Pretty talented coder, can't commit to an idea?

AllCrimes

Member
I've been coding in GML for many years, but I find that I spend a lot of time coding game 'parts' and never fully take the leap of filling these systems with the creative 'blood' that makes up a game. I've coded huge top down streaming worlds, random terrain and structure generation, inventory systems, crafting systems, world maps, AI that takes cover and works together, stealth, you name it I've gotten a wild hair one day and coded it just to see if I could.

The problem is that none of these things in and of themselves constitutes a 'game'. They are just features with no life poured into them. I purposefully steer clear of the creative parts in lieu of making the systems that contain them. For instance I have an inventory system that can display item information from a database of items with captions, icons, unique behaviors etc, but the database itself contains about 10 items because I never wanted to delve too much into the 'creative' part of making new ones. Doing that would mean I had committed to an idea for a game.

I've always thought I wanted to make a game, but maybe I just wanted to make the systems that make the games do what they do, or maybe I haven't found the right project, or I'm totally right brained and incapable of thinking up a formula for fun. Sometimes I think I ought to join a team, work on someone elses idea, but I work QA (for an actual game company funny enough..) and go to school for programming and I'm not sure I could meet the time requirements.

Anyone experienced this? Have thoughts?
 

AllCrimes

Member
Thanks for the reply. I see you do some work on the marketplace, is it worth doing? I'm not really sure how much traffic that place gets, though I have bought some things from there myself in the past. As for selling programming skill, I saw a couple of members selling their services on fiver and thought that might be a good place. If there are other places where GML is in demand I would be interested in hearing about it.
 

Jabbers

Member
It isn't especially uncommon for people with programming talent to not do very well in the creative / design department. It's also true that people who are great at design can be hopeless coders. One is logical and mathematical, the other is more freeform and imaginative.

It is fairly rare for an excellent, original PC game to be entirely developed by a single person, who has good experience in programming, game design, graphical work, sound design, music composing, and marketing. More often than not, the closest thing you get to a capable indie is a "jack of all trades, a master of none". Most people attracted to game design fit into either the "game designer" category, or the "programmer" category, and the two are a lot more separate than we're led to believe.

I agree with the suggestion that you should team up with people, paid or otherwise.
 

zbox

Member
GMC Elder
Thanks for the reply. I see you do some work on the marketplace, is it worth doing? I'm not really sure how much traffic that place gets, though I have bought some things from there myself in the past. As for selling programming skill, I saw a couple of members selling their services on fiver and thought that might be a good place. If there are other places where GML is in demand I would be interested in hearing about it.
In all honesty, unless you enjoy putting things on the marketplace for the satisfaction of providing other people good services but for little return, or you have a product which people absolutely need and must purchase to develop their game (hint: not most things), look elsewhere.

The marketplace is good but I think it would be hard to get 'niche' products, which, things that people develop for the enjoyment of developing are most likely to be, to gain traction.
 
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DatCodingGuy

Guest
I recommend doing a game jam, Ludum Dare is the most popular. If you're not already familiar with it, in Ludum Dare you get 48 hours (solo, or 72 hours with a team) to make a game from scratch based on a theme that's announced.

Basically a theme is announced and you have to make a game based around that theme. You can use whatever engine and language you like (obviously GMS in this case) and you go through the entire process of brainstorming, game design, graphics, sound and development all within 48-72 hours.

If you struggle coming up with ideas and piecing together game mechanics to form actual games this is the perfect place to start. You already get given a theme which can help kickstart your ideas, then after the 48-72 hours (depending which one you pick) you have A game that you can continue working on in your spare time. Lots of people in fact take their Ludum Dare games and publish them on Steam (after polishing them first). And even if you don't get around to finishing the game during the jam (which most people don't at first), you'll be able to look back and understand your strengths and weaknesses and how you can improve for next time.

