how many genders are there?

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manoelpdb

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Commercially speaking there're only two: male and female. That's how they can market stuff for boys/girls, men/women etc. But in realitly? It's actually up to you to decide how you describe your genre best!
 
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Guest User

Guest
Commercially speaking there're only two: male and female. That's how they can market stuff for boys/girls, men/women etc. But in realitly? It's actually up to you to decide how you describe your genre best!
ehhh some products flourish by marketing to neither or both, so there are roughly three to four genders if we're going by "gendered products".
but for all intents and purposes, following this logic there would only be one gender. the human being with all our needs, differences, insecurities, flaws, and weaknesses to identify and exploit to make them do things (in this case, buy stuff with money). :p
 
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Yanevski

Member
Hmm. That's a tough one. How many genders are there?
I personally thought there were only two genders: male and female.
That's until realized gender is more about interests than biological sex.

I thought maybe we could define gender as a spectrum between male and female?
That would include trans people; But that quickly hit a brick wall when I realized agendered and otherkin people exist.
Then why not just refer to gender as an abstract vector over a set of interests and ditch labels like "male", "female", etc.?
So everyone would proudly identify with their own unique vector on the gender field.

The problem now is how do we define "interests"?
Saying interest is "what people like" is too simplistic because doesn't account that a person's feelings might change, or that a person can have different feelings in different contexts (or even mixed feelings).
An interest can better be defined as a path integral of feelings i=Fdt through the person's life time; You usually evaluate this integral by getting to know somebody, though getting to fully know the value of someone's i is impossible because you can never know anyone that well. And not only that but the real problem is that people themselves are often unsure what their interests are. This makes any measurement of someone's i about something extremely difficult therefore any objective classification of people by interest (without wild generalizations) comes off as meaningless.

That's why maybe the best solution wan't proposed yet: don't put people in baskets.
 
G

Guest User

Guest
i don't think otherkin are ever considered transgender unless they happen to be a transgender that is also an otherkin.

it's considered an issue of identity for sure, but i don't think it's ever really been considered an issue of gender, specifically.
 

roytheshort

The Village Idiot
The trick to encouraging open mindedness is to expose yourself to large amounts of radioactive substances and biochemical waste, mutating to the point you can no longer be recognized as human. Allowing more flexible definitions that objectively cannot be denied. Every day you will scream in agony towards an unloving god as where was I going with this?
 

John Andrews

Living Enigma
tw2

male who has male genitalia between their legs (nepis)
female who has female genitalie between her legs (vgns)

others are a mixture of both, or potatoes.

over.
 
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zendraw

Member
We already have a word to describe a person's interests - it's 'personality'. Why bring the word 'gender' into it?
that kinda dont make sense to me, your intrests define your personality? first time hearing this. can you explain whats the logic or w/e behind this statement?
 

Yokcos

Member
your intrests define your personality?
No, your personality determines your interests. Your interests are therefore indicative of personality. Only a certain type of person will be interested in model railways, only a certain type of person will skydive, only a certain type of person will work 80 hours a week.

I agree that bringing interests into the definition of gender is dumb; it means that whether someone collects stamps or plays Desperate Times affects their gender. You see the problem here.
 

Lumenflower

Yellow Dog
that kinda dont make sense to me, your intrests define your personality? first time hearing this. can you explain whats the logic or w/e behind this statement?
Ok I agree it wasn't the best-phrased point. Maybe a better way of putting it is that your interests are your interests. Why bring the idea of gender into that?
 

zendraw

Member
aha, still i wonder why you guys still keep this topic alive, for me, people who have issues with topics that have only ideal value, are simply pushin an agenda that they have, otherwise no1 really cares cus people who are too busy with theyr lives don have no time for dat. or they simply ridicule the thing. anyway atleast drop a joke or smthin in future. :p
 
G

Guest User

Guest
ya know i suppose if you have a boy who plays with dolls and gets scolded a/o beat for doing so lead to the boy deciding that he is probably actually a girl because of his interests, then we actually could say gender had been influenced by interests. o:
 
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Lumenflower

Yellow Dog
ya know i suppose if you have a boy who plays with dolls and gets scolded a/o beat for doing so lead to the boy deciding that he is probably actually a girl because of his interests, then we actually could say gender had been influenced by interests. o:
A very good point, but it illustrates the same issue that this topic deals with as a whole. If a boy decides that he's actually a girl based on his interests, and thinks that the fact that he plays with dolls makes him a girl, then that's an example of the existing gender stereotypes that the LGBTQ+ community has been fighting so hard to overcome. Boys should be able to play with dolls and makeup - and likewise girls with footballs and video games - without feeling like that reflects on their gender identity. Surely saying that your interests define your gender only reinforces these gender stereotypes? Let your interests be your interests; your gender identity is personal and innate and it is yours to understand.
 

zendraw

Member
if people wuld simply ask 'WHY' a big portion of the issues will dissapear. facts are irrelavent without context. wether a boy will play with girl toys or boy toys is irrelavent and brings no understanding. answering WHY he plays with certain toys brings understanding and clearence and prevents from stretchin the issue to infinity. maybe he just wants to provoke his parents, or maybe somthing else. you people are thinking the same way the people that created these stereotypes think. 'This animal has horns, its the devil!' 'Wait, its just a goat' 'No no its the devil i tell you! Burn it!'. thats your way of thinking.

for instance i can say charls manson has an awakened mind and talks truths. 'oh wait, hes a notorious killer or smthing and this guy says he talks truth? hes mad'. amiright?
 
G

Guest User

Guest
A very good point, but it illustrates the same issue that this topic deals with as a whole. If a boy decides that he's actually a girl based on his interests, and thinks that the fact that he plays with dolls makes him a girl, then that's an example of the existing gender stereotypes that the LGBTQ+ community has been fighting so hard to overcome. Boys should be able to play with dolls and makeup - and likewise girls with footballs and video games - without feeling like that reflects on their gender identity. Surely saying that your interests define your gender only reinforces these gender stereotypes? Let your interests be your interests; your gender identity is personal and innate and it is yours to understand.
my post was more with the intent that, unfortunately, this probably does happen as a result of restrictive thinking rather than "this happens therefore interests DO define gender so you're wrong, hah!".

i mean--by that sort of logic--using gamemaker would have made me into a man. :(
 
B

Bulwarkene

Guest
Why is this even a question. There are three:

  • Male
  • Female
  • Attack Helicopter
 
G

Guest User

Guest
a thread's length directly correlates to the likelihood of people making jokes that have already been made. :p
 
T

Tarco

Guest
I would say 3, with the 3rd being inter-sex.
Anyone else seen anything on the whole ''Jordan Peterson'' controversy on this topic?
 

Yokcos

Member
Anyone else seen anything on the whole ''Jordan Peterson'' controversy on this topic?
yep.

The problem with referring to gender as a thing that is a fabrication of society is that it becomes wholly meaningless. If you say that gender is affected by whether you prefer manual labour, your preference in colours, your preference in clothing, make-up, what role you prefer to play in a relationship, your strength, competitiveness and countless other factors... if you say that gender is that then it means nothing. If you want to know if someone prefers to work with systems as opposed to people, or is tall, don't ask if they're a man, ask about the specific factors you care about.
It also implies that certain things are for men whilst other things are for women. You could look at someone who takes charge in her relationship and say "well you're not a REAL woman because you don't stay quiet and cook and clean" and be correct.
 
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Roencia

Member
I haven't read everyone's comments cause of time, but I would like to make a comment to Yokcos. You made a lot of points, but I just wanted to focus on:
Why do we even have segregated lavatories? Well as far as I can tell there is zero good reason
&

splitting people into the two categories of man and woman. Why do we do it?
I'm not making a comment about the difficulties those that are born gay face... and can't control the way their body is or what temptations they face and struggle with everyday. My heart goes out to those that suffer and life hasn't be easy for them.

I want to answer the question above for those that are not in the above category. I'd like to answer Yokos's way of thinking by looking at history, and behaviors today that result from "Let's just let men use a woman's bathroom". The nature of man makes us crude and carnal among other things. We can see this with how prominent pornography is. If you want the hard answer. Rape, murder, deceases, are prominent in societies that accept blindly any behavior without restraint. And believe it or not, there are countries/religions/people that even accept those behaviors... is that what we want?

There is never a stop to how much is accepted. I've read in forums like these with people that identify with animals and trees sexual relationships. These will be more widely accepted later and then the boundaries will be pushed further. Too bad we struggle with this issue unlike the other lifeforms on this planet.

On this forum another man said that people can be of "Fluid gender". I can be a man today, or a woman tomorrow. What happens to the sacred identity of a person if they don't have one?

This is a document written by a church in 1995 before all this family, gender, rights, political talk even started. You may not believe in God, or follow a church, but the words of this ring true to me and I hope they give you some guidance as they have me on this topic. They create such a beautiful purpose and identity for each of us that we can teach our kids.

The Family: A proclamation to the world

I don't want to make anymore comments on this subject. But I hope you find the answers you're seeking.
 
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PsychoFox

Guest
I think there are 3. male, female, and hermaphrodite. what's your opinion? 1? 2? 3? 63? etc. and without attacking anyone, explain why you feel the way you do.

I feel gender is not determined by how we act, the way we think, or our sexual preferences. Just by what our body features include, and by that I only mean private parts. No, not our posture, the shape of our muscle tone, or where our fat grows most. While those things may be influenced by a given gender, I find they don't determine the gender. Just the private parts.

But these are just my personal thoughts.

What are yours?
Biologically, in natural human existence, there are three genders. People are either born with a male gender, a female gender, or hermaphrodite gender.

On the cellular level, there are only two gender chromosomes. The X chromosome and the Y chromosome. So you can lop off or add anything on your body and think and believe you are anything you want, but in your cells your gender is determined by two human gender chromosomes.
 
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PsychoFox

Guest
ya know i suppose if you have a boy who plays with dolls and gets scolded a/o beat for doing so lead to the boy deciding that he is probably actually a girl because of his interests, then we actually could say gender had been influenced by interests. o:
But see, thats the thing. Gender shouldnt be influenced by any emotional, intellectual or psychological aspect.

Gender is influenced by two things. Androgenic hormones and estrogenic hormones. The more androgenic hormones you have through development (even fetal development) the more male you will be, the more estrogenic hormones, the more female you will be.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
You guys have NO idea what you are talking about.

Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed.
http://www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/understanding/gender-definition/en/

And if you are talking about SEX instead of gender then:

The idea of two sexes is simplistic. Biologists now think there is a wider spectrum than that.
https://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Seriously, you people need to read more.
 

Yokcos

Member
"Let's just let men use a woman's bathroom"
No I'm suggesting that the idea of a "women's" lavatory or a "men's" lavatory is dumb.

Rape, murder, deceases, are prominent in societies that accept blindly any behavior without restraint.
Then I suggest not accepting blindly any behaviour without restraint. I am in favour of discouraging rape, murder and deceasing in the strongest possible terms.

I'm not saying that all laws, written and unwritten, should be thrown out of the window; I'm saying that dividing people based on gender, a completely irrelevant characteristic, when they use public loos, a very specific time, is ridiculous. To me, this makes as much sense as having separate doors for tall people and for short people, or having separate vocabulary for left vs right handed people, or having separate parts of the bus for black vs white people. That is to say, very sense indeed.

Edit: Oh hello Nocturne, you ninja'd me.
Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed.
Right, but it's a largely irrelevant trait, no? To me or you, what does it matter if the person standing before you is man, woman, some other gender from their culture... It matters very little and it should not matter at all, lest we start inadvertently dictating what people should do and how they should live their lives based on this nonsense stat.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Right, but it's a largely irrelevant trait, no? To me or you, what does it matter if the person standing before you is man, woman, some other gender from their culture... It matters very little and it should not matter at all, lest we start inadvertently dictating what people should do and how they should live their lives based on this nonsense stat.
Yep, that's exactly what I think and why I quoted that particular line. Gender is a fiction that we have created to "identify" people. It's not based on actual sexual characteristics and as such is plastic and prone to being changed based on the current social and political climate of the society. Throughout the ages, many cultures have had (and still have) multiple genders because their society norms permitted it, and there is no reason to believe that we can't change our own societal norms to accept three or more genders too.

