Thank you for the update, Ross, I hope it's the start of a much more proactive period for GameMaker.
     
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  21. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    I find this incredibly negligent towards the very real consequences that studios and institutions out there alike are facing, as very evident just in this small sample size of a thread. No one is "throwing their toys out of the pram". Some are voicing their concerns, others are simply letting it be known why they are leaving, which I think is actually a good thing as opposed to "just leaving" - at least that way, YYG will know what went wrong, and can try and avoid similar things happening in the future if they so desire. To call people objectionable children because they are simply stating why they can no longer operate under these circumstances is pretty bold.

    See, on the other side of this, I could be resorting to insinuating you to be a brown nosing yes-man - but I'm not. That would be behaving like a child. Take your own advice.

    Being professional is making sure your business / school / whatever keeps running. Something that, for some GMS users, is currently next to impossible. Consult the existing posts.
    Staying in business is the very definition of being professional. The majority of people here are not friends of YYG, they are customers. Some of whom are affected gravely by the very real consequences of the last year's decline.

    The way things are now, in what way exactly would that be any different?
     
  22. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    If these are YoYo's immediate plans, then I don't see much cause for jubilation, nor any hint of YoYo understanding the main issue.

    While every aggrieved user on this topic has individual reasons for displeasure, one common theme among all of them is poor turnaround, inappropriate prioritization, and abrupt, scripted communication from YoYo support staff. This announcement exacerbates evidence of that refrain.

    There seems to be an insinuation on the revised roadmap that the new release policy starting Q2 2018 is once every quarter, with no midway releases or export-specific hotfixes. In particular, the delayed status of 2.1.5 suggests that ALL of the items are forced-bundled together and unnecessarily made contingent on each other, where any problem in even one isolated component would delay the entire batch. This kind of release schedule is undesirable for anyone doing this as a hobby, and thoroughly unacceptable for anyone doing this for a living. It's a slow death by YoYo's own release policy.

    We need YoYo's promise and action, such that 2.1.5 is the absolute last patch release designed to be crushed by its own weight.


    We need YoYo's reaffirmation and commitment, such that bonus features are no longer prioritized ahead of basic access to the product.

    My goal for setting up this topic is to find ways to reconcile and implement changes for the better, but the hopes of that seems futile while YoYo is busy pushing an oversized update. I'm getting the sense that YoYo is getting desensitized to pure-and-simple complaints, and that more of the same isn't productive. If that's the case, then perhaps this topic should be closed and reopened as a roundtable on release/support policies after 2.1.5's release.
     
  23. Guy_Typing

    Guy_Typing Member

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    @This thread.
    Okay, so I'll add my two cents now.

    I've been with the forums/community and GameMakerStudio for awhile, not half as long as some of the true seniors here but longer than most and definitely long enough to have opinions, thoughts and concerns on the matter. I've been working in GMS for about 6 years, since the end of 2012. Some of you will know my previous account, TheMatrixHasMe, which I no longer use. For the record, I'm 39 years old, so I would like to contribute to this thread without anyone attacking me or calling me unprofessional or accusing me of throwing a tantrum because that's not what this thread is about.

    I think we can all agree that their are two major problems at the heart of this matter.

    1) YoYo's handling of the transition from GMS1 to GMS2. This can be broken down into smaller complaints, which have already been listed in various ways by other forum contributors here but I will list my major grievances for transparency sake.
    a) As a developer with a game to market for mobile platforms (or html if that is you) your hand is forced by the transition. Because of constantly evolving security measures and active evolution that is web browsers and mobile platforms it's imperative that the source code for the engine be updated in some way. Since GMS is not open source, we don't have the keys to the car. This means the responsibility falls on YoYo to do and again it forces the dev to upgrade to GMS2. Doesn't matter if you are happy with GMS1, say goodbye to that engine.
    b)Forced hands don't get good discounts. The forced hands, being the html and mobile platform developers, are the ones mostly likely to have purchased the most expensive packages for GMS1 (800 dollar master collection anyone?) and also are the ones who have to spend the most on GMS2 for all of the packages (Modules). So like some of the others here I've easily spent over a thousand dollars on YoYo Products. I'm not going to go into great detail of business models or how other companies do business here, but hypothetically if YoYo took a five percent cut instead of cash up front, I would have to make 20,000 dollars on a game before they started taking an equal cut. Plus under that business model they could migrate me to a new engine with no additional costs and they would be far more likely to make sure that my games made a smooth transition considering it affects their bottom line. Which leads me to my next point.
    c)If you are an developer forced to migrate to GMS2, because of the GMS sunset, then you would be very reasonable to expect YoYo to be prepared for the transition by now, after all, they set their own sunset. But they are not. I think this is probably the biggest problem and the main driving force behind many complaints here. For example, when I migrated I couldn't get cloud syncing to work as their was an issue with an internal function that I could not access. I was forced to file a bug report and wait for YoYo to fix it at their own pace. When you combine that with unreliable response times and spotty/inconsistent communication you have a real problem.

