OFFICIAL New, More Affordable Pricing For Sharing and Publishing Games

rIKmAN

Member
I don't know if I understood this portion properly. But usually, in the past at least, permanent licenses were to be repaid for MAJOR version changes, hence, v1 to v2 and not for in between minor or revisions.
Correct, I never said otherwise.

I was specifically replying to the suggestion made by Mushroomstick (you can see my whole reply is @ to them) where they suggested they would like modified permanent licences to cover smaller update ranges like between 2.3 - 2.3.9.
 

gnysek

Member
So users would be on up-to-date version of GMS, and learn to use new features or changes as they come to be.
Generally this is why subscriptions were made for. For those who are 25+ years old, they for sure remember, that most of paid apps have bigger release every 1-2 years (eg. Photoshop, Corel, Office, Sony Vegas, Partition Manager, Delphi, etc.). And of course except of most professional users, others paid for one version, and didn't updated for decades, even if there were interesting updates, because as long they were on same OS, and those apps were working, they were enough for them, and paying again for same software with one or two additional features was too expensive. In fact for companies some software and hardware is also expensive, that's why they... lease things. But why would companies lease things, and pay loan interest, while companies can do it on their side, without that cut-off for banks, and instead of releasing one big update every 1-2 years, have more continuous cycle, and customers can get new features and bug fixes more often? Of course, in long-term for non-professional users subscripts are more expensive, but only if we assume, that someone was buying some software and using it for 5-10 years without update.
That was of course possible with GameMaker (some are still using GM8.1 or GMS1.4), but this is true only for Windows exporter. If you use HTML5/Android/iOS/MacOS, then APIs for stores and software changes at least once per year, which means that even with perpetual licenses, those became outdated in short perspective - and GMS need continuous updates. It's not that GMS changes, it adapts to other software around.

IMHO, there's only one case in which subscription is more expensive - if one used Windows exporter only, and was making executable at least once per month (so at least 12 game exports per year). That's when subscription is more expensive than perpetual with no doubt. For all other cases - it's comparable, same, or cheaper. I will get into my forties before my subscription from current licenses runs out (having 34 now), so I won't tell a bad word about that model (and I'm spending monthly at least 40-50$ on different subscriptions on other applications and stream services). In fact, even internet, phone and some local bills are kind of subscription, as for me they are always same every month :p And that's why I can understand this whole change is a problem for students, or for those who doesn't started their first job yet.
 

mikix

Member
I think people are afraid of playing a role in an Empire where the Emperor rules and all the others kneel before him. Like what are we? Are we living in the slums in this Empire? I mean, even desktop will be a subscription model. So what do we gain from this subscription model? Just to make the Emperors castle better, but for what?

Okay, so one decides to only release for desktop. He doesn't expect much money in return, might even have a blackout for two months. So how does he really impress his audience if he doesn't update his software for 1 year? How does the income compare to the subscription he has to pay?

From my point of view there are no professional AAA studios using GMS so they can't milk out of them. They have to sort of play the emperor role here. And if they wrap around the anklet on their old users that made them what they are today, I am afraid that many will just move on to Java, Python or any other scripting language depending on how far they have gotten with their main project. I have seen many Java games, and I am truly impressed by it. But I have come a long way with my project that I am not going to make the switch.
 

gnysek

Member
So how does he really impress his audience if he doesn't update his software for 1 year?
Price of Desktop license was 99$, price of 1-year subscription depending on country is around 99$ - and it's needed only if you need non-OperaGX exporter no less often than 30 days :p And this applies only for those who SINCE 2017 DIDN'T BOUGHT ANY GMS2 license as otherwise they don't need to pay for anything (and even got some exporters for limited time for free). So this might be vaid either for new users, or for those... for which even old model was too expensive, as they didn't bought GMS2 yet.
Hint: it's possible to make 20 game updates for 20 months paying only 100$ if updates are made on 1st and 30th of one even month, and skipping subscription for every odd month. $80 saved!

