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People don't believe a single dev can develop High end 3D games.

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I made a post on a gamedev website. It became the hottest post in its history and in my posting history, it is also the most viewed post in that site's history, something I never expected. So what I was telling there was that one person can develop a high poly, high texture next gen graphics 3D game. With Unity or Unreal engine, a skilled person can obviously do it, but these morons couldn't believe it, saying world class nonsense that you need millions of dollars, and a big studio just to draw some polygons and textures and put them together, yet I see lots of 3D games made by solo devs. Banished was made this way, A korean dude made a Quality RPG game, forgotten its name, and a Chinese dude made a Quality FPS. And an Action Adventure in a jungle environment was made with Unity by someone else.
So I thought to myself, these are the kind of pessimistic people who stand in the way of innovation and progress. I expect one of them hangs around this site as well and might see this.
 
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zendraw

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whats your point exactly? you want motivation? ofcorse there are such people i meet them constantly irl.
 
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sponsz

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Really?.... oh ok, I just wanted to motivate and reassure the devs out there so they don't get phased by it.
 
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Kurtis

Guest
So we can get some context. What sort of game are we talking? Budget, timeline?
 
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zendraw

Guest
why? people who quit game dev cus of some jibberish will simply find a new hobby. i highly doubt those people you refered to asked for any1`s opinion if this or that can be done. people who do it simply to feel good about themselvs ask such questions becouse they cant risk to fail so they need reassurence. these are the people that can get demotivated by flip flops on the internet. you dont need to worry about people who love what they do.
 
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sponsz

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Any length, one level, moderately long, very ,very long, anything time or cost allows. Does not have to be current gen Graphics, maybe 5th gen(ps2 era) or late 90s era.
 
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Kurtis

Guest
Any length, one level, moderately long, very ,very long, anything time or cost allows. Does not have to be current gen Graphics, maybe 5th gen(ps2 era) or late 90s era.
Just found the thread. That's quite different from what you posted over there.

You said you were going to make 28 AAA quality games like GTA5 in 4 years, on no budget and a team of one.

That's a GTA5 every 7 weeks.

I can see where they are coming from.
 
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zendraw

Guest
Just found the thread. That's quite different from what you posted over there.

You said you were going to make 28 AAA quality games like GTA5 in 4 years, on no budget and a team of one.

That's a GTA5 every 7 weeks.

I can see where they are coming from.
well it depends. if he can make the engine in 1 year. then he can spend the rest of the time on generic content. BUT only if he is learned and there is no learning process during this time. and he works non stop. dont know about 28, but a couple sure. IF hes a pro coder/artist/sound guy. not sure about the AAA quality thou, altho im not sure what AAA quality is either...
 

Tthecreator

Your Creator!
It's not always just the graphics but also the entire game world and more.
Game studios build up engines from scratch, and all other content from scratch. They don't use generic reusable content. Most often art is recreated.

A korean dude made a Quality RPG game, forgotten its name, and a Chinese dude made a Quality FPS.
How good you might be at your craft, there is always an asian who can do it better than you.
 
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Kurtis

Guest
How good you might be at your craft, there is always an asian who can do it better than you.
Haha! Very true!

Although he can't remember what the game was, so it obviously didn't make a huge impact to him.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
I work in AAA. Have for 14+ years.

If by "high end" you're actually comparing it to AAA games of the last 10 years, then I don't think you understand the fidelity of assets, amount of realization and systemic behavior that goes into these games.

What's the benchmark, exactly? "high end" is not quantifiable.
 
I made a post on a gamedev website. It became the hottest post in its history and in my posting history, it is also the most viewed post in that site's history, something I never expected.
Link? Could do with seeing the original to get some context around what you are talking about.
 
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zendraw

Guest
I work in AAA. Have for 14+ years.

If by "high end" you're actually comparing it to AAA games of the last 10 years, then I don't think you understand the fidelity of assets, amount of realization and systemic behavior that goes into these games.

What's the benchmark, exactly? "high end" is not quantifiable.
can you shed some light about 'the fidelity of assets, amount of realization and systemic behavior'??? i want to know what you have in mind, i feel it might help me in my dev.
 

Dog Slobber

Member
So I thought to myself, these are the kind of pessimistic people who stand in the way of innovation and progress. I expect one of them hangs around this site as well and might see this.
Could you please explain how these pessimistic people are actually standing in the way of innovation and progress?
 
