Discussion Is information and function the essentials of beauty?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Misty, Jul 17, 2016.

Tags:
  1. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    What is beauty? Some say symmetry but I'd say kopaka from bionicle is asymetrical and beautiful, or a cyborg woman with a targeting computer is beautiful, or twilight sparkle with an eyepatch and solid snake outfit is beautiful.


    I say that information and function=beauty.
    Why do we like flowers? They contain data, color data, and their function is to lure birds and bees with that color data. Same with their scent, which most consider beautiful.
    But food is deemed more beautiful a taste than flowers, because eating flowers usually has no function and so we grew to enjoy the taste of food more.

    Apply this to FPS games. Do we like looking at games with fullbright graphics? No, they have no function either - - you can't tell your spatial orientation very easily. Do we like games with incorrect looking lighting? No - they are confusing=less functionality. Do we like sloppy, cluttered levels with no direction? No - why because they have less function, harder to navigate. We like maps with decals and color coded textures - more data, more function.
    We do not like cod maps. Why? As a level, it is approaching white noise. Systems approaching white noise have more "data" according to the data, but in Reality the more a system approaches white noise, the more it loses its structures and actually loses data. So simply adding more "stuff" to you level does not make it more beautiful, because adding more "stuff" can actually make it lose information.
     
    Cantavanda and Galladhan like this.
  2. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    Depends. Id say COD is not photo real at all.

    But a camera only captures what it is exposed to, GIGO. If you base a photo off garbage, or a map off garbage, the more photo real it looks, the more it looks like garbage.

    Also be aware of uncanny valley. Some games are too realistic but slightly off somehow. Uncanny valley is not an exact science and does not apply at all times, for instance uncanny valley can sometimes look appealing, some drag queens and robots are attractive.

    But the fact is a lot of these photoreal games lack any art direction, their main gimmick is the polycount and so they have no otus to compensate for low polyness by using deeper artwork like the old games.

    Background music while thinking about this:
     
    Galladhan likes this.
  3. Galladhan

    Galladhan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    Posts:
    119
    Totally agree. Picasso's characters too.
    What do you mean exactly with "white noise"? I'm curious and fascinated.

    Absolutely yes! Shigeru Miyamoto once said something like: "Your game is not completed when you don't have anything more to add. It's completed when you don't have anything more to take away". Or something like this (couldn't find the exact quote, guess it was said during a "Iwata Asks" roundtable). Someone says that Miyamoto's game design is "by subtraction", and i think that the definition fits well.
     
  4. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    White noise is white noise. White noise entails the loss of patterns and structures due to the information in it being at an unmanageable scale. In rare cases you get Abe Lincoln, but most cases you just get white noise.

    Interesting, some say reality is subtractive as well.

    Example of uncanny valley in action:
    [​IMG]

    Some times its better just to create your own reality, rather than mimick the impossibly complex.
     
    Cantavanda and Galladhan like this.
  5. Galladhan

    Galladhan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    Posts:
    119
    I had never thought of white noise in these terms. That's interesting, thank you =)

    LOL!
     
    Misty likes this.
  6. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    That is the erroneous Wikipedia definition and a bad example.

    That robot isn't disturbing to look at.
    However the graphics I posted are very much an eyesore, it would be better had they just went a stylized approach rather than approaching reality. Probably this is due to activating memories of Reality and furthering the gap between actuated and attempted.
     
    Cantavanda likes this.
  7. JML

    JML Wabbajackalope

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    349
    -
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  8. GVmG

    GVmG Raechel

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Posts:
    145
    Please tell me you're joking, that thing is terrifying.
     
  9. Law

    Law Guest

    My brother plays COD quite a bit, the maps are shockingly well-designed. It's quite impressive actually, how there can be so much going on, yet it is still very clear to the player the function of all of the elements, which directions you can walk in, where unlockable doors are etc. I especially like the battle map around the modern house, I can't remember the name, very bright and colorful without seeming unrealistic, well signposted, small but dense.

    Not all beautiful things are well-designed, but I find good design beautiful, and COD is well-designed.
     
  10. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    Ew.

    If we can't see dark matter, we can't perceive it as beautiful. It is neutral. Logic.


    If an animal is colorblind, flowers look less beautiful to them, because flowers have less data and function.

    Keep trying JML.
     
    Cantavanda likes this.
  11. Roa

    Roa Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Posts:
    560
    I dont think there is anything essential to beauty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's more about what pleasures and emotions it invokes in someone. In graphics, different styles represent different tones.

    When things get "realistic", people relate to it more and tend to get draw into the world better. They can see things like the character would, almost like they could share the world, and things like higher detail models and animation are essential to this draw. People are really good at picking up on things like motion and body language. Things like complex facial emotion and even subtle movements and details are able to add emphasis to tone and people enjoy connecting with that. Things like halo 4's ending become a lot more investing because you can see the feelings of the people int he way they walk and move their face, and they don't even have to say much. People are more likely to build and take in a serious tone with realistic graphics connecting them to the world, where as something like world of war craft, you can learn to like the characters and the silly world, but you're never brought fully into it at any point.

    I think people are just burning out on "realism" because triple A focuses so heavily on cinematics vs mechanics and content now days. They always try to dazzle with presentation over interaction.
     
  12. Law

    Law Guest

    There's actually a lot of philosophy to do with beauty, I wish I knew more about it, because it would be interesting to know if Misty's views on beauty line up with any ancient philosophers. Any (actual) philosophers on the fora?
     