I see no sense in talking about edge case where someone could need to export .exe every few days during following 12 months, to came into conclusion, that on 13 month this person gonna pay 10 bucks more (if game didn't earned 110$ after release, supporting it was waste of time, or eccentricity). We can exclude new users from it (they should to first learn and try GMS instead making executables from first day), and we can exclude those that are 1.4 users, as they had 4 years to switch (so either they're happy with 1.4 and can still make .exe there, or were happy with 2.x limitations which are now taken off).

If someone claim that prices increased, it's not because YYG increased them, it's because of how one want to force itself to pay for more (or more often) that one needs. This model learns how to not overestimate own skills too early, so it's a good lesson too.

I'm sure that new GX export (which will be WASM export, so it's possible it will work on Chrome/Edge/Firefox too, if they don't put some special code there), will be 100x better than pure HTML5, and will be enough to start working on games, and then deciding who and when really needs other exporters, and how often, will be easier . All depends on quality of this exporter now.
 

drandula

Member
So what do we gain from this subscription model? Just to make the Emperors castle better, but for what?
Well if we only get necessary/bare minimum updates, then yes it could be that; just profit for the company.
But currently I see there is real work being done to development GMS2 further, which benefits us. Without further development, the program becames stagnant and eventually outdated compared to alternatives.

From my gut feeling it is risky to do research and development in large scale with single-purchase model. Single-purchase model isn't sustainable model for R&D, because available new users can became saturated - you have to spend time(expense) to get new buyers, but you can also "run out" of them. This is from inherit nature of permanent license, whenever one buys license, they will never need to buy another same license. To get constant revenue to cover expenses while doing R&D, you need get new one users on higher basis than what is needed to just for maintenance updates. There are no incentives to try maintain old user base, as they don't bring you revenue anymore.

So subscription model brings more secure revenue stream, which can be taken account while planning future and how much they can do R&D.
On subscription company still wants new users, but there is now also incentive to try keep old users. For example developing product further, participating to community etc. but there do also exists bad business practices for this.

My main point was; with subscription model company doesn't need to focus as much for gaining new users (marketing), but can instead channel expenses for maintaining the user-base (which R&D can be part of).
Though it isn't this straight-forward. YYG let people keep their old permanent licenses and gave free months for subscription, so they can try out other licenses etc.
 
Correct, I never said otherwise.

I was specifically replying to the suggestion made by Mushroomstick (you can see my whole reply is @ to them) where they suggested they would like modified permanent licences to cover smaller update ranges like between 2.3 - 2.3.9.
I suggested that as what I would view as a reasonable alternative to eliminating new permanent licenses entirely going forward that could co-exist with the subscription model.

Side note: I fully understand that my existing permanent license remains a permanent license and isn't going anywhere - I just don't have an "I've got mine, you get yours!" kind of view on this.

IMHO, there's only one case in which subscription is more expensive - if one used Windows exporter only, and was making executable at least once per month (so at least 12 game exports per year). That's when subscription is more expensive than perpetual with no doubt.
I think a lot more of us may fit into that use case than you realize. I suspect that we wont really see where the majority of the user base stands on that until development/support for GMS2 ends at some point down the road (which I have come to suspect may be a while since the PS5 and Series X exports released recently which presumably puts YYG on the hook for at least a few years of support for the most influential portion of the user base).

I see a few people saying that everyone would benefit from a sub because YYG can trickle out new features on a more regular basis instead of saving several of them up for larger feature dumps less often. That actually does not sound good to me. If I'm working on a larger scale project, I need to commit to a feature set/overall design/etc. relatively early on in development. I can't always be refactoring projects every couple of weeks to take advantage of minor feature updates that are gradually trickling out. Any features that release while I'm already in the middle of a project generally aren't going to get a serious look from me until the current project is complete. As such, I prefer fewer, larger feature updates like when GMS2.3 released.
 

rIKmAN

Member
I suggested that as what I would view as a reasonable alternative to eliminating new permanent licenses entirely going forward that could co-exist with the subscription model.