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sponsz

Guest
I work in AAA.
You do? Ok, please explain to the folks at Gamedev.net how long does it typically take to develop a current gen 3D game (like Doom 4), how many hours a day do the developers work, what part of the development process is creating the environments, models, textures and other in-game assets, are there any side projects, creating a new engine, tweaking an existing engine. The time taken in polishing and testing. The time spent outside asset creation and coding.

Here is my reasoning on that post: Because with Unity and Unreal engine 4, the user has most of the tools needed to create a similar title given enough time. (Minus the voice acting and using other modes of animating other than the motion capture rig). Many necessary assets can even be got from the internet free. Reducing the number of devs to one means no salary involved. Putting existing assets together, well it has got to be a piece of cake. But the game does not have to be so long, only the length that reasonable time will allow.

This is what I was trying to tell those at Gamedev, It seems they misunderstood my definition of AAA, but in that post my definition is as follows:

I mentioned an AAA type game, meaning any 3D game that is by my definition a game with the quality similar to a title typically released by professional game dev studios of any length and size, with any generation, including 4th to 5th generation technology (n64 to ps2 era).

So from the above definition, I was trying to explain that a skilful sole dev can develop a Quality 3D game of any length or size (including current gen) that time will allow. And they are flaming me for being highly ambitious, iron willed and optimistic.
 
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FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
So from the above definition, I was trying to explain that a skilful sole dev can develop a Quality 3D game of any length or size (including current gen) that time will allow.
Then perhaps the most productive way to disprove them is to BE that skilful solo dev yourself, and make that high quality 3D game in your stated timeframe and resource constraints. Having the tools is the easy part, it's making them work together that takes time, effort and expertise.

If your conjecture is true and you can prove it, then that's something not just game developers can learn from. But until then, given where you decided to take the soapbox, you just look like a pretentious, arrogant big-mouth trying to lecture professionals at what they're doing.
 
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sponsz

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@FrostyCat I just didn't expect that they would be on such a different wavelength and level of assumption. They misunderstood me, but not all of them. Perhaps I should have developed first since actions speak louder than words. (I hope that's not an insult)
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
@FrostyCat I just didn't expect that they would be on such a different wavelength and level of assumption. They misunderstood me, but not all of them. Perhaps I should have developed first since actions speak louder than words. (I hope that's not an insult)
They get to be on a different wavelength and make the assumptions they do, because they're doers. You are just a sayer.

Let me tell you something about professional programmers. Many of those with a formal post-secondary computer science background remember the ideologues who entered the major just to show everyone off about how "real" programming should be done. That veneer of authority falls off as soon as the first assignment or lab is scheduled. They put their foot in their mouths when they fail to do simple tasks, some as simple as just writing loops or even assigning variables. Then these former loudmouths go out with a whimper, change majors to sour grape cultivation, and whine about "weed-out courses" and "student apathy". The professionals saw that stereotype in you, projected the associated sentiments at you, and acted the way they did.

You come in looking like a duck, quacking like a duck, walking like a duck and doing nothing to show that you aren't a duck. Don't be surprised when you are treated like a duck.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
You do? Ok, please explain to the folks at Gamedev.net how long does it typically take to develop a current gen 3D game (like Doom 4), how many hours a day do the developers work, what part of the development process is creating the environments, models, textures and other in-game assets, are there any side projects, creating a new engine, tweaking an existing engine. The time taken in polishing and testing. The time spent outside asset creation and coding.

Here is my reasoning on that post: Because with Unity and Unreal engine 4, the user has most of the tools needed to create a similar title given enough time. (Minus the voice acting and using other modes of animating other than the motion capture rig). Many necessary assets can even be got from the internet free. Reducing the number of devs to one means no salary involved. Putting existing assets together, well it has got to be a piece of cake. But the game does not have to be so long, only the length that reasonable time will allow.

This is what I was trying to tell those at Gamedev, It seems they misunderstood my definition of AAA, but in that post my definition is as follows:

I mentioned an AAA type game, meaning any 3D game that is by my definition a game with the quality similar to a title typically released by professional game dev studios of any length and size, with any generation, including 4th to 5th generation technology (n64 to ps2 era).

So from the above definition, I was trying to explain that a skilful sole dev can develop a Quality 3D game of any length or size (including current gen) that time will allow.
I'll tackle the visual/environment parts, since this is my area of expertise. There's so much work involved into creating a believable world than just making an asset flip (Steam already has tons of those, and they are of generally very poor quality). Buying/finding assets doesn't automatically make the world you're building. Finding assets certainly doesn't make a coherent or interesting world unless you put the work into it.