    2) Communication and treatment of professionals and customers.
    a) As a payed product, we should have some kind of customer service and recourse to getting issues corrected. But YoYo doesn't really have a customer service and the treatment of the customers, in my opinion, is more indicative of companies who have free products. Because of the fact that there is no customer service, I think it's very natural, for most people to assume then, that the forums must be an extension of the company for communication purposes, both in getting feedback and in informing users. While the forum does act as a sort of propaganda arm of YoYo, making announcements, doing some basic marketing, etc., there also seems to be a disconnect from YoYo and the forums, seemingly done intentionally, so that YoYo is absolved of what goes on here. Which means that our voices are still not heard. Which leads me to the issues with the forums.
    b)What is the role of the moderators and yoyo staff here? I have had my share of grievances with some of the moderators/staff here. When it comes to transparency, they are the bridge between us and YoYo. In reality their role should be to make sure that the garbage stays out (marketing, trolls, disrespectful users, etc.,), as well as make sure that the forumers/customers are supported/helped, and also, I would think, to be an ear to the ground for YoYo. Unfortunately, I haven't seen enough of that from the staff here and I've even had moments on the forums where I've been held back by the staff from succeeding. I won't go into detail of those issues though as that begins to derail the focus that most of the grievers can identify with. At the end of the day though, YoYo is responsible for this forum whether they want to distance themselves or not, as well as responsible to hear and address the voices of concern coming from their customers. Twitter and Facebook announcements don't do that.

    In light of all this, I, like many of the long term users in here, feel that YoYo's end of the bargain has not been met for the money was shelled out. I personally am not happy with GMS2 and do not feel promises have been kept. This is not throwing a tantrum, this is me taking time and effort to, as articulately as possible, communicate with YoYo and their staff that you are failing some of the most loyal, core and senior customers you have. I see voices in here that I respect the most getting treated as if their time, effort and expertise means nothing. The silence of staff, as well as the approval of silencing voices and dissent, speaks volumes.It seems that YoYo's business strategy seems to be to cater more to hobbyists and impulse purchases and that their business and customer service models do not seem to be aimed at longer term customers and/or professional users as much as swooping up newer users and collecting the front end payday.

    The longer that YoYo takes to address these concerns (they've already taken too long), the more this is just going to become an echo chamber of unheard frustration. YoYo, you may need to google how to deal with frustrated customers. You don't seem to be making them feel heard and addressing their concerns.

    Hopefully, my addition to this isn't too much of a rant. I'm not sure I do the best job of articulating the trees from the forest but I'm trying to support my fellow forum friends and let them know they are not alone and there is another one here with the same frustrations, the same concerns, the same problems. You are not crazy.

    People here aren't acting like children. They are venting and expressing frustration. You took the same exact approach in the YoYo Games Indie Game Publishing thread, found here https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/yoyo-games-indie-game-publishing.47878/. You attacked the people expressing concern, said they weren't professionals, and then denounced their opinion. When I defended people you never responded to me. These are people who are seasoned veterans with the product as well as YoYo's most loyal customers. People that have incomes depending on this product. They have real concerns that need to be addressed and YoYo is NOT doing that. They have every right to voice their frustration, concerns and opinions and when they don't get answers from the company they have every right to "throw their toys out of the pram". The fact that you call them objectionable children shows a disrespect and lack of actual empathy for their problems as well as a rather blind loyalty to YoYo.

    Edit: Small fixes.

