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 Not attracted to GMS2 anymore

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Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
but if YYG were to use the industry standard of space bar + left-click drag, then there would be nothing for anyone to really learn since most would have been using this already in a variety of other software.
The issue is that in "laptop mode" (no mouse attached), many laptops have whats called palm protection, and disable the space bar while your using the trackpad (or trackpad while using space...cant remember). This is to stop accidental keypresses while typing. LOADS of laptops do this, several laptops in the office showed this pretty quickly so we had to choose another key that WAS active while using the trackpad - hence the current selection.

If however you have a mouse plugged in, then space can (as it's not locked out) in this industry standard way - throughout the program.
 

Hyomoto

Member
Dang @Mike, and here this whole time I assumed you guys just threw all this together randomly. You mean you had reasons for doing it this way? Mind = blown. On a serious note, it's always interesting to learn what went into these decisions. Sort of fun to peek behind the curtain.
 

Posh Indie

Member
I personally welcome the changes that are being made. Spend less time complaining about change and more time getting used to the changes and you would find they actually are capable of improving workflow. Fight the changes and keep trying to use it like it's 1.4 and... well... save yourself the time and effort. Stay with 1.4.

There are times to complain, but make sure you at least try to adapt first. If you are unwilling to adapt to change... technology is not a field you want to pursue.

My only current complaint? I want those exporters. Now. (Just playing, YoYo Games. Take your time, haha.)
 
AND, we go at it again... Instead of taking into account that a freakin' X deletes code and another one Saved the whole thing. Instead of taking into account that the WINDOWS version of GMS2 does NOT act as a Windows application is a SERIOUS problem.

It's not a get used to it thing. I'm a pure Windows user. I left MAC and can't stand Linux because of how they work so what do I do. I stick with Windows. I hate the X on the left in MAC and the global menu bar in Linux as well as the unfamiliar installtions without double clicks. (Again people will say " Well avidichard, as you say, you don't use MAC or linux, so don't bother us with GMS2, just stay with GMS1.". AND again, I'll say that this is not the point.

The point being made is that GMS1 worked like a charm in Windows (with some few irritants here an there). But GMS2 left all of what made GMS a Windows application dropping some serious issues with mouse interaction and the GUI. So YES these are not simple requests, these are issues that DO interfere for those using the drag'n drop style.

So please, people, if you are hardccore keyboard users and just LOVE the way GMS2 uses the keyboard well hey....GMS2 did a nice job for this, now, it's time to correct what has been neglected, the mouse interaction and logics in a Windows environement. I just don't know how people just try to give reason to moderators and YYG staff when there is clearly an issue with the IDE and GUI working with the mouse. Don't tell me you use the keyboard to do drag'n drop actions, that's just nonesense!
 

Lukan

Gay Wizard Freak
You say you have 10+ years of programming experience.... Why are you even using DnD?

I'm a heavily mouse based user, not a fan of keyboard shortcuts, and I use GML. I haven't had any issues wondering what was being saved and what wasn't.
It was all pretty clear and straight forward to me in the context things were presented.
 

JacPete

Member
i think its great, its a bit to shiny for my taste i (like it more classic and functional) but hadnt checked out if you are able to change the visual appereance. it helped me getting rid of an old dupicated entry that i almost forgot about. it has an great handling and nice build in elements. dont forget, this is just the beginning of something big and at the moment in beta stage.
 

Galladhan

Member
I just don't know how people just try to give reason to moderators and YYG staff when there is clearly an issue with the IDE and GUI working with the mouse.
This is your opinion, not a fact. I don't use many keyboard shortcuts, and still i love the new IDE.
 
OK Then, back to Windows basics: How to program user interfaces in Microsoft Windows

1. When closing a window, make sure user want's to close the window by saving or without saving any changes by asking user what to do (save, don't save or cancel). This will make sure user does not make any stupid mistake as YES, everyone is a stupid user, even I, the programmer.

2. When configuring a software to the taste of the user, make sure configurations are clearly identified and accissible. Unwritten rule of programming: Context menus are always a good start where user can right click on an area to reach that area's options (that's why we call it a contextual window).

3. Make sure that when using an icon to identify an action, DO NOT make it do another action elswhere in the same program.

4 . When a window can be maximised on a per-user request, make sur to let the user restore that same window in it's original state with a clear button to identify it. (Windows has 3 buttons ALWAYS located at the top right hand corner of any window. The minimize, Maximize and Close buttons (little note, the maximize buttons becoms a restore button when window is maximized).

5. It is always preferable to keep child windows inside the main application window to let the user know to which software this window belogs.

6. Never clog up an area with too many text and windows as users get lost easily and don't know where to look. Keep your working area clear and focused on what the user is doing.

