How much would you work for? (The money talk)

Fern

Member
I have long aspired to complete a few successful titles and to then hire a group of talented programmers/artists to continue my legacy whilst I watch over them. Over the past few years I have received a number of offers for free lance work but I'm a pricy guy so generally they walk away.

What I would like to know is how much would YOU work for? $10 an hour? $50,000 a year? What benefits? What kind of creative control would you want?

If you not 18 or older, this question really doesn't apply to you as I personally would not hire someone unless they are a grown adult with a bit of life experience.

(NOTE: I am not looking to hire anyone. I am looking to get some general information on this topic as well as start a discussion.)
 
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seanm

Guest
Depends on how much I believed in the project. The more I did, the more I would push for a revenue split.

but I personally would want at least 15/hour
 

Fern

Member
Depends on how much I believed in the project. The more I did, the more I would push for a revenue split.

but I personally would want at least 15/hour
Interesting. I too make myself $15 an hour. But usually only if it is something I don't want to do.
 
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seanm

Guest
I live in canada so that would be closer to 19/hour in canadian fun bucks.

I'm pretty confident I can find enough freelance/solo work to earn around that right now; but someone who values the consistent paycheck more than I do would probably work for less.
 

Jobo

Member
GMC Elder
Little introduction to a long post... The first paragraph is an overview of my own freelancing adventure from beginning to end and how I progressed with my experience, and the last paragraph has golden tips for budding freelancers.

My first ever paid gig was for $20/week "work when you want". It was a terrible offer, but wow! Someone offered to pay me for what I loved doing - it was a big deal! I am very glad I took that offer, because it started a friendship that was very influential for me for a few years following that. That was the first time I realised I could make money with GameMaker. Mind you, this was before GameMaker: Studio was released - GameMaker wasn't the heavy hitter it is now in the commercial indie scene. Next job I took was a $100 gig to develop a simple A.I. for someone's project that took roughly three days. Then I was hired for a full project, a virtual board game, in 2012 that was supposed to target iOS, Android and PC. Development started for PC, because GameMaker: Studio was still not out - we only had rumors. Lo and behold, in the first few weeks of that project GameMaker: Studio was released so we upgraded and kicked iOS development into gear. This was my first "real" freelance job, and I wasn't charging an hourly rate for it. We discussed a feature and agreed on a price based on how long I estimated it would take. With the earnings from this project, I purchased a big workstation desktop I still have today - an investment in my work, you might say. A few months later I scored my first big job - a project I came in late for and had to fix the previous developer's problems (who had abandoned it 2 weeks before a hard deadline). I started from scratch and had to work night and day for two weeks to complete it, and I charged just about $4000 for it - so no hourly rate here either, we agreed on a price before I started working based on the work conditions. At the end of the job, they suggested we kept working together for future projects they would get (they were a large app development company). I think this story also teaches a strong lesson for aspiring freelancers in how to work with individuals and how to work with companies; you should not handle them the same way. After this project I started charging by the hour, and while this project was big it wasn't the biggest I worked on. I would also often have more than 1 project at a time, if the schedule allowed it. I started out demanding $25/hour, and later on I was hired for my biggest project yet; a mobile card-based MMO (myself as lead programmer, a server engineer and a group of artists) that I worked on for 9 months weekends included and charged $35/hour. As I'd had only a few weekends to myself in that period I eventually burned out and called stop. This was my last larger freelance gig, as I never really recovered from the burnout before I got picked up by the YoYo family (and I was in no short supply of money after a lucrative "freelancing season"). Very rarely I will still take offers from old clients to fix a few bugs or optimization issues, implement the odd feature (e.g. HTML5 advertisement) or work as a consultant. Nowadays I charge $35-45/hour for individuals, and I no longer work with companies or take up larger projects.

To any new or existing freelancer; charge an amount you're comfortable with and grow with your experience. It is okay to charge more as you improve; but you have to know that you're worth what you're charging. You are putting a price tag on your qualities as a scripter, an artist, a sound engineer, or whatever you do - but remember that the more you charge, the more your client expects from you. Charging a higher price means there are a lot of clients who can't afford to hire you, but this is part of my "vetting process". Clients will find the best candidate out of a list of freelancers, and in the same way freelancers must find the best candidate out of a list of clients - it goes both ways. I am very strict with this, and that's why I have never had a bad client or a job gone wrong - and the jobs I got were lucrative enough to outweigh the downsides of passing up most potential clients. One of the most important things in freelancing is to always satisfy your clients and keep in touch with them - if they enjoyed working with you, they will come back to you when they need more work. Go into a project with the mentality that you are not working for the client, you are working with the client. Introduce your own protocols in the workflow, so you always work in an environment you are comfortable with and can hit the ground running.

