I had a go at Unity3D. I missed Gamemaker!

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Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
There's not enough "3D" to justify a separate forum, and any "advanced" forum ends up being posted to by lots of beginners who are "sure" this must be something advanced.

When there IS enough, we'll think about making one. But not yet.....
 

Roa

Member
Yeah, I don't fully understand the aversion even though its been hastily kicked about before. Why exactly can't we have a 3d sub forum?

Is it because you don't want attention drawn to the 3d aspects thinking people will get the wrong idea that its up to date? Or you think its too akin to programming Q/A to warrent a new subsection?

I've gotten answers from Noc, but I already know he is just the messenger boy for some other voice.
 

FrostyCat

Member
Common Mike :eek:

Or at least a graphics programming section, where users can post about shaders/advanced rendering related stuff.

It's the only reason I came to the previous GMC :(
What use is discussion of shaders and advanced rendering techniques when most of your audience doesn't even know what a cross product or a homogeneous coordinate is? You are casting pearls before swines, and these swines are the reason why the 3D forum can't reincarnate here.

Trust me, as a frequent Q&A responder, I've seen enough when it comes to a lack of basics --- people doing 3D without basic linear algebra and vector math, people doing physics without basic classical mechanics, people doing online stuff without basic networking theory. It's beyond dumb.

I'd love a more exclusive club where advanced people can share advanced techniques among equals, but who am I kidding?
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Actually.... an "invite only" for advanced posts might be possible. It wouldn't be a dedicated 3D or GPU or anything, but one where folk who DO know what they're doing, can ask advanced stuff.

Let me think about it and discuss it a bit.......
 
N

NPT

Guest
Common Mike :eek:

Or at least a graphics programming section, where users can post about shaders/advanced rendering related stuff.
Yeah, I don't fully understand the aversion even though its been hastily kicked about before. Why exactly can't we have a 3d sub forum?
If you want a graphics programming the solution is easy. Create enough traffic by posting graphic programming content. If it is sufficiently popular there will be enough posts to justify creating a dedicated forum. If there isn't then you don't get one, nor should you.

The same is true fro any specialized topic group.
 

Roa

Member
What use is discussion of shaders and advanced rendering techniques when most of your audience doesn't even know what a cross product or a homogeneous coordinate is? You are casting pearls before swines, and these swines are the reason why the 3D forum can't reincarnate here.

Trust me, as a frequent Q&A responder, I've seen enough when it comes to a lack of basics --- people doing 3D without basic linear algebra and vector math, people doing physics without basic classical mechanics, people doing online stuff without basic networking theory. It's beyond dumb.

I'd love a more exclusive club where advanced people can share advanced techniques among equals, but who am I kidding?
***** ****** frosty. You've become so cynical and narcissistic recently lol.

You know game maker is an entry tool and that simply because new people may not know what to do with it doesn't mean advanced users can't help or have space to share things? Coding is opening a door to critical problem solving and people that ask questions that seem obvious or oblivious to known things show they haven't developed the mind set, it doesn't show that they are incapable of understanding things. That's why these forums exist. That's why we don't write things for people, but ask them to present what they have done and show them what to change, and we hope that they gain the ability to solve problems on their own using skills and tools that they already have. If someone ask about maths or something, it has less to do with knowing it, and more to do with understanding why and how to apply it. Keep in mind it is highly possible some people haven't even finished their high school algebra before using gamemaker. I'm not giving them a free pass, but this is the nature of the environment here.

You're literally calling the main and majority user here "swine" because they are not familiar with how to apply things in this environment. Half of them don't even know how to word their questions for what they are looking for. Questions on things like this wont stop regardless if you have a space for advanced users.
 

Roa

Member
If you want a graphics programming the solution is easy. Create enough traffic by posting graphic programming content. If it is sufficiently popular there will be enough posts to justify creating a dedicated forum. If there isn't then you don't get one, nor should you.

The same is true fro any specialized topic group.
Because we all know the old 3d forum didn't have daily replies and content constantly stickied and uploaded to it :rolleyes:

Idk, I thought the traffic was proportionate to the number of people that used 3d. And its just grown stronger since studio.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Nah, there's usually only a few questions at any one time. That's certainly not enough for a dedicated forum.
 