The 48 hour jam is solo so you have to create all your code, graphics, sounds, ect. All by yourself within that 48 hours period, you can't use pre-existing assets. But the 72 hour jam is for teams, it might be worth going on www.ludumdare.com/compo/ and asking around to see if there are some artistic people looking for coders, I'm sure you'll find someone. And in the 72 hour one you can use already made code, graphics and other resources you have.

The next Ludum Dare is on the 21st of April, I expect to see you there! :D
 

JackTurbo

Member
Sounds like you're a great programer and enjoy being a great programer. However being a great programer doesn't necessarily mean you'll be great at game design or art, in fact I'd say they take quite different approaches and suit different ways of thinking.

You can either concentrate at getting better at these things, or be content being the best you can at the thing you enjoy. If you do decide that you're happy concentrating on being a great programmer then perhaps you should look to team up with an artist and game designer to work on a big project? That way you can focus on the areas that you enjoy and are strong at and so can they?

I'm basically the opposite. I think I'm a strong artist and a decent game designer but am a mediocre programmer at best, and that is ok.

Specialisation allows people to become great at certain things, rather than just being ok at many.
 

Electros

Member
Firstly, I wish I had your programming talent!

On your comment, "I'm totally right brained and incapable of thinking up a formula for fun.", I don't believe that you would be incapable, although it may be harder for you. It sounds like you are staying within your comfort zone of programming systems, albeit challenging ones, and avoid the game and mechanics part which would provide the real challenge for you.

Game jams which others have suggested sounds a good idea to challenge you in that aspect. It could also be worth devoting some time to think about the games you have enjoyed most, and what makes them enjoyable to you - write down the one key aspect of each that you think makes it shine (although there are almost certainly multiple aspects, and a lot to do with mechanics). It might spark off some ideas of a game that you want to create, or even a favourite genre to start with, rather than the systems behind it.
 
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zendraw

Guest
i think you need to get past the threshold, so just make a game, any game. find a game that some1 made and make your version of it. but first make all of the material it will need like art and sound, and plan it all out. and while planing it envision how will you code this, and that, just to be clear that you wont waste time figurin out how to do this and that.
so in the end you shuld simply code it from start to finish without bothering about optimisation and such nonsense.
the whole opoint is to get accustomed to use your knowledge and exercise it, and not simply gain. you will never finish anything if you just learn and optimise. and you need the experience of completing a project. its a very valuable experience!
look at your knowledge as lego parts. with which you can make somthing fun, if you dont know what, just copy somthing as i explained and get accustomed to completing. and dont worry about creativity, it will come on its own once your free from this trap your in.

a game is basically anything thats fun.
 
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dj_midknight

Guest
I sort of run into this myself. I am great at coming up with game concepts, mechanics, and the overall feel of a game but I am sort of terrible when it comes down to completing a game. Level design is definitely not my strong suit. I am a functional artist, but definitely not great at designing characters, animals, etc.

I highly recommend teaming up with someone more artsy. Also the suggestion about game jams is also good. Nice thing about a Jam is you are given a topic, and a deadline. You wont create a super sophisticated game, but if you can turn in a functional game by the deadline you will feel a sense of accomplishment.
 
It isn't especially uncommon for people with programming talent to not do very well in the creative / design department. It's also true that people who are great at design can be hopeless coders. One is logical and mathematical, the other is more freeform and imaginative.

It is fairly rare for an excellent, original PC game to be entirely developed by a single person, who has good experience in programming, game design, graphical work, sound design, music composing, and marketing. More often than not, the closest thing you get to a capable indie is a "jack of all trades, a master of none". Most people attracted to game design fit into either the "game designer" category, or the "programmer" category, and the two are a lot more separate than we're led to believe.

I agree with the suggestion that you should team up with people, paid or otherwise.
^This

I believe I fall into the same boat as the OP, I will think of a great idea and code it successfully where it be a small system of events or a complex system where multiple parts depend on eachother, but it never turns out to be a fully functional game.

The quote mentioned above has put this into perspective. I never thought I would see it this way but I can totally relate, thank you. I now see I am more logical, not exactly mathematical with some spice of imagination.