Some Do's and Dont's of remote freelancing...
- Don't: demand upfront payment - it's unprofessional.
Do: inspire trust in your work relationship.
- Don't: sell yourself short.
Do: settle for a lower price if you're in need of work, but set a minimum acceptable fee.
- Don't: forget to communicate with your client.
Do: provide daily updates on the work you've done and don't be afraid to ask for clarification.
- Don't: receive money 'under the table'.
Do: provide detailed invoices. This is necessary to work with professional clients.
 
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Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
My first 'real' job (at Ikea) had a hourly rate of roughly $11.50, so I'd only work for less if I did something I really loved to do and/or it was pretty effortless; most programming wouldn't really fall in those categories, and I'm pretty sure 10 years' worth of GM experience should equate to being able to charge more.

I'm actually relatively strict with only doing stuff I like nowadays... I had a real programming job (aka not freelancing, working full time) later and it got me so completely burned out I've been sick with an achemical depression for nearly a year (and counting). I'm not sure I would survive going through all that a second time. (Probably would've been less if there'd been better mental support in Sweden... a lot of the time has been me waiting for the next meeting 2 weeks later and I still don't quite feel I've gotten to talk about core issues like constantly pondering death)
 

jazzzar

Member
Depends on how you value your time and effort.

Biggest thing I see all the time is people selling themselves short. I used to do it myself.

These days I won't reboot someone's PC for less than $100.

Just say you have to drive one hour, reboot a PC, then one hour back. That was then $50 per hour.

If you say "I'll come out and turn your PC off and on for $10", then you have just worked for $5 per hour, cost of petrol, and cost of wear and tear. Then you need to be able to start the next job immediately otherwise you are losing even more.

So that quick and easy ten bucks quickly becomes $2 an hour.
never thought about it that way, i like how you think :p
 

Warspite2

Member
It's all about what your time is worth. Base that on your background such as experience and education and what you can bring to the table. Last the current market price for whatever it is you do. Mine is $15 to as high as $50 hr or even more. Depending on the job and what both parties agree to and feel is fair pay. Always negotiable :)
 
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Robert

Guest
Well, I am a professional programmer, though I don't make video games, but instead build web technologies for the hospitality industry. I make pretty good money, around 6 figures, but it's very boring work. Well, the projects themselves are quite interesting, but I could care less about software for managing a hotels reservation system, or a restaurants seating availability, or whatever little tools these companies hire me to build. The money is good, the work is okay, but ultimately I would like to make games. However, after working in this programming industry for so long I have come to realize that even if I were to go get a job at some game dev company it wouldn't be much different than what I do now. Ultimately I am really only interested in making games for myself because building someone elses game would be no different than what I do now. So with that in mind, I would really only accept a paying job that would match what I make now.
 
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Shihaisha

Guest
Looks like most people here are expecting hefty $15/hour for their great skills, but all I see in the "made with GameMaker" subforum are amateur games (mostly simple clones) that usually (there are a few exceptions) fail to get at least a few hundred downloads at google play (can't see stats for itch.io and the like, but I doubt those are any better). So if most of you guys are such great pros who can easily earn $15 per hour, how comes that most of you spend your time making games that can barely earn $15 per year? :p

I hope nobody will get offended, but I think the average quality of games produced by members of this forum is in hilarious contrast to average estimates of how much their skills and time cost.
 
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seanm

Guest
Because most of the people here are kids. Making 15/hour from freelance work isn't difficult.

Edit: 15 canadian fun bucks at least..
 

Fern

Member
The people who post here every 20-30 minutes are the ones who aren't doing anything else with their time. That is probably why they don't make decent games. It takes months to create even a decent prototype.
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
The main reason I don't post about my commercial projects on the GMC is because I don't think my games would get that much traffic out of it - judging by how dead the Completed Games subforum was on the old GMC - and resource posts are limited to Marketplace resources, so I can't really advertise my Itchio resource packs without breaking some rule. I guess that will change as I start getting stuff I'm proud of complete, which happens little by little (Road Warriors 2 and Bushido Panda being two).
 
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fragment

Guest
Ultimately I think around $50/hour would be my minimum, however, starting out (ie. under 2 years professional experience) I would probably be happy to accept somewhere in the region of $30/hour.

edit: forgot to mention that this would be if I was looking to do freelance full time, if it is a part time thing on the side, I would accept less

@Yal, nice art on Itch.io
 
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zircher

Guest
As many have mentioned, I also do the professional programming thing (insurance industry.) I do 3d modeling and game programming for the fun and challenge. Trying to do it as a pro, and I would probably be homeless before I would be self supporting. As a part-time gig, I'd probably ask $20 per hour, $40 to 50 if I had to pay taxes on it (self employed tax rates are brutal.)
 

Fern

Member
As many have mentioned, I also do the professional programming thing (insurance industry.) I do 3d modeling and game programming for the fun and challenge. Trying to do it as a pro, and I would probably be homeless before I would be self supporting. As a part-time gig, I'd probably ask $20 per hour, $40 to 50 if I had to pay taxes on it (self employed tax rates are brutal.)
30% tax rate for me. Makes living off of my work nearly impossible.
 
Everyone is going to be different, depending on their skill level. I've heard $25-$50 is the "fair" price for a decent pixel artist these days, but I don't know about any other fields...
 
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zircher

Guest
Sounds like we have hourly rates nailed down, if the original poster doesn't mind, another question might be... what are your per piece or commission rates? I can realistically see people buying animation sets for a few characters, 3D models, textures packs, audio, etc. on a part by part basic as their budget allows.


[edited for stupid typo]
 
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I make free video games as a hobby. Maybe one day I'll sell some of them, but as of today I just think that working in the game industry or generally working in a game dev team wouldn't be my future. I like making everything: art, music, stories, coding. Usually when you work in a team those roles will be separated. So if someone wants to hire me to code game, no matter the price, I will politely decline.

However, I would gladly work as a game design consultant, for instance if someone wanted to make a mainstream highly polished version of one of my games. I'm the kind of person who prefers getting royalties than getting a salary :p
After that anything between 1$ and 5$ per game copy sold is good for me.
 
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Drewster

Guest
Wait, isn't that too much
Kind of depends on your goals too. Obviously if it was a project I totally loved then I'd be willing to take less money or less guaranteed money in exchange for a piece of the pie. But whether it's an hourly rate or a cost per job or a piece of the revenues or profits really depends on your goals. The calculation is very different if I am giving up my day job -- then I need to know I'm going to make enough money to support my life. On the other hand if I'm living with my parents or sharing an $800 apartment with 3 others, I can make much smaller numbers work. If I'm going to do a big major piece of something big and major then I'd want part of the profit or revenue or something. Or if it's helping a friend maybe I don't need to get paid. :)
 

jazzzar

Member
Kind of depends on your goals too. Obviously if it was a project I totally loved then I'd be willing to take less money or less guaranteed money in exchange for a piece of the pie. But whether it's an hourly rate or a cost per job or a piece of the revenues or profits really depends on your goals. The calculation is very different if I am giving up my day job -- then I need to know I'm going to make enough money to support my life. On the other hand if I'm living with my parents or sharing an $800 apartment with 3 others, I can make much smaller numbers work. If I'm going to do a big major piece of something big and major then I'd want part of the profit or revenue or something. Or if it's helping a friend maybe I don't need to get paid. :)
seems legit
 
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Andy

Guest
I don't think it's realistic to expect $15 hourly, especially if you don't have an established name within the industry. When you start out, it's the person hiring you who dictates what you make. Everyone wants to work in the video game industry, and they can always find someone to work cheaper than you.
 
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heyimdandan

Guest
I think the majority of people here are hobbyists, and GameMaker appeals to people with more of a passing interest in making games for fun rather than a serious full time career. And then there are the trolls who are able to write screeds about life, the universe and everything - they seem happy to split their time coding and speculating. I've been working away full time on my own game for around 10 months and haven't made a single penny from it. I don't know if I'll ever see any return on my time investment... other than to say the games market is becoming as over saturated as the music industry. But clearly there must be money in it for someone if Steam and Sony are green lighting so many indie projects for their own sales/console platforms.
 
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