Platformer combat - your opinion

N

nlolotte

Guest
Hello,

I am making a metroidvania and need some advice/opinions on what would work best for combat.

1. Enemy health bars?
I was thinking maybe have an item the player can obtain and equip to show enemy health bars if they wanted to see them. All bosses health bars will show regardless but this could be a neat way to allow the player to control the difficulty.

2. Hitting the enemy?
Hitting the enemy has to feel like a rewarding experience. I was thinking maybe a stun for a few frames or knockback the enemy but I don't want to make it to easy to just wail on the enemy until they die whilst they're frozen?

3. Dashing?
Should dashing allow the player to avoid attacks or should this come as an upgrade to the dash? Also Should dashing use MP/Stamina etc or should it be free to use?

Please let me know your opinions on the above.
 
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Zodaris

Member
1. Depends on the feel and flow that you're looking for. Most metroidvania games (that I've seen) go for no health bars to allow the player to discover how much damage they need to do an explore ways to dish it out on their own. But that's not to say you shouldn't have an item that shows them (or even having them from the start). Just saying what the normal practice is.

2. Look to other games in the genre, they all had to solve this same problem at some point. From what I've seen, different enemy types tend to be a solid answer here. Though it also depends on how your combat works. If it's combo based, have enemies do things that could interrupt the combo that the player has to learn to avoid or stop (like self-destructing enemies) while keeping up the combo. If you what more difficult 1 on 1s (or against smaller groups of enemies) maybe have them block attacks or counter attack.

Sadly I don't play this genre as much as I would like, so I'm not sure how useful my advice is. I've looked into it because I do have an idea for one I want to make, but again, I need more experience actually playing the genre.
 

Niels

Member
What I think works best for simple combat (no parrying, counters etc), that the enemy gets knocked back when hit and the player gets knocked back for half or 1/3th of that distance when hitting. That way the player and enemy both have to reposition after every hjt and the hits feel weighty.
 
If you don't want the player to be able to stunlock enemies, you have several options:

1. Make the attacks cost stamina. How much they cost and how quickly stamina regenerates should depend on the pace you're going for, but regardless of the specifics, the point is that the player won't be able to spam attacks too aggressively.

2. Give the enemies invincibility frames, or at least recovery frames during which they can still take damage but can't be stunned or knocked back.

3. Give tougher enemies who have enough health that this sort of thing would be a problem in the first place "rage" attacks. These attacks would trigger either with a small chance after every time the enemy is hit, or with a 100% chance when the enemy takes too many hits too quickly. When it does trigger, they immediately cancel out of their stunned state, and become immune to stun and knockback for the duration of the attack.
 
T

trentallain

Guest
For player feedback in combat, what you should generally have is enemy knockback, screen shake and controller vibrate if hit, enemy taking a hit sprites, weapon vfx, and of course sound.

So basically:
Sight
Touch
Sound
 
N

nlolotte

Guest
Thanks guys, good feedback. The game is straight up melee combat no combos or counter just push to attack. There are 4 different weapon types (swing, slash, stab, empty handed) so maybe i could use that to affect how the attack hits?
 

RangerX

Member
Hello,

I am making a metroidvania and need some advice/opinions on what would work best for combat.

1. Enemy health bars?
I was thinking maybe have an item the player can obtain and equip to show enemy health bars if they wanted to see them. All bosses health bars will show regardless but this could be a neat way to allow the player to control the difficulty.

2. Hitting the enemy?
Hitting the enemy has to feel like a rewarding experience. I was thinking maybe a stun for a few frames or knockback the enemy but I don't want to make it to easy to just wail on the enemy until they die whilst they're frozen?

3. Dashing?
Should dashing allow the player to avoid attacks or should this come as an upgrade to the dash? Also Should dashing use MP/Stamina etc or should it be free to use?

Please let me know your opinions on the above.

1- I don't like the idea. It doesn't make sense that this character in the game's reality wears something or even can just understand what an healthbar is. I don't like this "mixing the game reality with our reality" think. Fourth wall. At least this healthbar idea sure isn't convincing. Ennemies health bar on/off should be an option in a menu.

2- Focus on the feel of the "hit". Yes a framestop can convey a "hit" very well. This is a good start.

3- You want dashing or dodging? Find the real purpose of the move and make sure its an integral part of the gameplay. Make it matter.
 

Niels

Member
1- I don't like the idea. It doesn't make sense that this character in the game's reality wears something or even can just understand what an healthbar is. I don't like this "mixing the game reality with our reality" think. Fourth wall. At least this healthbar idea sure isn't convincing. Ennemies health bar on/off should be an option in a menu.

2- Focus on the feel of the "hit". Yes a framestop can convey a "hit" very well. This is a good start.