In this regard, I am hoping to set some goals and become better on the design part, this is actually going to fall part of my end year plan to finish the development of multiple games I would like to hold as a portfolio.

Kudos to this topic and the OP, the realization you just put me through XD Thank you!

EDIT: and Kudos to everyone replying, thank you :)
 
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jb skaggs

Guest
You need to team up with a great game producer / designer who can gives you the challenges of structural coding while freeing you from the creative aspects.
 

Genetix

Member
Sometimes the best thing to do is focus on a much smaller project. Build a working Brick Breaker game - feature complete, and polished. This isn't exactly a project that will takes weeks or months. Set yourself a goal to finish in 3 days, make a weekend of it or something if you have time. Layout everything you need for the game to be ready to ship on paper or digitally and check those items off. Finishing this small game may not seem like much, but it will help you work on that last 10% of game design and publishing that most people never get to. Go ahead and publish the game somewhere, or just share it so you can get some feedback.

It doesn't have to be a Brick Breaker clone, but create a very simple project that doesn't need to many advanced systems. Completing can give you experience and a boost towards eventually completing larger projects. Good luck!
 

NazGhuL

NazTaiL
Sometimes the best thing to do is focus on a much smaller project. Build a working Brick Breaker game - feature complete, and polished. This isn't exactly a project that will takes weeks or months. Set yourself a goal to finish in 3 days, make a weekend of it or something if you have time. Layout everything you need for the game to be ready to ship on paper or digitally and check those items off. Finishing this small game may not seem like much, but it will help you work on that last 10% of game design and publishing that most people never get to. Go ahead and publish the game somewhere, or just share it so you can get some feedback.

It doesn't have to be a Brick Breaker clone, but create a very simple project that doesn't need to many advanced systems. Completing can give you experience and a boost towards eventually completing larger projects. Good luck!
Do that but just plan like 3 levels, a main menu, a ending credit. A short game. Look and take some free or cheap assets.
 

Genetix

Member
That's another part of the discussion worth talking about. I am not great at art myself, but can do sprites if needed. The problem is I can sink hours into working on graphics and end up losing motivation to work on the rest of the game. It's good to either work through the game with programmers art, knowing you can replace it later... or to find use-able assets right off of the bat. This would be a great area to find a team member on, if you can code the systems and have someone else focus on art or sound, together you could really put together something nice without losing to much time.
 
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GM029

Guest
That's how I'm going about it now, all placeholder graphics, sounds and music. I know trying to create perfect graphics before programming will stall the whole thing. I'd rather get the actual game in place then replace the graphics/sounds/music after the fact. At least for me that gives a far better chance of actually completing a project. If I've done all the work to program the game then I will definitely finish up the graphics and sound at the end. Vice versa I'm not so sure.

Now the problem is that I've put in classic game music that fits the levels perfectly, I want to keep them lol. But, eventually I will have to swap those tracks out.
 

AllCrimes

Member
Well I just got home from work and took a look at the post. I've got to say reading through all of your replies has helped me a lot and I thank you all for it. It's a frustrating place to be in when you feel like you have the tools to make something but some abstract missing piece is keeping it from happening.

Electros said:
It sounds like you are staying within your comfort zone of programming systems,
Thanks! And yes, it's totally a comfort thing. When it comes to design there's so much room for interpretation, whereas I feel there's less of that when it comes to code. Sure there's different ways to do things, and efficiency to think about, but ultimately it's very orderly. It's easier for me to tell up from down and there's not much risk involved in being bold.

blacklemon said:
i think you need to get past the threshold, so just make a game, any game. find a game that some1 made and make your version of it.
A threshold is exactly what it feels like. Some invisible barrier keeping me from what I want to do when it's right there in front of me if I can just push past it. Remaking a game someone made already is a great idea, and it's probably what I will try next. I've got a game in mind in fact.

Genetix said:
Sometimes the best thing to do is focus on a much smaller project.
Agreed, I used to play this game on NDS called Glory Days, it was a pretty simple side scrolling flyer that I think I could make an even more basic version of with not a lot of advanced coding. I could maybe even do a version of it over a weekend and just push it out. It wasn't very popular but it was simple and pretty fun.
 
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gmx0

Member
Even as someone who has many games finished under my belt, I still struggle with this. Always, always finish the small games. Big games usually spring up from smaller ones growing, especially for a lone designer.
 

Fern

Member
I went day to day exactly as you have, for about 8 years. Something clicked one day and I realized that ideas aren't profitable. Systems by themselves can be profitable but in reality, there is hundreds of others who have done it already and better than you ever could.

This is what splits the "stuck up successful" developers from the hobbyists, and the "I've made 10 bad mobile games and still can't pay my bills" developers.
You have to take that step that most don't and stick with an idea. No matter what happens, you won't love your idea 100% because you are human and we can never really settle for anything. But if you want to make it in this field and not just be another programmer, then break that barrier for yourself.

There is a reason that the majority of developers don't make games for a living.
 
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Zefyrinus

Guest
Haha, you can team up with me. :p I'm a designer, but I'm the worst at programming and always get stuck on unsolvable bugs in my projects.

Seriously though, it might help if you work together with someone and have to deliver code your partner is asking for.

Another thing you could try is to make like a schedule or flow chart when you start a new game project, and make a rule to stick to this plan. So you identify all the tasks that need to done and write them down, and also decide in what order you are going to do things. You can probably already tell in the beginning which tasks are going to be fun and which are going to be boring, so schedule your project in such a way that you don't have several boring tasks in succession. So plan in what order you are going to do things, and don't skip ahead of a boring task to work on something more fun.

And since you already have a lot of ready made stuff, I think it might be a good idea if you catalogued all of this somehow. So when you're working on a project you might be able to use some of the things you've already programmed in the past. So you need a good, searchable catalogue that you can reference.
 

AllCrimes

Member
gmx0 said:
Big games usually spring up from smaller ones growing, especially for a lone designer.
Yeah, that's a good way of thinking about it. I do feel like if I finished one of these smaller projects I would be inclined to build on it and improve as I got more ideas. I'm definitely going to work harder on keeping the focus small and choosing/sticking with an idea without overthinking too much on whether or not it's "just right". It's a big order, mentally speaking, but I know it's what I have to do in order to pass this hurdle.

Seabass (The Human) said:
No matter what happens, you won't love your idea 100% because you are human and we can never really settle for anything.
Very true. I've come a long way in this regard in not rewriting the same code over and over because I don't like the way it's structured. (I don't do that anymore unless it's really bad performance-wise). I need to accept that the same is true for the design half. No project or idea is ever going to be as perfect as I want. Ideas that never come to fruition don't help my situation, in fact it's almost like they never existed really.

Zefyrinus said:
Haha, you can team up with me. :p I'm a designer
If you've got ideas for a small project and/or some artwork definitely PM me with those and we can see if it's a fit for both of us. Again I do go to classes and work QA so times near releases and between homework can make things difficult but I do tend to code for fun on my weekends. That goes for anyone else who has ideas and is willing to deal with some time restraints.
 

Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
I totally agree with the "programming and designing are two different skillsets" idea, but I'd say there's a third major skill involved as well - content creation. Being a good designer means you have the ability to come up with very good ideas, and then cherrypick the best, most suitable idea. Being a good content creator means you can consistently come up with ideas that aren't bad, which isn't quite the same. Designers and Content Creators both come up with ideas with random 'greatness', good designers has a high max value and good content creators has a high min value. (And of course you can be a good designer AND a good content creator, but most people lean towards either end on the spectrum).

You can't make any substantial game without some sort of filler content in-between the important, memorable bits, but with a good content creator involved it won't FEEL like filler. And of course, without a good designer, the memorable important bits won't feel that way, and the entire game feels like filler.

(Personally, I'd say that I'm a better content creator than I am a designer, which is why I've gotten this insight - my two best friends are a good designer and a good programmer respectively and they both have problems creating the 'meat' of a game)
 
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