Discussion P2W should be banned!

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Smiechu, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Pay to win scheme should be banned in game development industry! Most of the games using this scheme aren't really games. They are very precisely calculated, researched and cold blooded scams! Using physiological tricks and hacks, harvesting on "susceptible" people. With very little or almost none gameplay. This is sick!

    Some would say... "If you don't like it don't play it"... and this is exactly what I do. I mostly play games on PC using "classic financial model" - pay once and have fun.
    I also love playing on handy "in the mean time". And the constellation: Samsung Note (with S Pen) + DosBOX is something wonderful! But playing retro games all the time gets also boring.
    This is the point where my anger towards P2W games begin, there is almost no "worthy" AAA titles on PlayStore which are not P2W games or partially P2W... it's disgusting!
     
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  2. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Ok so here is your big problem... why on earth do you use PS4?!?! Quit wasting money to Sony and ditch them.

    Aside from that, I'm against pay to win method also. I don't like it. Why can't they just make players pay for silly nonsense that doesn't contribute or relate to actual goal/gameplay like a weird top hat with feathers or a retarded dance move?
     
  3. Sk8dududu

    Sk8dududu Member

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    You can't just ban something just because you don't like it. That's illogical. If a company decides to go p2w, they are choosing to do so knowing the risk. This isn't anything new, magic the gathering has always been pay to win and it's been popular for 25+ years.
     
  4. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Play Store is the Google Android App store...

    @Sk8dududu
    It's not I don't like it... I feel that this is killing the mobile gaming sector. For most peaple, mobile games = P2W, and it's mostly true.
    P2W is a scam, which is intentionally made to be addictive, misleading and generating high income. It's equal to things like financial pyramids, hazard games or drugs... In most counties this things are banned or the distribution is regulated by law and very heavily taxed!!!
     
  5. RefresherTowel

    RefresherTowel Member

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    The problem here is what are you gonna do about it? Those companies are making more money than the people who make 'old-school' standard games. It might be frustrating as a designer/lover of games, but it's just the way things are. Also, who's gonna ban it? Which countries governments? Or is Apple/Google/Sony going to ban successful products from their stores? Highly unlikely...

    It sucks, but if you don't like it, don't develop for those consoles/mobiles. Or, alternatively, you CAN develop for them, ignore all those monetisation schemes, make a kick arse game and see if the market will support you. Good luck with that.
     
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  6. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    I'm not talking about developer point of view... I'm talking about simple player's point of view, I would like to see more quality non P2W games for mobile devices the same way like it's still on PC and consoles.

    This type of games are making big profits using unethical practices! The same way as i.e. gambling, and gambling is in most counties strictly regulated by law and heavily taxed. In my opinion the law is not running the same pace as digital media and to much things which in "real world" are long ago not allow, in digital world are doing fine.
     
  7. woodsmoke

    woodsmoke Member

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    Where exactly would you draw the line? Borders often get blurry upon inspection.
     
  8. flerpyderp

    flerpyderp Member

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    I dislike P2W as much as anyone else, but I'm not sure why it's a "scam". You choose to play the game, then decide whether or not you want to spend money on some trivial in-game item or whatever, and if so, you receive said item. It's not that I don't think the P2W model is predatory, I just can't see the distinction between it and say, McDonalds trying their hardest to get as many people to eat as much, and as often as possible of their unhealthy food because they're a business, and business's tend to exist to make money.

    I'm not that familiar with P2W games, so could you explain the unethical practices they're using? I've heard of companies doing things like hiring psycholigists to help them make design decisions which will hook players. Is this unethical? Should non-P2W game devs avoid these design decisions, or is it only unethical when used with the P2W model?

    I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, because I'm really not a fan of this type of game and how the mobile market is flooded with them, but like @woodsmoke is saying, it's not clear where the line is drawn. If some solo indie dev makes a little zombie shooter, and adds some P2W feature like guns that you can only otherwise obtain through playing for hundreds of hours, it doesn't seem that bad. Isn't this the same as what these bigger companies are doing, except they're doing it more successfully?
     
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  9. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    Problem solved. Next.
     