    Additional Edit: Some phrasings modified to be more constructive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
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  24. grixm

    grixm Member

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    I've been waiting for over three years for the get_open_filename/get_save_filename functions to be implemented on platforms other than Windows. https://bugs.yoyogames.com/view.php?id=18264

    Some time ago Mac support was quitely added, but there's still Linux. I've regularly had customers ask if there will be a linux version, but it will be too difficult and clumsy to release anything without those functions in GM. So I've probably lost a few sales over the years.
     
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  25. COWCAT

    COWCAT Member

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    Hmm... I've been using GMS for years now, and I have released 3 games on PC and consoles within the last 2 years.

    The whole "support takes a long time to reply" has been ongoing for a very long time. I've sent about 20 support tickets (mostly for the console exports) over the last 2 years and the reply rate/speed was very varying. Some tickets took months to solve while some others got solved on the same day. That said, it seems the situation with the Unity consoles exports isn't much better, and few people use those exports (I never had any real problems with the PC exports) so I can't really complain. I even think they did a good job overall, considering the team is rather small!

    I haven't switched to GMS 2.0 yet but I've tested my 3 games projects with it and they seemed to work perfectly. I expected a ton of bugs would come with 2.0 though, and seeing your comments, looks like I was right to wait and stick with 1.4.
    That said, I'm *really* looking forward to the Switch export module, and I'm really glad they're developing it because personally I was considering to move to Unity right before it was announced.

    My experience with GMS 2.0 is limited so far but I have to say I'm really bothered by one thing - YoyoGames shouldn't rely on a valid internet to let people use their program. What if I suddenly don't have a working internet connection for days? This has happened to me many times in the past. And what if YoyoGames goes down? At the very least, checking the validity of the licence once per month would be reasonable. Checking it EVERYTIME you launch the program is NOT.

    I'm pretty sure they'll be able to fix the bugs given enough time, but yes, the seemingly lack of communication is a bit worrying. I've invested 2 years programming my new game with GMS, and I would hate having to rewrite everything for Unity.
    For now, I'm sticking to GMS 1.4 (and will make an exception for the Switch export only)
     
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  26. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    JuJu, YoYo needs to start treating their customers and software in a professional manner instead of a child ignoring their parents when called to.
     
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  27. TheSpydog

    TheSpydog Member

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    I don't mean to speak for Juju here, but I'm pretty sure his comment was more in reference to the snide or overly dramatic posts about how the roadmap isn't what people hoped. There are absolutely valid issues throughout this thread (heck, I posted a whole bunch of them) but it's easy for a volatile discussion like this to slip into an immature, unproductive, pile-on whine-fest.

    Also might be worth noting that the majority of people in this thread are (self-admittedly) not actually practicing professionals, and some notable community members who are in fact professional GM devs haven't contributed to this discussion. Again, not trying to diminish anyone's experiences, but it's good to keep some perspective. These issues, while they can be incredibly frustrating, may not be as dire as they seem.

    I know some of you feel very differently, but I took the roadmap rewrite as a step of good faith toward the community -- we now have a much clearer picture of what to expect, and when to expect it. This is a good thing. I don't understand why people are reacting so violently to this useful informational update, when just a week ago everyone was begging for any signs of life from YYG. Yes, there hasn't been an official response to the long helpdesk wait times (one of the core issues that prompted this thread), but progress is progress.

    Also, @FrostyCat the engine updates have been quarterly since 2017. Not sure why that's a surprise? They have still released hotfixes and such even with this quarterly release structure, so I imagine that will still be the case.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  28. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    I feel slightly targeted, so:

    Perhaps, but the response to this thread seems to dismiss the issues raised by this thread..

    I invested in , both time and money, because of what was "promised" for future releases. In fact, I was really hoping to see some of the stuff that was discussed during the closed beta.

    Now that all that is gone, I hope you understand some of us feel somewhat cheated.


    Not a surprise, but a bad strategy, each updates bring new features and bug fixes, but also a miriad of new game breaking bugs.

    If we want to update to fix bugs/bring security updates to our games, we have a high chance of encountering new game breaking bugs (I have a few times), and when we update to fix those, we run into new bugs.

    The issue is with the large updates YYG decide to push. Which, infact, isn't really done more anymore in other companies...
    A better strategy is to break updates into new feature releases, and bug fixing releases.

