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I think we are being used for something. Through ideologies.

Maelstrom98

Member
I think western society is becoming engineered to make us think and act in certain ways. Do you notice it? When you look around you and really have a good ponder? All these ideologies being spread around. Some of them may seem stupid to you, or even self destructive. Yet, there are people out there capable of an intelligent argument who have been made to believe in one of them. Even you could believe in one of these ideologies. Why? Well think about it. Personally, I think it's to do with the way humans work as a social animal. One example: A lot people get termed as 'sheep' because they follow and do as others do before them. I think it may be to do with not wanting to be singled out, or feeling safer doing something many others have already done before. Anyway, pretty much everyone has done this. This could and does lead people to believing in utter crap, to avoid a bad social situation. Another example: Through media, these ideologies can be pushed gradually over time. By using guilt tactics, fear tactics. Pushing it though fake accounts on Facebook etc. There are a number of reasons really. And I think it all has to do with how we work as humans, and it's easy to exploit since most of us humans like to focus on whatever we are interested in and let the world around us work itself. Maybe you get out and vote sometimes, maybe you even get out and protest. But why do you do it? Why do you believe what you believe? Is it because you TRULY ARE CONVINCED about what you think and have maybe even gone as far as spending hours and hours doing primary and secondary research on the matter to back up your opinion with fact? (etc.) Or is it because you feel important? Is it because you like your opinion being re-enforced by someone close to you or in your social circle? I really think someone in power abusing how we work as social creatures to get us to live in a certain way. A lot of the ideologies that are being spread around now a days are very dangerous, and even suspicious. People are more entitled than they used to be, they rely on the government more for there own lives, when they need to learn to rely on themselves more. People are becoming more overly sexualized and past degeneracy is now being considered 'normal' (this has been described in the past as a way to destroy a society, just sayin) I honestly think you should try and question everything you do/say and believe. Question it and don't let your own ideology or fears get in the way. Be honest with yourself and think about it based on as much open-mindedness as you can. Don't be afraid to think outside the box and consider all possibilities. Since you might have an ideology that looks incredibly down on something that actually isn't as bad as you think.

Anyway, could you tell me what you think? I'd love to hear. I might just be rambling on here, but I had some spare time haha.
 
J

Jonathan Brown

Guest
I'll be the first to comment bro, I strongly believe in what you just said! Looking back on myself growing up is all the fact I need. Now I see it on a daily basis, but just cannot open up anyone else's mind on the topic, as I once was myself lol. We are conditioned from an early age to adulthood, to believe how our parents and those around us believe. And rarely does a person ever question that. I'm one of the luckier ones, able to stop and think, to open up my mind and question. To ask why I even believe the way I do. And I have certainly found some solid answers now. A consequence of this is, now feeling an outcast, I struggle to fit in to any little social group. I must first ask the whys and dissect the group. After gaining that new perspective I always pass. It can be an extremely lonely road to walk, but I don't regret seeing things the way they are now!
Any who, I could go on and on, but I support everything you say. Its good to ask why.
 
J

Jonathan Brown

Guest
Noooo no no no, just giving my observation bruh! Humans are like zombies, get to close and they'll bite. Then you'll end up a zombie.. "p. Being smashed by Daryl.
Wait. You're telling me other people want me to believe things?! WHAT?! NO WAY!! Somebody call the news! Man, you two guys really got it all figured out.




:p
 
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Jonathan Brown

Guest
Isn't it interesting how everyone who says humans are easily manipulated sheep think they're naturally immune to that effect
Ah jeez you're being emotional here. I feel as though this will explode like politics on Facebook.. Never once did I say I was immune to any effect merely stated what I have observed about human behavior. I feel you are insecure about something myself or the OP said. Care to explain?
 

Ninety

Member
lol

Never once did I say I was immune to any effect
I'm one of the luckier ones, able to stop and think, to open up my mind and question. To ask why I even believe the way I do. [...] A consequence of this is, now feeling an outcast, I struggle to fit in to any little social group. [..] It can be an extremely lonely road to walk, but I don't regret seeing things the way they are now!
 
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Jonathan Brown

Guest
Mmmm touche, course that was easily taken out of what I meant. Ok so for one, I didn't mean to sound like I was calling anyone a manipulated sheep, we all are technically in some way or perspective, right? I believe you couldn't possibly understand what I meant unless we were speaking in person. To put simply, If I had not questioned the way I was raised and the environment I grew up in, then I never would have met my wife. 100 percent certain of that. Nor would I have found a love for knowledge either, like I do now. The social group I grew up with doesn't exactly value learning too much. Any who, this is what I meant ok. I could give you many examples of how questioning what I was 'suppose' to be or act led to a more happier and successful life. I didn't mean to sound like I have it all figured out. And naturally immune? Na, only hard ships and many obstacles led to me breaking free from that.

So to summarize, I was simply agreeing with the dude, wasn't trying to start a war on here.
 

Rivo

7014
Wait. You're telling me other people want me to believe things?! WHAT?! NO WAY!! Somebody call the news! Man, you two guys really got it all figured out.




:p
I think people can be made to believe things by exploiting how they work socially. Happens to me all the time. Kinda like slowly or quickly persuading people to live a certain way through peer pressure/guilt/fear/reassurance and so on. I just try and be open to new 'ideas' i guess.... haha
 
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Jonathan Brown

Guest
I don't see any war going on? Thanks for clarifying though, that last post is pretty reasonable and I'd agree with most of it
No problem bro, looking back at my first post I realized one would pretty much have to know me personally to get that. I'm sorry for any confusion! And as mentioning a war, Facebook has ruined me on debating online. America is being sensitive right now on every subject it seems.
 

Roa

Member
Welcome to the biggest problem with religions.
I think its obvious he is referring to mainstream social left, and their knee jerk reaction groups.

We've managed to breed a generation of entitled whiny victims, incapable of making an appeal that doesn't stand solely on emotion and the need to feel virtuous and incrowd everyone. People that cant be reasoned with or convinced of anything. So yeah, I guess you could say a fanatic religion...

The next responsible move is hold colleges accountable to their indoctrination and outbreed these people with rational thinking human beings.
 
I think its obvious he is referring to mainstream social left, and their knee jerk reaction groups.

We've managed to breed a generation of entitled whiny victims, incapable of making an appeal that doesn't stand solely on emotion and the need to feel virtuous and incrowd everyone. People that cant be reasoned with or convinced of anything. So yeah, I guess you could say a fanatic religion...

The next responsible move is hold colleges accountable to their indoctrination and outbreed these people with rational thinking human beings.
And they're locked in a bloody war with an army of dim, myopic, record shatteringly cognitively dissonant racists who are more concerned with hurting brown and/or poor people than helping themselves. So much so that they're happy to hurt themselves (and everyone else) as long as it means the browns, the "snowflakes," and the poor don't get anything they don't think they deserve.

Not a lot of normal people left, unfortunately. Stupid people everywhere!
 
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Roa

Member
And they're locked in a bloody war with an army of dim, myopic, record shatteringly cognitively dissonant racists who are more concerned with hurting brown and/or poor people than helping themselves. So much so that they're happy to hurt themselves (and everyone else) as long as it means the browns, the "snowflakes," and the poor don't get anything they don't think they deserve.

