I miss the advanced forum

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Zerb Games

Member
@YellowAfterlife @icuurd12b42

Perhaps why not have a middle ground? Make a thread where you post the link to your thread, and then perhaps the guy that runs the form will rate whether or not your thread is advanced say 1-10. SO a noob user could still post, but get a rating of 1/10 and hopefully a reply. While power users can still have a place to pool this.

or instead of one to ten, just a advanced, mediate, or not advanced. So it's less personal.

MY SOLUTION IN PRACTICE: https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/the-home-of-the-advanced-thread.21055/

Is this allowed @Nocturne?
 
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Perseus

Not Medusa
Forum Staff
Moderator
Perhaps why not have a middle ground? Make a thread where you post the link to your thread, and then perhaps the guy that runs the form will rate whether or not your thread is advanced say 1-10. SO a noob user could still post, but get a rating of 1/10 and hopefully a reply. While power users can still have a place to pool this.
That won't be very effective. What might be an advanced topic for you to discuss might not be advanced for others. Many beginners are likely to post in the topic just because they think their topic discusses an "advanced" concept and should gain the attention of hardcore users. Such a topic would be difficult to maintain as it might get flooded with replies by people asking for help with their issues. Not to mention that it would be much harder to spot and many hardcore users won't be interested in a topic that links to other topics which are deemed "advanced" by others -- again the topics linked to might not be advanced for them.

I've removed your topic from public view as I feel it might create confusion. Also, I don't like the "post a link to your topic and I'll rate it" tone of the topic. So unless the worth of such a system gets proved, let's just avoid creating abrupt and random topics. Feel free to discuss how it could be useful here, though.
 

Zerb Games

Member
That won't be very effective. What might be an advanced topic for you to discuss might not be advanced for others. Many beginners are likely to post in the topic just because they think their topic discusses an "advanced" concept and should gain the attention of hardcore users. Such a topic would be difficult to maintain as it might get flooded with replies by people asking for help with their issues. Not to mention that it would be much harder to spot and many hardcore users won't be interested in a topic that links to other topics which are deemed "advanced" by others -- again the topics linked to might not be advanced for them.

I've removed your topic from public view as I feel it might create confusion. Also, I don't like the "post a link to your topic and I'll rate it" tone of the topic. So unless the worth of such a system gets proved, let's just avoid creating abrupt and random topics. Feel free to discuss how it could be useful here, though.
Rood, but alright. I still think it would be a good thing to have a general place to just post your thread if you do think it is advanced.
 

Perseus

Not Medusa
Forum Staff
Moderator
Rood, but alright. I still think it would be a good thing to have a general place to just post your thread if you do think it is advanced.
Didn't mean to sound derogatory. My apologies if that came across as rude.

Anyways, take that as an opinion, not as a final say on the matter. I'm not against having a topic for linking to hardcore discussions, I'm just not particularly conviced how the topic could be useful without confusing new users. That aside, the topic was hastily written with no clear guidelines to demonstrate how it would have worked. Had you discussed it with rest of the members first, you would have ended up with a better way to handle the topic. The GMC has enough room for experimentation and the staff appreciates every initiative. So if you want to undertake the job of starting such a topic, that's fine. But we could perhaps improve the idea and suggest changes if you would have just discussed it here first. The topic was too vague to be helpful at this point and I don't see how it would have worked without confusing others.

Moreover, the topic would have required frequent bumps to remain visible on account of the high traffic in the Programming forum -- and frankly speaking, pinning it won't have helped either. There's a character limit and a limit on how many links can be put in a post, so it would have been very difficult to keep track of all the topics. No doubt it will get messy really soon. Let's just discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the idea you proposed first, so that it is easier for the administration to decide if such a topic is worthwhile.
 

Zerb Games

Member
Didn't mean to sound derogatory. My apologies if that came across as rude.