    If you look at other software development platforms (jetbrains, visual studio, even unity), that is what they do, and have far more frequent updates. Visual studio updates every week! Often bringing very minor changes or bug fixes per update (granted, the size of the team is quite different).
     
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  29. ChimaereJade

    ChimaereJade Member

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    Well I feel a bit "targeted" too because I was very open about myself and didn't called myself an professional even if I have learned a lot about gamedesign in the last 10 years and writting (in german) isn't a weak spot too. So can I just call myself a professional if I write scripts or pixel fine art, put together in one game? Where is the difference between hobbyist-, freelancers- and studio-developers opinions besides the part of what you earn? Aren't we all customers? I just think this two-societies-thinking and prioritizing opinions towards this is unfair and just comfortable thinking. I don't see any flame in this thread - everyone gives constructive and reasonable opinions why he or she is worried about the last events. And imo it should handled like this instead of start filtering and so to say "ignoring" some parts because other members didn't wrote in this thread.

    As GMWolf said, more frequent patches would work so much better to react to new bugs and give GMS more frequent life. This is one of my biggest critic points:
    • There isn't much movement to see in the development of the GMS(2).
    • There is almost no feedback from sides ot the staff.
    • There are mostly just announcements about things you can spend still more money in.

    Sorry but this is enought for me. The roadmap is a good sight but it's so overdue to speak to us instead of letting juju defend all of this with very vague "arguments" (I can't read minds) and supporting this throught liking his post where he just crosses a line. You are speaking about to behave adult and just show that you can't handle critic.
    I have never seen something like this and I was in different forums of different engines. This was indeed a waste of time and money with this attiude of yours. You need some big changes in managing (and polishing) this engine, marketing and customer-service when you want to survive.
    Just take 5% of the end-game profits and reduce start issues like your (exporter-)prices for newbies when you are focussing on "professionals" anyway.

    (Yeah, I am really disappointed, upset and mostly before anything else not dependent by GMS(2).)
     
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  30. Seabass (The Human)

    Seabass (The Human) Member

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    I don't have very much to say but the silence is bad for the public image of YYG. There are quite a few problems with workflow/bugs in the IDE but the community has always worked extremely hard to provide public tools/solutions/workarounds for these limitations. The problem is that people feel left out and concerned. It'd be like if YYG couldn't see sales for a month, it would probably concern the whole company as to whether or not they would still be operating the following month. This all adds up to uncertainty and likely a lot of lost users. I don't plan on walking away at the moment because I love GM and I know the team is working on something but how hard and on what is in the air. The twitter post today (https://twitter.com/YoYoGames/status/1024320037920956416) is a great step in the right direction but the YYG blog should be utilized for sure. Perhaps identifying certain issues that can be discussed would be great as well. Example, "This week we knocked out some huge issues with file dialogues". That alone would solve everything.
     
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  31. XanthorXIII

    XanthorXIII Member

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    I'll give that the update to the Roadmap was needed but I think YYG needs to start communicating better on Tickets and in General. How about opening up Beta Testing for those that want to contribute to it? Would it hurt to have more people on board with that? I think that would go a Long Long way in making this better.
     
  32. Justice

    Justice Member

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    This is a great idea. QA is terrible. How can a forced update go out, breaking things like collisions or autocomplete, and nobody noticed? YYG's best asset has been its inexplicably loyal userbase, and it's a no-brainer to enlist them to shore up QA's devastating failures.

    For the same reason, it's baffling why extensibility wasn't top of the list. GMS2's users include brilliant programmers who have devoted immense time to making extensions, scripts, and tutorials to patch up YYG's neglect. Let them fix GMS2.

    ... it was nice when all we bitched about was YYG's terrible marketing.
     
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  33. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    And this is all the more baffling when there seems to be a test suite already in use.

    Look at this ticket: https://bugs.yoyogames.com/view.php?id=29799

    Notice the mention of "GMDeath" and "YYGTest" in the description, which seem to be test suites for GMS 1.4 and 2.x respectively. In my opinion, this suite needs to be used more rigorously, and preferably open-sourced for users to verify their installations or report bugs/omissions via pull requests.
     