N

NPT

Guest
Because we all know the old 3d forum didn't have daily replies and content constantly stickied and uploaded to it :rolleyes:

Idk, I thought the traffic was proportionate to the number of people that used 3d. And its just grown stronger since studio.
And what you also don't know is the history behind the creation of the 3d forums.

Up to GM5.x Mark Overmars' position was, don't expect 3D within GameMaker, here is his exact quote from a 2004 FAQ:
SUGGESTIONS I WON'T FOLLOW
...
- A 3D version of Game Maker. (Never say never but stop asking me.)
...
With the release of GM6 and the introduction of 3d, Mark specifically wanted a forum where he could get direct feedback, quickly and conveniently, All in one place. Thus the creation of the 3d forum.

Although its original purpose had long since been satisfied, its presence had been grandfathered for historical purposes, despite not having traffic to justify its presence.
 

Roa

Member
@NPT Who cares about mark at this point? He hasn't been affiliated with gamemaker for around 12 years or so. Mike and Sandy and Russle and their crew have done more for gamemaker than mark ever had. More than he could ever dream. Don't forget that at one point gamemaker wasn't even a game maker, but animation software. Its an evolving product. I'm not looking at pointless quotes from a man since long gone and his ideas from the past. I'm looking towards the future. I'm looking at the addition of a better 3d support, and shaders and faster rendering, and multiplat that has attracted a much different audience than was previous around. I'm looking at several games using game maker's 3d on steam, and the amount of shader work and DLLs to bypass current restrictions. Without retyping what I mentioned previously.

Gamemaker studio has more to offer than yoyo realizes. The simplicity of the work space and native code and easy as hell multi plat setup give gamemaker it's power.

YoYo is actually being kinda irrational and stupid honestly. I don't think they have really sat back and looked at who is using their products. Obviously there are some very, very talented people putting gamemaker on life support, doing back flips to add things like this to its 3d support because yoyo simply wont. Look where gamemakers 3d is now, look how many assets and how many users are on 3d from an engine that allows base polygons and shaders, in an engine that is advertised as 2d and everyone know's its far far more work than using unity. That's clearly not the point or what people care about and why people continue to push the issue. This 3d audience is not small either. Even through the thick and thin, they are bent on spitting out stuff in GML, because GML gives them all the tools to do and handle things fast and reliability from a coding stand point.

Also kind of a double slap in the face when we can't have 3d forums or request 3d additions, yet they accept 3d assets on the market under their representation of quality getting a bit of money and with no qualms. They have the demand, they have the man power and the minds, and they are fully aware of the people pushing gamemaker ever further into 3d. And they are just choosing to sit on it based on some idea that once upon a time, gamemaker wasn't intended for 3d.

Anyone can suggest to go use unity for 3d, but at that point, why stop there? Just use it for everything if you're going to learn that environment. Its stronger than gml in 2d too, so saying that they don't or cant have overlapping markets is silly. They're in direct competition. I mean, the 3d audience for studio isn't going anywhere, no matter how much they have to add themselves and how crudely they/we can push out games and designs for it lol.

3d community is yoyo's bastard child, whether they denounce them or not.

That's just one man's opinion though.
We have more 3d support and shader support, and in general advanced graphics than ever, and there is no where to talk about these things. There used to be an advanced tab, a 3d tab, a shader tab. The audience for that has been forced into the everyday Q/A where people can't afford the time to use the search before posting a question. Do you blame them for wanting a space?

I mean, these topics are constantly going to dwindle back to this conversation until its recognized lol.
 
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FrostyCat

Member
jesus christ frosty. You've become so cynical and narcissistic recently lol.

