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Question - IDE IDE too crowded?

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GMWolf

aka fel666
To be fait, you can create multiple workspaces.
I end up with one workspace per object, with all its related resources. Thats nice. I do like that. But i cant stop thinking the same oculd be done better with a more classical approach.
 

zbox

Member
GMC Elder
Guess I should have been more vigilant in filling the pre-public beta feedback stuff. I get lost so frequently and I'm dying for native windows controls and buttons etc.

totally agree with the sentiment that i spend my time trying to fill the onscreen workspace up with a single code editor, and on laptop time is spent searching for a bit of background to drag around on and activate move/zoom controls

next time
 
Something that would be excellent for laptop mode would be a way to pan the "camera" (like when you hold down ALT) in the workspace around even if the mouse is on top of the code editor. Right now, as someone else said before, you need to search for a piece of background in the workspace which is sometimes difficult and cumbersome. Maybe Shift + Alt could work?
 
I'm not a fan of workspaces I hate all this dragging stuff around espial when I try doing so inside a script deleting blocks of code
Something that would be excellent for laptop mode would be a way to pan the "camera" (like when you hold down ALT) in the workspace around even if the mouse is on top of the code editor. Right now, as someone else said before, you need to search for a piece of background in the workspace which is sometimes difficult and cumbersome. Maybe Shift + Alt could work?
My biggest grievance! Hitting spacebar forgetting to select empty space and deleting a block of code in the process.

Drives me mad but still it's only a beta and things will improve over time. I hope!
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
totally agree with the sentiment that i spend my time trying to fill the onscreen workspace up with a single code editor
Why would you do that? if you want that, why not set the preference to open up code in full screen tabs?

I use the workspace for resources as normal, and then I have multiple tabs with full screen code editors, each with scripts groups together. Then I name the tab to do with that grouping. In my MOD editor I have 3 tabs... Loading, Playing and Rendering. Each is in 2 column mode, and has several scripts on each side. This means I can go to the tab that contains all the bits I need for what I'm working on. I then just don't close anything.

In the workspace when doing games, I'll open lots of objects, tiles, sprites etc as need be as I work on a specific thing. I'll then when I move onto another area, I'll just select close all windows via the desktop right click. While they're open, I'll use the middle mouse to scroll up and down to find the one I'm after - or bookmark them if I'm jumping around a lot.


We have just added (internally) middle mouse panning and zooming while over a code windows - this has definitely been needed and I apologise for it taking so long to appear.

If you do sit with many script windows open, then just remember you can flick to a nearby script using CTRL+ALT+Cursors. Be warned though, some graphics drivers steal these keys to rotate the display. Most useless shortcut ever.

Lastly... I have no problems with evolving the workspaces. This is just the first version, and I'm all for making it better. But I'm not going to throw away what is clearly a better system than 1.x (or previous) ever had. I've said it countless times; the old windows on top of windows was a nightmare. You could only ever open a few windows at once before you got lost. While not perfect, the workspaces does allow you to have much more open, and let you find them. Yes, theres a lot of new stuff in there and it'll take time to figure out whats best for you - especially with all the shortcuts and little navigation tools, but I do believe it's better and I want to iterate on that.
 

DeScruff

Member
Bleah.... windows on top of windows was quite probably the worst thing about the older versions.

Yes it's different an change is almost always hard, but it is much better once you're used to it.
Just wanna point out... You kinda sound like Microsoft did when it came to Windows 8 :p
Though I dunno how well that turned out for them. ;)

Anyways I'll argue Windows on top of windows isn't as bad as you make it out to be, seeing as we have used that kinda system for years now - and I'm not talking just about Gamemaker, but OSes. And that any keyboard shortcut you make that helps find something even if it's offscreen, could also apply to something that is buried under 30 windows. - Cause really whats the difference to a user, something that is off screen, and something that is under something else? (Well except for the fact that the window is right were they left in in relation to the physical screen, while in a workspace it could be anywhere and if you never zoomed out would could have no concept of where it is relative to other objects in the workspace.)
I'd also argue that windows on top of eachother is much more grounded in the physical world in the vein of papers on a desk. While Workspaces is a more abstract concept thats closest counterpart I can think of is working on something while looking through a microscope... Which isn't that common.

- I know Windows aren't returning. but I'm just giving my 2c.
 
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Storyteller

Member
what exactly is wrong with a window being on top of a window?
makes it easy to see one thing partially while working on another.
I guess if you have LOT of them open it is 'messy' but it really should be optional.
as for the chaining showing different relationships, use colors or stippling of the lines to show the type of relationship.

I too, basically only work with a code editor open, though I use GM less and less each year, I rather WANT to use it, I just find it terribly restrictive and kludgy. Maybe these workspaces will help, I hear the new room editor is good.

What Id like, is my room editor, and to have things all around it with their dialogues. So if I have a platform game (that GM was built around) I have my main player on one side and there is a line drawn to him and I can open his properties, his sprite, his code, that is all off say, to the left of the room editor in the workspace (but I could move that 'group' of windows wherever) Then maybe there is a platform that moves and it has its main properties window and attached 'sub windows' on the right or up above in the workspace, and I can operate on them, and say an enemy is down below the main room window in the workspace. If I want to work on the 'template' enemy, I can go to another tab, or open it in that workspace in a different area.

The idea is, I work on the game, as I see it, and can pan/scroll about the room and edit it, and open editors/dialogues off to the side of that room to set up entities etc. Like seeing the game from a meta perspective... perhaps a picture would help...
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Just wanna point out... You kinda sound like Microsoft did when it came to Windows 8 :p
Though I dunno how well that turned out for them. ;)
Anyways I'll argue Windows on top of windows isn't as bad as you make it out to be, seeing as we have used that kinda system for years now - and I'm not talking just about Gamemaker, but OSes.
And this is exactly why I have 4 monitors, and use multiple desktops. So yeah.... certainly not convincing me :)
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
And this is exactly why I have 4 monitors, and use multiple desktops. So yeah.... certainly not convincing me :)
Gamemaker has been used by younger folks and students for most of its lifetime. Only recently has it become more of a profetional tool with GM:Studio. But, Im fairly sure a majority of GM users do not have the means for multiple monitors.
I know that even if i did have the cash, I dont have the space on my desk for a second monitor.

4 monitors, now thats the dream.
 

DeScruff

Member
I have 4 monitors,
You have no idea how much that explains things...
Ive been feeling like this UI was designed for a 4K monitor - or lots of smaller monitors rather then 1 or 2 1080/1200 monitor(s) Cause when I zoom out, it feels... better (except that the text is hard to read, specially with my preferred font)

I dunno I feel like I can't get as much on 1 screen, and I'm starting to feel like I need 4 screens - Which Ive never felt like Ive needed before in Gamemaker. Usually my 2 1200p monitors were enough. - I personally find it hard to imagine how Workspaces would be on a 768 screen. I feel like you would need to hide/unhide every sidebar constantly, unless you only want to read 23 lines of code.
 
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codemouse

Member
Hate to jump in and act to the contrary...but I love the infinite canvas workspace. I honestly wish I had the same thing in other tools, like Unity. It looks perfect on my single 1080p monitor, and F12 is always there to quickly simplify things. If nothing else it feels far less claustrophobic because I'm not always forcing my game display inbetween 3 tools panels. I suppose if you wanted to go "further" and clear up more space, the best route forward apart from code tabs would be what Maya does (moving all file menus/buttons to an overlay display that appears when you hold Spacebar)

(I'd say the only issue I run into is sometimes when jumping between scripts it will display a script that extends underneath the rightside tools display, but I imagine that's some low-priority bug as a result of how it's managing window priority and size...)

Anyway, just my two cents...
 

DeScruff

Member
I do see the advantages when you have a million things up, but its just too problematic when you want to keep the important things up.
I think my ultimate annoyance is that things are moving that I don't want moving. If I placed a codeblock on the left side of my screen, I want it there. I don't want it constantly moving around on my screen as I move object to object.

I want to put that code "window"/cell/ whatever its called on a GUI layer so it dosn't scroll around, I want it to stay on my screen where I put it - And no that isn't the same as locking it to the sides, like the resource tree.
Cause as it stands now, this is how working with workspaces feels like to me:
You put your phone down, on your desk, and as you start using your computer's keyboard, your phone flys off to a different part of your desk.
You get a text, so you pick up your phone, now your computer's keyboard flys off to a different part of the desk, rather then just staying right in front of you.