  10. TheouAegis

    TheouAegis Member

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    Most P2W games I have seen aren't worth even playing at all. Unfortunately, if it's one of those games you already have to pay $50 just to get the installer for, then by the time you realize you were suckered into a crappy P2W game, you've already wasted $50. Then again, similar waste-of-money crap like that happens all the time in classic pay models too. I'm still on PS2 and Wii, so the only exposure to P2W i have is mobile apps I don't even play and usually don't even bother downloading.
     
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  11. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Being "passive" doesn't solve problems...

    The problem is - mobile games market is full of crappy P2W-scam-pseudo-games. Finding a good non P2W AAA title is extremely hard and the list of existing titles is very short.
     
  12. Mert

    Mert Member

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    If you observe carefully, all the "buy this crate to get this weapon" type of games are dying out. Pretty much all models switched to "only skins" model.
     
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  13. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    What's the problem again? If you don't like something. Don't play it.

    Maybe I am missing something here.
     
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  14. sitebender

    sitebender Member

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    Good luck regulating it. Would the stores have to regulate it then? You can still post things on your own personal site. Business needs money to function.
     
  15. Andy

    Andy Member

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    Pay to win games are the product of a specific economic system.
    Instead of regulating them, consider advocating for reasonable changes to that system.
    If developers know they will always have a home, food, healthcare, etc, there's less pressure to avoid risk or focus only on profit.
     
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  16. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Yes, the connections between your eyes and brain is missing if you're reading and still don't get what I'm saying.

    Following your "thinking"... please stop posting in this thread if you don't get it...
     
  17. 00.Archer

    00.Archer Member

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    This. As long as profit is the ultimate goal of an organization, they will work towards profiting - whether that will benefit the population or not.
    I would change your last line, though - the ones pressuring for P2W models often are not the programmers/artists/developers themselves. They're implementing it because their manager ordered them to, and that chain goes up to the investors.
     
  18. JackTurbo

    JackTurbo Member

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    Mobile is pretty rife for unpleasant monetization models, but there are some traditionally priced games out there.
    A simple google for best premium games on android/iOS should get you started.
     
  19. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    The question about the definition is very good and this topic is meant to be a discussion, not a 1 vs all battle... I know I've stated a very hard "thesis" but it's meant to draw attention.

    My personal recipe for scam P2W game is:
    neverending (or extremely long and repetitive) + monetization + very low or no influance of player skills on the gameplay result + extremely short actual gameplay time + exponential difficulty and pricing curves...

    The monetization system is an obvious thing...

    But I think the point about low influance of player skills on the gameplay is the most important one. If the game mechanics is mostly build around probability we start to talk about gambling not gaming, and gambling is already heavily regulated around the world. I.e. the threshold of probability of winning in slot machines is regulated around the world and machines have to be verified in certain period.

    Example of above? Asphalt 9 - in single player mode opponents are "adjusted" to your car level, if your level for certain race is to low, disregarding how good drives the player, short before the finish one of the opponents will beat him...
    The multiplayer mode is "saving" this game from being an ultimate scum...

    Second - extremely big exposure to all the prizes, marketing and monetization mambo-jumbo and very short gameplay. Here are all the psychological tricks hidden... the very basic trick is the rewarding - the player constantly gets more and bigger rewards for achieving quite unimportant goals...

    I didn't say there aren't any... best example Rollercoaster Tycoon Classic, or whole bunch of classic game ports like Carmageddon (extremely good port to mobile). But please make a short list today and repeat it after one year, and tell me how many new really interesting high quality titles you've added??
    And this is the thing it's extremely hard to find a non P2W quality game on Google Play Store or even if you do it on your own...


    Regarding the "capitalistic view":
    There is a lot of things in this world which are "making money" but is't not an final argument to let them be legal. Prostitution, drugs, gambling are also making a lot of money but they are illegal or heavily regulated around the world...

    P2W games are 2 in one - game devs working on this kind of games are prostitutes... and the the games that they make are meant to be addictive and meaningless...


    If it goes for implementation... Play Store is already regional in scope taking into consideration restrictions and regulations of single countries. Play Store is also responsible for monetization and related local tax regulations... It's nothing new. Other stores do it also...
    Indirect examples??? If you download Fallout 3 in Germany (disregarding from language version) from Steam you will get version with no gore (no blood, fragmentation etc...).
    In Wolfenstein the authentic nazi symbols are changed to something "neutral"....
    Stores are ready to implement additional filtration and regionalization it's nothing new...
     