You know game maker is an entry tool and that simply because new people may not know what to do with it doesn't mean advanced users can't help or have space to share things? Coding is opening a door to critical problem solving and people that ask questions that seem obvious or oblivious to known things show they haven't developed the mind set, it doesn't show that they are incapable of understanding things. That's why these forums exist. That's why we don't write things for people, but ask them to present what they have done and show them what to change, and we hope that they gain the ability to solve problems on their own using skills and tools that they already have. If someone ask about maths or something, it has less to do with knowing it, and more to do with understanding why and how to apply it. Keep in mind it is highly possible some people haven't even finished their high school algebra before using gamemaker. I'm not giving them a free pass, but this is the nature of the environment here.

You're literally calling the main and majority user here "swine" because they are not familiar with how to apply things in this environment. Half of them don't even know how to word their questions for what they are looking for. Questions on things like this wont stop regardless if you have a space for advanced users.
I never implied that experts shouldn't help or share stuff with novices. What I did imply is that there is material that makes sense only to subject experts, and it needs to be in a space where only sufficiently skilled people discuss them to be effective.

Last month I answered almost 6 questions in a row about physics, every single one of them had the identical issue of not knowing the difference between forces and impulses. I told every single one of them to learn classical mechanics so that they can save themselves. None listened.

And here's an example of a 3D discussion getting derailed by "swines": http://gmc.yoyogames.com/index.php?showtopic=111414

It's nothing advanced, yet just look at how derailed the first page is. People not knowing what dX, dY, and dZ do even though the author did explain them. People not knowing any vector math wasting the author's time with the simplest crap.

For the same reason I don't butt into discussions about music theory among virtuosos, I don't want to see any more "swines" butting into serious 3D discussions asking what an up vector is or serious shader discussions asking what normals are. They should be spending their own time learning what those basic terms mean before speaking up.

Agreed. Implying you should know everything before you learn anything is a ridiculous idea...
Explain to me where I implied knowing everything before learning anything. I only implied knowing basics before learning more advanced material.

It's OK not to have basics, everyone had a time when they were without it. But it's not OK to not have basics and then press ahead with something that obviously demands a solid grasp of such basics. It's about exercising some common sense and doing stuff in order.

I don't think that's too much to ask for.
 
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NPT

Guest
@NPT Who cares about mark at this point? He hasn't been affiliated with gamemaker for around 12 years or so. Mike and Sandy and Russle and their crew have done more for gamemaker than mark ever had. More than he could ever dream. Don't forget that at one point gamemaker wasn't even a game maker, but animation software. Its an evolving product. I'm not looking at pointless quotes from a man since long gone and his ideas from the past. I'm looking towards the future. I'm looking at the addition of a better 3d support, and shaders and faster rendering, and multiplat that has attracted a much different audience than was previous around. I'm looking at several games using game maker's 3d on steam, and the amount of shader work and DLLs to bypass current restrictions. Without retyping what I mentioned previously.
My post was not about Mark, it was about why the original 3D was created, cripes you were one of the guys who brought the old 3D forums into this conversation. I explain to you why it was once appropriate (and no longer is) and you start strawmanning.

We have more 3d support and shader support, and in general advanced graphics than ever, and there is no where to talk about these things. There used to be an advanced tab, a 3d tab, a shader tab. The audience for that has been forced into the everyday Q/A where people can't afford the time to use the search before posting a question. Do you blame them for wanting a space?

I mean, these topics are constantly going to dwindle back to this conversation until its recognized lol.
OMG you poor things, you're being forced to post in the everyday QA forum. Here's a clue, everybody is being "forced" into the everyday programming forum, because the current traffic levels suggests only one forum is required. As the traffic increases then it can be split into catagories dictated by the traffic.

Using your reasoning, then separate forums should be created for every programming type, area or discipline.
- 3D, networking, DLL, RGPs, UWP. Advertising, Steam, HTML5, AI...

There's a 3D prefix, use it.
 

icuurd12b42

TMC Founder
GMC Elder
It's OK not to have basics, everyone had a time when they were without it. But it's not OK to not have basics and then press ahead with something that obviously demands a solid grasp of such basics. It's about exercising some common sense and doing stuff in order.
It's not really what you implied in your first statement. you first statement was more like people have no right to jump in with a sink or swim attitude. and a great majority (myself included) work that way.
 