  34. breakmt

    breakmt Member

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    I'm agree with people here - communication with YY is not good, some of my reports still not answered, but they are not very important to be honest. Other bugs were fixed, even implemented some minor enhancements.
    Yes, I wish they will fix most bugs and will make IDE more comfortable to use.
    Now I see the roadmap. Thanks for that. Honestly, I don't see much interesting in this year. Ok, "Stabilisation and Bug Fixes" looks good. "Getters" too, probably (not sure what it will be in GM). But that's for me, I'm sure some people will be glad about Switch, PS4 and other stuff.

    For my current project GM is ok. I will stick with it for half year/year and see if something will change. Other engine (open source) is developing very fast and, while GM development is not that fast, it could happen that one day it could be better option for me.

    Maybe YYG should do something like kickstarter for new features? :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
  35. Andrey

    Andrey Member

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    Guys, at all, now summer! What more updates? What kind of communication with customers? Time to rest!

    I not so long in community, so, apparently, many grievances and resentment still not managed to accumulate.
    I think the YY team is doing 120%. The lack of the desired response and work with customers is not malicious intent, but 1) the real lack of resources for this and 2) the basic principle of the product's closeness. Comparing to Godot is pointless, since it is open. Conspicuous outdated model of YY, where secrecy loses in the modern world of openness. Plus the localization of the company. Sorry, it's not the States or Singapore with a huge number of potential employees. This Dundee, where gaining in state + closed nature of the company.

    Plus, should wait for a send to retire GMS 1.4

    Another point is that many people here in the community have become very strong and just grown up. Their indignation is clear — they want to grow further and at a great pace, but as if they require that their parents do not age and keep up with their development. But sometimes it's important to admit to yourself that the paths can diverge. And you can not leave with resentment and anger, and with gratitude for the jointly passed way. Many have grown with GM.

    I think we should not skimp on the words of support for the team YY. I think it is important to motivate them to succeed, not just to peck. ;)
     
  36. Justice

    Justice Member

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    This was beautiful poetry.
     
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  37. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    I don't want to clog this thread with the same complaint over and over, so I'll just say once more and let that speak for itself. It has been now 2 weeks since I got my MacBook I bought in the mail. For that entire time I have not been able to test run or port my games on my Mac, due to a DRM-related error. YoYo has not told me anything new since the time I posted this thread about it: https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/your-license-does-not-have-this-module-enabled.50261/ Contrary to the name, their helpdesk has been no help to me on this issue.
     
  38. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    I'm actually glad YYG is finally building a Switch export. I think it's really tough for them to compete for the money of professional developers without having console export parity with the other engines out there. (Yes, it's arguably hard for them to compete with two-year-old bugs sitting in Mantis, too, before somebody writes me a twenty paragraph essay to explain this to me, hahah. I'd still argue that the missing Switch support was much more conspicuous.)

    It was a personal deal-breaker for me, too, so I'm glad it's getting resolved.

    On the main topic: I've never had any major problems with GMS2, and I've never had to report any bugs because of that. YYG's apparent slowness and opaqueness really worries me, though - it's scary knowing that if I do run into a problem, it might hold me back for weeks or months. I hope YYG starts communicating more, too. I miss the days when the devs were constantly on here dropping little updates and shooting the **** with us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  39. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    I think everyone talked YoYo into shooting themselves in the foot in regards to Switch-demand. Wouldn't surprise me if all their time and energy is being spent on completing the Switch export, while completely putting on hold all other priorities.

    Because everyone knows Switch = money, and we all harassed them into making this decision.
     
  40. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    @Samuel Venable: I mean, you say that, but how viable to a lot of "pro" indies is an engine that doesn't export to one of the most popular consoles of all time? I think it's probably true that the Switch export is taking up a lot of their time, but their other option wasn't really great, either. I hope they're just sprinting toward getting the Switch export finished, and that they'll then be able to get back to "normal" update speeds after that.

    Either way, the Switch export has nothing to do with YYG's opaqueness, which is one of the main things people are complaining about in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  41. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    Here's the thing though - and for me personally, this is really a big part of the problem in a nutshell.

    Ever since they went from GM to GM:Studio, there seems to have been an ever increasing confusion about who exactly GameMaker is for.