  20. Taddio

    Taddio Member

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    Come on, bro...are you still living at your mom's?
    How many corporate gigs did I do just for the money? Can't count them. But they allowed me to not work 40hours week just to pay the bills, it kept my band running and the girlfriends happy.
    Same goes for programmers and devs... I understand the urge to make your opus magnum, and fight the good fight, I really do... But your wife/kids/bankers/bills do not, unfortunately.
    You rather work 40 hours a week in a warehouse? Go for it! Doesn't mean those who don't sold their souls to the devil or are the sole reason the game industry is how it is at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  21. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    You say "end justifies the means..." I say "no it doesn't"...
    And don't worry the free market doesn't like emptiness, the idea is that if you regulate the "scam games" sector, surely more studios and devs will revert to the classic model, the same way as it still functions quite well on PC and consoles...

    If it goes for my personal life... no, I'm a successful mechanical engineer / project manager in medium size company. Generally cash is the last thing I need to worry. That's why I have the time to write the whole BS here :p

    Edit:
    Apropriate analogy to your "Band" example would be...
    Your band instead of practicing and playing better to eventuality get better paid gigs, invests in some strange sonic hypnotizing technology to suck more cash from the "public".
    In the end all the "corpo bands" start to use this technique to suck more money from clients.
    It's not illegal, so nobody can do anything about it.
    Now, I want to have a party with a good live band playing great music, but there aren't any, only the cash sucking hypno-pseudo-bands...
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  22. Taddio

    Taddio Member

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    Then I'm sure you did slacked some people because X money reason, or subcontracted parts in some third world country for X money reason, or...well you get the picture.
    I'm not saying "end justifies means", I'm saying we all work for one reason: money. And making enough+ of it often comes with making compromises.
    And of course, we shouldn't judge hobbyists and professionals by the same standards either, it's easier to work on your love child as a hobbyist, as there's no string-puller/money-backers over your head to add to the pressure
    Capitalism isn't about art, sadly I know that much, trust me on this one.
     
  23. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Making money is ok and it's not a problem. Delivering a product to the customer, fulfilling contract in a rightfull manner, delivering service even if in the backgroud not everything goes as it should is ok, this is capitalism...

    But fraud is not ok... if you advertise your band as a "live band", you sign a contract for a live act and you go to a gig and do everything from playback - this is fraud it's not ok, you can be sued by not fulfilling the contract. If you start a business which is based on MLM practices or financial pyramid this is a fraud, you can go to prison in most counties for this kind of practices. Gambling games with high interest rates are a fraud... selling drugs is mostly illegal... alcohol, tobacco products are highly taxed and regulated etc...
    And the P2W games are similar, they harvest on unaware handy users - kids, older people, or simply naive peaple, without tech-experience or with low IQ levels. This is not ok...
    The capitalism have borders you can't justify fraud with it.
     
  24. RefresherTowel

    RefresherTowel Member

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    Well, lemme correct you on one thing. Capitalism doesn't have borders. People who are tired of capitalism wreaking havoc on society -enforce- borders on capitalism. Capitalism personified would slit your throat and kill your grandma if it meant a bump in quarterly revenue earnings.

    But generally, I don't think you really understand the point of view most of us are coming from. Most of us agree with you on principal. Very few people on this board are going to be getting their jollies off reading user retention data and thinking up monetisation schemes. Some of these games certainly do straddle the line between 'gameplay' and 'gambling', which is both dangerous and unethical. However, it requires governmental action (and it requires it in multiple countries, America certainly ain't everything) before anything will change. And I'd bet that any governmental action that is taken hurts the small time devs who might have a few cosmetic items for sale more than the giant companies for one simple reason: lobbying (perhaps two reasons, the second being the possible ignorance of the people in charge about the complexities of games). Where there's money, there's lobbying and the P2W schemes actually do bring in a lot of money. So little ol' Mary Sue would have to jump through hoops to get some simple purchaseable items in her game, but tencent would find a loop hole somewhere (or make one).

