Just realized that GameMaker is owned by a gambling company

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Just a game programmer, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. Andy

    Andy Member

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    I do have to thank Playtech for helping GameMaker grow.
    So, ignoring the whole morality debate – I'm curious about how this works.
    If Playtech suddenly closed down for whatever reason, would YoYo Games still be able to exist? Could YoYo Games take GameMaker and find a new buyer, or just continue independently?
     
  2. dawidM

    dawidM Member

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    At this point, I can't imagine that Gamemaker just stops working... Too many people use it and even make a living from that. I think that in the worst case scenario if Yoyo can't find any financial support, they will make GM Studio open source. It is only my opinion, I wonder what others think about it :)
     
  3. Jabbers

    Jabbers Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this an issue for the console exports only? I thought the concern was that the entire engine would become subscription based, not that future modules would be priced differently. That said, the "creator" package does look like a sneaky move to normalize subscription licenses.
     
  4. nacho_chicken

    nacho_chicken Member

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    I just now noticed that the title of the topic contains an incorrect statement. GameMaker is not owned by a gambling company. GameMaker is owned by a company that is owned by a gambling company.
     
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  5. Roa

    Roa Member

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    you know there are companies out there, where all they do is buy other companies as subsidiaries or act as a front end for a corporate conglomerate, right? Just look at google and YouTube and such. They are "owned and operated" out of a parent company called alphabet.

    I'm pretty sure if playtech ever magically went down, yoyo would just find another buyer.
     
    Andy likes this.
  6. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    That depends on the purchase agreement.

    When a small company is purchased by a larger company, that small company forfeits its right of ownership. The small company may retain some control over their own management, buy they don't retain control of their ownership. So they can't "find another buyer", unless their corporate owner decides to sell them.

    The exception is when companies form partnerships rather than being purchased outright. So they may be able to end that partnership, under a prior agreement.

    But I agree it's not worth worrying about. Valuable corporate assets (like smaller subsidiaries) are usually purchased by other corporate buyers if the parent company falls on hard times. Or if the parent company just decides they can sell the subsidiary for a profit.

    Either way, Playtech wouldn't have purchased YoYoGames if they didn't see a future for its product.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  7. Roa

    Roa Member

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    I said that with the assumption they would sell/liquidate assets/subsidiaries if they went belly up, freeing yoyo. In a lot of cases, companies are required by law to do this before filing any bankruptcy or anything.
     
    chance likes this.
  8. Lonewolff

    Lonewolff Member

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    More than likely. But, also gives them a tactical advantage on faster turn around for software for their gaming machines. By owning the software, the can change the EULA to allow gambling software to be created by GameMaker. (Which from memory, is no longer states that you can't use GM for gambling applications)

    Nothing against Playtech here at all, they are a business. They cater to a market. I've never been one to use gambling machines myself and don't have a real issue with them.
     
  9. EvanSki

    EvanSki King of Raccoons

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    My viewpoint is why does it matter?

    Yoyo games handles game maker and are doing...a well job in my opinion,

    Until playtech openly changes stuff about yoyo the community doesnt like

    I see no big issue with them simply being owned by a gambling company
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Playtech doesn't use GMS, I think... Part of Mike's retrospective blog post after he left YYG expressed disappointment that Playtech wasn't using GMS internally.

    I thought that was a real bummer... I believe King uses Defold for their games.
     
  11. roytheshort

    roytheshort The Village Idiot

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    For more info on Yoyogames, their accounts are available on Companies House. Heck, I even found the purchase price Playtech paid in their Financials too. (EUR 1,808,000 to be precise)

    upload_2019-7-7_16-25-22.png

    Link here, select Accounts

    There's a significant amount of Goodwill here, because the total Equity is only about £1,058,337. (Note different base currencies) They intentionally overpaid, I suspect due to future expected performance.

    upload_2019-7-7_16-27-10.png

    And for the actual profit figures...

    upload_2019-7-7_16-28-56.png

    Bear in mind a significant amount of this is employee expenses and a Share Based Payment Scheme. (see below) I'm not sure about the large increase in admin, may be related to the restructuring, I'd have to look in more depth. But yeah, loss making during the current year.

    upload_2019-7-7_16-30-58.png

    This means the average employee at Yoyo is paid £63k per annum, not too shabby. Bear in mind employee salary spreads are much different to this.