7. When using keyboard shortcuts, make sure user knows. Tooltips over a particular button or in parentheses inside a menu are good practices.

8. Microsoft Windows has it's close window button top right of the application's window. For child maximizable windows, the 3 basic buttons (optional minimize button) should be under the main close,maximize/restore and minimize buttons of the main application's window (some call this an MDI form). The user know exactly where to look in case of those basic needs.

9. When using tabs, the middle mouse button is used to close that tab following the closing rules of a window of #1 in this list.

10. Tabs are maximized windows that normally cannot be restored as tabs are considered as workspaces. In the option of having movebale windows maximize as tabs, make sure user has a clear way to restore windows in it's original state via a context menu (right click). For additional methods to restore such tabs into their original floating window, these can be mentionned in a help file (example, simply moving the tab out of the tab area to restore it's original state).

11. In the occasion where closing a Window using the "X" saves, the rest of the application should follow the same rule. For special cases where closing discards changes, the standard "trash can" icon should be used or something clear that indicates to the user what is about to happen. When using such special icons, these should be placed on the left side of that area so user knows it is not a standard action.

12. When deleting anything using a button, always prompt the user with a window asking if he is sure to do this action. In the case where this action becomes redundant, a checkbox in that same message window stating "Do not ask again" can be present if the user prefers to not be harrassed anymore by the same message. In this case more cautious users will choose to keep the message while as advanced users will decide to ignore that message the rest of the time. The possibility to reverse this action should be available in the software main options.

13. Unless intentioned by paid softwares, ads and promotional slideshows should not be present in the application's loading screen. In the case of a paid customer, he should have the choice via a checkbox to show these ads or not in the futur. Again, an option to reverse this action should be present in the application's main options.

14. Treat your Graphical User Interface as if a total newb and stupid person would use it making options clear to what can be done. Remember, you as the programmer, have been working on this for weeks, months ans maybe years, you know your interface by heart and can almost use it your eyes shut. But every new user has a VERY strong chance of never seeing this type of interface before.

15. Make sure your application follows the guide lines of the interface in which it is meant to be executed. If it's a web page, links usually have a "hand" cursor for example. As a windows program, confirmation dialogues, context menus, menus, tabs, toolbars and close/min and max buttons should always be located and act the same way other standard Windows application does as the user is used to that way of working. Remember, your software if not the only thing he uses in his life, therefor, learning a completely new way of working with windows might back him off in using your application.

16. Although unwritten and baffled by many, any Windows application should keep the windows theme by default. This makes the user feel already used to you application with familiar colors and buttons. In the case your application is REALLY meant to have themes, make sure to not force a theme that will have to much faded colors (for example a too white or grey theme with grey or white icons and buttons). Make sure to not have a too colorful theme as the user won't know where to look at and won't be able to easily find himself in your application.

17. When using icons for buttons and toolbars, make sure the user clearly identifies what these buttons do. For example, a checkmark icon that identifies a delete action is not good. Make sure the user also has colors to well identify the buttons or a very clear image if you are using a metro style theme. For example, a white sheet for a new document and a yellow sheet to open one is not a good idea as the icon does not represent a completely different action. Do not use similar icons also to identify 2 different actions. Even though the actions make be closely related, you can play with colors if you are using colored icons but in the case of metro style icons, make sure that the difference is easily noticible.

18. Do not clog up many icons in one area. Even though you are using different colors, make sure to combine similar actions in a section clearly separated by a visible separator (A fainted line or simply a space bigger than the space in between your different buttons).
Now as for the DnD and my 10 yr experience in programming. When coding an object, you drag a code block in your event. That's called, unless I completely missed it, drag and drop. And when creating a room, to my understanding, you drag your oobjects on a layer using the mouse, to my understanding, this is also called drag and drop.

As to what GMS2 interferes with Windows functionalities, I'll simply name the numbers above that GMS2 did not respect everywhere: 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,17,18.

As for #13, I cannot say anythingas this is the BETA and I did not pay for the Desktop version so I cannot comment on this but in GMS1, you had the option to never show the news on startup if you wished.
 

Lukan

Gay Wizard Freak
If you open your project in, if I am saying this right, GML mode, then you don't have to deal with DnD at all.
And no, you don't have to drag things onto the layers in the room editor, that's an option yes, but not the only way of adding instances.

Just because you think you're right, doesn't make it so. I've used every version of Windows since 3.1, and GMS2 works just like a Windows program. You know why? Because it's a program that runs on Windows. There is no basic functionality that makes it such, sure there are ways other programs work that are common, but they aren't a requirement for "Windows programs".
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator

Juju

Member
Where in those guidelines does it lay out recommended behaviours for tabs, or drag-and-drop interfaces, or window chaining? Making GMS2 "more Windows" to a pattern so rigid and dated is not proactively identifying and solving issues, and it's a regressive path to follow.