    Time and time again when people on here have complained that GMS is too expensive for hobbyists to afford, they have been told that GMS is no longer targeting hobbyists (primarily at least) - but actual indie studios and a more "professional" clientel. To me personally, that's perfect, as that's what I've wanted for years even before studio, and I also think that it makes good sense business wise, since there's potentially a lot more money in targeting studios and "serious" developers - and those are typically also the ones with a greater chance to make something like Undertale or whatever other smash-hit that will lead to even more GMS sales. So that's all good in my book.

    The problem, however, is that this is sort of a catch 22;
    If GMS was a cheap solution targeted towards hobbyists, then the current situation would be a lot more acceptable.
    But GMS is actually, apparently, trying to cater to more serious developers - both in terms of price and features. Why, then, is it that everyone is still being treated as hobbyists?

    You can't have it both ways - either dial back your ambition (and price) if this is the best it's going to get, or get cracking and deliver what your supposed target audience actually needs.

    The biggest problem is that it seems like GMS has a serious identity problem right now; who is it for? Because there seems to be a huge polarity between who they intend to target it for, and who they are in practice targeting it for with the way they are handling... Well, everything, these days.

    If you want more serious users, you have to treat them accordingly.

    On the other hand, if you're perfectly happy with hobbyists only, then by all means, keep doing what you're doing. Because eventually all the "pros" you claim to be targeting will be gone, and they won't ever come back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  42. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    @JeffJ:
    X'D

    I appreciate your post though, and absolutely agree with you. It feels to me that YYG's ambitions and workforce aren't matching up right now. It's obvious they need more people on support.

    I think they were caught up in a kind of no-win situation, though. I imagine they measured the risks and rewards and dove forward with the Switch export. I was all for it, and hope it works out for them overall.

    And I think YYG being more open with what they're doing would do a lot to raise the good will toward them around here...
     
  43. rIKmAN

    rIKmAN Member

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    I think it's safe to say that we ALL do, the problem right now is that YYG and the userbase have no connection at all and their is an "us" and "them" attitude rather than everyone feeling like they are part of the same team and pulling in the same direction.

    It's like a football team where the fans are cheering and getting behind the team as they ALL want the same thing - success.

    However when the team isn't performing like it should, they start to lose games that they shouldn't be losing and the fans feel like they are not being heard then they'll start booing and expressing their unhappiness at what's going on.

    Fans are paying customers that make the club what it is with their support and they have every right to do that as without them buying shirts, kits and tickets etc then the club has no cashflow and goes into administration. The supporters ARE the club - without them it's just 11 blokes kicking a ball around.

    After that it's up to the management to make some changes behind the scenes, change tactics, open lines of communication via supporters clubs, press releases and social media and bring in some fresh faces if that's what it takes to turn things around.

    Once that happens the fans are again cheering and getting behind the team, if that doesn't happen then fans stop going to matches spending money as they ultimately think "What's the point - I make literally no difference to what happens".

    Basically this isn't (yet) a lost cause, changes just need to be made to turn the ship around so instead of hitting the iceberg and sinking we can all watch together on the starboard bow as we sail past it and think "Jesus that was close, let's not let that happen again for everyones sake".

    Now 1.4 is sunsetted I'm hopeful we will start to see a shift towards more regular interaction and updates with the community, improved support and bug fix schedules and a general shift towards being more open and transparent, which the new roadmap is a good first step towards.

    100% agree, communication is key and people are much more forgiving and understanding when they are kept in the loop as to what is happening and not treated like enemies who are to be kept at arms length and not given any information on anything.
     
  44. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    Yep. I feel a little bad for the YYG guys, too. They were never this quiet before they were bought out, and from what I understand, a lot of the orders to maintain radio silence absolutely, definitely, no matter what come from higher up than the people we're all complaining at/about. I've always imaged YYG as a smaller company working out of a garage or something (in the nicest way possible) because of the sporadic updates and heavy developer interaction here. When Mike or Russell or whoever used to get on here and basically be like "WE HAVEN'T UPDATED IN A MONTH BECAUSE I SAID SO, NOW GET OFF MY BACK, JESUS CHRIST," and then drop a squirrel emote, I always thought "well, it sucks that we didn't really get an answer, but I can tell these are guys who care about what they're making, at least, hahah!" YYG have never been especially punctual or transparent, but a few years ago it was obvious (to me, anyway) that they were doing their best, at least.