Anyways, take that as an opinion, not as a final say on the matter. I'm not against having a topic for linking to hardcore discussions, I'm just not particularly conviced how the topic could be useful without confusing new users. That aside, the topic was hastily written with no clear guidelines to demonstrate how it would have worked. Had you discussed it with rest of the members first, you would have ended up with a better way to handle the topic. The GMC has enough room for experimentation and the staff appreciates every initiative. So if you want to undertake the job of starting such a topic, that's fine. But we could perhaps improve the idea and suggest changes if you would have just discussed it here first. The topic was too vague to be helpful at this point and I don't see how it would have worked without confusing others.

Moreover, the topic would have required frequent bumps to remain visible on account of the high traffic in the Programming forum -- and frankly speaking, pinning it won't have helped either. There's a character limit and a limit on how many links can be put in a post, so it would have been very difficult to keep track of all the topics. No doubt it will get messy really soon. Let's just discuss the advantages and disadvantages of the idea you proposed first, so that it is easier for the administration to decide if such a topic is worthwhile.
The rood is usually seen as a joke considering I misspelled it.
 

icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
As far as I know, yes. I usually make a wrapper script (with extra calls to set up arguments) anyway, since asking the user to not forget to pass buffer_get_address instead of the buffer itself does not always work either.
I'm considering to switch to always using a buffer to pass data next time around... you only need to define the function with one argument.... and you can shove multiple arguments in the buffer

calling dll functions multiple times to pre-set arguments, at least in the old days, would severely impeded on the frame rate.

To others regarding suggestions on the advance forum...

I'll re-iterate... I spent most my time on the gmc, and I think a few others did, browsing the advance topic for cool stuff first, having interesting discussions. and then I would do a round of answering newby questions.

Just coming in to answer newby questions, navigating through tens of pages to find something interesting does not cut it for me. I used to post 20-30 times a day... now it's something like 5 times a week.
 

gmx0

Member
One thing about the advanced forums that made it work, if I remember correctly, was it limited the subject areas you can talk about. For example, threads about 3D and multiplayer were only limited to the advanced forums.

There's a lot less focus on 3D for GM nowadays, with the advent of Unity and all that. Though some subject limiting would still work if ever reimplemented again.
 

Sandro

Member
I'd have to disagree on the "everyone thinks it's advanced" point. Most people come here and are all "Oh, I'm such a noob, how do I do [ridiculously complicated thing]?" I'd think if anything we'd end up having the issue of folks NOT posting in the Advanced forum.

EDIT: I do like the PM idea, it's enough effort to seek and PM a mod that you know they aren't gonna do it lazily.
Users not posting in the advanced forum is not really an issue. 99% of the time it's not advanced, and when it is other users can request a mod to move it. Since this would be basically the same as asking a mod in the first place, what's the difference?
 
Y

Yourself

Guest
I'd have to disagree on the "everyone thinks it's advanced" point. Most people come here and are all "Oh, I'm such a noob, how do I do [ridiculously complicated thing]?" I'd think if anything we'd end up having the issue of folks NOT posting in the Advanced forum.

EDIT: I do like the PM idea, it's enough effort to seek and PM a mod that you know they aren't gonna do it lazily.
It was a bit more subtle than that. It wasn't that the users themselves thought they were advanced. It more like since they couldn't solve whatever problem they were stuck on, they assumed it was advanced and posted there.

Really the problem was it was impossible to define and actually enforce what was advanced and what wasn't.
 

Ethanicus

Ethan L!
Couldn't an "Advanced" prefix also work? It'd be easily editable and remove the need for a whole second forum.
 

icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
@Yourself is Back!!
It was a bit more subtle than that. It wasn't that the users themselves thought they were advanced. It more like since they couldn't solve whatever problem they were stuck on, they assumed it was advanced and posted there.

Really the problem was it was impossible to define and actually enforce what was advanced and what wasn't.
It was not really a huge deal to have users post what they thought was something advanced; most times we would simply tell them... The main deal though was the moderation; moving those questions, few as they were, back to the Q&A forum or closing the topic, which, TBH, was not something I would have deemed necessary given the fact that an erroneous post was usually dealt with by the main posters in that forum.

I think at issue was more the stringent style of moderation in that time.
 

YellowAfterlife

ᴏɴʟɪɴᴇ ᴍᴜʟᴛɪᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀ
Forum Staff
Moderator
@YellowAfterlife @icuurd12b42

Perhaps why not have a middle ground? Make a thread where you post the link to your thread, and then perhaps the guy that runs the form will rate whether or not your thread is advanced say 1-10. SO a noob user could still post, but get a rating of 1/10 and hopefully a reply. While power users can still have a place to pool this.

or instead of one to ten, just a advanced, mediate, or not advanced. So it's less personal.

MY SOLUTION IN PRACTICE: https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/the-home-of-the-advanced-thread.21055/

Is this allowed @Nocturne?
Do you at all learn from occurring events or..?
 

Zerb Games

Member
Do you at all learn from occurring events or..?
Hey bro. I was told I could do it.

@Ragarnak who originally took down my thing said that I could start a new one and advised me on what I did that he thought would be problematic. I would send a PM pic, but privacy and what not. He can clarify if he wishes to do so.

Lol, yeah I figured something like that would happen, hence why I put the: "moderators feel free to take 'er down ):..." I revised it to a point where I thought it would be acceptable and not problematic. I figured the thread would remain small enough to where it would just eventually die, and myself and others could see the results, then decide whether or not this would be a good idea moving forward.

Should I make a 3rd one. This is a joke... Don't get angry at me master Yellow D:
 
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Perseus

Not Medusa
Forum Staff
Moderator
Ragarnak said:
You're free to do so. You don't need my permission to start a topic. But as I said earlier in the "I miss the advanced forum" thread, it might confuse users, so until that happens, the staff won't intervene. But that doesn't mean that other moderators won't take an action if they find it against the community's interests. So make sure that the functioning of the topic is clear enough. Also, don't expect the moderating staff to clean up the topic if it runs out of hand. We might consider doing that once the topic starts serving its purpose pretty well, though. Just don't throw things together hastily before pondering how it would actually work.
Okay, I made myself clear enough and warned you about the actions that others might take. In fact, had I seen it before Mike locked it, I'd have taken it down myself. You had a chance to discuss it with others and find a more organized way, but you've blown it. This one was more confusing than the last one. But now that an administrator has spoken up, let's just avoid creating topics whatsoever.
 

Zerb Games

Member
Okay, I made myself clear enough and warned you about the actions that others might take. In fact, had I seen it before Mike locked it, I'd have taken it down myself. You had a chance to discuss it with others and find a more organized way, but you've blown it. This one was more confusing than the last one. But now that an administrator has spoken up, let's just avoid creating topics whatsoever.
Yes, again hence why I added the "moderators feel free to take it down," bit. I was very aware about the actions other's may take. I thought the topic was pretty clear and straight forward, post your thread, reply in the threads not the "MEGA THREAD," I knew other's may take action. I spent a good amount of time on it I felt, I tried to make it straight to the point with a white list rather than a blacklist to avoid confusion.

All that I was saying in the reply was that you gave me the go ahead to try to reform what I had done and that's just what I did.

"Please only post your thread links, all other replies go in their respective thread." I thought that was pretty straight to the point and would not confuse anyone. I just added filler around it with what my intentions were. I really don't understand how this could be confusing to any user, I do however see issues with it like people who are posting things that would be considered easy, but that's not up to me to decide.

I took your warnings. I knew exactly what my intentions were with it and thought about it for quite some time considering the time frame in which I took to finally put this in place that should be somewhat evident.
 

rIKmAN

Member
There are 2 pages of discussions about an "advanced" forum, and I'm yet to see anyone actually have an issue that would require it.

Noc has said previously he is against it because of exclusion of other users etc, so if advanced users want to get together to discuss their advanced topics that mere mortals would not understand, just throw up a forum on some webspace and send invites to all users who are worthy of admittance - webspace is cheap and forum software is free.

Otherwise just make a post, put "[ Advanced ]" in the title if that's what floats your boat, then let the people who are able to understand and help you with your problem chime in when they can.

I'm not against an "advanced" forum personally, there are always going to be beginners, intermediates and experts in any subject that has a forum, and I think every user should have access to each forum for learning purposes (we were all beginners once right?) but I also understand an advanced topic might get buried amongst the "help me pls" and "how do I make my man move" threads because they will receive less replies just by the nature of the thread.

I wouldn't class myself as an advanced user of GMS, I'm probably bordering intermediate/advanced in some other languages though and so I would still like to read the contents of an advanced forum for learning and studying other coders methods and problem solving.

It's a tough one and you can't make everyone happy, although if enough advanced users wanted something like this maybe some of the actual well known "advanced" users could work with Noc and they could moderate the forum themselves on a trial basis or something similar, so that the mods aren't wasting time vetting posts etc.

*shrugs*
 
A

Amy

Guest
Not having an Advanced Forum definitely solves all of the potential problems and headaches of having one. But on the other hand, having one at least allows people to go where they can hopefully more easily find advanced topics that otherwise might be harder for them to find among the other forums. Hmm, tough decision... ;)
 

TheSnidr

Heavy metal viking dentist
GMC Elder
The old advanced forums were fun, even though I didn't participate much! I learned a lot of what I know today from Slayer64, Tepi, Ragarnak, Yourself and many others' posts there. I'd love to have somewhere to discuss more complex programming problems than "how to make the player go up a slope". The lack of such a place makes these forums pretty uninteresting imo. But I remember the organizational mess it was on the old forums!
 

Ethanicus

Ethan L!
Yeah, I think just bringing back up "it didn't work last time" can't be used as an argument. There are reasons it didn't, and they can be fixed.
 

FrostyCat

Member
Instead an "advanced" forum, I think a better idea would be a section dedicated to independent research articles. This is the kind of topic I enjoyed the most from the old advanced section, and is also most conducive to learning about new subject areas.

Over the Christmas holidays, I took time off to study the application and implementation of MCTS on GMS. It's not a tutorial since I didn't plan on holding anyone's hands, especially not for those idiots who'd make a fuss about maps and lists being "difficult". But it's not exactly a question neither because I already proved it works. It had nowhere to go but two minor entries on Creations.

I set out on exploring MCTS because nobody else has published usage of it in GMS before, but for any other professional language the literature is already well-established. Other examples of these GM-specific dead zones include:
  • Pretty much any area involving AI in non-action games (GM has too heavy a bias towards casual and action games, in my opinion)
  • Anything past first-year university computer science or math
  • Techniques for developing extensions on native GM exports
  • Development of non-conventional GML techniques and their applications
The GMC currently operates in a way that pigeonholes members into either helpdesk monkeys or product makers. That can and should change.

Let's bring back a platform where users can prove themselves with scholarship, not just answering rookie queries and selling games. The rule is to start with a question/topic, then come up with some answer yourself and present technical arguments. Anyone who can't is objectively not advanced.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
especially not for those idiots who'd make a fuss about maps and lists being "difficult".
Just because someone finds something difficult does not make them an "idiot". With phrases like that coming from someone advocating a space for advanced discussion, all you are doing is making me think that it wouldn't be a good idea, and predisposing me to dismiss everything you say afterwards.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
Instead an "advanced" forum, I think a better idea would be a section dedicated to independent research articles. This is the kind of topic I enjoyed the most from the old advanced section, and is also most conducive to learning about new subject areas.

Over the Christmas holidays, I took time off to study the application and implementation of MCTS on GMS. It's not a tutorial since I didn't plan on holding anyone's hands, especially not for those idiots who'd make a fuss about maps and lists being "difficult". But it's not exactly a question neither because I already proved it works. It had nowhere to go but two minor entries on Creations.

I set out on exploring MCTS because nobody else has published usage of it in GMS before, but for any other professional language the literature is already well-established. Other examples of these GM-specific dead zones include:
  • Pretty much any area involving AI in non-action games (GM has too heavy a bias towards casual and action games, in my opinion)
  • Anything past first-year university computer science or math
  • Techniques for developing extensions on native GM exports
  • Development of non-conventional GML techniques and their applications
The GMC currently operates in a way that pigeonholes members into either helpdesk monkeys or product makers. That can and should change.

Let's bring back a platform where users can prove themselves with scholarship, not just answering rookie queries and selling games. The rule is to start with a question/topic, then come up with some answer yourself and present technical arguments. Anyone who can't is objectively not advanced.
Oh i like this idea!
A section where you can share technique and research.
If you figured something out, or implemented a particularly complex algorithm in GM. Perhaps even making performance comparisons between multiple techniques and write it up in a sort of blog format.
That would work very well.

I agree, would love to see this be a thing! Browsing it will be most fun.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
Just because someone finds something difficult does not make them an "idiot". With phrases like that coming from someone advocating a space for advanced discussion, all you are doing is making me think that it wouldn't be a good idea, and predisposing me to dismiss everything you say afterwards.
Yes but once you look passed the elitism, its not such a bad idea!

I don't think this would have to be restricted to advanced things either!
If someone wants to write up an article on how they used list and maps, then they could. But it would be a great place for people to share their discoveries and research in GM.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
If someone wants to write up an article on how they used list and maps, then they could. But it would be a great place for people to share their discoveries and research in GM.
And we're back to the same issue as always... How should such a forum be run? Who decides what gets posted there? :p

I do actually like the idea of an advanced section, and so far the idea that I've liked the most is for a forum that is closed to everyone initially and that members have to request permission to post there (but anyone and everyone will get permission and can post at least once). It would be easier to moderate and is also less "elitist", as everyone can enter if they choose, but the fact they have to actually choose to enter will hopefully make people think twice before actually posting any topics. And even if someone posts something simple, it would only be a case of moving the topic...

Look, let me talk to the rest of the admins and we'll see what happens. I can't promise anything, and we decided when we changed forums that we would only add new forums if there was a definite need for a new forum. I'm not sure this forum is necessary, and if we do it, we will only keep it if we see it getting used...
 

Perseus

Not Medusa
Forum Staff
Moderator
It would be easier to moderate and is also less "elitist", as everyone can enter if they choose, but the fact they have to actually choose to enter will hopefully make people think twice before actually posting any topics.
What if instead of granting the permission to whoever asked for it, we keep the forum closed for members to post in and move topics upon request if deemed suitable by the staff? Given that the community might be atually interested in a forum that doesn't need to be a pool for complex " problems ", it shouldn't be too difficult to decide what goes in and what doesn't. Perhaps we can filter out the problems to the Programming forum and keep the interesting discussions that hardcore users might be interested in. But telling what's a complex problem won't be difficult either.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the " move topics afterwards " idea. One might get the permission and flood fill the forum with topics that don't belong to it. Revoking his permission will be another hassle.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I feel that would require more work from staff than just letting people get access and post... I would expect the people that use the topic to report any topics that don't appear appropriate... This seems the easiest and fairest solution for all involved, imho, although I would have no issue with staff moving topics into that forum if they deem them of interest.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
And we're back to the same issue as always... How should such a forum be run? Who decides what gets posted there? :p
What?
I think you misread my post.
I said anyone could post there.
If they want to post about lists, they should be able to.
 

gmx0

Member
I set out on exploring MCTS because nobody else has published usage of it in GMS before, but for any other professional language the literature is already well-established.
I was actually googling around for that particular algorithm if it ever was implemented in GM. Sadly, you are right it has not been published before in GMS or (more likely) that it exists in an older version of GM and/or buried in the search engine indexes further than one could see.
 