That there is no confirmation dialogue for closing a window in GMS2 is a fine point. That is going to catch out a lot of people. I think dealing with that behaviour can be learnt but I do question whether it should be learnt.

However, and I'm speaking as much about other threads as much as this one, the central point of discussion is buried underneath a great deal of needless posturing. That is why threads are continually getting sidetracked into splitting hairs and bickering over choice of language. Walking on eggshells is no fun; perhaps we should stop chucking eggs at each other.
 

SnoutUp

Member
At first I was excited to see object window screenshots, because most of my issues with GMS2 is related to that, but OP self-destructed the thread by writing like a teenager during breakup ("GMS2 is dead for me").

And what's up with people rushing to cover up all usability issues with "But there's a keyboard shortcut, which almost does something similar"...
 
I agree about all the horizontal panning back and forth. Why does it move the first two chains off screen for editing the third, but when you close the third chain it doesn't put the first two back on screen? It makes closing an object take way more time. I wish the third chain was just an open window over the object instead.

The D&D editing widow also constantly pans every time you add something. The action properties should be left aligned between the drag columns, not center aligned, to maximize available horizontal space. Only pan if an action is outside the two drag columns or below or above the window.
 
1. When closing a window, make sure user want's to close the window by saving or without saving any changes by asking user what to do (save, don't save or cancel). This will make sure user does not make any stupid mistake as YES, everyone is a stupid user, even I, the programmer.
When you close a window, it's normally destructive (i.e. you are losing information). For example, if I have Word open with a typed doc and I hit the X, then I am closing the window and I damn well want Word to ask me if I mean it because if it was an accident, then I lose all that info. When it comes to destructive actions, GMS2 does this. If you click the X to actually close GMS2, then you get a common Windows dialog asking if you actually meant to close GMS2 giving you an option to accept or cancel. But when you close an object or sprite or sound ... this does not happen ... you are not given a chance to cancel. But that's fine. You've lost NOTHING. All you have to do is double-click the item in the resource tree and your chained windows are BACK!

So, right from the get go, starting with #1 on your list, GMS2 does, indeed, function like a Windows program. Windows asks if you really meant to exit the program in order to allow you an option to save any unsaved work/info. But with the windows in the work space, nothing is lost when they are closed. So why bother? If you didn't mean to close it, just re-open it.

Frankly, I don't want to have to click to accept closing one of these windows each time I go to close one. That would be a pain in the you-know-what.

2. When configuring a software to the taste of the user, make sure configurations are clearly identified and accissible. Unwritten rule of programming: Context menus are always a good start where user can right click on an area to reach that area's options (that's why we call it a contextual window).
Accissible? Really? I am to take this list seriously?

In any case, I just right-clicked on an code window for an object. Guess what? I got an context window, just like I'd expect, offering me options I can use there. I clicked on an Event window. Guess what I got? A different context window suited to that window. Yeah ... this is missing from GMS2 ... not.

3. Make sure that when using an icon to identify an action, DO NOT make it do another action elswhere in the same program.
I've not yet had an issue with seeing an icon used in multiple ways in GMS2, but I could well be wrong as I am still using the software. But so far its seemed consistent.

I'll stop here. No need to go on with this list. The point here is that you were trying to state that GMS2 somehow violates these "rules" of Windows ... and even "interferes" with Windows somehow. But GMS2 seems to work as you would expect in a Windows environment and do so quite well ... and as expected (for the most part). But it does not. Even the rules you listed don't seem to negate the creators from coming up with new ways to do things. I didn't read them all, but do they address chained windows in your list? Are chained windows a violation of Windows coding that somehow interferes with Windows itself? If so, then dozens of professional Windows programs that use a chained schematic view are guilty of this!

The point being, GMS2 is a Windows program (duh!) that functions well within a Windows environment and (mostly) behaves as one would expect. I do believe that are a few minor exceptions. But instead of claiming that GMS2 blatantly violates bazillions of Windows unspoken rules, why not simply start a thread for each instance where you think GMS2 does not behave as you think it should? Or report them to YYG via their bug reporting mechanism?
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Okay, I think this topic has rambled on long enough... It's early days yet and YYG won't be changing major parts of the program because a couple of people are vocally against it. GMS2 has built in surveys where people can make their feelings known too, and I've also seen a lot of positive feedback about the features being condemned here. That doesn't mean nothing will change, but it does mean that any changes being made will be carefully considered and weighed up before being implimented, so expect gradual improvements rather than sweeping changes.
 
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