I'm thinking about Roller Coaster Tycoon 1&2, and trying to imagine how annoying it would be, if the windows for Handymen, Path building or whatever weren't part of the GUI, and were actually on the park view.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
I do see the advantages when you have a million things up, but its just too problematic when you want to keep the important things up.
I think my ultimate annoyance is that things are moving that I don't want moving. If I placed a codeblock on the left side of my screen, I want it there. I don't want it constantly moving around on my screen as I move object to object.

I want to put that code "window"/cell/ whatever its called on a GUI layer so it dosn't scroll around, I want it to stay on my screen where I put it - And no that isn't the same as locking it to the sides, like the resource tree.
Cause as it stands now, this is how working with workspaces feels like to me:
You put your phone down, on your desk, and as you start using your computer's keyboard, your phone flys off to a different part of your desk.
You get a text, so you pick up your phone, now your computer's keyboard flys off to a different part of the desk, rather then just staying right in front of you.

I'm thinking about Roller Coaster Tycoon 1&2, and trying to imagine how annoying it would be, if the windows for Handymen, Path building or whatever weren't part of the GUI, and were actually on the park view.
That is the problem exactly! I know something was the problem but i never quite coulc put my finger on it.

Yes, Sometimes im working on a script and wonder: "Right, what does this script return again? was it the radius or the diameter?", So i open up the script and my view moves, putting the script im working on out of the view. this alone takes ~4 seconds as i reorient myslef, and my eyes settle on the code. 1 second later i see the comment that sais "radius" and i start looking for my original script: Its gone. I now either have to hunt in the workspace or drill down into the resource tree. Alternativly, i can use the search funtion, but thats isnt teribly fast either.
So somehting that should take a couple seconds now takes much longer AND is frustrating.

Keep in mind that on my monitor, a fairly standard 1080p 15 inch laptop monitor, I often fill the entire workspace with a code window, unless i go to tabbed modewhere i split it in 1 or 2 colums.
 

TrunX

Member
I personally find it hard to imagine how Workspaces would be on a 768 screen. I feel like you would need to hide/unhide every sidebar constantly, unless you only want to read 23 lines of code.
Worked two days on a little game for the GMS2 Beta Jam using GMS2 for the first on my notebook with a 768p resolution. And it was a very bad experience. Will definitly not use it again on the laptop.
Most "windows" that open up inside the workspace are not displayed completely. So you have to scroll and zoom around constantly and in some cases there isn't even a free spot to click on that allows scrolling and zooming in first place. So you have to first close both sidebars to find that free spot inside the workspace. I spend more time with the whole scrolling and zooming and finding things again that were in front of me just a second ago than actually working on things. I could imagine this experience could put off a lot of new users.

But since I'm using GM since over 13 years I will give it a second try on my desktop some time in the (near?) future.
 

Ethanicus

Ethan L!
Gamemaker has been used by younger folks and students for most of its lifetime. Only recently has it become more of a profetional tool with GM:Studio
This has annoyed me a lot recently. I think YoYo is trying to appeal to pros and is desperately trying to shed this image of being a beginners' tool, but in doing so they're only alienating their actual userbase of long time users.
That and they frankly keep acting like every decision they make is final, irreversible, and -- because it was intentional -- the right thing to do. They need to learn their real market and go for them.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
I think YoYo is trying to appeal to pros and is desperately trying to shed this image of being a beginners' tool
Unfortunately, it seems they decided to do so by using an IDE that looks cool.
Because yes, I still dont think chains do anything but look cool :(
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Your mistaking needing 4 monitors to use windows, to 1 to use GMS2. Due to the windows on top of windows nature, I need multiple desktops and multiple monitors so I can spread things around easily.

I don't need this in GMS2, the workspace gives me that and allows me to work on one monitor.

That and they frankly keep acting like every decision they make is final, irreversible, and -- because it was intentional -- the right thing to do. They need to learn their real market and go for them.
Frankly, this is a little insulting. We've changed loads of stuff, we've adapted loads of stuff, we've added loads of stuff - all based on user feedback.

This topic is not the whole community, or even close to the number of users giving us feedback. We always listen, but we don't always agree. No matter what you think we should do, we will take in as much feedback as we can - including *shock* - outside of these forums, and we will make decisions based on all this info.



Okay.... this is going round and round in a circle now. Only the same arguments are coming up, ones that we've already said we'll look at or ones we've turned down. So closing.
 
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