Not a lot of normal people left, unfortunately. Stupid people everywhere!
They're locked in a war with everyone, news outlets, youtubers including their own, families that just want to raise their kids in peace, gamers like pewds, companies that dont share their goals, speakers at colleges that dont share their goals, other groups that feel they can claim to be more oppressed, heaven forbid you have any ideas right of center, let alone not 100% in lock step with them. They can't even survive among themselves. They do it all at the tip of violence, radicalization, slandering others in the name of transphobia, racism, sexism or misogyny. Any label you can give someone to make sure you know they are a divided in-group.

No one gives a 💩💩💩💩 about "brown people', especially not because they're "brown", and if you think that, you aren't listening to what they're saying. Cant tell if that's talking about illegals or the encroaching and uncontrolled spread of radical Islam; one being a country's right to secure, and one being a violent ideology by force of law put in people's head to cause others harm, neither have to do with race. You're listening to what other's are saying about them because controlling the narrative is the only smoking gun they got. And I especially dont think its fair to claim any political position is as 💩💩💩💩ed up as the radical left is of our generation. They have no equal opposition. Just total opposition from anyone who doesn't want their lives micromanaged or shamed for not being on board, which frankly should be anyone who is a self respecting individual.
 
They're locked in a war with everyone, news outlets, youtubers including their own, families that just want to raise their kids in peace, gamers like pewds, companies that dont share their goals, speakers at colleges that dont share their goals, other groups that feel they can claim to be more oppressed, heaven forbid you have any ideas right of center, let alone not 100% in lock step with them. They can't even survive among themselves. They do it all at the tip of violence, radicalization, slandering others in the name of transphobia, racism, sexism or misogyny. Any label you can give someone to make sure you know they are a divided in-group.

No one gives a **** about "brown people', especially not because they're "brown", and if you think that, you aren't listening to what they're saying. Cant tell if that's talking about illegals or the encroaching and uncontrolled spread of radical Islam; one being a country's right to secure, and one being a violent ideology by force of law put in people's head to cause others harm, neither have to do with race. You're listening to what other's are saying about them because controlling the narrative is the only smoking gun they got. And I especially dont think its fair to claim any political position is as ****ed up as the radical left is of our generation. They have no equal opposition. Just total opposition from anyone who doesn't want their lives micromanaged or shamed for not being on board, which frankly should be anyone who is a self respecting individual.
Lmfao at "you're just being swayed by the narrative." I've had Trump supporters scream in my face that "ALL NIGGERS, SPICKS, AND POOR PEOPLE SHOULD JUST DIE!!! "

But yeah, I'm just eating up the librul hype machine. :'D

Judging by the people in my area, the vast majority of Trump supporters are racists. A lot of them are completely open about it.

To be clear, the far left is equally crazy. I alluded to that in my original post, though. :p
 
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Roa

Member
Lmfao at "you're just being swayed by the narrative." I've had Trump supporters scream in my face that "ALL NIGGERS, SPICKS, AND POOR PEOPLE SHOULD JUST DIE!!! "

But yeah, I'm just eating up the librul hype machine. :'D

Judging by the people in my area, the vast majority of Trump supporters are racists. A lot of them are completely open about it.

To be clear, the far left is equally crazy. I alluded to that in my original post, though. :p
Thats anecdotal, and given you think 50% of the population is racist v actually addressing their problems for making that choice, just gives me incentive not to believe you. This thinking is exactly why Trump won, because no one is listening, and when radical left has politicians and companies by the balls, afraid to have their image hurt by slander, a non-politician who actually listens was bound to happen. You don't even acknowledge their is a problem.

You know what isnt anecdotal? colleges refusing to allow speakers a platform with decenting narratives, violent riots on campuses, attacks on trump supporters and people for simply being white. All cataloged online in nice long compilations. Groups like ANTIFA and BAMN who state their mission statement is to bring over rule government by force and violence. Huge groups of people that can organize hundreds of thousands of supporters to target people and places.

They're so delusional, they blame everything on alt-right, a frog and saterization of everything they fear because its the only way to get attention, something they dont even know is making fun of them.

if you expect me to hand wave and put them on the same pedestal as people that simply want to be heard? Saying they're equally crazy is just lazy handwave to pretending it isn't as bad as it is. News flash, its that bad.
 
Thats anecdotal, and given you think 50% of the population is racist v actually addressing their problems for making that choice, just gives me incentive not to believe you.
We're not going to get too far if you start dismissing what I say as lies, lol.
You know what isnt anecdotal?
The KKK? Neo Nazis? White supremacists? Hoo boy, you really got me there. That was a real hard point to respond to.
They're so delusional, they blame everything on....
"Niggers," "spicks," "muzlums."
Damn, that was hard to answer, too. It's like the extremes of both sides are completely stupid, like I said.

It's funny that you complained that my evidence was "anecdotal" when you posted absolutely no stats of your own, though. It's not hard to pick a few examples and say "everyone in this group does this," right?

In the spirit of rigorous debate, I present you with a bit of statistical evidence:

If that's too much of a pain to read, the blue states' (evil snowflakes) average IQs only fall below 100 in two states. The red states' IQs (cool, hardworking good guy MURICANS) are significantly lower than 100 in almost every state, and never manage to go over 100 even once. As we know, being stupid is more likely to make you a level headed, non-racist individual, putting future planning and the well being of the entire country before gross emotions like the dumb smart snowflakes do.:p

Also, not related - I live in one of the smartest states in the country, apparently. Which is....holy 💩💩💩💩. No wonder this country is in trouble. :'D

Also:
You don't even acknowledge their is a problem.
To be clear, the far left is equally crazy. I alluded to that in my original post, though. :p
lol, what?
 
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J

Jonathan Brown

Guest
Lmfao at "you're just being swayed by the narrative." I've had Trump supporters scream in my face that "ALL NIGGERS, SPICKS, AND POOR PEOPLE SHOULD JUST DIE!!! "

But yeah, I'm just eating up the librul hype machine. :'D

Judging by the people in my area, the vast majority of Trump supporters are racists. A lot of them are completely open about it.

To be clear, the far left is equally crazy. I alluded to that in my original post, though. :p
I will agree with you because I come from the same area, the radical dems are a problem no doubt. The small town hicks are a bigger one, and that's coming from a all white, all conservative, laughably 'Christian ' community and family.
 

Roa

Member
We're not going to get too far if you start dismissing what I say as lies, lol.
Im sorry, but its just not an opinion I can respect if all of your political enemies are just what ever label you throw on them, so that's good enough reason not to address them. That's not only lazy, but intellectually dishonest. Most people are not racist. Most people dont even think about race on daily basis... well, I mean, most sane people not on the far left that need it as a point to divide people up. Even if I 100% believed you, Its still completely disingenuous. I'm supposed to assume because one person dropped and obscenity to offend that all trump voters are like that? I can name several non-trump voters that use those words too. What is your point?

The KKK? Neo Nazis? White supremacists? Hoo boy, you really got me there. That was a real hard point to respond to.
Oh brother, here we are with these boogy men ....again

Name one mainstream event the KKK or neo nazis have held to harm and damage other people since this whole trump kick off?....Its a rhetorical question cause the answer is nothing! Simply existing and thinking in a way you dont like isnt enough to consider them a threat. I'm completely baffled how you wont simply denounce the violent and radical left because someone over somewhere else, a group you cant even point to by action. When you make these excuse and say "Oh but these guys did bad stuff sometimes too" just comes off as you endorsing this 💩💩💩💩. One of these groups has a huge voice, uses shame and fear to get people to bend to them, has hundreds of thousands of members. Hint: its not these mythical neo-nazis and kkk.

Let me know when neo-nazis burn down towns, are publicly tolerated attacking people and arnt immediately condemned by mainstream media, are able to not only have full public platform and endorsement in public unimpeded, but are also preventing people from going to work or school. Let me know when neo nazis organize marches to intimidate another group of people. Let me know when someone in KKK branding someone unfit for society gets them removed from their job.

I really need people to stop pretending these are even on the same level. They clearly arnt. Its just deflection from just admitting there is a radicalization problem, and being sure to distance yourself from them.

"Niggers," "spicks," "muzlums."
Damn, that was hard to answer, too. It's like the extremes of both sides are completely stupid, like I said.
You forgot anyone not indoctrinated to be classiest driven sociopaths to the point they are

It's funny that you complained that my evidence was "anecdotal" when you posted absolutely no stats of your own, though. It's not hard to pick a few examples and say "everyone in this group does this," right?
didn't really have time, I was on my way to work. And its not like that isn't true either. It is anecdotal. I'm taking your word on it, mean while all one has to do is not turn a blind eye to headlines across pockets of the media to know what I'm talking about. I mean, unless your bias is that strong that you have completely blocked it out. Are you just choosing to ingore berkly, the ANTIFA and BAMN mobs, riots derived from BLM? The compilations online of mobs violently attacking anyone who dares stand for the legally and democratically justified rule of current office.

I mean, I really could sit here and link stuff all day, but somehow I doubt it would do me any good given you seem to already tune it out cause its not like its hiding anywhere.

It's not hard to pick a few examples and say "everyone in this group does this," right?
Thats a funny statement from someone that expects me to believe an already publicly condemned group like "nazis"(a group of people who dont even get to choose to be apart of nor can anyone define their actions that make them nazis other than "those people I dont agree with who I campare to a party that killed millions. Because panting a bad image and coralating that to genocidal regimens sure is easier than getting my ass handed to me by people I can't possibly stave off in a debate. Oh The shame they must feel!!") and kkk should have more focus put on it, simply for existing, vs putting focus on the actual offending parties.

I mean, I shouldn't have to tell you to condemn violence and stop acting like there are people as bad or worse. I mean, lets just call far left for what they are: terrorist. They use violence and intimidation to control companies, media narrative, and government, all afraid to be put on blast. If they dont get that, they result to over throwing and overwhelming authority, and they are quite public about this, verbally, written on their sites, and obviously physically acting on it.

Literal definition of. Agree or disagree?

In the spirit of rigorous debate, I present you with a bit of statistical evidence:

If that's too much of a pain to read, the blue states' (evil snowflakes) average IQs only fall below 100 in two states. The red states' IQs (cool, hardworking good guy MURICANS) are significantly lower than 100 in almost every state, and never manage to go over 100 even once. As we know, being stupid is more likely to make you a level headed, non-racist individual, putting future planning and the well being of the entire country before gross emotions like the dumb smart snowflakes do.:p

Also, not related - I live in one of the smartest states in the country, apparently. Which is....holy ****. No wonder this country is in trouble. :'D
Oh boy! Yeah, I don't really care about the average IQ of anyone. Is this supposed to qualify something? You know places that are largely democrat are more large rural areas, and so more money, opportunities, colleges, better education, higher density of educated people. Most places that are high density like that also have a more powerful democratic voice because the local small policies are often times better for them, so people are more likely to align to those demographics. And with IQ being only a respect of making cognitive connections, and literally nothing else, this tells me absolutely...

NOTHING!

If you expect me to believe republicans are just dumb and don't know better, that's just a 💩💩💩💩 attitude and not based in reality. You're access to learning, or your ability to learn, what you know, and how you apply what you know has very little to do with IQ. Thanks again for showing how condescending you are in not taking people's problems seriously, lest they be too dumb to deserve a voice, or be heard. Its kinda ironic, cause I would think you would understand the difference and not lazily try to just push this off on an intelligence thing.

I swing more right wing now days, and I have you blast right now. Funny how that works, huh? Not so stupid, am I? btw ->138 IQ

Also, to put the icing on the cake, that sources to a single person's private domain that doesn't even exist anymore, so I'm sure its 100% credible.

Also:
Roa said:
You don't even acknowledge their is a problem.

RichHopelessComposer said:
To be clear, the far left is equally crazy. I alluded to that in my original post, though. :p

lol, what?
The 'problem' I was referring to was you not taking seriously what people have been saying, and you literally just tried to tell me they were just racist, and thats why they do what they do. Now you've added, "they're just dumb" so thats why they do what they do. Both are bull💩💩💩💩 reasons to not consider what they have to say, which is ignoring and deflecting the problem. Your thinking is the reason trump is in office. Not some republican agenda, but a cry to be heard. Why do you think Hillary lost after they projected such a massive win for her? People that voted right-wing were being ignored, and bullied into staying silent till the last moment, and nobody seriously thought that they still had a collective voice. People that normally vote left-wing voted rightwing to avoid feeding and doubling down for the radical left. its this magic thing called cost benefit.

Any and every group has extremist, but you don't see the type of control radical left has on things nowadays, and people simply ignoring it, not condemning it, and making excuses("yeah but...but over there, is neo-nazis!" is especially pissing me off ) for it doesn't fly with me anymore. We undeniably have a movement of radicalization in the US, and its been welcomed with open, or in a lot of cases trembling branded arms. You can be right wing, or left wing. Doesn't bother me. You can be bias for one side, that doesn't bother me if you're honest. You can disagree with what ever policies till your blue in the face and feel like you're talking to a wall, but to sit there and pretend there is a movement, and idealog that is as much of a threat, and as rampant as modern radical left is nothing short of delusional. You can choose to do nothing, turn a blind eye, not talk about it. But dont pretend they have an equal opposition in the political field or anything they do is tolerable, cause Im going to be on that 💩💩💩💩 until the entire ideology is extinguished. I don't plan to make it easy for anyone.

@roytheshort I mean that very literally. The only way to stop degenerative thinking like that is to correct schools and populate them with new students, because the current generation is lost to their ways. They are beyond reason when they take that course of action. They cant be reasoned with even with hard facts, they don't want debate or discussion, and they are willing to use violence and defamation of public image if contested.


You want to know why these guys dont like discussion and use violence and group shaming, putting people under "shameful" labels like Nazi to invalidate opinions? Cause they KNOW they're wrong, wrong in thought, wrong in action, wrong in fact, wrong in morality, wrong side of history. They know they are doing wrong, hurting others, and their ego is so self serving and inflated, that they dont care!

IMHO, there is no place in our world for people like that.

They get off to being victims and telling other people what they are worth according to a subconscious, conspiratorial, invisible hand of racism and sexism that sweeps over every mind.It gives them power over all their inadequacies. Its a badge of honor, and a position of power among peers to be "oppressed". To be somebody in a group of nobodies, who earn their position by being born into some catagory, or by trying to speak for another arbitrary category of people on their behalf of why some system has them down. Power and respect given to themselves, not earned in any actual merit that took effort or work. You want to know why they trade all that for their own immediate gratification?

Its because they're losers.
 
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beli_mawrr

Member
@RichHopelessComposer If I were you I would not bring IQ into this, because IQ has a bad history of being used for racial purposes... if you want to say that statistics show that people in the traditionally red states have a lower IQ than people in the blue states, you're opening yourself up to someone pointing out the statistics about IQ and race... nasty stuff you don't want to get into. AND YOU KNOW WHILE I'M AT IT, I'm going to have to ask for a source for that map. I came up with another pretty map showing pretty much opposite and frankly much more plausible IQ scores... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sHEawhiwhsI/maxresdefault.jpg Sources: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.500.936&rep=rep1&type=pdf
I mean is connecticut really made of supergeniuses?

Now onto the main topic, I see both sides of this moving away from each other in a sad but ironic death spiral... here are we talking about politics again and instantly the left comes in with "Well the conservatives are just stupid" and the right comes in with "Sheeple"... this kind of name calling doesn't help very much.

I consider myself a centrist, a position which now opens me up to mockery and scorn. Consider that. Trying to see both sides is now considered a shameful thing.
 

Roa

Member
Now onto the main topic, I see both sides of this moving away from each other in a sad but ironic death spiral... here are we talking about politics again and instantly the left comes in with "Well the conservatives are just stupid" and the right comes in with "Sheeple"... this kind of name calling doesn't help very much.

I consider myself a centrist, a position which now opens me up to mockery and scorn. Consider that. Trying to see both sides is now considered a shameful thing.
I'm not even "right", I'm just sane and rational, rather centralist myself though Ive gone more right in light of this modern age. I'm just sick of the hand waving and finger pointing. Its gotten to the point where I can barely respect what semblance of opinion with any conviction half the left of center can muster, cause no matter what, they always make excuses for this radical detachment when all I want is people to simply disenfranchise them. The confirmation bias is off the charts. Everytime Im just told "muh phantom nazis. Oh he is literally hitler! Oh he is so stupid!. Oh he is just so racist/ dictionaryword-phobic!" And its the same drivel and dismissal every time without actually having to think or reflect on new information when ever pol comes up. No one has conviction to stand up for their actual beliefs or take what people like myself say that challenges their beliefs seriously. Anytime you bring up nazis or KKK, you've instantly forfeited the argument and any respect for your opinion.

There is no KKK action
No mass nazi movement
Most people in the world arnt racist. Id like to believe most people are good intentioned, and its the rule, not the exception. The left is not some moral arbiter.

We do have an indefensible radical movement bent on dividing people into categories and classicist mindsets, demanding changes with no evidence for their cause, trade equality of quota over equality of opportunity when convenient, using force, mass shaming, and violence against innocent people and legitimate authority, control of mainstream media narrative, public endorsement as justified no matter how far they go.

There is literally never a reason to down play these people. Like I said, don't care what your pol views are, or if you refuse to acknowledge the growing problem or what ever, but don't sit there and claim some bs, egregious, baseless assertion that there is some equivalent or worse action from one of these non-groups, you're just justifying what they do, condoning it, and Id rather people just say nothing at all than do that, vs talk about something they know little to nothing about. Its mental gymnastics I cant even comprehend and a complete lack of self respect for anyone wanting the truth.

Hopeless saying "I dont like the far left BUT far right in the same light.... " sounds a lot less stupid than "I don't feel the far-left is that big of a problem as it stands and I share some common ideas" or even saying nothing at all. The later 2 I can respect.
The first shows me they know there is a problem and are mopping up after it and your intent is already sealed on being deceitful... for some reason. Like they have just given up being honest with themselves when faced with a problem with people they potentially surround themselves in.
Its not like I think all left are like this by far. I just want people to stop defending this 💩💩💩💩 mindset, its sickening and I want honest well thought out opinions so that middle ground can be found. Calling people nazis and "analyzing the nazi threat" doesn't do this, and infact actively prevents it.

The only outcome of that attitude, is more and prolonged violence and fear mongering, more misinformation, and I hold those people accountable for incentivizing creation of this environment. This really frustrates me that this still a problem, let alone something that still needs to be pointed out.

Not to be a dick specifically to hopeless, cause there has been a lot of people on here that do this, but it really pushes my buttons and shows a lack of quality in character.
 
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I'm just 💩💩💩💩posting, Roa. Your long-ass rambling posts are just too exhausting for me to respond to. I always start arguing online, and then realize how pointless it is. ):

I'll leave you with this: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-hate-crimes-20-percent-2016-fueled-election-campaign-n733306

The KKK and friends aren't "boogeymen." You keep on saying the left control the rhetoric in this country, but that's not true at all. The crazies on BOTH sides have been getting louder and louder lately, and it's no good for anyone. A more than 20% increase in hate crimes the last few years is nothing to scoff at. Open racism all over the internet isn't nothing. You keep complaining that the left control the narrative, but then you hand wave away all the hard right hate groups becoming louder and louder as nothing to worry about. This is the cognitive dissonance I was talking about in my first post.

This will be my last post here.


Unless you say something that I feel compelled to answer. In which case, 💩💩💩💩 you in advance for wasting even more of my time. :p

And I had no idea iq tests were part of the asvab. Learn something new every day I guess. 138 is indeed a good score.
 
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Roa

Member
I also just remembered I had 3 of the highest SAT scores out of my school that grading session, passing them all first time, while doing none of my homework XD

My brother has an IQ of 140, but he is autismo as 💩💩💩💩. Asperger. He runs around swinging a mace I bought him, doesnt drive, have a bank, and doesnt want to use email because "no one should have to use those flawed systems."He rides a bike, swings weapons at random people, walks around with 1500 dollars in his pocket, and literally flips out when logging in to pay netflix.

I also by happen chance known a kid who had an IQ of 150 and had stupid 💩💩💩💩ing high scores on SAT, talking missing at most 8 questions between all of them, but couldnt tie his own shoes, and would throw himself on the ground and roll around screaming in a tantrum. This guy was 19 years old.

IQ dont mean 💩💩💩💩 lol. Its just how quickly your brain draws connections.
 
No, iq means something. A lot, actually, as long as you make use of it. I'll spare you my illustrious career, though. It'd be the longest, most obnoxious post on the forum. ;)
 

Roa

Member
I'm just ****posting, Roa. Your long-ass rambling posts are just too exhausting for me to respond to. I always start arguing online, and then realize how pointless it is. ):

I'll leave you with this: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-hate-crimes-20-percent-2016-fueled-election-campaign-n733306

The KKK and friends aren't "boogeymen." You keep on saying the left control the rhetoric in this country, but that's not true at all. The crazies on BOTH sides have been getting louder and louder lately, and it's no good for anyone. A more than 20% increase in hate crimes the last few years is nothing to scoff at. Open racism all over the internet isn't nothing. You keep complaining that the left control the narrative, but then you hand wave away all the hard right hate groups becoming louder and louder as nothing to worry about. This is the cognitive dissonance I was talking about in my first post.

This will be my last post here.
I dont see them active in the same way to the same extent, and people have a real hard time proving to me other wise. Also, idk where everyone is getting that hate crime number from. What country was it? Each country has different deffinitions of hate crimes. Some demographics are more suseptible to being charged with hate crimes over others. How do you know all hate crimes are strictly racially motivated? There are lots of qualifiers. How do you know these hate crimes were only done to minorities and not a larger collective? Some places dont include non minorities or religous victims as hate crimes even if the crime is the same, just because the victims status. What laws were broken that esculated it to a hate crime? A hate crime is a title given to an offence already made. Clearly murder isnt on par with leaving a noose in a tree. 20% next to what total? 6 hate crimes one year, and 8 the next is 20%, is that what we're talking about? Are they media condemned hate crimes, or actual criminal records?

Why are people so afraid to tell the actual numbers? This is a really broad statement when you look at it. There has to be sources for this. And even if it is true, is it still worth worrying about in comparison?

Name a currently active, organized, far right hate group that isnt publicly denounced? Doesn't even have to have 50k people and mainstream attention. Just anything with actual impact on people.


Unless you say something that I feel compelled to answer. In which case, **** you in advance for wasting even more of my time. :p

And I had no idea iq tests were part of the asvab. Learn something new every day I guess. 138 is indeed a good score.
I honestly don't know if it was part of it, but we took them together back to back in the same week, and that combined with my ASVAB score had the army and navy recruiter looking at me. idk how hard each one to get into officer, I know most require a thorough background evaluation and a college degree. I had the opportunity afforded to me before I even finished senior high year, so I must have done something right. My ASVAB was high enough in everything to go pretty much where ever I wanted. I think I had one lower score than the others, but it was still considerably above average, and I dont even remember what it was. I didnt go though. It wasnt something I was willing to commit to. Even talking to recruiters felt a bit too surreal at the time.
 
I dont see them active in the same way to the same extent, and people have a real hard time proving to me other wise.
"Amount of hate spread by hate groups" is much more nebulous and hard to track than "number of blm riots this year," unfortunately. Hate crime numbers are concrete, though. I don't know why you'd doubt their veracity so much. "Fake news!" is hard to argue against, sorry. :p

The numbers are from a study that looked at nine US cities. (There were more than six hate crimes reported in NYC last year, yeah. :p )

It's all in the article. Give it a read.
 

Roa

Member
  • In 2015, 14,997 law enforcement agencies participated in the Hate Crime Statistics Program. Of these agencies, 1,742 reported 5,850 hate crime incidents involving 6,885 offenses. (See Tables 1 and 12.)
  • There were 5,818 single-bias incidents that involved 6,837 offenses, 7,121 victims, and 5,475 known offenders. (See Table 1.)
  • The 32 multiple-bias incidents reported in 2015 involved 48 offenses, 52 victims, and 18 known offenders. (See Table 1.)
Single-bias incidents (Based on Table 1.)
Analysis of the 5,818 single-bias incidents reported in 2015 revealed that:

  • 56.9 percent were motivated by a race/ethnicity/ancestry bias.
  • 21.4 percent were prompted by religious bias.
  • 18.1 percent resulted from sexual-orientation bias.
  • 2.0 percent were motivated by gender-identity bias.
  • 1.3 percent were prompted by disability bias.
  • 0.4 percent (23 incidents) were motivated by a gender bias.
In 2015, law enforcement agencies reported that 4,029 single-bias hate crime offenses were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry. Of these offenses:

  • 52.7 percent were motivated by anti-Black or African American bias.
  • 18.2 percent stemmed from anti-White bias.
  • 9.4 percent were classified as anti-Hispanic or Latino bias.
  • 3.4 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian or Alaska Native bias.
  • 3.4 percent were a result of bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).
  • 3.3 percent resulted from anti-Asian bias.
  • 1.2 percent were classified as anti-Arab bias.
  • 0.1 percent (6 offenses) were motivated by bias of anti-Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.
  • 8.2 percent were the result of an anti-other Race/Ethnicity/Ancestry bias.
This is the peak across the entirety of the US.

Are you sure you want that to be focus? Are you sure you want this to represent your standing argument? Do you truly and honestly think this is equivalent to even one antifa protest? measure the justification of attention in your head and figure out if you're spending energy in the wrong place <_<

Also, kinda weird you're eager to link it to Trump with this line
Trump in recent weeks has more forcefully denounced the anti-Semitic and other racially motivated incidents, notably at the start of his address to Congress on Feb. 28. Trump has also expressed how he was personally affected, since his daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and he has Jewish grandchildren.
Trump denounced the actions of these people, a courtesy I cant even get the left to do for even a fraction of time for their more extreme counter parts. Not that they're responsible for them, but just openly announce they wont accept it.


here is one from 2014: Its actually lower for blacks and whites

In 2014, law enforcement agencies reported that 3,081 single-bias hate crime offenses were racially motivated. Of these offenses:

  • 63.5 percent were motivated by anti-Black or African American bias.
  • 22.8 percent stemmed from anti-White bias.
  • 5.5 percent resulted from anti-Asian bias.
  • 4.6 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian or Alaska Native bias.
  • 3.6 percent were a result of bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).
  • 0.1 percent (4 offenses) were motivated by bias of anti-Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. (Based on Table 1.)
I mean, when a hate crime is as simple as drawing a swastika on a wall. I dont bite

Oh geez

Among the 6,418 hate crime offenses reported:

  • 63.1 percent were crimes against persons.
  • 36.1 percent were crimes against property.
  • The remaining offenses were crimes against society. (Based on Table 2.) (See Data Collection in Methodology.)

breaking it down further
  • 43.1 percent were intimidation.
  • 37.4 percent were simple assault.
  • 19.0 percent were aggravated assault.
  • 0.3 percent consisted of 4 murders and 9 rapes (all 9 rapes were submitted under the UCR Program’s revised definition of rape). (See Methodology for more details about changes in the definition of rape in the UCR Program.)
  • 0.1 percent involved the offense category other, which is collected only in the NIBRS. (Based on Table 2.)
4 murders in a year, 60ish percent were physical confrontation with a person, already in that 60ish percent of hate crimes happening.

That means less than 2000 crimes are committed against people every year. You have a 30 times better chance of being victim of a non-hate crime. Is this still the argument we're going with?


Also, willing to take those active hate group names anytime.

@Ninety given you like to beat this drum too.
 
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Nocturne

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Roa

Member
Getting things back ON topic again... We are indeed being manipulated (and always are), and far more subtly than before (when it was simple fear and the threat of violence or divine justice that manipulated us). Please read:

https://medium.com/join-scout/the-rise-of-the-weaponized-ai-propaganda-machine-86dac61668b
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mg9vvn/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-cambridge-analytica-what-role-brexit-trump
for when its too hard to believe people don't see eye to eye with you...
for when your ideas are so good, that you only could have lost if because your opposition was tricked into believing other wise.

 
@Roa: Racists love Trump. A lot of the things he says and does are just borderline enough to be read either way. Taken together though, they form a pretty clear pattern. I've met plenty of Trump supporters that will happily admit that they and their president are racists. Here's another article for you: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history

For my part, I think our amazing president is probably more of an 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩 than a bonafide racist, but I don't think it's hard to understand why racists find it so easy to project their hopes and dreams onto him.

Scroll down a bit. There's some interesting stuff on the correlation between racial animosity and being a Trump supporter.

About whether spreading hate and stupidity all over the country is better or worse than antifa demonstrations: I'd say it's worse. Again, the far left is completely out of their minds too, though. I just think the far right is going to cause much longer lasting damage.
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
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for when its too hard to believe people don't see eye to eye with you...
for when your ideas are so good, that you only could have lost if because your opposition was tricked into believing other wise.
What the hell are you talking about @Roa? I'm not even American! I make no claim to any ideology except my own, and have said nothing related to anything you've posted so far, and instead am simply replying to the OP to provide evidence to back up HIS claims that we are being manipulated. This has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with DEMONSTRATED social SCIENCE. What, you think the extreme left aren't going to use this kind of social manipulation if they could get into power and had access to it? Of COURSE they will, as will anyone that is in any position of power and wants to maintain it, like the extreme right are doing just now.

Can we stop this stupid US-centric argument about the Drumph? America is not the center of the universe and he is not the most important person in the world. The issue of media manipulation and more extremist governments using it to hang on to their power is a WORLD issue and trumps (;)) these petty disputes about who's the most racist, ignorant and bigoted political supporter on the GMC.
 

Roa

Member
@Roa: Racists love Trump. A lot of the things he says and does are just borderline enough to be read either way. Taken together though, they form a pretty clear pattern. I've met plenty of Trump supporters that will happily admit that they and their president are racists. Here's another article for you: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history

For my part, I think our amazing president is probably more of an ******* than a bonafide racist, but I don't think it's hard to understand why racists find it so easy to project their hopes and dreams onto him.

Scroll down a bit. There's some interesting stuff on the correlation between racial animosity and being a Trump supporter.

About whether spreading hate and stupidity all over the country is better or worse than antifa demonstrations: I'd say it's worse. Again, the far left is completely out of their minds too, though. I just think the far right is going to cause much longer lasting damage.
What does it matter who racist support? They're going to support someone. Clearly it wont be a progressive lol. Thats not a reflection on him though. Also, pretty sure no one can speak for him. Also, not even going to read that article starting in 1970s cause I already know its going to be about the accusations of rental space and claims, that were later dismissed in court meaning they were completely unfounded. You can accuse anyone of anything, doesn't make it true or hold weight.

EDIT: They cant even get the terminlogy right:
Trump launched his campaign calling Mexican immigrants "rapists" who are "bringing crime" and "bringing drugs" to the US. His campaign is largely built on building a wall to keep these immigrants out of the US.
He said illegal drug dealers, illegal boarder crossers, who have no right to be in the US, who are NOT immigrants, bring a varity of crime, and that is beyond all reasonable doubt true. Mexico is a 💩💩💩💩hole of crime. Why do you think so many want to get into America so bad? Ontop of that, a lot of these illegals come from way further south than mexico. Most come from extreme poverty and lawlessness.
He called for a ban on all Muslims coming into the US. He later expanded this ban to include anyone from specific countries, including possibly France and Germany. Once he took office, his "Muslim ban" took the form of an executive order in which he banned anyone from seven Muslim-majority countries from coming into the US for 90 days and banned nearly all refugees for 120 days.
The obama administration already had this list of countries, and it had nothing to do with muslims, but the countries themselves, high risk countries, and allowed people that had proper vesas to get back in. Only one cases was reported for error. Did you not see the bull💩💩💩💩 narrative they are spinning and filling your head with? No one called it Muslim ban other than liberals. And you know what? Its perfectly legal!

When asked at a Republican debate whether all 1.6 billion Muslims hate the US, Trump said, "I mean a lot of them. I mean a lot of them."
again, spin zone. islamic ideology is practice 40% to the law, and that includes justification for violence against their enemies. Extremist made it quite clear America is a target, so when he says A lot.... thats not lying... and certiantly not a race issue when were talking about ideas? More than not dont have a problem with radicalization and most are born into it. Some come to America and get away from it, and those are mild cases, but an overwhelming amount of them consider western civilization worth destroying. You starting to see a pattern here? The only people that mention race are liberal fruit cakes that are absolutely obsessed with this 💩💩💩💩.

What the hell are you talking about @Roa? I'm not even American! I make no claim to any ideology except my own, and have said nothing related to anything you've posted so far, and instead am simply replying to the OP to provide evidence to back up HIS claims that we are being manipulated. This has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with DEMONSTRATED social SCIENCE. What, you think the extreme left aren't going to use this kind of social manipulation if they could get into power and had access to it? Of COURSE they will, as will anyone that is in any position of power and wants to maintain it, like the extreme right are doing just now.

Can we stop this stupid US-centric argument about the Drumph? America is not the center of the universe and he is not the most important person in the world. The issue of media manipulation and more extremist governments using it to hang on to their power is a WORLD issue and trumps (;)) these petty disputes about who's the most racist, ignorant and bigoted political supporter on the GMC.
[/quote]

I never said anything about american though?? The articles you linked dont really hide the idea that they think Trump and Brexit were only possible due to some stupid social media/russian manipulation vs people's own ability to make choices for themselves. Why would talking about brexit make this an american focused topic? Did you notice your own articles point to company's taking the blame/credit for the right-wing paradigm shift? Like these people couldn't possibly do it on their own without some overruling system incentivizing them too? That's the point I'm trying to make, that its completely rubbish example of mass manipulation. I think we all understand media and social influences can get people to sway a certain way <_<

I dont really care if media manipulation is a problem else where either, because here, we actually have the ability to stop it. We dont have an Orwellian government telling use what we can and cannot consume and why should we accept it? Cant even have that courtesy extended to twitter in the Uk.

Should have linked that test where 9 people in on an experiment lied about an object, and the 10th person not in on the test was most likely to lie too just for conformity vs stating the truth. I forgot what that study was called.

....they could get into power and had access to it?.....
..like the extreme right are doing just now.
This part especially though...what? right-wing manipulation >QED;

Idk, I wouldn't say the left could, but do! They have media and companies by the balls by damaging their rep if they dont do everything they say <_< Shame is the name of the game.

Should read up on whats happening toe the BBC right now, its a travesty lmao.
 
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Ninety

Member
Sorry Roa, I saw the tag but I'm sitting this one out. I think we've butted heads one too many times in the last few weeks and betweenness RHC and Nocturne I don't think I have much to add. I don't know if you were trying to preempt an argument or what.
 

beli_mawrr

Member
4 murders in a year, 60ish percent were physical confrontation with a person, already in that 60ish percent of hate crimes happening.

That means less than 2000 crimes are committed against people every year. You have a 30 times better chance of being victim of a non-hate crime. Is this still the argument we're going with?


Also, willing to take those active hate group names anytime.
See Roa, this is what people are talking about. People on the left see these crimes and get scared. They're not likely to be targets of antifa attacks, they're more likely to be the victims of hate crimes. So why would Antifa scare them as much? You're coming from the opposite perspective, that the right-wing attacks aren't as signficant (when people are getting *killed!*) but you're also the "right color" and "right politics" for you to never have to worry about these neo-nazi and white supremacist groups. I find it devoid of empathy. Both sides have their extremists, don't try do downplay "Your sides" extremists.
 

Roa

Member
Sorry Roa, I saw the tag but I'm sitting this one out. I think we've butted heads one too many times in the last few weeks and betweenness RHC and Nocturne I don't think I have much to add. I don't know if you were trying to preempt an argument or what.
Nah, that "rise in hate crimes" thing was used before and so I wanted to see how you would stand by that claim with all the information on the table.

See Roa, this is what people are talking about. People on the left see these crimes and get scared. They're not likely to be targets of antifa attacks, they're more likely to be the victims of hate crimes. So why would Antifa scare them as much? You're coming from the opposite perspective, that the right-wing attacks aren't as signficant (when people are getting *killed!*) but you're also the "right color" and "right politics" for you to never have to worry about these neo-nazi and white supremacist groups. I find it devoid of empathy. Both sides have their extremists, don't try do downplay "Your sides" extremists.
Ok, but prove any of those hate crimes had any political ties at all, let alone right-wing extremism specifically? This is not a reasonable distraction from dealing with the overwhelming radical left problems. The later has insurmountable proof and problems arising from them. Even if you want to believe in some fantasy that all those big bad hate crimes all must be right-wing, it pales in comparison, and honestly being afraid of, and putting so much energy into such numbers is just irrational and deluded. This isnt even a drop in an ocean of problems. They arnt more likely to be attacked by anything other than your common burglar.

Neo-nazis literally dont exist in comparison to anything. Still haven't been given solid proof of a mass movement, that is currently active and has any mainstream appeal that hasn't been denounced.
 
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beli_mawrr

Member
Ok maybe I shouldn't have used your source for hate crimes, but right-wing violence does happen and it does kill people. Here are a few incidents to warm up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack - right wing terrorist stabs 2 while shouting anti-muslim rhetoric. Killed more people than Antifa has in the last 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting - A gunman opened fire on a Planned Parenthood in Colorado springs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting - a gunman opens fire at a church in Charleston, killing 9. Done by a white supremacist.

What I don't want to hear from you is "Well that's not so bad". People died. There are more people killed here than were injured in Antifa or BAMN protests.

So don't try to pretend it never happens or sweep it under the rug. Yes, Antifa and BAMN cause violence at their protests. No one is denying that, that I can see at least. But don't try to claim that white surpemacists aren't killing anyone.
 

Xer0botXer0

Senpai
Hi,

Here's what I think and we can all agree on.

Some truths remain hidden until recognized. What you say may be one of those truths.

Imagine a bag of marbles, tipped over onto a solid surface, many things may occur how ever from tipping the bag over to where the balls eventually reside we have no control over. Why ? because no where in that sentence did I imply it happening.
What does this have to do with countries ?

The bag of marbles example is to someone who has an agenda - unorganized, chaotic.

Now add a person to the scenario, some of the balls break apart as they meet the surface, others may bounce a bit, stay in the air for a while longer before kissing the ground and rolling off. Some may even collide with each other causing their trajectories to differ.. they may roll off the surface due to the momentum they've gained and change direction from differences in the height of the ground, one may get get caught in a crack or roll off the surface.. down a hill into a stream.. eventually the body of water to which the stream leads may leave the marble on the shore where animals quench their thirsts. An animal may swallow it and another say a monkey collect it from the now decomposed feces of said animal eventually leading to a human picking it up. The human decides that there must be more.. since he has not seen such a thing, it must be man made. He goes out to collect them and finds a few more. The guy with the bag sets off, not wanting to see these marbles again. Back at the town he finds a crowd gathered around a man with an object glimmering under the sunlight clenched at the tip of his fingers, holding it out for others to see. The guy staggers back before collecting his thoughts and moves towards this scene and a mix of emotion arises as he pushes onlookers aside to grab the poor farmer who recognized the value in his new found marbles by the neck.

These men acted by how they feel, and they way they feel is made up of an intricate composition. The farmer realized an income that his cattle and crops may not bring. He also made a wind of the guys serenity whom didn't wish to see them again, you see these belonged to someone who mattered to him. Letting go of those allowed him to free up his mind, if only for that path home.


Had the farmer not required money he would not have needed to sell those when villagers showed interest, then again he would not have lived the live he does. Some constructs of society are more powerful than others, being a composition of peoples lives for many centuries. What I want to go are influences less strong, how about what governed an intervention between these two men, a sheriff ? had people not created a system of government, or a hierarchical board with a policing department, anyone may have intervened, there many have been many more consequences. People would take up their own action. This is freedom of self expression, this is also anarchy towards the ability for others to do what they wish.

Let's bring it towards closer present times of vcr and television with advertisements, you may still see that farmer with his marbles on the screen. Only now you are using money to see what's being sold before possibly buying. I'd also like to introduce your point here @Maelstrom98. Your truth as we know occupies many a place in our lives, but thank the lord for it. And only once you're thankful may you curse it for you see if people had no agendas, and that is what it boils down to, agenda, action, opposition or support. In the sense of being used, then we'd have anarchy, which is great you see more freedom, but it's also bad .. too much and we'd have disorder. People can only understand x much at a time, and over a period of their life times. Order makes sense of things, so people may stick to the highest order. And be allowed to branch down from there. That's where anarchy reigns, where humans get creative. But remember the order was man made and within this order there is correction made over time as the tools are passed down.

So to make matters simple, we must accept order created by other peoples agendas, and below those we have freedom of choice. We must because doing otherwise would mean we wish to create new order, from one country to anew. As there is no more room left for any more countries if you wish to oppose higher orders you would have to go up the system, or understand the system well enough to work beside(not alongside) it and create your own, when people down in the hierarchy see this new system they may react well to it or badly. At every moment there is choice, use what there is as it brings light to your agenda, or create something new because it does not.

Are you talking about the problems in the world, the elections, candidates, their promises, think back at to what our choices are. A few candidates, each with the same amount of power provided by the government which was created by the agendas of predecessors some replacing others as a man didn't agree with how things were. So one president may not agree and make changes within his power, but he too has the power to create anew and not conform to what there is already. he may use some of the offices within the hierarchy because he agrees with their goals. The main thing here is there are hidden truths that even presidents have not recognized, so they can not make the promises nations need.

Personally I'm going with my own agenda, which are the agendas of many others, but not the mainstream agendas or rather popular ones which are suppose to yield better results, you can get the same results with various means how ever the journey towards those results may differ, and people like to create their own journeys. Mine doesn't involve getting involved with politics or bigger matters that regard government, the ads I see on tv, or anything thats agenda doesn't seem on par with what I'd prefer. If I were in that industry sure I'd go about making a change there, raising an idea gathering like minded brothers and over throwing what others have created for the better. But I'm not, and what I can do then is change to a different subscriber!

I don't feel sorry for people who watch too much television, as an example it may be bad in some cases, due to their selection of shows or rather that they'd spend their time before a movie instead of some other activity. Because at every moment they are choosing what they want to do. And that to me is fine, whether good or bad.

Get this, Hitler once wanted every single car in Germany to be a ford beetle, white in fact.
Choosing which car I can drive and the color of it too! ? that's personal. That's where you get involved.
But again thank the lord that monster trucks aren't allowed on the road.

One last thing since I've written the start of a book here, it helps to work with those who in your eyes are trying to do good, for themselves, for others, for animals, for the planet. Purpose can pierce through even the toughest armor, the armor of the opposition. Which of course is what we'd be against then. Therefore it matters more to work on doing good than preventing the bad. The one cancels out the other.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
And just to add more fuel to the bonfire:

http://resistancereport.com/news/white-terrorists-killed-more-this-week/
https://theintercept.com/2017/05/31...ght-terrorists-pose-a-clear-danger-to-us-all/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-islam-white-supremacists-study-a7805831.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...lamist-extremists_us_594c46e4e4b0da2c731a84df
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/convicted-terrorists-citizens/

On a broader note, just because people don't profess to belong to a GROUP, doesn't mean there isn't a mass movement. These individuals are a mass movement, and if you care to look at the statistics, hate crimes across the world due to right-wing sentiment have been steadily increasing, in particular against the LGBT community.

EDIT: Maybe read this from the UN:

Statement by UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination

Just in case you don't want to read that I'll quote the appropriate part:

And across the world, the politics of division and the rhetoric of intolerance are targeting racial, ethnic, linguistic and religious minorities, and migrants and refugees. Words of fear and loathing can, and do, have real consequences.

- UK Government statistics showed a sharp increase in reported hate crime in the weeks following the 23 June 2016 referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union, in which immigration was a dominant issue.

- FBI figures indicated a rise in hate crimes nationwide in 2015, a year when the US presidential election campaign – a campaign that often focused on the supposed threats posed by migrants, Hispanics and Muslims – began in earnest. Data collected by the Southern Poverty Law Center indicates that migrants, African-Americans and Muslims were the most affected by hate crimes in the immediate aftermath of the election, although full data for 2016 is not yet available.

- In Germany in 2016, there were approximately 10 attacks a day on migrants and refugees, a rise of 42 per cent on 2015.

- Cases of reported hate crimes increased more than three-fold in Spain from 2012, reaching 1,328 in 2015.

- Italy saw reported hate crimes rise from 71 to 555 in 2015;

- Finland experienced a doubling of reported hate crimes from 2014 to 2015, when 1,704 incidents were reported.
 
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beli_mawrr

Member
Ok, @Roa Just brought up a good point in private conversation. While it's true that there are attacks by both right-wing and left-wing parties, the political momentum seems to be brushing off the left-wing violence, speech, and censorship (often even tacitly condoning it!) while the right-wing terrorism (RIGHTLY!) is condemned en masse. So, while we acknowledge that both sides need to be fixed, currently the only action is against one party. I condemn violence in all forms, but I can't help but see people silently being cheered on for punching nazis and the like.

Antifa and BAMN are either ignored, glossed over, or given what I'm calling the "Plaxus treatment." IE "They don't really matter" by most news medias and many people I know.

Social media branches such as facebook disproportionately target right-wing media with their algorithms. Examples are Google, Facebook, and Reddit, all of who silently demote right-wing ideology while promoting left-wing ideology.

Schools are kicking people out for having the wrong ideas or expressing their politics in the wrong way. Usually it's the right-wingers who get the brunt of it.

White people are being forced out of classes they paid for because black people are scared of trump.

Mobs have and probably are attacking white people just for being white.

Racist hiring quotas and affirmative action is a good example of modern racism.

Sexist affirmative action policies are dropped when it's discovered they help men more than women

All these things are happening, and give the people on the right, men, and white people cause for concern, but are pretty much taboo to talk about. What about right-wing terrorism is there to condemn that we haven't already?
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
So, while we acknowledge that both sides need to be fixed, currently the only action is against one party. I condemn violence in all forms, but I can't help but see people silently being cheered on for punching nazis and the like.
While pacifism is a noble goal (and I am a pacifist myself), sometimes violence does good although it pains me to say so. Violence against Nazis doesn’t endanger democracy, it preserves it. It’s difficult to argue that the use of violence by the Allies during World War II was not successful in ending the Third Reich, so there is a definite precedent of cases where the use of violence is justified. Richard Spencer getting punched in the face is not only immensely satisfying, but sends a message to his entire movement that people are willing to fight them. Liberals, in this case meaning anyone who hates Nazis, cannot let a nostalgia for a non-existent time of peace, prosperity and debate get in the way of progress. Allowing these people to openly espouse anti-semitism and racism and whatever horrible things they choose to endorse risks making these views acceptable in public discourse. That’s not a concession I’m willing to make. We can’t let racists use liberal ideals of free speech to espouse their hateful message. If it takes a bit of lawlessness to make progress, then it’s simply following in a long tradition of law-breaking... Keep in mind, that the right are ATTACKING the very principles that make us human - compassion, tolerance, understanding, equality - and as such, it's perfectly okay for people to DEFEND themselves.
 

beli_mawrr

Member
Well see the problem is Richard Spencer is not an actual Nazi. I'm trying to parse this in a way that makes sense. Personally, while I find racist ideology distasteful and hurtful, ultimately I feel like it's something that doesn't hurt anyone. I mean it does on a superficial emotional level, but the issue is when actual harm comes of it. Sticks and stones, and so on. If someone called me a cracker I'd tell them to go away but ultimately move on with my life. If they called me a cracker and pushed me to the ground, that's a different story.

What I'm saying is that Richard Spencer does the equivalent of calling people crackers. It's annoying, it's rude, and it's annoying, but it's not violent. It doesn't deserve physical retaliation.

When someone says "It's OK to punch nazis" I feel what the truth of this means is "If someone is going to cause or is causing the next holocaust, by all means, take them the hell down." And I agree. But then some make it mean "Well this guy is racist, so it's OK to beat him up." which then can be turned into anything. I mean I've been called a nazi before and I sure as hell am not one. Is it OK to beat me up? If not, what if Richard Spencer says he's not a Nazi? You see the issue here?

That being said, there ARE groups on the left which are causing these violent, racist, sexist incidents, as detailed in the previous post I made, which I see you glossed over like I promised would happen. I call this "Pulling a Plaxus". But it's not OK to beat them up. Why is that?
 
Z

zendraw

Guest
bunch americans talkin bout politics and conspiracies. :D classic
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
That being said, there ARE groups on the left which are causing these violent, racist, sexist incidents, as detailed in the previous post I made, which I see you glossed over like I promised would happen. I call this "Pulling a Plaxus". But it's not OK to beat them up. Why is that?
I didn't gloss it over, I ignored completely it because it's an irrelevant argument. Of COURSE there are groups on the far left that do the same, but statistically they are inconsequential. The world is not in danger from these groups and their attitudes, people are not dying because of their propaganda, they are not in positions of power over the mass media, or the governments. When they are, I can assure you I will fight them as vehemently as I fight the far right.
 
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