  13. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Posts:
    795
    Well said. I agree. Beauty isn't an attribute of an object. Beautiful things, or beautiful experiences, don't necessarily share common properties.

    What beautiful things have in common, are the feelings they evoke in us.
     
  14. Cantavanda

    Cantavanda 〜Flower Prince〜

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2016
    Posts:
    70
    The most beautiful thing in the world to me (that has nothing to do with religion) is a beautiful woman to me. What can make a woman like that even more beautiful are more memories with that person, and a good personality, which you can't see. That means that the beauty that you see can be determined by knowledge about what you're seeing. Because even if there is a beautiful elegant-looking woman, but I know she ****s a lot of guys, and doesn't care about the feelings of others, I will feel disgust when I see her face, but if that exact same woman talks in a warm loving tone, takes care of people, never says dumb or rude things, etc, I will completely melt when I see her face.

    So to answer the topic title, information does determine a lot about what you find beautiful.
     
  15. roytheshort

    roytheshort The Village Idiot

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Posts:
    72
    What's wrong with beautiful men?
     
  16. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2016
    Posts:
    6,901
    Beauty is that which one finds beautiful. To try to define it further can only destroy that beauty in abstractions and subjective opinion. Like love... try to analyse it and you lose it...
     
    MikeDark_x and Galladhan like this.
  17. Cantavanda

    Cantavanda 〜Flower Prince〜

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2016
    Posts:
    70
    I don't really agree with that... I think, if you analyse love correctly, you can learn more about your feelings, and the origins of your feelings, and differentiate different kinds of love, to eventually be able to be more loving. What is "real love"? What's the difference between attraction love and romance love? How can I feel non romantic love towards every person around me? Asking these kinds of questions will give you the ability to understand all of those feelings better, and the differences between them. I think it only makes you feel love more, and makes love stronger.

    The same with beauty, analysing why you find something beautiful doesn't make you find it less beautiful, or that's at least how I experience it. An example is the great baroque paintings. In that era, people really anaylised in depth what is beautiful, what every human finds biologically beautiful, like for example diagonal compositions and structures, or extreme color opposites, called "clair-obscur" in that time, and by analysing what IS beautiful, biologically by almost all humans, they were able to create so much more beautiful paintings then ever.


    omg... i disagreed with nocturne, time to get banned!
     
  18. Galladhan

    Galladhan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    Posts:
    119
    I agree with Nocturne on the fact that beauty has something in common with love. They both are "a point of view", in my opinion.
     
  19. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    Yes, me.

    I'd say they are more of a case of averages and demographics.
    For example, most people who play Call of Duty feel sick to their stomach and get a migraine within 15 minutes, so we can safely say COD is not beautiful.

    It's not just that, but as the realism grows, so does the complexity and uncanny valley, more possible to get things wrong when everyone can see the little details and nuances. Uncanny valley grows. Sometimes it's better to stick with cartoony graphics with no animated lips like n64, than to attempt photo realism because it just ends up looking off because there's so many more nuances you have to get right and add in there.
     
    Cantavanda and Galladhan like this.
  20. JML

    JML Wabbajackalope

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    349
    -
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  21. Galladhan

    Galladhan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    Posts:
    119
    Muahahahahah! We have the same point of view on COD :)
     
    Misty likes this.
  22. JML

    JML Wabbajackalope

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    349
    -
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  23. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    Maybe I'll legally change my name to Trixie, you would like that wouldn't you.

    Damage? You don't even know the meaning of damage.

    Never said it was, but keep on babbling, im sure your arguments impress yourself. They don't impress anyone else.
     
    Cantavanda likes this.
  24. Cantavanda

    Cantavanda 〜Flower Prince〜

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2016
    Posts:
    70
    Yeah! Wrecked him with your philosophrockets! Good job!
    P.S. Misty, do you find this girl beautiful? Because I do!
    [​IMG]
     
    MikeDark_x, Law and Misty like this.
  25. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    Thankyou. "Mission control, we have one confirmed kill, tango is down, over."

    "Roger that."
     
    Cantavanda likes this.
  26. Cantavanda

    Cantavanda 〜Flower Prince〜

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2016
    Posts:
    70
    check my edited PS
    what is our next move in the attack on unilluminated psuedo-philosopherfricks?
     
  27. Misty

    Misty Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Posts:
    1,024
    The wise always say, wait for the enemy to expose his strategy first.

    Are you sure its a girl, and not one of those japanese rock and roll dudes? In any case, I think they are beautiful.
     
    Cantavanda likes this.
  28. Law

    Law Guest

    Is Canta.. Trolling a troll? Has he become a vigilante troll?
     
  29. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2016
    Posts:
    6,901
    Your user title has been updated appropriately sire... ;)
     
    Lukasmah, Cantavanda, Law and 3 others like this.
  30. MikeDark_x

    MikeDark_x Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2016
    Posts:
    62
    Everyone does pass through that stage, by the way, Misty asks because Ash left her and is, once again, going through a depresión stage.

    Back to topic in my book, beauty is something that will change depending on a person's perspective, for example, I love the looks of many species of spiderman, but others (many others) would be horrorified when looking at one of those cute little fellows.

    In the past, a sexy woman wasn't anything like the kind of women we see as models but in fact was a bit chubby.

    What is beautifull to society can change over the time and what is beautifull to everyone can be really different from case to case, of course there can be things many agree on, but that's usually stuff that is learned.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice