If a person is born Half Man / Half Female...

K12gamer

Member
...Should they be allowed to compete against regular women in sports?

There's a genetic disorder where some women are born with testicles instead of ovaries...
or some women are born with XY chromosomes which genetically define them as men.
(Normal Females have XX chromosomes). These genetic defects allow certain women to
gain added muscle and strength. In some cases actual men have become transgender and
allowed to compete in women's sports.

Are you okay with this?

Example woman (Caster Semenya) born with testicles instead of ovaries...easily beating other women...
 

Roa

Member
I think its pretty stupid. Those off people that have mixed systems should be entered under the category they most physically define as they usually inherit traits of one sex over the other more strongly. Its almost never middle of the road, no matter what genitalia they have. Even if they start drugging themselves up on estrogen/testosterone, there is usually a noticeable discrepancy. There is a reason they keep men separate from women. The same reason wrestling has weight classes.
 

Ninety

Member
The biological definition of sex isn't as clear as you might think it is. There are multiple indicators including chromosome karyotype, presence of ovaries/testes and physical appearance. The standard gender binary (men are XY and have testes, women are XX and have ovaries, etc.) works for 99% of people but that 1% (including XY women and intersex people) don't fit so neatly into it.

Semenya's case has been the leading example of this recently. Although it's fair that the Olympic committee needs to work out what constitutes an acceptable entry, the way she has been treated is absolutely disgusting. If anything, they need to work out better gender category definitions so that similar cases can be avoided in the future.

The Olympics isn't a level playing field anyway. It'd be nice if it was, but the reality is many competitors have unfair advantages. Semenya's is one of them. If we ban her from competing on that basis, there'll be dozens of other famous athletes who'll have to go too.

This here is a good summary if you're interested.
 

Roa

Member
That's silly. There is a difference between having a disadvantage and working towards the same goal with training, and outright being outclassed. Again, the wrestler argument. Not all lightweight are equal, but they have a fair chance. Put a light weight against a good middle or any heavy weight, and he will get his ass destroyed in seconds.

Biological sex isn't clear because people want the waters to be muddy. This person has a dick, this person also has the muscle mass and testosterone of a male. Even looks like a male to me, body proportionately. They probably should be classified and competing against males. And yeah, I would be a little pissed off if someone on a grey boarder won effortlessly after I spent years of my life training for one shot in a life time at the biggest sporting event worldwide. I didn't say anything about banning them, I just said there needs to be obvious distinctions made here. A 2 second world record breaker and over 10 second lead....totally was no mistake here. Questioning the legitimacy of the event isn't disgusting if that's what you mean.

I mean, if we start doing this being lenient on qualifications and making grey areas, then we might as well remove all divide and put women in with the men, and then you will never see a women win anything ever again that involves any form of endurance. Which one do you prefer?
 
Last edited:

Ninety

Member
Questioning the legitimacy of the event isn't disgusting if that's what you mean.
That's not what I mean. Semenya was forced into intrusive gender testing and subjected to media speculation on her genitalia. She has been harassed at every turn. If you reread my post, you'll see I stated very clearly that the committee needs to be asking such questions.

This person has a dick, this person also has the muscle mass and testosterone of a male.
She's in the lower end of the typical male testosterone range, so far as I can tell. Yes. She doesn't "have a dick" so far as has been publicly confirmed, and such speculation is pretty objectionable if you ask me. If she was as easily sorted into the male category as you suggest, that's where she'd be.

I mean, if we start doing this being lenient on qualifications and making grey areas, then we might as well remove all divide and put women in with the men, and then you will never see a women win anything ever again that involves any form of endurance. Which one do you prefer?
Nice strawman.
 

Roa

Member
That's not what I mean. Semenya was forced into intrusive gender testing and subjected to media speculation on her genitalia. She has been harassed at every turn. If you reread my post, you'll see I stated very clearly that the committee needs to be asking such questions.
Not saying its right, but uhhh... that's called being a public figure. When you participate in something that is very uniform and official for the public, and you lie outside the boundary, people will want an explanation. You understand this is circumstantial and no one would care otherwise if it wasn't something that was polarized on gender and could be exploited?

She's in the lower end of the typical male testosterone range, so far as I can tell. Yes. She doesn't "have a dick" so far as has been publicly confirmed, and such speculation is pretty objectionable if you ask me. If she was as easily sorted into the male category as you suggest, that's where she'd be.
But I mean, that isn't where she was though, which is exactly why it is being brought to question now.


Nice strawman.
Well.. you could say that, but where exactly would you draw the line then? You don't agree with people seeing it as a disadvantage, or for people to know to ask questions on if they even should be participating with a group, so unless there is another option, kinda sounds to me like the separation isn't something that's important at all.

I'm indifferent either way, but genuinely curious.
 

Ninety

Member
Not saying its right, but uhhh... that's called being a public figure. When you participate in something that is very uniform and official for the public, and you lie outside the boundary, people will want an explanation. You understand this is circumstantial and no one would care otherwise if it wasn't something that was polarized on gender and could be exploited?
I'm not saying people shouldn't care, I'm saying she's being harassed and subjected to invasive testing. How many times do I need to restate this?

But I mean, that isn't where she was though, which is exactly why it is being brought to question now.
Exactly, that's why there's discussion. It's not wrong to have this discussion, but the specific ways in which it's being done are immoral, IMO. We need to be sensitive and not throw out random accusations.

Well.. you could say that, but where exactly would you draw the line then?
I don't know. That's exactly what the objective of this debate should be: working out where to draw the line. The Olympic community have a lot of tricky work ahead of them but hopefully they can arrive at some category definitions which respect people's identities while keeping the Games fair for everyone - at least as fair as a competition of this size and with this much money involved can be.
 

Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)

〜Flower Prince〜
Yup, if you're born with both hormones, then you should not participate, it is unfair.
The fairness of the contest, and the feelings of all other participants is more important then P.C. and how offended that one person is. It's just scientifically unfair, no one is misgendering/being sexist.
 

Roa

Member
I'm not saying people shouldn't care, I'm saying she's being harassed and subjected to invasive testing. How many times do I need to restate this?



Exactly, that's why there's discussion. It's not wrong to have this discussion, but the specific ways in which it's being done are immoral, IMO. We need to be sensitive and not throw out random accusations.



I don't know. That's exactly what the objective of this debate should be: working out where to draw the line. The Olympic community have a lot of tricky work ahead of them but hopefully they can arrive at some category definitions which respect people's identities while keeping the Games fair for everyone - at least as fair as a competition of this size and with this much money involved can be.
As many times as I have restate that she entered in a sexually divided global event and people are concerned about exploitation. I've not really seen abuse of Caster honestly.

Also, You don't know? If you can't ask questions, what can you do? That was kinda my whole point in the first post and not even bothering with separating males from female. Not everything needs to be on the wind about this individual, but he/she has to be properly categorized or else you get backlash like this, where its clear there is more than meets the eye. This isn't the first time this has happened either. Also, the lawyer is a 💩💩💩💩ing idiot from this article. His entire defense for her isn't even about her, the closest being about forcing people to take hormones to compete (that's a bull💩💩💩💩 request if its true, but I seriously doubt its forced and more of a threat of, we're going to put you in as a male, threatening your chance of winning highly) but how its discriminatory to even ask these questions to only women, the lowest bar of entry and the one entry that can be exploited. With a defense like that, I don't think the question is IF Caster is mostly male traited, but WILL they be allowed to prove that distinction now.


Yup, if you're born with both hormones, then you should not participate, it is unfair.
The fairness of the contest, and the feelings of all other participants is more important then P.C. and how offended that one person is. It's just scientifically unfair, no one is misgendering/being sexist.
.... argued literally no one ever. On the subject of strawmans... lol.... I hope this was a joke.
 
A

Alessio

Guest
Seriously: shouldn't be up to experts working on that field? After all, if that Caster Semenya has taken part of Rio 2016 there must be a reason after all, no?
 
R

roytheshort

Guest
you will never see a women win anything ever again that involves any form of endurance. Which one do you prefer?
Why do you want to see women win things? I thought you were anti-diversity and against forced equal representation of men and women, I'm surprised to see you take a left wing view on this issue.
 
N

NPT

Guest
I've not really seen abuse of Caster honestly.
Then you haven't been looking very hard.
  • She has had to submit to numerous medical examinations not unlike cavity searches.
  • She has had to submit to numerous DNA/hormone sampling procedures, well beyond what all other athletes endure.
  • She has been disqualified, re-enstated, disqualified, re-enstated numerous times since high school.
  • Her medical history, was to remain confidential, but has been leaked to the public for the world to comment on.

Cripes look at your own abusive and insensitive description of her.

This poor women has been born with a disorder that (at the best of times) many people ostracize, ridicule, abuse and outcast her for. Since becoming a world class athlete this negative attention has multiplied 10 fold.
 

Roa

Member
Why do you want to see women win things? I thought you were anti-diversity and against forced equal representation of men and women, I'm surprised to see you take a left wing view on this issue.
What are you even talking about? Why would I be? When have I even hinted at it? The left wing doesn't own ideas nor is the sole arbiter of equality and egalitarianism...or diversity. I don't section myself off to political parties anyways.

Then you haven't been looking very hard.
  • She has had to submit to numerous medical examinations not unlike cavity searches.
  • She has had to submit to numerous DNA/hormone sampling procedures, well beyond what all other athletes endure.
  • She has been disqualified, re-enstated, disqualified, re-enstated numerous times since high school.
  • Her medical history, was to remain confidential, but has been leaked to the public for the world to comment on.

Cripes look at your own abusive and insensitive description of her.

This poor women has been born with a disorder that (at the best of times) many people ostracize, ridicule, abuse and outcast her for. Since becoming a world class athlete this negative attention has multiplied 10 fold.

lmao, I sure was abusive, right? Saying she mostly takes on the traits of a male so should probably have been classified with them, how insensitive of me lol. How inhumane and oppressing lmao. Don't even try to spin this into some moral high ground BS. We're talking about ethics in qualifications for different groups of people in a world event, and you instantly spin it into a social justice and inequality issue. Not happening lol. You're right. I didn't go looking very hard. I wasn't trying to find it and make that the main point.

I have nothing to do with doxing, I have nothing to do with Olympic registration, I have nothing to do with people over reacting or being spiteful (which do you really think thats a majority?). I don't and haven't condone any of that. All I said was that it was fair to question it, and that it was fair to asses the person on an individual basis given the circumstances.

And again, public figure vying for public position. You're going to have to swim through the 💩💩💩💩 under public judgment, especially if you stand out and don't fit the mold. This goes for literally anyone in a position like this, not just this one trans. It's amazing how the defense instantly comes in full emotional swing when its a minority. This "poor" women is making mad bank and performing for the whole world to see, and winning by disproportional leaps and bounds.... so disadvantaged lol. I bet every other person in the audience was like "You know what? That trans person down there, I hate her. I'm wish I could beat them up" and if the cops weren't there, they would storm the field and stomp her to the ground. Happens every day mate lol. I'm sure when no one knew who she was, everyone hated her then too lol. You just happen to be that 10% exception right? The righteous? Seriously, can we put away the kids gloves and the radical idea that more people than not are out to get minorities? It's not even novel conspiracy theory anymore...