Roa

Member
My post was not about Mark, it was about why the original 3D was created, cripes you were one of the guys who brought the old 3D forums into this conversation. I explain to you why it was once appropriate (and no longer is) and you start strawmanning.



OMG you poor things, you're being forced to post in the everyday QA forum. Here's a clue, everybody is being "forced" into the everyday programming forum, because the current traffic levels suggests only one forum is required. As the traffic increases then it can be split into catagories dictated by the traffic.

Using your reasoning, then separate forums should be created for every programming type, area or discipline.
- 3D, networking, DLL, RGPs, UWP. Advertising, Steam, HTML5, AI...

There's a 3D prefix, use it.
Sorry man, but it sounded like you are leaning in the direction of "but mark said.." and I was going to make sure that wasn't going to shift the focus. It doesn't matter why they were here or why they are gone. What matters is what is happening to the advanced community and where they can and cannot have a centralized focus on their work.

And the difference between all these other topics, is that they are directly related to game maker. Things like html5 and platforms have their own support forum for those dedicated issues. Things like networking and rpgs can be dealt with within gml natively and usually has something to do with code structure or functions. We're not asking for a place to be separate in GML coding and ideas. We're asking for a place to grow and share ideas related to gamemaker and extending it, but not directly involved. Things like 3d design and theory, DLLs , shader coding, delving into OS and hardware level coding, all massive topics that extend outside GM which is a completely different ballpark from using basic gml. You think the average user is going to answer or contribute to those threads? Apples to oranges dude.

Pioneers and Inventors from the users.

I mean, we can continue to dump into community chat, but most people are not going to affiliate themselves in a place where they can't set the tone of the topic at hand, where its going to be buried. There is a clear divide of users here. Its not my forum, they do what ever they want, but you have clear claims of people feeling alienated in this very thread who don't feel there is an appropriate space for their level of work and they have been displaced. And this topic will probably keep surfacing.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
There is a clear divide of users here
No, there are clearly a vocal few and a quiet great majority. The quiet great majority have no interest in what the vocal few want, and would rather have a place where they can post their problem easily and get it replied to quickly. The GMC has a SINGLE programming forum and it is currently getting more traffic than ever, and I don't think there is any topic that goes unanswered (and that goes for those topics about 3D). If we split the forums again, we get split posting again and people don't know where to post and so their topics get ignored or lost etc... We have topic prefixes for a reason and that reason is that it removes the need for further sub-forums.

I've gotten answers from Noc, but I already know he is just the messenger boy for some other voice.
Umm, that's actually pretty damn offensive Roa... When it comes to the Forums, it was the three of us (Mike, Shaun and myself) that decided on the final look and layout through discussion and planning, not Mike (ot YYG) telling his "message boy" how to do it.
 
J

jackhigh24

Guest
Umm, that's actually pretty damn offensive Roa... When it comes to the Forums, it was the three of us (Mike, Shaun and myself) that decided on the final look and layout through discussion and planning, not Mike (ot YYG) telling his "message boy" how to do it.
ye i can confirm @Nocturne does as he pretty much wants and is not a massage boy, cant give details but i know yoyo wanted something done and its not been done yet, even though it involves life and death situation for the person affected, ;).

EDIT
must say though that it is on that persons (who is effected) own shoulders but hay addiction is addiction.
 
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Roa

Member
No, there are clearly a vocal few and a quiet great majority. The quiet great majority have no interest in what the vocal few want, and would rather have a place where they can post their problem easily and get it replied to quickly. The GMC has a SINGLE programming forum and it is currently getting more traffic than ever, and I don't think there is any topic that goes unanswered (and that goes for those topics about 3D). If we split the forums again, we get split posting again and people don't know where to post and so their topics get ignored or lost etc... We have topic prefixes for a reason and that reason is that it removes the need for further sub-forums.



Umm, that's actually pretty damn offensive Roa... When it comes to the Forums, it was the three of us (Mike, Shaun and myself) that decided on the final look and layout through discussion and planning, not Mike (ot YYG) telling his "message boy" how to do it.
Sorry man, I didn't mean to come off as an ******* but when we had conversations about it before, it seemed really insincere and impersonal compared to other topics, so I figured you were just repeating something from a higher up that called the shots. Not every forum admin gets a say, they just do their job to oversee operation and maintenance. YoYo is more lax and tight knit of a company, but everyone answers to someone and I already knew Mikes thoughts well before you and I spoke on anything.

And if getting people into one quota for a forum pull is the goal, who am I to argue.
 
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Micah_DS

Member
The conversation between @Mike and @orange451 is interesting, but I know very little in this area and I honestly wouldn't dare to join in even if I did know a lot in the field,:p but instead I just wanted to say that I'm really thankful for GameMaker and for the options currently available. I have kind of a long story that I doubt anyone would be interested in hearing, so I'll just say that it gives me perspective on working long and hard with complex things that require a lot of knowledge and experience, and it's funny how it looks like you're doing almost nothing in the eyes of the layman and/or to anyone not involved in all the workings of a project, even though you're actually working extremely hard and making good progress. Actually, I'm sure a lot of people here can understand this, being game developers, yes? This is why I wait patiently for new additions to GameMaker and I don't complain. Plus, there's plenty that can be done - and done quite well - with the latest version of GameMaker. So I'm fine with just waiting for these graphics-related options and other things.

YYG is directly knowledgeable and experienced with the workings of GameMaker. In addition to this, they have been listening to all the users putting up complaints and requests for features, etc. It should be pretty obvious that YYG is the most aware of what GameMaker needs first.

We do plan - one day, to add texture formats, and index buffers (which we REALLY want/need), but we've other things that are more important right now I'm afraid....one day....one day...,,,,
However, I do stand by the "we really do want to add it, and will at some point". But please bear in mind, almost always more to any feature than just adding a couple of lines of code.
So this is good enough for me. I'll just wait and let YYG do their job. IMHO, they've been doing extremely well with improving GameMaker, and I'm excited to see what 2.0 is going to bring to the table. As I said, even now, there is so much that can be done with GameMaker. Sure, we might be a bit sad or frustrated about some features that could further improve GameMaker, but let's not forget about the awesome features we already have.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I also feel I should point out that while looking at the traffic for the old GMC, the 3D forum was one of the least used, along with the Advanced forum. Also note that we did try and address the issues with people posting in the advanced forum several times (implementing features like a minimum post count and also changing its name several times) but nothing was successful in either stopping non-advanced posts nor encouraging people to post advanced questions. The main issues are:

1) Having any kind of forum control (post count limits before posting, or locked forum only available to those that get permission to post) creates a two tier forum and an elitist them/us attitude. We also have the issue that with a walled forum we (the staff) need to decide who gets access... but how can we really tell? There have been members with almost zero post count that have been using GM for years and know a hell of a lot more than the majority, and there are members that post hundreds of times a week and help out a lot in AQ but that really no nothing beyond the most basic. Personally I wouldn't like to put the staff in a position whereby they have to "vet" user access to a forum based on supposed abilities.

2) How do you judge an advanced question? Any question may seem advanced to the person posting and this is especially true for beginners, and less and less true for actual advanced users! A post about quaternions may seem trivial to an experienced programmer, but incredibly advanced to someone that's new... and so if we don't wall off the Advanced forums we will undoubtedly just get it filled with regular topics that can be answered in Q&A. What happened on the old GMC? The Advanced forum ended up becoming just an extension of Q&A only the people that posted their got less replies since most of the most helpful members checked Q&A, not Advanced.

So, I am very much against changing the forum structure right now and think that for the general userbase it is perfectly fine. I will grant that on the old GMC the Shader forum got a fair bit of traffic and that an argument can be made for it being recreated here, but again, with the tags and prefixes system I see no need for it.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Okay guys, this is just going round and round, and getting more and more heated - and even flaming folk. We've explained the reason we're not going to add a dedicated forum just yet - several times, but that doesn't seem to matter, you can't seem to shift past it. So...last time.

We currently don't see the need for a dedicated or advanced forum, there simply isn't enough traffic for it. If that changes, then we'll reconsider, but until then this is not going to change. if you want to find 3D posts, then tag them.

Closing.
 
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