Roadmap please

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Funtasygames.com

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Congrats to this nice new forum. I want to be the first one who asks for a Roadmap. It would be very nice to know on what you are working atm. I would be glad to spend some bugs on a new version with new gui interface, better room editor, etc. Please if anybody from yoyo reads this... give us at least some information. Thanks!!
 
G

grixm

Guest
I'm not yoyogames so this is speculation, but based on what they've said earlier this is pretty much what will happen next with GM:

- Sometime, the next edition of GM, having been referred to as GM:Next, Project Zeus and GM:S 2.0, will be released. It will probably be quite an upgrade, like the leap from GM 8 to GM:S
- Because of this, GM:S 1.4 won't be getting a lot of attention. They will fix bugs for a while and there is a set of features that they have said they will implement (specifically the ones with status "Confirmed" in the bug tracker: http://bugs.yoyogames.com/view_all_bug_page.php ), but other than that it won't change a lot. It will be obsolete eventually.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
I agree. A roadmap would be nice...
I think YYG had a roadmap before... But I can't quite remember up to what version it went up to... And we quickly realized they didn't stick to it much...
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
The problem with Roadmaps is that things change... and when they do the user-base turns around and says "But you promised X Y and Z but now we have X, Y and W!!!!"... anyway, this has been mentioned before, and yes there used to be a roadmap, but YYG haven't had a public one for a long time and I doubt they will put one up again now.
 
C

Christoffer Karlsson

Guest
Im sure they have one but does not want to release it. Becous it will be much harder for them if they need to change something /add / remove from the list if everyone sees the roadmap as a promise :)
 

Ariak

Member
@Jas
I was refering to nocturne's comment, which jokingly implies that they [YYG] follow the random principle - or atleast it often feels that way, instead of an internal roadmap. Which is not what you want to typically communicate openly.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Contrary to popular belief I do actually have a sense of humour and it occasionally spills onto the community in the form of stupid posts like the one above... if anyone wants to take it seriously and actually thinks that the comment is a fair representation of what YYG is actually doing then that's their problem, but it's a shame that they missed (or misinterpret) one of my rare moments of wit...
 
A

Aura

Guest
Probably the reason why YoYo Games launched the new GMC after 6 months. :D

Honestly I'm fed up of people asking this question. Despite YoYo having said that they would show what they have got when the time comes.
 

Cpaz

Member
Oh boy... Now to watch a legitimate question get sort of answered and then turn into the most humorous post on the forum.

Again.
*Grabs popcorn*

(Related to the topic, I think they're at the point where they need to finish whatever it is they're working on, hopefully GM: next or whatever. Them this discussion can continue.)
 

Greenhawk

Threatuna Agent
Ummm.... erm.... no comment.
Uncle?

Sorry, for the moment we can't. Please remember that since we are now part of a listed company, we have to be very careful about what goes out, especially for anything that is deemed to be a new product. More will come, but we can't say any more than this for now.
Dad?

Related to topic: There's absolutely no hurry @Mike and @Nocturne as long as mike doesn't shoot me for saying roadma- *too late* *coughs* then we..we...should be fine! *Mistakes were made*
 

gnysek

Member
It's sad, that there's even no timeline for next GameMaker, like second half of 2016 or 2017 or whatever. Not like they said there will be some news in SUMMER 2015!!! But this news is now removed from website sadly.

--- EDIT ---

I found it on another website: https://scottishgames.net/2015/03/16/yoyo-games-acquired-for-16-4m/

In fact, we’re already working on a number of these and some of you will get a very pleasant surprise this summer.
 
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S

Snail Man

Guest
That's the exact reason they removed the roadmap; plans change, but people still expect the old timelines to be valid a year later
 

XanthorXIII

Member
I dont expect a road map but when we dont get communication very hard to stay engrossed. The cat was let out of the bag last year, maybe a hint that would at least give us a thrill?
 
That's the exact reason they removed the roadmap; plans change, but people still expect the old timelines to be valid a year later
Yet the other two big engines somehow manage to have roadmaps and stick mostly to them.Why is that? What makes YoyoGames different in a way where a roadmap is seen as a liability instead of something positive for the community and the developer? The roadmap went down long before they sold the company, right?