Anytime someone wants to contribute an alternative option that works for people in this situation, or not be ambiguous about their stance while making accusations of others, go ahead.
 

Ninety

Member
So hold on - NPT is among the 10% who wouldn't swarm onto the track and "stomp her into the ground"... And that's a bad thing?

Honestly, I have no idea what you're even arguing anymore.
 
N

NPT

Guest
lmao, I sure was abusive, right? Saying she mostly takes on the traits of a male so should probably have been classified with them, how insensitive of me lol. How inhumane and oppressing lmao. Don't even try to spin this into some moral high ground BS. We're talking about ethics in qualifications for different groups of people in a world event, and you instantly spin it into a social justice and inequality issue. Not happening lol. You're right. I didn't go looking very hard. I wasn't trying to find it and make that the main point.

I have nothing to do with doxing, I have nothing to do with Olympic registration, I have nothing to do with people over reacting or being spiteful (which do you really think thats a majority?). I don't and haven't condone any of that. All I said was that it was fair to question it, and that it was fair to asses the person on an individual basis given the circumstances.

And again, public figure vying for public position. You're going to have to swim through the **** under public judgment, especially if you stand out and don't fit the mold. This goes for literally anyone in a position like this, not just this one trans. It's amazing how the defense instantly comes in full emotional swing when its a minority. This "poor" women is making mad bank and performing for the whole world to see, and winning by disproportional leaps and bounds.... so disadvantaged lol. I bet every other person in the audience was like "You know what? That trans person down there, I hate her. I'm wish I could beat them up" and if the cops weren't there, they would storm the field and stomp her to the ground. Happens every day mate lol. I'm sure when no one knew who she was, everyone hated her then too lol. You just happen to be that 10% exception right? The righteous? Seriously, can we put away the kids gloves and the radical idea that more people than not are out to get minorities? It's not even novel conspiracy theory anymore...

Anytime someone wants to contribute an alternative option that works for people in this situation, or not be ambiguous about their stance while making accusations of others, go ahead.
You referring to her as "having a dick" is an abusive and insensitive way of describing her, or anyone with the condidtion she has (hyperandrogenism). It's also incorrect and rude. How can you acuse me of spinning? The quote is still there do you deny saying it or are you suggesting it isn't abusive and insensitive?
 

Roa

Member
So hold on - NPT is among the 10% who wouldn't swarm onto the track and "stomp her into the ground"... And that's a bad thing?

Honestly, I have no idea what you're even arguing anymore.
lol. I'm being a smart ass Ninety. Sarcasm and satirical stances are hard to put into text if you're not in the same mindset.

You referring to her as "having a dick" is an abusive and insensitive way of describing her, or anyone with the condidtion she has (hyperandrogenism). It's also incorrect and rude. How can you acuse me of spinning? The quote is still there do you deny saying it or are you suggesting it isn't abusive and insensitive?
Did I even try to deny it?
lol. Maybe slightly insensitive if you are even right about the conditions(which I don't know why you would know exacts if you were concerned about the personals medical leaks), but definitely not abusive. That's a pretty heavy word to throw around. You would know if you have been in, or known someone in an abusive situation.

I don't really have much reason to believe you over what OP posted. Frankly I don't even care who is right between you anyways, under what broad scope of trans/mixed she falls under, Its completely besides the point. I'm not getting in a pissing match about who has the shiniest armor. This inst about caster, or you, or me. All I did was address OP's part of question on how a situation was handled.
 
Last edited:

ShaunJS

Just Another Dev
GMC Elder
It's a very tough issue that nobody here really has a qualified stance on. These are just the PoVs of casual observers and it's worth keeping in mind that quite intrinsically none of us have a clue what we're talking about.

The question seems to be whether you consider chromosomes to be performance enhancing. Very basic biology would imply there are advantages here but I don't know the details.

So then perhaps you could consider divisions on a chromosome basis rather than a gender basis. Since a lot of issues tend to be rooted in the problematic language overlap between gender and initial chromosome pairs. The definition of "man" and "woman" is quickly proving to no longer be enough in modern society. The solution to that problem at wide is very much beyond my armchair sociologist guesswork.

However even if you find a solution there. People have genetic advantages in the same sporting classes anyway. The only way any physical sport is ever going to be "fair" is if the winner is always the one who put in the most training or approached the situation the most intelligently right?

Well no, not really. This rabbit hole goes deeper if you think on it but suffice to say that no matter what, human contests are always arbitrary and intrinsically unfair in some way or to some degree.

The problem seems to just be when people feel an advantage is arbitrarily "too large". But that stuff comes down to the community of that particular contest and its arbitrators.

Stuff like this is not really very important. It is often brought up by people who are uncomfortable with the shifting ideas in society towards gender identity and just want to highlight the social problems we haven't solved yet. Or people who thought they previously understood gender identity very clearly and are hopefully starting to realise that really nobody has this sorted yet.
 

RujiK

Member
Intersex's should participate in both gender's competitions and then get the average.
"You're 1st in women's but 4th in men's, so you're uh... 2.5th place."

(joke)
 
Last edited:

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
Stuff like this is not really very important. It is often brought up by people who are uncomfortable with the shifting ideas in society towards gender identity...
True, some people are uncomfortable with gender identity issues. But that's mostly about psychological gender identity -- not biological gender. The issue here is biological gender definition. And that's a legitimate question for the Olympic Committee. That said, the committee handled this particular case rather badly.

On a positive note, the fact that people with genetically mixed genders can be accepted as athletes and reach the Olympic games says that society is more accepting of differences. So who knows where this will lead? Maybe some day there will be a third gender at the Olympics, based on a medical definition of gender..
 
People should compete with members of the sex their body at birth/puberty most closely fits into. There's no point in, for lack of a better term, physically "normal" women even bothering to compete if we're going to allow people like Semenya to compete against them. Instead of worrying about the feelings of .01% of the athletes out there whose bodies don't match their minds, worry about the 99.99% of them who have trained their whole lives for this, only to have their dreams destroyed by this overly PC farce of "fair competition." Yes, it sucks for athletes like Semenya. Too bad. Better than making it suck for half the Earth's population.

An example, for the people who disagree. If we're going to start allowing people with hormone disorders like Semenya to compete against women, are we allowing transgender women to compete against cisgender women, too? Take this fellow:

If he announces tomorrow that in his heart of hearts, he is, and always has been a woman, are we going to let him her square off with (and quickly beat into a bloody pulp and murder) Ronda Rousey? Is that a fair competition? Is that what competition is about? For the vast majority of the population, our bodies fit neatly into one of two categories, and our bodies match our minds. It's with those two facts in mind that our competitions have been set up. It's unfortunate, but there is no fair way to allow people that sit outside these physical norms to take part in our physical competitions. I think it's ridiculous to ruin sport for half the population so that a tiny percentage can feel a bit better about themselves.

For all the banal pedants and all the muppets who love to nitpick and argue semantics out there: I know I've probably said some things "wrong" in this post. Sorry ahead of time. Please try to understand the spirit and logic of my argument, and respond to that if you're going to reply to me. Thank you.
 
Last edited:

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
The arguments being put forward here are absurd... You cannot throw in a stupid picture of a huge guy "saying he had a change of heart" and use that as an example against someone that has lived their entire lives with a condition. You can't even begin to understand the issues behind people that have gender dysphoria if you don't suffer it or haven't been around those that do, and the incredible lack of sympathy and understanding in this topic is quite frankly shocking. Personally I don't give a flying fig about these people in sport as their number is so mind-numbingly low that it is a non-issue, especially compared to other inequalities like Russia using drugs to boost their athletes, or the US using technology to boost their athletes, or the massive difference in performance between athletes from rich and poor countries due to the money they have thrown at them (and don't get me started on how the whole damn olympics system is corrupt anyway).

People who transition have to go through hell, and are required to go through multiple psychological evaluations, hormone therapy, surgery... and that's without taking into consideration the emotional and physical abuse they often have to face from heartless and compassionless people who just like to point the finger and say "I hate you because you are different". Instead of condemning people that do this, wouldn't it be better to appreciate them for having the courage to go ahead and be who they feel they really are rather than conform to some stupid bipolar societal norm? Believe it or not, but historically around the globe the idea of having more than one gender and gender fluidity has actually been quite common... and modern WESTERN society really only views these things as wrong or odd because of the influence of the christian church and the "puritan" values of the 18th century onwards.

In a world where technology is finally permitting us to be who we WANT to be and who we feel we NEED to be, this is something that backwards thinkers will need to get used to, and personally I can foresee a time not too far in the future where concepts like "gender" become irrelevant and those that hold on to them with such passion will be seen as the dinosaurs that they are.
 
The arguments being put forward here are absurd... You cannot throw in a stupid picture of a huge guy "saying he had a change of heart" and use that as an example against someone that has lived their entire lives with a condition.
Here we go! The muppet talk I was talking about. Completely ignoring my argument and talking about a perceived lack of sympathy and understanding I have. Feigned indignation, implied ad hominem, and a small army of strawmen for you to yell at. Classic GMC 💩💩💩💩-posting. Good job wasting your breath, Nocturne. :'D

Also, read my post again. My example didn't have a "change of heart." He was born that way and always has been a woman. You think just because he likes to work out and fight that he can't be a woman? You're a real god damned monster, Nocturne. Please come back when you learn some empathy. I can't even talk to people like you. Just glancing over your insensitive words is near enough to give me a case of the vapors. Someone bring me my fainting sofa!

Personally I don't give a flying fig about these people in sport as their number is so mind-numbingly low that it is a non-issue
I'm pretty sure there are more athletes in the world than there are transgender people, Nocturne. lol.

In a world where technology is finally permitting us to be who we WANT to be and who we feel we NEED to be, this is something that backwards thinkers will need to get used to, and personally I can foresee a time not too far in the future where concepts like "gender" become irrelevant and those that hold on to them with such passion will be seen as the dinosaurs that they are.
lol.
 
Last edited:

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Hmmm... yeah, SORRY if I offended you dear chap, that wasn't my intention at all ;). But your argument is still absurd, and I did address it fully in my reply, albeit in a roundabout manner, but since you seem unable to read the sub-context I'll spell it out for you.

For your argument to be true, after deciding they wanted to transition, they would have to go through multiple psychological examinations, live a few years of their life as the gender they identify with, then start hormone therapy and then finally go for surgery. So it's not something that people do lightly and requires a lot of dedication and a considerable amount of strength of character. I would have thought that after proving such dedication towards being who they want and feel they need to be they should be perfectly eligible to compete? (and I'm not saying that this is what should happen or what people with gender dysphoria should do, I'm just saying that currently that's what they have to do, and it's not nearly as simple as your simple argument tries to make out)

Also, your concept of what is a "fair" competition is absurd too. There are no "fair" competitions and fairness is (as Shaun quite perfectly pointed out) an arbitrary ideal that can never be attained. If genetically identical twins who grow in the same environment with the same stimulus can be radically different in both physical and mental strength, then what hope do two people that are born from different genetic stock, with different stimulus have of ever being equal? None. Its an arbitrary decision based on some metric that someone somewhere decided based on their own feelings of what is "fair".

Your argument about the "vast majority" being in one of two categories is absurd too, and studies have shown quite clearly that gender is far more complex and certainly not binary. If that's too dry and academic paper for you, have a read at this Time article...