Side note: I fully understand that my existing permanent license remains a permanent license and isn't going anywhere - I just don't have an "I've got mine, you get yours!" kind of view on this.
Yep totally understand what you were saying, I just clarified in case you weren't aware as there seems to have been a fair bit of confusion from people about permenent licences being converted.
 

gnysek

Member
I can't always be refactoring projects every couple of weeks to take advantage of minor feature updates that are gradually trickling out. Any features that release while I'm already in the middle of a project generally aren't going to get a serious look from me until the current project is complete. As such, I prefer fewer, larger feature updates like when GMS2.3 released.
That's true. However, that's true for GMS features, while if you're working on project for year or two, it's highly possible, that Apple and Google would release new iOS and new Android, and sadly they always require to update runners (and sometimes even IDE, as some new parameter/option might be required, like new size of icons), and even on Windows 10 there was this "Scheduler" update (which added scheduler_resolution_set()), so games made in GMS 2.0 could work slower. But on current roadmap I see no such features, that would give big opportunity to refactor game, and for most of those features using pure GML as now might be still a better choice (a change for bigger refactor would be adding translations to runner, or adding better data structures which are garbage collected). So generally updates sometimes may tempt us to update projects, but sometimes are required by 3rd parties.

Other competitive editors are getting updates much more often, but as YYG got some serious bugs in last stable releases, I hope they gonna add some indicator about separate optional beta releases to stable IDE too, so more people will test it before actual release, as that's stopping or even breaking our projects much more, than taking advantage of new features. There are users which are not aware about beta, as they aren't checking this community every day, so addition like this would be great, and that would help to keeps us from installing, breaking projects, and rollbacking - so more often updates would have more sense.
 
This change is geared towards professional users, not hobbyists.

That's the bottom line.
It looks like there's going to be changes to the free license to help with that, but it seems like GMS is going to be treated as primarily a professional tool from here on out. Instead of trying to please all parties. Which is fair, I suppose.
It's also fair that people will fall away from GMS because of that.
It's sad what you are saying, but I feel that it's that way too. Basically, People who still have install files for GMS1.4 and GM prior to GMS will probably create their games in those apps instead. At least, that's what I will do. The learning curve from GMS1.4 to 2 is already steep seeing all the changes in GUI design, tile manipulation and a huge change in 3D functions. I am not saying that what GMS2 did is bad, just stating that the changes are very different. It's not just additions to a comfortable GUI or updating functions, it rewriting some of them completely.

As for the roadmap - Yes, that's what I'm saying that what they plan has no particular interests for me. What I'm looking for is upgrading or enhancing present features. For example, permit the emition of particles from irregular shaped objects or shapes. Simplify the 3D engine even more not necessarely improve the engine, but simplify the functions so that we don't have to write 15 lines of code with super long lines of countless function parameters just to position a camera in the 3D space. Add hidden surface detections where the draw functions are not called when objects or draw surfaces are hidden from the camera. As for 2D, we mostly have everything we need and more. But adding a simplified RPG system for inventory instead of more complexe data tables. Provide functionality for the ability to add packs to our game, addons and such that we can sell, permit GMS to be able to create addons for our games without the need of creating an entire game project. There's many ideas that can be improved and done before even thinking about online connectivity and subscription models and whatever they have in their roadmap.
 

gnysek

Member
Yep, ideally roadmap for every update should contain:
- new feature in IDE
- new feature in runtime (new functions)
- optimization or extension of existing feature (for example: paths could get support of beziers same as curves, motion planning could get some updates as we have structs and lambdas now so both potential step or grids could get improvements and enhancements, fonts could get extension to support sprite fonts directly in IDE not only by runtime function, sprites could get attach points, etc., etc.)
- new optimization of runtime so games can run faster if new feature is properly used (even if that would require to adapt game and won't work out of box)

That would be of course great. I'm little disappointed that roadmap is mostly set by YYG, and while some features are close to what people ask here and there, would be great if they could make some poll for those who have active subscription and we can vote for one feature per half year, which is proposed by community, and this way we could introduce totally new features, or skip the line for those that are already planned. Would be good to meet somewhere in middle between what they want to add in which order, and what community needs.
 