I'm still waiting for the room editor in 1.x to be overhauled. I could've sworn that was a promised feature back when I purchased the program, but who knows around here? The old roadmap has been conveniently destroyed, and there's not even a new one to replace it! Even if mistakes are made and plans change, it'd be nice to have a record of it, instead of having to go off everyone's memories and the words of the developers. I'm happy with GMS regardless of what promised features never showed up in it, but it'd be nice to know what the "score" is, and what plans there are for the future.

Anyway, hope Yoyo does something great with the next GM, and finally gets back to sharing a public roadmap, like the two other engines already do.
 
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Yal

🍋 *lemon noises*
GMC Elder
I'm still waiting for the room editor in 1.x to be overhauled
AFAIK it has been. I remember the days when it didn't have zooming or copypasting at all, and the minimap is also helpful if you make large levels (except I don't really see the point when zooming makes the whole screen a minimap :p). You can manually tweak the order instances are created and even give them names to refer to them with (replacing IDs), and you can use Edit Object to instantly open a resource by selecting it from the room. We've come a long way since 1.0.
 
AFAIK it has been. I remember the days when it didn't have zooming or copypasting at all, and the minimap is also helpful if you make large levels (except I don't really see the point when zooming makes the whole screen a minimap :p). You can manually tweak the order instances are created and even give them names to refer to them with (replacing IDs), and you can use Edit Object to instantly open a resource by selecting it from the room. We've come a long way since 1.0.
I know they made small changes to the editor, but as far as I remember, they talked about *completely redoing it,* and never did. Again, who knows. The roadmap's been taken down. I'm just going off my foggy memories from two years ago. Either way, the room editor for GMS is still awful. There are a few user-made ones out there that are a hundred times better, which is unfortunate.
 

Yal

🍋 *lemon noises*
GMC Elder
AFAIK the room editor was going to be completely redone in GMS2, it's too deeply rooted into the codebase to be drastically changed casually. And since there's better non-official options available anyway at the moment...
 
AFAIK the room editor was going to be completely redone in GMS2, it's too deeply rooted into the codebase to be drastically changed casually. And since there's better non-official options available anyway at the moment...
Yes....I believe those are the lines YoYo gave when they randomly cancelled redoing the room editor a few years ago. X'D
Anyway, the room editor itself isn't a huge deal (though it's a deal, for sure). I'd just like to have a roadmap again for the reasons I've already listed about. =)
 

gnysek

Member
Anyway, hope Yoyo does something great with the next GM, and finally gets back to sharing a public roadmap, like the two other engines already do.
Now that you say it, I think that maybe they removed roadmap in case they will be late, so nobody can say they aren't on time now. In case of those engines, they have smaller things on roadmap as their "next goal", while in case of GM:S 2.0, on roadmap there is "everything" now, and being late with one feature makes everything late.
And I'm more than sure, that GM:S 2.0 is trying to give so much features for 2D, that it can fight with Unity and that's why the are so late - it's not easy to catch up with Unity and take a lead, while Unity is updated regular.

But I'm sad, that they cannot give sneak peak.
 
W

WWAZman

Guest
Probably the reason why YoYo Games launched the new GMC after 6 months. :D

Honestly I'm fed up of people asking this question. Despite YoYo having said that they would show what they have got when the time comes.
Absolutely not good enough. Regular updates by staff KEEP people informed, salivating (hopefully) for new features or promised feature fulfillment, and from asking this question over and over again.

Personally I hope to see much improvement over GMS from 1.4x to 2.0.. but I'm curious if it's a free upgrade or a paid one? I'd pay for it but only if it has a LOT better 3d support.
 

gnysek

Member
Read my response above. This is the only reason we've been quiet on the matter.
Yes, you cannot spoil anything because you're a listed company, and saying "we gonna release in June" and then being late, will make a huge loss to investors. And any other company may say after your release "we will also add feature XX to our app, and we will give it week before YYG!" which can also change how Playtech is worth on stock market. If I'm correct, it's this one: http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/PTEC:LN

So generally, I understand this as YYG will only announce things to publicity, that are completed, and when releasing them, so investors won't lose their money.
 
N

NPT

Guest
I think there are lots of good reasons to buy Playtech stock, but the future release of Studio 2.0 isn't one of them.