3- You want dashing or dodging? Find the real purpose of the move and make sure its an integral part of the gameplay. Make it matter.
Nier:automata has HUD elements as plugins/items :) I kinda like the idea... can always make it a lifeforce detecting item/spell
 
1- I don't like the idea. It doesn't make sense that this character in the game's reality wears something or even can just understand what an healthbar is. I don't like this "mixing the game reality with our reality" think. Fourth wall. At least this healthbar idea sure isn't convincing. Ennemies health bar on/off should be an option in a menu.
It's okay for games to just be games sometimes. There are tons of amazing games out there that aren't afraid to admit they're games. Players (in general) really don't care, and even often celebrate this. Besides, "The Cube of Zoe let's you detect an enemy's life force" is a completely fine excuse for an item that displays health bars. Not that one is needed!

I agree with your 2 and 3, though. =)
 

RangerX

Member
It's okay for games to just be games sometimes. There are tons of amazing games out there that aren't afraid to admit they're games. Players (in general) really don't care, and even often celebrate this. Besides, "The Cube of Zoe let's you detect an enemy's life force" is a completely fine excuse for an item that displays health bars. Not that one is needed!

I agree with your 2 and 3, though. =)
At least this sounds like a description that makes sense in the game's reality. And the result is the player seeing healthbars in order to "understand" what the peeps inside the game now know.
If a character in the game would make a comment about seeing that healthbar though, now that might be a loss of immersion. Another interesting thing you said... "tons of amazing games aren't afraid to admit they are games". Why games should admit anything? Its not as serious as a media than movies? You don't see that with movies. Exception being a couple of comedies here and there because it doesn't break their funny. Else you never see that. Movies aren't afraid to be serious, immersive and to make you believe you're living through something. That you are immersed into an "experience". I don't see why videogames should be any less immersive and serious. I find it very sad like when you're playing an awesome and serious game like, per example, Metal Gear Solid 3 and then Snake and Colonel speaking about those controller's buttons arriving in the jungle. This completely breaks the immersion and the serious. It wasn't appropriate at all.
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
Hello,

I am making a metroidvania and need some advice/opinions on what would work best for combat.

1. Enemy health bars?
I was thinking maybe have an item the player can obtain and equip to show enemy health bars if they wanted to see them. All bosses health bars will show regardless but this could be a neat way to allow the player to control the difficulty.

2. Hitting the enemy?
Hitting the enemy has to feel like a rewarding experience. I was thinking maybe a stun for a few frames or knockback the enemy but I don't want to make it to easy to just wail on the enemy until they die whilst they're frozen?

3. Dashing?
Should dashing allow the player to avoid attacks or should this come as an upgrade to the dash? Also Should dashing use MP/Stamina etc or should it be free to use?

Please let me know your opinions on the above.
1: Health bars easily clutter the UI, but they've been done right in several games, it's just a matter of not making them too obtrusive (and only add them if you NEED to - if all enemies die in one hit, you're just gonna waste space on the screen with them). The good thing with a healthbar is that you can tell exactly how much damage you do, so it can help when you have a lot of enemies that take lots of hits to kill. The player can feel "OOOH JUST A FEW MORE HITS", and that excitement entice them to push on and take bigger risks. Likewise, seeing that 50 hits barely scratched an enemy can tell them that they should switch up their tactics, or perhaps get better gear (or switch out to a weapon the enemy is weak to). If you're not gonna put straight-out beef-gate enemies in the game, just having damage numbers pop up so the player can tell they're actually damaging an enemy could be enough.

2: Apart from the stamina thing to limit the amount of spamming you can do before you NEED to let the enemy get out of stunlock (which games like Dark Souls and Salt & Sanctuary does), you could have your attacks knock back enemies (so they're eventually out of your reach), or always have backup enemies show up / shoot projectiles at you from the back (so you NEED to move and dodge every once in a while) - stunlocking a single enemy is trivial, but you can't keep a whole room full of enemies unable to act. Perhaps you could also introduce charge attacks that are much stronger than spam attacks.
Also, many games respond to too long stunlock periods by having enemies guard, which blocks your attacks and often break you into a special "ow my attack failed whoa" animation if you keep going - this goes on until you hit the enemy with a guardbreak, or at least a different type of attack. This could also be worth considering.

3: If you have stamina, you definitely should add it in for dashes as well. Stamina is much better than MP for this IMO, since it's recharging quickly and you don't want to punish a player that zooms around looking for collectibles (or just can't fast-travel but still needs to backtrack). Definitely don't make dashing consume a resource you won't automatically get back.