Y

Yourself

Guest
And we're back to the same issue as always... How should such a forum be run? Who decides what gets posted there? :p

I do actually like the idea of an advanced section, and so far the idea that I've liked the most is for a forum that is closed to everyone initially and that members have to request permission to post there (but anyone and everyone will get permission and can post at least once). It would be easier to moderate and is also less "elitist", as everyone can enter if they choose, but the fact they have to actually choose to enter will hopefully make people think twice before actually posting any topics. And even if someone posts something simple, it would only be a case of moving the topic...

Look, let me talk to the rest of the admins and we'll see what happens. I can't promise anything, and we decided when we changed forums that we would only add new forums if there was a definite need for a new forum. I'm not sure this forum is necessary, and if we do it, we will only keep it if we see it getting used...
What about a blog system? Like, with a forum you're inevitably going to run into posts competing with each other for space in the topic listing. And if we're looking for article-style sorts of topics, a forum is the wrong way to go, since forums focus on discussion. A blog post can have comments, but the focus is on the article, not the conversation.

This way there's no issue of attempting to categorize content or limit who can post. Everyone can post things they think are useful and if others like that content, they can share it in questions posted to the forums. If you want to give things more visibility, the staff could occasionally "feature" a blog post that maybe deserves more attention.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting? That YYG sets up an external blog site? That we have a "blogs" forum? People that write gamedev articles can already share them on the GMC in the Game Design forum, so we do have a forum for that unless you are wanting something else?
 
This thread reminds me of the time someone argued against devlogs for a year because "nobody wants them" and "they wouldn't work on this forum," despite half the forum saying they wanted them. Then he quietly implemented them when the new forum opened. And it's one of the most interesting subforums we have.

I'll never understand all this pushback against trying new things. There's obviously a demand for it. If the forum ends up sucking (it won't), just delete it a week later. What's the big deal? It's fifteen minutes of work, lol.
 
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icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
This thread reminds me of the time someone argued against devlogs for a year because "nobody wants them" and "they wouldn't work on this forum," despite half the forum saying they wanted them. Then he quietly implemented them when the new forum opened. And it's one of the most interesting subforums we have.

I'll never understand all this pushback against trying new things. There's obviously a demand for it. If the forum ends up ducking (it won't), just delete it a week later. What's the big deal? It's fifteen minutes of work, lol.
That's basically my motto. Stop Thinking, Start Doing. I never understood how people can argue for days on end about something when it would take minutes to try and see.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I'll never understand all this pushback against trying new things. There's obviously a demand for it. If the forum ends up ducking (it won't), just delete it a week later. What's the big deal? It's fifteen minutes of work, lol.
I'm not saying there is no demand, and I'm quite happy to go ahead and create an advanced forum (if YYG/PlayTech/other Admins give permission). I've already stated this and it's being discussed. I just don't quite understand Yourself's suggestion...
 

Storyteller

Member
An "Articles" sub-forum, or even a tag/prefix 'Article' for posts in the tutorials sub-forum wuld be good.
Peer-reviewed articles are the heart of most every academic discipline. Game dev is an academic discipline these days, you can get a master's degree in game dev. having such a forum would lend credibility to GM as a 'serious tool'.

Tutorials are 'how-to's' on a given subject, they walk you through doing it and setting things up. They are 'almost' a peer-reviewed entry,where others can comment, point out bugs and errors and build off each other. An 'article' is more an exploration of what can be done, a unique approach etc. They are similar, yet have a different focus. An Article points to 'hey, I did this thing, here was how I did it' while a tutorial is more 'hey, here is how you do this thing'.
Making the tutorial forum the 'Articles and Tutorials' forum would be one possible option.

As for 'blogs' a lot of forum software allows you to have one on your profile, you can post a entry or update there.
Having the ability to write articles and make them available on your profile, would be rather nice. You could browse a user's offerings easily and follow your
 
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