YYGs and GameMaker Studio are nothing but tiny drop in a bucket to Playtech. The lack of priority that YYGs and YYGs' customers to Playtech was made painfully obvious in the recent forum delay.

Upgrading the forums was important to YYGs, it was important to YYGs customers, the two month delay waiting to test and verify the security demonstrated pretty clearly how important YYGs and us are to Playtech.
 

csanyk

Member
The problem with Roadmaps is that things change... and when they do the user-base turns around and says "But you promised X Y and Z but now we have X, Y and W!!!!"... anyway, this has been mentioned before, and yes there used to be a roadmap, but YYG haven't had a public one for a long time and I doubt they will put one up again now.
Changing is fine; just update the roadmap with the changes. A roadmap isn't a promise, it's a current expectation of what is planned. Everyone knows, or should know, that plans change. Having a public roadmap is really important for developers to know what's coming out, and approximately when, so they can in turn plan their own projects accordingly. Not having one is a disservice to the developers who use GM:S.
 
Just to put a word in the case of GM:Next. If it's version 2.0 that needs to be paid for the upgrade, then it was a huge mistake to buy version 1.x, as it's bugged and not so rich to do whatever you want. Even things like bit shifting is working bad with int 64. (There's a bug opened)
As I see now, for the last months, the number of bugs fixed is so low that it's too obvious that it's already a minor version which has almost no attention. 4 months for the bit shifting bug and no update.
So considering this, you can't create a professional game, because every little bug here and there is a limit (can be written in a different way, but it will change the game logic and add more code to suit the code you're wishing for).
So that's why I said that paying for upgrade is not a good idea for developers who really intend to use GM to create professional games. (Especially when it seems that GM 2.0 should fix these bugs and add much more features)
 

csanyk

Member
Just to put a word in the case of GM:Next. If it's version 2.0 that needs to be paid for the upgrade, then it was a huge mistake to buy version 1.x, as it's bugged and not so rich to do whatever you want. Even things like bit shifting is working bad with int 64. (There's a bug opened)
As I see now, for the last months, the number of bugs fixed is so low that it's too obvious that it's already a minor version which has almost no attention. 4 months for the bit shifting bug and no update.
So considering this, you can't create a professional game, because every little bug here and there is a limit (can be written in a different way, but it will change the game logic and add more code to suit the code you're wishing for).
So that's why I said that paying for upgrade is not a good idea for developers who really intend to use GM to create professional games. (Especially when it seems that GM 2.0 should fix these bugs and add much more features)
Well, GM:S 1.x has been around since 2011, and was a vast improvement over 8.x. So it's been worth buying for a few years. Whether it's worth buying now or not depends on a lot of things, one of which is how soon 2.0 will be released, and whether YYG will be offering discounted upgrade licenses. But Professional is not that expensive, especially when they have a sale, and Standard is free.

I have noticed in the last year that there's been a slowdown in the delivery of new features and bugfixes. Whether this is due to YYG development focus shifting to the 2.x release, or due to being acuired by PlayTech, I can't say, but as a customer I'd hope it was the former, and am concerned that it could be the latter. My expectation is that PlayTech has resources that can accelerate YYG's develpment of GM:S, but whether they intend on that is hidden.

I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the ground-up rewrite of the IDE so they can finally retire the Delphi codebase that has created such obstacles to delivering new features. If that's coming soon, and indications seem to be that it is, and if 2.0 is as good as we hope, then I'll be pretty happy.

But I highly doubt that we're ever going to see a bug-free product. The best we can hope for is that bug count will reduce over time, and that the time to resolve a bug that is reported will reduce over time.
 

Yal

🍋 *lemon noises*
GMC Elder
The bug discussion reminds me of a graph along these lines...
upload_2016-7-28_1-45-41.png

Basically, bugs get removed over time, but each time there's a major update that introduces new features, there are also new bugs introduced, and as they get reported, the number of reported bugs increase... before the team manages to get rid of them with consecutive patches. Eventually the program gets discontinued and the number of bugs remains at a constant level forever.
 
D

Drewster

Guest
There are a lot of good reasons not to release plans:
1- Changes in plans tick off your user base
2- Great ideas get copycatted by others
3- Public companies get in trouble for information which some of the public has but others do not.