I guess the whole point with the Souls stamina system is to force you to not button mash - if you need to take breaks during combat, you're forced to play more tactically, and it ends up making your gameplay experience feel more engaging. Most of the stuff you do in these games affect your stamina, so you need to pay attention to it as much as you pay attention to your HP, and stronger attacks usually have a higher stamina cost so they're not necessarily better in every situation.
 
@RangerX: Everyone will have different opinions, of course. In an EXTREMELY SERIOUS GRIMDARK GAME, I wouldn't admit anything to the player, you're right. In most games, I think it's fine, though. The player won't care.

The reason most games can get away with it is because they're games, not movies. Games are almost *never* realistic enough to be taken seriously already, because being *ultra serious and realistic about every single facet of gameplay* is going to hurt the game 99% of the time. It's why Breath of the Wild was so 💩💩💩💩ing amazingly good - Nintendo admitted it was a game. The core climbing mechanic of the game isn't realistic at all. Link climbs *anything and everything.* He takes a tiny hangglider out of nowhere to fly around everywhere. Most developers would be afraid to be so bold. "But what about immersion?!" 💩💩💩💩 immersion sometimes, that's what. If you want to make a movie, go make a movie, haha! And yes, BotW had a clothing item that let you see enemy health bars. I could be wrong, but I don't think the game even bothered to explain it, lol.

You mentioned Metal Gear, too. You don't like the more far out elements of it maybe, and that's fine. It's one of the most celebrated gaming franchises in history though, because it's fun.

tldr: you're right that it's good to be serious sometimes in games. It's important to not be afraid of blatantly breaking realism for the sake of gameplay too, though. In this case, I'd use the "life force!" excuse, because it's easy and doesn't change the game design. If there wasn't a good excuse, I'd still use healthbars if I wanted to, though! The player will quickly forgive and forget when they begin enjoying their new item! =)
 

RangerX

Member
I only mean crossing the fourth wall is generally bad in videogames. You did extrapolate wayyyyyyyy more for nothing.
Everything you said about Zelda is awesome. I am not talking about gameplay. Am not saying games should be realistic. Maybe you're missing my point.
The only thing I don't like is the main character telling you "press B". That's all. Crossing the fourth wall -- I don't like it. Just like the actor knocking at the camera adressing you in a movie that isn't a total comedy would be bad. Everything else is fine.
 
I didn't extrapolate for no reason. You asked why games could get away with what movies can't, and that was my answer: games, like comedy movies, are generally already absurd by design. Because of this, players are generally forgiving when the fourth wall is broken in service of gameplay.

Because of that, we should break the fourth wall in service of gameplay if it needs to be broken. You were ready to throw away the healthbar idea because you didn't see a viable in game explanation for it. I think that's a dangerous way to approach game design. You leave a lot on the table that way.
 
S

Storyteller

Guest
Part of what makes the 'metroidvania genre' fun is unlocking new areas with new abilities and weapons.
I want to keep that in mind as I go forward.

1. Enemy health bars?
oldschool games used palettes for this,with an enemy changing color as they get closer to death, often darker and darker red.
how about an item 'monocle of the penguin' or something that allows you to see auras or souls. When active,enemies glow,or have a 'colored fire effect' around them. This is your health bar, the bigger and brighter it is, the more HP they have. The smaller and dimmer, the closer to dying.


2. Hitting the enemy?
you had four weapon types and listed two effects. pair each weapon with a feedback effect.
heavy hits cause knockback, while a precise shot might cause stun. make those variables, knockback and stun. each of the four gets different values, thus one might be low knockback, low stun, but high speed (bare fists?) while a slash might cause stun (pain) and a swing of a hammer,might knockback. damage does not have to scale, a low damage high stun weapon(tranquilizer) or high knockback, high stun(beanbag round) etc.
If done well, enemy resistances to these will require changing weapons for maximum effectiveness against each type of enemy. this brings strategy to the game, making each encounter need different skills, and new encounter will require experimentation.
upgrading or finding new variants of the four basic weapons allows a lot of different options and customization. so a weapon has 4 variables, damage, speed, knockback, and stun (plus any others you want)


3. Dashing?
again, new items that unlock areas in part of the genre.
make these separate. have the 'dash' move unlocked and possibly a 'dash jump' that lets you enter a new area,or a door that closes so you need dash to get through it from where the switch is. you get the idea, you need 'dash' to enter zone x. dash should be a very low stamina cost.
dodge, dashing while invincible, should be a different item, or an upgrade. it might cost more stamina, or some MP. let it open another area, and possibly the ability to defeat a strong mini-boss/gatekeeper early by avoiding its attacks. Id have both branches open, so it different which order you proceed.


I hope these give you some inspiration and open your mind to ways of communicating information to the player without numbers or little green rectangles above the monster's heads.

:cool:
 
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