I'm a level artist. When I started working in the industry we did most of the visual part of a level ourselves. A single level artist (with the help of a level designer, who does the gameplay part) would model a low resolution version of the level respecting the designer's rules. They would also create a couple placeholder textures or use some already available. The level is kept low-ish resolution because the artist and designer need to iterate several times on the level, make changes to the layout, try new creative ideas, cut sections because of time/budget, etc. Then the artist would refine the modeling and textures to a shippable level of quality. in some cases a dedicated modeler/texture artist would help out for certain assets, like statues or a texture of a unique painting, and tweak textures for color consistency, but back then it was pretty common for the level artist do have been responsible for 90% of the graphical assets a level (characters and effects excluded).

An important detail is lot of work goes into scene composition and flow.

This is aside from the actual graphic assets themselves. These is the decisions to where things are and how they're integrated, and this is an enormous amount of work that can't simply be downloaded, or automated by a plugin in Unity. it's not enough to simply model an environment and call it done. You need to study the style the art director wants so that it's consistent with the rest of the game. Also extremely important are reveals and first impressions when entering any area. What does the player see first? is there anything in the way? Is the point the player needs to be attentive of framed by the rest of the environment? Can I have the sunlight hit the point of attention to highlight it? Does that angle of the sun make sense for the rest of the level? Where do I put the most detail in an area? Where do I specifically avoid putting detail to not attract attention to stuff that would confuse the player? Does this thing look like a ledge that I can climb? Should the player be able to climb it? If it looks like a ledge but I don't want the player climbing up on that balcony, how do I block it in a way that makes sense, visually? Is this a grocery market stall and how do I make it look convincing? At what angle do I enter the grocery market? I see it's from this angle, but then all the roofs of the stalls are in a boring even line and equidistant from each-other. How do I fix that to make it more pleasing to the eye? What if I raised some of the stalls on a platform? How does that impact the AI who doesn't like the small step? x1000 other questions a level artist has to consider when building the environment. Clarity, first impressions, flow, environmental storytelling (what happened here), does it look lived-in, etc. All very important. And then there is all the re-doing of all of the above, if needed.

Composition and visual storytelling is VERY important. And it's a LOT of work if you're trying to raise the bar high. You just can't download that part of creating an environment like you can an asset. It's a big reason why 99% of asset-flips on steam look terrible, even though the quality of individual assets might be okay. Because little thought is put into composition and visual storytelling. Where you end up with something that has no consistency, clashes with itself, is visually too noisy (random detail in the wrong places), looks empty yet runs poorly, etc.

Level artists usually have help from concept artists who do paintovers or photobashes (collages from photos) for what the layout of key areas should look like. The background of an important cinematic for example. But there isn't enough time or budget for concept art to be done of every angle of an environment, so the level artist usually has to do most of the visual storytelling/composition work themselves.

Oh, also, there are the tech limitations you have to consider at all times. is there enough occlusion in the terrain or architecture? What if an area up ahead lags a bit, should I bottleneck the gates leading up to it? How do I do that, by changing the model of the gate a bit? Or stacking crates at eye-level on the side of the gate? What if an area needs to not have the framerate drop below 40 because it's a boss fight? New considerations have to be met. Then there's memory. The biome assets I use in one area use 8 2k ground textures but the next area is running out of memory. Can I sacrifice one of my 8 ground textures? This gravel looks too similar to this small pebble texture, I think I can substitute one for the other. Better start repainting parts of my terrain. You're also probably in charge of collision meshes and making all that respect the game physics.

MOST importantly, most of this has a subconscious effect on the player. They're enticed and guided to go in certain places without realizing it. They enter an area and are in awe with how beautiful it looks. Half of the reason is the fidelity of the assets, yes, but the other half is the visual storytelling, the framing, the good use of negative space, etc.

The AAA graphics pipeline has changed dramatically since 10-15 years ago. Now, level artists do far less modeling and texture art, and focus more on composition, layout and visual storytelling. The reason is simply because the fidelity of individual assets now is way too high to be done by one person, so you have teams of modelers doing their magic in zbrush, maya, max and substance painter. The assets are then given to the level artists (this is an oversimplification, there are many more steps before this)... who push the visual storytelling I described earlier to the highest level they can muster, all while respecting technical limitations and gameplay vision.