And the best one:

4- News of a upcoming product will kill sales of the current product. As a consumer you would love to know if a new major release of GMS was coming out, say, in December. Most likely you'd hold off on your module upgrades or whatever you were thinking of doing. But I've seen this one happen before -- company releases news of updated product, sales of current product dive, new product is delayed, then company looks at dovetailing sales of current product and scraps both the old and new version.
 

csanyk

Member
There are a lot of good reasons not to release plans:
1- Changes in plans tick off your user base
2- Great ideas get copycatted by others
3- Public companies get in trouble for information which some of the public has but others do not.

And the best one:

4- News of a upcoming product will kill sales of the current product. As a consumer you would love to know if a new major release of GMS was coming out, say, in December. Most likely you'd hold off on your module upgrades or whatever you were thinking of doing. But I've seen this one happen before -- company releases news of updated product, sales of current product dive, new product is delayed, then company looks at dovetailing sales of current product and scraps both the old and new version.
None of these stops good companies from having a public road map.

1) unannounced changes in plans that surprise users tick them off way, way more. Plans are always subject to change. Public plans get feedback from the public that can change plans for the better.

2) Ideas by themselves are worthless. Implementation is what sells. If you can't implement better than the competition, you don't deserve to stay in business. But if you talk about your ideas, and act on feedback, your implementation will be better.

3) What does this even mean? Public is public.

4) Maybe for some products. Not so much with point releases that are free for people who already own the product. But knowing the road map for a product gives purchasers confidence that it is moving in a direction at a velocity that you can be comfortable with, and that the product has a bright future and will be where you want to be down the road.
 
N

NPT

Guest
3- Public companies get in trouble for information which some of the public has but others do not.
This is a reason to publicly release information.

You can never be accused of selectively making information available if it is formally released.

4- News of a upcoming product will kill sales of the current product. As a consumer you would love to know if a new major release of GMS was coming out, say, in December. Most likely you'd hold off on your module upgrades or whatever you were thinking of doing. But I've seen this one happen before -- company releases news of updated product, sales of current product dive, new product is delayed, then company looks at dovetailing sales of current product and scraps both the old and new version.
You're kidding right?

I'm not saying that this comment doesn't have merrit, it does, but I don't know how you can apply it to the GM:S v2. Playtech publicly commented that v2.0 is under development and was to be released in 2015.

http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=655444

Playtech said:
Will the development roadmap of GameMaker change at all in the short and long-term?
Playtech will add more resource and we’re working closely with the existing team to add several new features that will extend GM’s capabilities. The wider plan is GameMaker 2.0. This is under development and will be completed later this year. GameMaker 2.0. will be a major release that is based on a long time roadmap that YoYo founders have shared with us based on the developers’ community requests, this was one of the reasons we decided to invest and acquire YoYo in the first place.
That announcement was made Feb 2015.

And now they are staying silent?
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
None of these stops good companies from having a public road map..(snip)
I suspect Mike and others at YoYo agree with that, to some extent.

When Mike says "they can't release any details", he isn't saying public companies can't ever release public information. He's saying that they (at YYG) aren't allowed to do so. Simply put, it's not their decision anymore.
 

csanyk

Member
I suspect Mike and others at YoYo agree with that, to some extent.

When Mike says "they can't release any details", he isn't saying public companies can't ever release public information. He's saying that they (at YYG) aren't allowed to do so. Simply put, it's not their decision anymore.
If that's the case, it's yet another reason to resent the PlayTech acquisition. Customers who feel as I do should make their voices heard.
 

FrostyCat

Member
Then count me as not being one of them.

When large, post-indie game and software firms announce release dates, at least 90% of the project's development would have been completed at that point. It puts them in a near-certain position to follow through on it. Credibility over amicability.

In contrast to mouthing off deadlines at a whim and then missing them one after another, I like this new hype-free YoYo a bit better.
 

csanyk

Member
Then count me as not being one of them.

When large, post-indie game and software firms announce release dates, at least 90% of the project's development would have been completed at that point. It puts them in a near-certain position to follow through on it. Credibility over amicability.

In contrast to mouthing off deadlines at a whim and then missing them one after another, I like this new hype-free YoYo a bit better.
Roadmaps are not deadlines.
 

FrostyCat

Member
Roadmaps aren't deadlines, but once released, it is public information like deadlines. The public will make decisions and pass judgement according to them. Mouthing off roadmaps on a whim and then missing the items one by one reflects just as badly on YoYo and Playtech.