    Anyway that's just my input on Yoyogames financial performance and who it's owned by how much it's making etc. Publicly available accounts for the 2018 fy will be around before on or before September as per legal requirement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  12. SilentxxBunny

    SilentxxBunny Epsilon

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    I've got two words for you, Nocturne: Daily Spin.

    I cannot emphasis strongly enough how much ppl ♥ getting a "daily spin."
     
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  13. Toque

    Toque Member

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    You could ask for a refund and not use the project. That’s pretty much your only option I can think of.
     
  14. debleb

    debleb Member

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    i mean, loot boxes in games are basically gambling for children but a development platform being owned by a gambling company is what we're complaining about here..
     
  15. Toque

    Toque Member

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    If people have problems with the gambling they will have to use another software.

    I guess research who owns the other platforms and choose a company you feel comfortable with supporting.
     
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  16. nacho_chicken

    nacho_chicken Member

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    Correction, a development platform being owned by a company that is owned by a gambling company. One step removed.

    Sony supports sports gambling on their golf courses.
    Microsoft has helped out gambling companies and provided them with hardware and software.
    Nintendo and most other companies (Valve, Epic, EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc.) publish or develop games that feature lootboxes and similar predatory mechanics that are already considered gambling in at least one country and are currently under investigation in many others.

    Publishing your game nearly anywhere requires giving one of the above companies your money. These are companies that are either directly engaged in supporting gambling or their parent companies are engaged in supporting gambling. I fail to see how this any different from purchasing GameMaker.
     
  17. debleb

    debleb Member

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    Yeah, exactly. Hell, Nintendo, one of the cleanest, most family friendly video game publishers used to make cards that were typically used in underground gambling. No matter where you're looking to get published, where you're developing, you're GOING to end up supporting a company related to gambling. So we may as well just forget about it and use the stuff anyway.
     
  18. sitebender

    sitebender Member

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    Is it really gambling when TF2 lootboxes were glitched over the weekend when the super rare 1% prizes were given out 100% of the time? I still remember a gambling site back in college that was glitched so I was unbeatable. Always. Not even an exploit, no matter what, I was always given a full house at the start. The site never fixed its glitch, instead it went from guaranteed money to raffles. You had to invest your earnings into raffles. I know these things can be officially supervised, but well, poor or shady programming can prevent random.
     
  19. debleb

    debleb Member

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    Yes. It is. Glitches are glitches, NOT features. If it's intended so that ya put two bucks in and have a chance to get something better, it's gambling.
     
  20. Rayek

    Rayek Member

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    Twice I was offered a job by a gambling company, and in both cases I declined. And with that a boatload of earnings. My moral compass told me to steer away. That is not saying someone else taking those jobs is a-moral. Of course not. It is for you on a personal level to decide whether you feel comfortable working for a gambling company or any other company of which you know it is causing harm to your fellow human beings or the Earth in some manner.

    As a side-thought, who knows what good is done by people working for YoYo games? Does it equate the harm done by the parent company? How many children have found joy in playing a GM-built game? I have used GM for company serious games to prevent potential injuries. How many injuries have been prevented by that?

    Nothing is ever black and white.

    The very act of living is to cause pain and suffering unto others and ourselves by extension. We should strive to minimize the damage of our existence's footprint, and strike a balance between the destruction and creation our lives yield; which is what an ecosystem strives to achieve. Too bad the majority of humans haven't learned that lesson as of yet.

    As for game dev software: I suppose the most 'ethical' approach, if you feel burdened by GameMaker's ownership, is to opt out of any for-profit commercial software, and switch to the open source 'G' alternative. That, or stop working in game development ;-)
     
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  21. Old School Ben

    Old School Ben Member

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    I don't have a problem with it. GM is a fantastic program. I don't agree with everything Microsoft does as a huge company but that isn't going to stop me from using Windows as my operating system.
     

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