This is where using existing assets can be a benefit. If one understands that composition and visual storytelling (without needing to actually create the assets) is just as much work in modern games, as modeling/texturing the level as well as doing the composition stuff was, back then. The difference comes with how much higher the bar is now, as well as the object density. How much more involved the player is with the environment the player is in new games, vs older games where the artist did everything.

The positive reaction a player gets when playing a game comes from a whole lot more than just the fidelity of assets, or the stability/featureset of an engine. It takes an enormous amount of work, depending on how you define your "high end" bar. Which is why I asked what your benchmark was. It can be done by one person, if you properly define "the scope of your game, and what "high end" means. You're never going to make a GTA V-like game by yourself, even if you can find every single asset the game needs, freely available, as well as the perfect engine for it. You might be able to make "a map the size of GTA", with "GTA-like assets in it", but it won't feel very good to the player. It won't feel "high end".

Because you won't have spent the thousands of manhours into considering every aspect, every reveal, every angle the player can see a landmark, how the landmarks are framed, what stories the environment tells (even from existing assets), the proper balance of negative space and highlighting important gameplay elements, while respecting technical constraints, all resulting in the Lump Sum of the player uttering "wow, this game feels high end!" when entering the area. And that's just for one department (environment art), out of many that game dev involves.

But if you're just making a single-room party-game with the same visual fidelity of AAA, then yes. A single individual could do that. It's in large part about scope, which needs to be defined.

I'm only scratching the surface.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
As a side-note, from the gamedev thread:

"You don't need a motion capture rig, anyone can do it from something as simple as animated gifs (trace animations from photos)."

If you think rotoscoping a gif is a good alternative to motion capture, then you simply aren't sensitive to what "high end" is. Read my paragraph above about what subconscious effects the environment has to the player. It can be applied to animation, lighting, sound, AI, every aspect of a game. If you just hack it, players will definitely feel a big difference, even if they can't pinpoint the reason for it (because they aren't developers).
 
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Misty

Guest
Fun fact. I made a 3d game demo and it had the most views on the GMC for a while, then it was surpassed by a clickbait title called "Best Game Ever".
Does this mean I can make a AAA quality 3d game all by myself, without a million dollars?

Fun fact, I also made a Mario Kart game, but you know what I never released it. Because the tracks didn't just have the quality needed to reach mario heights.

If you want to make a game with good quality assets what you need to do is have a little help from friends.

Sponz, stop interefering with my plans to get a million dollars funded into my patreon.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
Another side-note: Inside is an amazing game that has profound visual storytelling and strong scene composition, while having extremely "low" fidelity assets. Low-ish polygon count, low-ish object density and sparse textures. You can't simply download (as assets) what made the visuals of Inside great. It's all visual storytelling skill.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/05/12/how-insides-levels-were-designed/
 
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Dog Slobber

Member
The topic the OP is referring to on GameDev was 10 pages long and a lot of experienced and very bright people contributed to it.

All the OP came away with was they must have misunderstood him and they are a bunch of morons.

but these morons couldn't believe it, saying world class nonsense that you need millions of dollars
The topic was closed there. So he came here completely misrepresented the topic, and hopes to continue it here. This topic is destined to a similar fate, a lot of people will spend there time creating well thought out responses, it will be lost on the OP and he'll move on referring to everyone here as morons.

Don't waste your time.
 
The topic the OP is referring to on GameDev was 10 pages long and a lot of experienced and very bright people contributed to it.

All the OP came away with was they must have misunderstood him and they are a bunch of morons.
I read through the whole thing and gotta agree with the consensus of the posters in that topic. Also the tone, attitude, and responses from the OP of that thread remind me of some topics/posts that have been happening over here as well. :eek:
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
So much wrong in one topic...

1) This is the GameMaker forum, and as such is not a place to dicsuss other engines
2) Using pejorative and offensive words to describe people that don't agree/understand you
3) No actual discussion in the OP... simply an exposition about another topic on another forum that isn't even linked to
4) Obvious lack of respect for the hard work of other people (especially those that work in "AAA" game making)
5) Complete lack of evidence to back up the exposition of the OP

So, my suggestion would be - go and MAKE those 28 AAA games in 5 years then come back to tell us all how wrong we are. Until then, topic closed as it's really going nowhere and has already broken a few forum rules... ;)
 
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