Given how YoYo has already reneged on a publicized deadline on Playtech's watch, the most likely penalty for that slip-up would be taking away YoYo's carte blanche on announcements and forcing silence on GMS2 until it is almost certain to be released on time.
 

csanyk

Member
Roadmaps aren't deadlines, but once released, it is public information like deadlines. The public will make decisions and pass judgement according to them. Mouthing off roadmaps on a whim and then missing the items one by one reflects just as badly on YoYo and Playtech.

Given how YoYo has already reneged on a publicized deadline on Playtech's watch, the most likely penalty for that slip-up would be taking away YoYo's carte blanche on announcements and forcing silence on GMS2 until it is almost certain to be released on time.
NOTHING on a road map is a promise. It's a PLAN. Plans CHANGE. People can be made to understand this. People complain all the time about every little thing you can imagine.

A successful company doesn't cater to the chronic complainers, or try to conform to the haters. They plan, they announce, they execute. If realities necessitate that plans must change, they announce the change, and why it's necessary, and continue to execute to deliver the best.

If you don't want a road map, you don't have to read it. I can't believe anyone says, "I'd rather buy GM:S not knowing anything about what the future has in store." It's ridiculous to suggest that that's the better world to live in.
 
R

Roger Robertson

Guest
Not meaning to bump this thread, however...

I would think that it would be a good idea to be more forthcoming on the current edition. Like when will the required mobile extensions be updated? When will the SDK be brought up to requirements? I bought gamemaker to export sellable mobile apps. Unless I use PRE-Beta editions of gamemaker I can't do that. As I have posted...
If no changes by Sept 17th the following will occur:

LIBPNG ISSUE: Beginning September 17, 2016, Google Play will block publishing of any new apps or updates that use vulnerable versions of libpng.
ADMOB ISSUE: In order to ensure that your ads continue to serve after September 15th, 2016, please upgrade to Google Mobile Ads SDK 7.0.0 or higher.

So does this sum it up as of now?
NOT complaining just trying to get a grip on GM:S for Android.
I AM SURE that YoYo WILL have these issues fixed by the deadlines.
My goal with this is to let Android publishers know to be ready to update their Apps.
You can Publish until the deadlines. BUT THE CLOCK IS TICKING AWAY.
Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.
 

gnysek

Member
In fact a roadmap don't need to include dates, so then it can be published. But, here it's more about "we have 100 ideas on internal roadmap, but not all are 100% sure". So as long it's not publish, things can be easily removed and nobody will notice.

In fact there was one thing public on roadmap - that last summer they will show some sneak peek - and after one year long, still nothing...
 

csanyk

Member
Another benefit of having a public roadmap is it can eliminate a lot of useless speculation talk about ideas people have for the future of GM:S and what they'd like to see in upcoming versions.

Instead of having conversations like:

"Hey it would be great if YYG did XYZ;
no that would never happen;
but it should;
but it's dumb;
but it isn't;
you can already do ABC instead;
but XYZ is better;
no it isn't;
yes it is;
doesn't matter they'll never do it;
you don't know that;
i'm more plugged into the rumor sources than you are so i do."​

or

"Hey does anyone know if YYG are going to do XYZ?;
No no one knows except YYG and they're not talking;
Well I hope they do;
Maybe they will;
Any idea when?;
No it'll be done when it's done, if it's ever done."​

We could be having conversations like:

"Hey i can see that YYG is planning on doing XYZ in the 1.7 branch, but I see am opportunity for them to do WXYZ instead, which would allow game developers do even more with LMNOP that we'll be getting in 1.6.;
but how would that work, exactly?;
specifics;
i think it would be even better if;
yes that's a good idea;
YYG here -- we were thinking this as well, but W probably can't happen until 1.8, due to priorities and limited resources, so we're currently projecting that it may happen then but as always things may change;
Huh, cool! ok."​

Which is a lot more focused and productive, because it starts from an established, official source and not pure speculation, it can therefore get right into talking about specifics without a bunch of wasted back-and-forth about whether it's even likely to happen, and it gets YYG's customers involved in the development of the product, such that YYG gets some useful feedback and insight into what their customers really want and need, and gives them direction about where to go next or how to go about providing future features.
 
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