    And I'd also argue that -most- of the P2W style games fall more into the maccas style territory than gambling territory. Yes, they push **** on you, but so does every company ever in the history of companies. In reality, a lot of these companies make by FAR most of their money off a -tiny- segment of their population (we've all heard the term 'whales'). In fact, they specifically adapt their gameplay/monetisation schemes continually based off of data gathered from their whales in order to better "fit" the whales play style. They do not care about 90% of their users. They don't even care if those users leave, beyond the fact that there might be a potential future whale or two amongst the leavers. So people tend to realise they are being sold to continually and either find a rhythm of play that they are comfortable with without spending a lot of money or they leave (and the few that don't do those two things are milked of all their lunch money).

    The real problem is that the market is flooded. If the market weren't so flooded, it would be a lot more viable for 'creative auteur' developers to make a great game, sell it full-priced (whatever that may be on mobile) and make a decent living. But because the market is EXTREMELY saturated, there's no real way to make profits beyond violently and continually pushing users to buy stuff ASAP. This leads to the normal devs who aren't into that sorta thing simply dropping out of the market for that device/OS, which means that the only people who are left are the cutthroat 'monetise at all costs' people. But this is a common problem in capitalism. Nothing matters beyond the almighty dollar. The best thing would be for Apple and Google to moderate their game markets, but this comes with a whole host of other problems and, besides, that would cost profits to do...
     
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  25. deem93

    deem93 Member

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    As far as I know Belgium is already implementing restrictions on those types of games.
     
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  26. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Thanks for the info. Good to know... I'll google a little bit in this direction.
    Like I already said, in Germany gaming market is very restricted in terms of violence, gore and use of ideology and it's symbols. Additionally there is quite huge state program which aims decrease of sexual / emotional abuse and misuse of children in internet - all multiplayer games with live chats would have to eventually implement algorithms and/or proper moderation.
     
  27. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    Only you as the consumer can curve the P2W model. Or even destroy it.

    Maybe it is you that doesn't get it.

    Don't go and complain about something and then go and support it. That is stupid. :)
     
  28. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    Please quote where have I stated that I support P2W games? I played couple of them to quickly find what their all about... I never spend a single penny for a P2W game. I hate this kind of practices in games and I can smell them in kilometers...
     
  29. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    So what's the problem again?
     
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  30. deem93

    deem93 Member

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  31. NeonBits

    NeonBits Member

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    I think what's anoying is that we have followed a path during a time. Then this new marketing plan arrives all of a sudden; our belief thinks that it is fair but to find that some offers are a scam. Anyone has the right to not like it; we have made great schools, have published tons of articles to protect consumers, pointed fingers at people, disliked to be exploited by a brand; it's natural to react when a colorful offer wants you to pay for something that you would get for free five minutes later. It was always like this, to see the direction we're in.

    Videogames have always meant "family game"; the content changed and techonology, but it stayed the same box that parents pay. When, in the past, games had only extensions (and it was often great because you payed a reasonable price for alot in return) and sequels, now it's a whole library of dlc; when you don't have much experience, you just go "wow, look at this!" but when you have followed the road, you say "wow... hey, wait a minute"; specialy when the little one begs you to buy everything fast, ready to call you a bady if you won't, without understanding that you're keeping your cool while deciphering an unecessary offer made to lose again money. Not only it can be irritating but it becomes another pressure. Of course, parents have the last word, but that's not a valid argument. And if the player is smart, it won't work. But that has never been a very good approach; later, it will be a different product or the bills; then voices will change.

    At least, in my arcade time, I didn't had to pay to perform special moves or to get to special characters; I've always seen racing games as a scam when money was necessary to add extra time to finish the race. Maybe that's why we feel exploited; most videogames had a good balance towards money; it was fun oriented and complete.

    Today: you want to change the color of your character like before? Pay. You want a beautiful Light_FX around your character? Pay. Oh, maybe you want less light with same color? Pay. Don't wanna wait thirty minutes before you can play again? Pay. You want merchandise for your factory instead of waiting five minutes? Pay! You want now the items necessary for the goal or to get to next level? Pay. You want a few tools to break that match three puzzle in a sec instead of ten minutes? Pay. Pay because you don't wanna wait; your life expectancy isn't eternal, you know?! It's so absurd that it made a scene in "The Simpsons" where Homer gets mad at one game before buying everything in a belief he's smart; we laugh because we understand it's stupid; but the joke is on us...

    There can be good concepts. But for me a game should always be: the game itself, extensions, and sequels. Not dlc on tons of items and maps that you would pay less later once in a pack, or "extras" supposed to be already included in any good game. But who am I kidding, I'm only a player.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  32. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    Well yeah, they are.