drandula

Member
Uh, I remember that I had more months available couple days ago 🤔
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Was there time limit when you get to use these free months?
Edit. I think there was before miscalculation and this now is correct 👍
 
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kburkhart84

Firehammer Games
The "extra" months were going to disappear 1 by one until January 1st. You probably noticed they gave a specific amount of free months per license, but then you actually had a few more than that. Those are the "extra" that I'm talking about. I don't remember the exact numbers, but that's the deal.
 

mcdreamer

Member
I'm a bit late to the party here. I've been pondering this change and what it means for how I develop my games in the future. Before I started using GMS2 a couple of years back I spent a long time looking for "the perfect engine", concluding the off the shelf options were all flawed in some way, and then writing a couple of engines of my own. The process of making games turned into the process of making engines. In the end I realised this was counter productive and after evaluation decided that GMS2 was my best bet.

Almost immediately I was making a lot more progress than I had for years. GMS is not perfect but having almost everything in a single environment is a huge boost. On top of that, I could target iOS, macOS and Windows without needing to spend any time going out of my way to ensure that my iOS/macOS code worked on Windows. The scripting language was basic but functional. It's of course since been greatly improved.

The switch to the new pricing model has made me step back and re-evaluate GMS again. Whilst it provided all the benefits I mentioned above, this was a big reminder of the other element which drew me to writing my own engine - control. Suddenly I find myself building on top of my previous engine code rather than writing games. I'm doing this despite knowing that really it's counter productive to the process of actually making games, at least in the short term.

Game development for me is very much a hobby. It's something I pick up for a few months and then put down again for a year, after which the cycle repeats. To echo a point which has already been made a huge number of times above, this is precisely why perpetual licenses are so attractive to hobbyist users. I understand the need to create a sustainable development budget for software - I'm a professional developer myself (not in the world of games), but it is slightly at odds of part of the customer base.

All of this really leaves me in a difficult spot. I have a few options. Switch over to the subscription, knowing that this is more expensive (if manageable). Write my own engine - though I find this kind of project in my spare time less appealing as I get (even) older. Switch to an alternative like Unity and look past all the reasons why I have never chosen to use it before. Or, give up on the idea I will one day again release my own games and move on. It's been 8 years since I last did after all. I'm not really looking for any answers. Really I am just posting here to organise my own thoughts.

As a final reflection, one thing that always surprises me is the sorry state of game development technologies in general (especially at the hobbyist level). Perhaps I am just never going to be satisfied with anything, but on the one hand you have tools like Unity which force you to use their bloated editors and C#, on the other you have promising looking lower level libraries which require a lot of additional development work on top to get anything going. GMS2 did represent, and probably still does, the best compromise I could find. These changes to its pricing just tip the scales in the wrong direction.
 

Director_X

Member
Hi. I have 3 licences (Desktop, Mobile, and UWP), and AFAIK I am able to "enable" or request a Steam export key for one of them.

Do I still get that option (as I never got around to requesting one)?

I appreciate the new subscription pricing - I just hope it wont be hiked up every year.

Thanks.
 
Hi. I have 3 licences (Desktop, Mobile, and UWP), and AFAIK I am able to "enable" or request a Steam export key for one of them.

Do I still get that option (as I never got around to requesting one)?
I think linking your Steam account to your YYG account will mirror all your GameMaker licenses between the two accounts.
 

Director_X

Member
Yeah it does - once linked you can use standalone or Steam and all your exports will be available in both versions.
And I can link via the YoYo account?
And I have CHOICE to render to both standalone, or Steam (ie I am not locked into a "Steam" version thereafter)?

Thanks.
 

rIKmAN

Member
And I can link via the YoYo account?
And I have CHOICE to render to both standalone, or Steam (ie I am not locked into a "Steam" version thereafter)?

Thanks.
Correct, just login to your account on the YYG site and link your Steam account and then you can use either version.
 
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