PS: Please refrain from calling those that are in disagreement with you as "muppets". While not exactly an offensive word, it is obviously condescending and rather derisive, and as such I consider it just as insulting as any swear word when used in a serious discussion. ;)

PPS:
I'm pretty sure there are more athletes in the world than there are transgender people, Nocturne. lol.
Umm, that was exactly my point?

PPPS: There is nothing "feigned" about my indignation, and saying as much shows your complete lack of comprehension for what I've been saying. I also provide links to back up my position, and my arguments are concise and clearly worded... I fail to see ****-posting other than in your reply?
 
Last edited:
Hmmm... yeah, SORRY if I offended you dear chap, that wasn't my intention at all ;).
You didn't offend me, don't worry.
For your argument to be true, after deciding they wanted to transition, they would have to go through multiple psychological examinations, live a few years of their life as the gender they identify with, then start hormone therapy and then finally go for surgery.
Whoa whoa whoa. Who said anything about my example getting surgery? Just because she has a penis and a male's body doesn't mean she's not a woman, Nocturne, you insensitive cis-scum. The example I posted would love to have a female body, but has decided not to for now, because she's afraid of what surgery and hormones would do to her. Horrible aversion to hospitals in general. Really, really terrible situation she's in.

I'm sure you'll agree she's a women though, right? And since she's a woman, she should be allowed to fight in the UFC against her fellow women, right?

Female


versus

Female


That would be a fair competition, right? Wouldn't be "absurd" at all to watch those two go at it, would it? =)
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Sigh... Yes, you are obviously right and I am woefully wrong. How could I have been so blind as to argue with such obvious and blinding logic. Seriously, you just ignore all my points and post a couple of images and think that it justifies your position? The word "hopeless" in your username is very appropriate as arguing with you is certainly hopeless...

Whoa whoa whoa. Who said anything about my example getting surgery? Just because she has a penis and a male's body doesn't mean she's not a woman, Nocturne, you insensitive cis-scum. The example I posted would love to have a female body, but has decided not to, because she's afraid of what surgery and hormones would do to her. Horrible aversion to hospitals in general. Really, really terrible situation she's in.
And you have the cheek to accuse me of "feigning". #lol
 
And you have the cheek to accuse me of "feigning". #lol
My language is sarcastic, because I think you're completely ignoring my points and appealing to emotion. It was a legitimate example, though. There ARE transgender people out there who choose not to transition, and they ARE as strong as whatever sex they physically are. You obviously believe that anyone who believes they're a woman is a woman. I believe it too, and feel for those people. I just don't think, unfortunate as it is for them, that they can fairly compete physically in any mainstream competition. And I don't think we should ruin physical competition for the vast majority of people out there so that a very small minority can compete.

You won't answer my question of "should these two be able to professionally fight against each other?", because you know they obviously shouldn't be able to.. And that ruins your entire argument. ;)

So....
Sigh... Yes, you are obviously right and I am woefully wrong.
Correct, thank you. Have a nice night. :p
 
Last edited:

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
My language is sarcastic, because I think you're completely ignoring my points and appealing to emotion. It was a legitimate example, though.
Ummm....

If he announces tomorrow that in his heart of hearts, he is, and always has been a woman, are we going to let him her square off with (and quickly beat into a bloody pulp and murder) Ronda Rousey?
For your argument to be true, after deciding they wanted to transition, they would have to go through multiple psychological examinations, live a few years of their life as the gender they identify with, then start hormone therapy and then finally go for surgery. So it's not something that people do lightly and requires a lot of dedication and a considerable amount of strength of character. I would have thought that after proving such dedication towards being who they want and feel they need to be they should be perfectly eligible to compete?
Is that a fair competition? Is that what competition is about?
Also, your concept of what is a "fair" competition is absurd too. There are no "fair" competitions and fairness is (as Shaun quite perfectly pointed out) an arbitrary ideal that can never be attained. If genetically identical twins who grow in the same environment with the same stimulus can be radically different in both physical and mental strength, then what hope do two people that are born from different genetic stock, with different stimulus have of ever being equal? None. Its an arbitrary decision based on some metric that someone somewhere decided based on their own feelings of what is "fair".
For the vast majority of the population, our bodies fit neatly into one of two categories, and our bodies match our minds
Your argument about the "vast majority" being in one of two categories is absurd too, and studies have shown quite clearly that gender is far more complex and certainly not binary. If that's too dry and academic paper for you, have a read at this Time article...
I think it's ridiculous to ruin sport for half the population so that a tiny percentage can feel a bit better about themselves.
Personally I don't give a flying fig about these people in sport as their number is so mind-numbingly low that it is a non-issue, especially compared to other inequalities like Russia using drugs to boost their athletes, or the US using technology to boost their athletes, or the massive difference in performance between athletes from rich and poor countries due to the money they have thrown at them (and don't get me started on how the whole damn olympics system is corrupt anyway).
I'm ignoring your points? I've yet to see you address any of mine... ;)

EDIT:
You won't answer my question of "should these two be able to professionally fight against each other?", because you know they obviously shouldn't be able to.. And that ruins your entire argument. ;)
I can't answer your question which is very different to won't. In my opinion it's a stupid question that would depend on SO many factors that to try and give a yes/no answer is just pointless, and it's an obvious attempt to make me commit to a specific answer so that you can then shoot it down or say "see, I was right". Things are not black and white and trying to reduce a complex problem to such clear-cut examples can't be done.
 
Last edited:

Roa

Member
we have somehow turned this into a social justice issue again and are only viewing it from a social lens, yet again. I hate even having these conversations sometimes because I know some people will never look past this in modern times. Literally no one should be talking about gender, yet its the only thing anyone in this convo will mention...

@Nocturne We're not talking about how people identify themselves. That has no bearing on how they are physically built. If a few backwater countries have different recognition of genders or trans people is not even a point. Labels are just that. Trans are every where in the world and they still are recognized. No one just wishes them away or denies they exist because we are in western culture lol. We simply don't completely re-categorize them, but see which they fall closest to.

Your articles are reactionary. They are published around the same time as the caster stuff as to shift the focus like "but he did it too" mind set. Yeah, Russia and other countries cheat a lot, and you know what? They medically test them, and their test results are announced publicly to the world, where they either participate or are banned outright. They banned over 100 entrants in the last Olympic sporting event. Sure sounds like they just allow everything and they get away with it, right? Why is this a problem when its people demanding to see how closely a trans falls under their chosen sex category? Just because things can be unfair to a point doesn't mean they should do nothing at all, again, going back to my "strawman" of how maybe there just shouldn't be sexual division at all. You don't think pulling 10 second ahead of the group and breaking a world record by 2 seconds, 90 years in the making is a big difference in ability??? There is no denying that this is without a doubt, quite a noticeable exception.


And again, going back to this 10%. If no one understands them, what makes you qualified to speak for them? Are you on a moral high ground or something? Are you one? Is there a study to understanding the oh so different feelings of a trans? Do you know all of them are oppressed and have a hard life by birth alone? Do they ever have good times, or are they only viewed as inhuman and in need of protection buy social justice? Is there a linear progression of the character they exhibit by being alive?
We live in one of the most accepting and technologically advanced times for people to be who they want, and yet people say this now more than ever. Can we stop this default narrative that the world is out to get them all?

Also...no. Binary gender is definitely does NOT have its starting point in Christianity. Binary gender comes from developed/developing worlds in general, because the division and distinction of male and female was often how survival was ensured. People found out real quick that women, bearers of children were ethically suited for work in homesteads and care practices in conditions of raising children before death, while men were sent off to work longer hours of vigorous labor and deal with dangerous situation like hunting or war or what ever else. This stems from very basic realizations of biology and connection on the value of sexuality in each sex. Women are valued much more sexually as ovary and egg are limited (9 month waiting period) and child labor could even cause death, so just the act of giving children was dangerous already. Men were not valued for sexuality as semen can be reproduced by nearly every male in a matter of hours, so form a survival standpoint, its not as important if they live, besides the fact that they are structured to be stronger and deal with things, so it was mores suited to give them the more grueling task. Genders spawn from these realizations of biological truths, just as gender norms of the western world do. Binary genders has largely been the most common culture norm the world over and very few pockets of people really make a huge leap from them. Places were Christianity has never even touched. Ironically to your comment, the places that don't have binary genders are mostly places that have genders spawned from increased medical practices, in reverse, complete lack of technological growth that keeps up, or views of faith. This is sociology 101. This is literally first week material. Its only because of the devaluing of sex procreation and people's time that you would even bother to be aware of these things Noc. People are so obsessed with labels now days. This entire shift in social norms is only happening because its not required to live as people live longer, sexual value has decreased significantly, and we live in times of relative peace.

And yeah, none of this is "that simple", that's why we are discussing it. It wouldn't need to be a conversation if it was. HOW EVER, we seem to keep steering this in a social justice direction about how bad they have it vs, what can actually be done about the problem. Just more accusations of who is and isn't qualified to talk about it or be oppressed. Its such a one track mind, to always and only look at these people through the social lens. Its literally exhausting to read.


@RichHopelessComposer You're being ridiculous. No one is allowing known extremities like this. Clearly no one has a real answer to fit either side. You're being way too black and white on something you yourself represent with such ambiguous fluidity in opinions. No one is saying hulk hogan should go smash on the highschool girls wrestling team because he wants to hand himself a label.



[edit]

Actually, you know what? I'm out already. This is pointless and retarded. These conversations dont go anywhere. I already know there are some people who literally can't see or imagine the world and people without social lenses. And others who will be obstinate to fight against a vocal minority by drawing unrealistic and arbitrary lines in the sand so.. what ever. There is no solution because we can't even stay focused on the issue. It somehow always turns into an us vs them vs us for them, and I'm just not willing to deal with it anymore. I'm so glad everyone knows best for trans and we talk about them in absolutes and like their cattle owned to a group.
 
Last edited:

Gradius

Member
...Should they be allowed to compete against regular women in sports?
Would you force them to compete against males instead? Surely they'd be at a strong disadvantage then. Or just ban them from sports altogether?

I mean, to some degree everyones ability at sports is genetically limited. So if someone's genetics allows them to gain muscle more easily, is that truly unfair? We certainly don't ban basketball players whose genetics allow them to be taller than the other players. Yao Ming is definitely far outside of normal Chinese heights. A gender/sex division makes sense so far as creating a reasonably fair playing field without an entire gender basically having no chance of playing professionally, beyond that things are far too blurred for anything other than 'probably?' to be fair.
 
H

heyimdandan

Guest
I'm all for debate and discussion, but these things always turn into the same old online grandstanding and posturing. I'm even in two minds about making this comment, but I'm going to because not enough people can see these topic posts for what they are - baiting. Ideally I'd like to see less people biting and cracking on with their games.
 
M

Misty

Guest
Competitors should be paired according to body weight, strength and muscular index, not gender.
It's not a matter of "right wrong good or bad' but, - does it feel fair for the participants and - is it entertaining to watch?
Personally, I wish girls were allowed to play in CS:GO tournaments because it would simply be both more entertaining and educational to watch. Genders have been separated for two long and we almost never get a chance to experience their natural dynamics in tandem when it comes to athletic events.

Imagine how much more exciting football would be if the quarterback's wife could participate. Man and wife, out on the field, playing in tandem, on the same team, for the same goals. I think that could actually help mend relationships and bring vitality to the couple.
 
Last edited:

Ehsan

Pirates vs Clones
tl;dr

Not following Olympics (or sports whatsoever) but compared to men are the womens peformance that much apart (these days)? If not this could be an easy decision to let transgenders participate. But I'm expecting it's not simple...anyone I came for the name. Caster Semenya? Am I the only one...k cool
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
Competitors should be paired according to body weight, strength and muscular index, not gender.
I'm curious how to define "muscular index". Based on racial and gender differences in typical body type, I can imagine how categories might look.

And of course, different sports favor different body types. And many sports rely less on physical strength or endurance, and more on (say) balance and agility. So presumably these categories would only apply to certain sports.

Anyway... it's an interesting idea, although I don't think it's practical. But fun to speculate about.
 
R

roytheshort

Guest
I'm all for debate and discussion, but these things always turn into the same old online grandstanding and posturing. I'm even in two minds about making this comment, but I'm going to because not enough people can see these topic posts for what they are - baiting. Ideally I'd like to see less people biting and cracking on with their games.
As long as the games don't contain political issues, otherwise the cycle never ends.

 
A

Alessio

Guest
Not sure if it was baiting in the first place.

Seriously, i also thought you could pair competitors based on strenght rather to gender but... well, this is so complicated, i'm no expert and no one (if not few) of us is one. We could strive to understand how it feels to be someone like Caster Semenya but if we don't have her same condition it's going to be very very hard. I would leave the analysis to experts.
 
L

Law

Guest
It's brilliant to see how the issue of gender identity has become so politicized, that a topic that isn't actually about transgenderism (I really don't see how intersex has got anything to do with a man identifying as woman) still for some reason becomes an argument about it. Welcome to the internet, were everyone's sitting on a bunch of things they want to say, waiting for an excuse to derail a topic into the one they want to argue about.
 
Things are not black and white and trying to reduce a complex problem to such clear-cut examples can't be done.
You can, though. You just don't want to. My point is this: it's obvious to everyone, including you, since you refuse to answer my simple question, that it doesn't make sense to allow transgender women to compete against cisgender women, at least in certain cases. That's all my example is getting at. After that's established, the only thing we're disagreeing on is the case of Semenya. You think that in this case, she should be allowed to compete against other women. I disagree. I think that her completely destroying all her competition is proof enough that she has no business competing against other women. You disagree, and think Semenya's feelings are more important than a "fair" playing field for the other 99% of women out there. It's as simple as that, and we really don't have anything to argue about, which is why I haven't addressed your other points - they're meaningless to me once we agree that it doesn't always make sense for transgender women to compete against cisgender women.

I'll address some of your other points anyway, though, just to be a good sport, since you did write some long replies:

You mentioned technology bringing us to a point where birth gender doesn't matter anymore. We're not there yet. Not for physical competition, at least. As an avid science fiction reader, I'm right there with you, though. I can't wait for the day when our bodies don't matter anymore. Everyone will be better off.

You also mentioned that sport is never fair, and you're right. That doesn't matter, though. What matters in sport is the illusion of fairness. Physical sports are about celebrating physical fitness, sportsmanship, discipline, and hard work. In order for sports to work, we need the illusion of a level playing field for all athletes. It's the reason we have weight classes in combat sports. No 50kg man would take up boxing if he was going to be fighting 120kg men his whole career. Even if the 50kg man is completely untalented and will never go anywhere in the sport, the weight classes give him the hope that he could become an elite athlete with enough work. Even if he doesn't become a world champion, he'll still benefit greatly from the sport, lured in by the hope that he could become a winner. It's true that certain body builds are beneficial for certain sports, but short people still try out for basketball (and some even excel). Having people who are physically closer to being men than women compete against cisgender women is a step too far. They'll crush their competition every time, destroying the illusion for cisgender women, and stealing their reason for competing away from them. Which is why, unfortunate as it is, I don't see a place in the sporting world for them. Not everything can be for everyone. My view is if we have to ruin something for some group of people (and for physical sport, until medicine catches up, I think we do), then we should ruin it for the smallest group of people possible. Agree or disagree with me. I think we've both said all we have to say, hahah.
 
Last edited:
N

NPT

Guest
This is the greatest bs I ever heard. Lie. I have met transgenders and they always tell me they are 100% man in a womans body. Some breast implants and few hormone and drugs do not make you a woman. If you would say to a he\she you have disorder the transgender will for certain will threaten you that she\he will take out his\her penis. I do not know what type of man you are, do you like to to look at a penis of a he/she? If not do not say they have disorder, or say it in their face.

You should know that some transgenders do not have a dick. I know at least 2. And they always cry for the mistake they made even after 30 years. You should first talk to those type of man who become woman before making false statements. I can arrange a debate for you with transgenders. For now keep your bs with yourself.
Han, you really need to try to keep up. I wasn't talking about a Transgender. I, and others, were specifically talking about Caster Semenya. She is not Transgender.
 
M

Misty

Guest
You can, though. You just don't want to. My point is this: it's obvious to everyone, including you, since you refuse to answer my simple question, that it doesn't make sense to allow transgender women to compete against cisgender women, at least in certain cases. That's all my example is getting at. After that's established, the only thing we're disagreeing on is the case of Semenya. You think that in this case, she should be allowed to compete against other women. I disagree. I think that her completely destroying all her competition is proof enough that she has no business competing against other women. You disagree, and think Semenya's feelings are more important than a "fair" playing field for the other 99% of women out there. It's as simple as that, and we really don't have anything to argue about, which is why I haven't addressed your other points - they're meaningless to me once we agree that it doesn't always make sense for transgender women to compete against cisgender women.

I'll address some of your other points anyway, though, just to be a good sport, since you did write some long replies:

You mentioned technology bringing us to a point where birth gender doesn't matter anymore. We're not there yet. Not for physical competition, at least. As an avid science fiction reader, I'm right there with you, though. I can't wait for the day when our bodies don't matter anymore. Everyone will be better off.

You also mentioned that sport is never fair, and you're right. That doesn't matter, though. What matters in sport is the illusion of fairness. Physical sports are about celebrating physical fitness, sportsmanship, discipline, and hard work. In order for sports to work, we need the illusion of a level playing field for all athletes. It's the reason we have weight classes in combat sports. No 50kg man would take up boxing if he was going to be fighting 120kg men his whole career. Even if the 50kg man is completely untalented and will never go anywhere in the sport, the weight classes give him the hope that he could become an elite athlete with enough work. Even if he doesn't become a world champion, he'll still benefit greatly from the sport, lured in by the hope that he could become a winner. It's true that certain body builds are beneficial for certain sports, but short people still try out for basketball (and some even excel). Having people who are physically closer to being men than women compete against cisgender women is a step too far. They'll crush their competition every time, destroying the illusion for cisgender women, and stealing their reason for competing away from them. Which is why, unfortunate as it is, I don't see a place in the sporting world for them. Not everything can be for everyone. My view is if we have to ruin something for some group of people (and for physical sport, until medicine catches up, I think we do), then we should ruin it for the smallest group of people possible. Agree or disagree with me. I think we've both said all we have to say, hahah.
What about nerds and short people? Aren't they physically outmatched? Most people are not 7 feet tall, so isn't unfair that 7 feet tall people be selected for basketball while short people and nerds can't? 1 out of 5,555 people are intersex, yet only 1 out of 2,500,000 people are 7 feet tall or over, so 7 feet tall is even more rare and unfair advantage than intersex.
 
Last edited:
What about nerds and short people? Aren't they physically outmatched? Most people are not 7 feet tall, so isn't unfair that 7 feet tall people be selected for basketball while short people and nerds can't? 1 out of 5,555 people are intersex, yet only 1 out of 2,500,000 people are 7 feet tall or over, so 7 feet tall is even more rare and unfair advantage than intersex.
Are you joking? I answered your exact question in the last paragraph of the post you just quoted. Why are you quoting things you didn't even bother to read?! X'D
 
M

Misty

Guest
Are you joking? I answered your exact question in the last paragraph of the post you just quoted. Why are you quoting things you didn't even bother to read?! X'D
I already read your post. You're acting like a short person has a chance against a 7 footer.
 
H

Hugh Patrick Greene

Guest
If I may put in my two cents worth, (and i hope you'll not chew my head off ;) ), the question asked is "
If a person is born Half Man / Half Female... should they be allowed to compete against regular women in sports?"


It is an interesting question and based on the comments and replies going on, it has touched a a lot of people. Some have strayed from the question and gone into other areas I not qualified to comment on. However, to answer the question asked I must emphatically say NO, they should not compete in sports. Here's my reason.

By definition, these individuals are not males nor are they female. Hold on a minute and allow me to go further.

If you check up the word 'Male' on Dictionary.com you'll get this definition :> a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.

for 'female" we get:> a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.

for 'shemale' :> Slang definitions & phrases for shemale
shemale
noun

  1. A female (1854+)
  2. A tough woman or aggressive lesbian; bulldyke (1972+)
  3. A passive male homosexual
  4. A transvestite (1983+)
Interesting that there is no definite explanation; only a slang or phrase.

for transgender we have :>

adjective
1.
noting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond to
that person’s biological sex assigned at birth: the transgender movement;
transgender rights.
2.
noting or relating to a person who does not conform to
societal gender norms or roles.

transsexual :>
noun
1.

a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2.
a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

there are some parts that I have highlighted and the reason is to emphasize that
the gender of the individual's sex assigned at birth is and should be the key element to this question, and or any question to the whether any individual be called by. Its at simple as that. was she born with testicles and a penis at birth, then she by definition a man so she should not been in a woman's event. End of story.
 
N

NPT

Guest
there are some parts that I have highlighted and the reason is to emphasize that the gender of the individual's sex assigned at birth is and should be the key element to this question, and or any question to the whether any individual be called by. Its at simple as that. was she born with testicles and a penis at birth, then she by definition a man so she should not been in a woman's event.
No.

She doesn't have a penis.
She doesn't have tsticles, however she has internal non-fully testes.
I'd also like to point out that in your definitions of male and female, the presence of "normally" allows for exceptions.

End of story.
As much as you feel this makes you look as the reasoned, authority, it just makes you look arrogant. Especially given you're wrong.
 
I already read your post. You're acting like a short person has a chance against a 7 footer.
Read the last paragraph again, very slowly. Also, realize that there are a few short players *currently active* in the NBA. Also, think really hard about how team sports might work a little differently than a sport like running, where every person works alone on their own strength. Try your best, Misty. :p

I do agree that most short guys would probably take up wrestling or baseball or something before basketball, though.

But yeah, I already answered the questions you're asking me in the post you quoted. Doesn't mean you'll agree with me, but I see no reason to retype what I've already said for you. Have a good day, misty! =)
 
M

Misty

Guest
I already read, analyzed your post. You say intersex will break the game because they are too much like juggernauts, and yet one reason people enjoy sports is because of juggernauts, such as lebron james, quaterbacks, mike tyson, muhammed ali etc. As for Olympic single events, make an intersex/trans division. The Olympics is boring anyway, but I'd probably actually start watching it if it had such a division.
 
Top