    I honestly don't think much has changed internally at YYG. I think they're probably still the scrappy hard-working underdogs that earned all of our support over the years. Unfortunately, it seems most of that charm has been hidden away behind a featureless corporate facade the last few years.

    Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all the guys at YYG just decided they were too cool to talk to any of us after ownership changed hands, hahah. I doubt it, though. I hope some of the Playtech guys read this forum, too. If the gag orders really do come from the top, they should know their policies are killing customer goodwill around here, and the YYG guys shouldn't be constantly suffering our complaints for no reason.
     
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  45. Lukan

    Lukan Gay Wizard Freak

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  46. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    I just kinda realised on the spur of the moment just now, while I agree with all the concerns of this topic, we should also try to not over do it. I was thinking about how a lot of us miss the days when YoYo was more transparent, this appears, though I'm just guessing, a result of them being acquired by PlayTech, which could be why they have been the way they have lately in regards to the level of communication becoming lesser than before. But also recognize they are up against other tools that have much bigger teams of developers working on them, for YoYo to compete with. Also notice the lack of communication could not even be YoYo's fault, as in the YoYo everyone here has come to know and love over the years, it could be PlayTech's fault instead for all we know.

    It isn't really about who's "fault" it is anyway, I'm using that word very loosely because there could be a very good reason behind all of this. But regardless of who's fault it is, we need to give them the benefit of a doubt before we abandon ship and move to another engine, as we really don't know whats going on. All I know is both YoYo and PlayTech I highly doubt have any intent to abandon GameMaker, and they are very hard workers that need perhaps some more recognition. I don't think YoYo or PlayTech are doing anything wrong. I'm very positive they mean well and are doing their best to go about this in whatever way they feel is best.

    I know this is kind of a jump in perspective from my previous posts in this thread, but humans are easily influenced, and are emotional beings, even those of highest authority or experience in the game dev world. We don't want to discourage them, so again, while I agree with this topic, as @RichHopelessComposer and other users I think have pointed out iirc, there needs to be some more balance here.

    The professional client I'm working with wants me to move to Unity for our projects. But as for my personal work apart from him, I'm sticking with GameMaker for a lot of stuff, but not necessarily everything, and this has nothing to do with the communication issues. I just like working with multiple engines and languages to increase the possibilities.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  47. rIKmAN

    rIKmAN Member

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    Come on Sam, really?
    If they weren't doing anything wrong then this thread wouldn't exist.

    It isn't at a point of no return yet, and the goodwill that is being lost can be turned around by simply interacting and communicating more with the users.
    Read through the thread, the main issue is the complete silence and lack of communication from YYG to the customers.

    The other things can be fixed with time (slow support and updates etc) and users would be way more understanding with some simple communication.
     
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  48. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    Speaking from my current breaking point, I have given them the benefit of the doubt. For well more than a year of increasingly critically unacceptable standards. At what point do you draw the line? That's obviously for each individual to decide, and personally I draw mine when I have seen a steady decline for this long that directly affects my business, and worst of all, with no perceivable end in sight. If you're fine with continuing this, that's on you. But it's important you understand that this thread is not just coming out of nowhere - on the contrary, it's a sort of "last resort" and a desperate cry for help as the result of a long road of grievances and bitter experience. It's the result of the benefit of the doubt already been given by a lot of us - and with nothing to show for it. Patience has its limits.

    As for the whole "it's Playtech being meanies" thing, that may very well be the case - but it doesn't change anything whose "fault" it is - it simply still needs to change. If that means that YYG has to take this to Playtech, then that's fine too. I really do not care whether the "blame" is at YYG, Playtech or elves from Middle Earth - it does not matter. What matters is that things will change - sooner than later.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  49. Samuel Venable

    Samuel Venable Time Killer

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    I didn't realise being optimistic in a time like this was such a bad thing. I'll drop it.
     
  50. rIKmAN

    rIKmAN Member

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    There's nothing wrong with being optimistic but saying there's nothing wrong is just having blinkers on, and like Jeff says a lot of users have been optimistic in the past but are way past that point by now due to the way things have gone.

    You can carry on being optimistic and I hope you're right, but there's no need to get offended and be a stoopid head! ;)
     
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