    But the guy in the OP never mentioned this aspect. He is just having a soap box session as to why other people shouldn't have the freedom to play P2W if they want. And many people love it, otherwise it wouldn't exist.
     
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  33. flerpyderp

    flerpyderp Member

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    If we're going to start calling loot boxes gambling, I suppose we should start calling trading cards and similar products gambling too. In fact, every time I buy a bag of Skittles I'm hoping for a high ratio of my favourite flavour, and am often dissapointed to find a high ratio of my least favourite flavour. Are Skittles a form of gambling?

    I think the important difference is that you still receive what you paid for, because you accepted in the transaction that the specific item you receive will be randomly selected. It's not the same thing as giving away your money and getting nothing in return, but it's similar, especially if you keep trying yet never get the specific thing you want.
     
  34. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    For the last time... this is a discussion, not my personal war. I stated multiple times that P2W mechanics are a form of gambling and that's the reasons why they should be banned or regulated. Please read with understanding. (@deem93 - thanks for the links)
    My personal reason to start this discussion is the "sickness" of mobile games market where most of the games are based on P2W mechanics. I would like to see more AAA quality mobile games without the P2W mechanics.

    It's existing becuse peaople don't have access to alternatives, it's existing becuse of big lobby and marketing campaigns. It's working because most of people simply follow the herd, if they see something is popular they do it even if they don't like it...

    Please one more time... read what peaople have to say in this topic, this is a discussion not my personal war.
     
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  35. NeonBits

    NeonBits Member

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    The difference is the items have instant value, in a mixed environment where entertainment is used to make profit, which is known as a risk as it glues a majority of people in an vicious circle and stops them from progressing; everyone knows it's not so positive when a person can accomplish alot. I've always believed they should make a console for PG and one for mature; if it's pointless, then the whole rating system is.
    I still dream of a world where people understand that they're already rich and make this whole rat laboratory a thing of the past.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  36. Roa

    Roa Member

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    You know, the biggest problem with mobile isn't the predatory gaming. Its the fact that not enough people are making wholesome games that fit the hardware. Every piece of software on my phone that I actually use are 1 time price, and opt in for other controls like controller mouse and keyboard. I treat it like a mini PC. I will literally carry around a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, or a ps4 controller with it and treat it like a desktop and gameboy.

    All software I make for it heavily relies on these inputs over high latency touch screen controls and ads//loot boxes, no contrived wait times. And I try to make more mainstream game designs vs quick hit games you get bored of in 10 minutes and put it back in your pocket.

    Full FPS experience with level editor and bots? Dark souls styled action RPGs? Nothing is stopping you other than your perception of the current market.

    Its a completely unfilled market waiting to be taken on. Break the mold vs following it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
  37. Pfap

    Pfap Member

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    Oh gosh, I remember being a kid... so excited to get a new game which I either saved up for or my parents bought me. Dad wasn't too impressed with "Superman 64" lol.
     
  38. Taddio

    Taddio Member

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    Well, my dad was the kind to buy me Rayman while he played Resident Evil and Duke Nukem while I slept (how happy a kid would Ive been if I were allowed to play NOT in secret, haahaaha!)
     
  39. Pfap

    Pfap Member

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    Lol, that's an awesome story! My dad wasn't much of a gamer; I actually can't even recall my first M rated game... that might actually make an interesting "off topic" posting: what was your first M rated game?

    I think mine may have been a castlevania on the ps2.
     
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  40. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    Apologies, your title of 'P2W should be banned!' (exclamation mark and all) made me believe otherwise.
     
  41. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    "Beliefs" are cause of the greatest evil the World has ever seen...
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
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  42. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    At the risk of being evil, I believe the correct term is 'beliefs'. ;)


    Ironic that NeonBits liked your post. He is a believer too.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2019
  43. NeonBits

    NeonBits Member

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    To "like" can mean something and nothing; even facebook got confused by its "thumbup" and its new emoticons don't do any better. I "liked" because it's a classic line. It depends how we read it, what comes from it. The line is true and false; depends of the situation; the word exception exists. As I've said; I'm not a supporter of "pay to win". But if the whole planet is going to accept it, I would prefer something "scam free" and in a logical concept than one single box.
     
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