I feel the end of that Nature article on Sex sums it up nicely:
So if the law requires that a person is male or female, should that sex be assigned by anatomy, hormones, cells or chromosomes, and what should be done if they clash? “My feeling is that since there is not one biological parameter that takes over every other parameter, at the end of the day, gender identity seems to be the most reasonable parameter,” says Vilain. In other words, if you want to know whether someone is male or female, it may be best just to ask.
 

Yokcos

Member
So, as I understand it, according to The Who page that you linked, one's gender is defined by whether one wears makeup, prefers to work with people or systems, is aggressive, etc. Which earns the individual the label of, for instance, "lad", earning them ridicule for each of their traits, behavioural or otherwise, that are not arbitrarily regarded as masculine. So you'll end up with lasses being mocked for their height and lads being mocked for having long hair.

This is terrible and probably needs to be stopped.
 

Sammi3

Member
Whenever I get into a discussion about this, I ask the other party to define gender. Some define gender as the sex you were born with being a binary thing: male and female. Others define it as the social gendered position that society assigns people of certain traditionally thought of sexes. So if it's the former, I say 2. If it's the latter, then I say it's more of a spectrum and that different people can assume different roles in different situations that were thought of traditionally belonging to one "gender". But in any argument, as I said in the beginning, it's important to define your terms rather than ending up arguing about the definition of a term.
 

Samuel Venable

Time Killer
Must I quote the OP? C'mon guys... Libtards? Woefully ignorant? Could ya'll try a little harder not to insult each other? This was supposed to be a friendly discussion.
 
When people pop into threads to say "now play nice!" after someone gives **** to someone who deserved it, it always feels like they're low key supporting the person who started it to me....
 

Samuel Venable

Time Killer
When people pop into threads to say "now play nice!" after someone gives **** to someone who deserved it, it always feels like they're low key supporting the person who started it to me....

Except I was also talking to the person who started it. The guy who said "libtards". I don't understand what you're trying to say, I wasn't supporting anyone in my post.
 

Rukiri

Member
seeing the words "science says" and "libtards" in the same sentence always tells you the post is gonna be good
This was a **** post that well...you know what's going to pop in the post so I posted probably what was expected.
There's 3 sexes if you count hermaphrodite which are rare to begin with but do exist.
 

Nux

Member
@Nocturne, if gender can be changed through society, does that make being transgender/transsexual a choice? I'd like to think that wearing a dress or adopting stereotypical female societal roles doesn't make you female; otherwise tomboys would be "male", and all nurses would be "female".
 
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Yokcos

Member
let's say there's a lad who wears dresses and that, enjoys his job as a nurse, is an empathetic and emotionally receptive individual, has fully functional female genitalia and is physically shorter and weaker than average.
Is there any basis to the claim that this individual is a man? If so, what basis? If not, which of the above factors makes you think he's not in fact male?
 

beli_mawrr

Member
I've had a long-standing issue with the "3 genders" thing. When someone refers to Gender they can mean one of 3 things:
  1. They could be "mistakenly" referring to "Sex" IE the body parts, cell biology, hormones, etc.
  2. They could be referring to what's in someone's brain (the way they think of themselves). There's a problem with this which I'll get back to.
  3. They could be referring to the way they advertise what genitals they have, which is socially constructed, unlike the other two @Nocturne. Unfortunately someone who simply advertises as a female while being a male is cross dressing, they also need #2 to be truely transexual.
When most people refer to a transgender person, they're referring to #2. This is entirely in the person's head, so it doesn't really matter. It can also be adequately described in personality. IE there's no difference internally between a very feminine man and a MTF transgender person, the difference comes from how they advertise. The fun part is, #3 is totally, 100% "Socially constructed". Society could at any point decide guys belong in skirts and low-cut halter tops. And that would be that.

Unfortunately advertising the opposite set of genitals is by nature deceptive. So I don't like that.

As for #2, what we currently describe as "gender" is the same as what we describe as personality, with the exception of insisting everyone calls you by the currently correct pronouns. So while I agree someone might indeed have an attack hellicopter personality, they are not attack helicopter gender, as you can't advertise attack helicopter genitals. Therefore I rule out any genders other than male and female. Remember this is not an attack of transexual people, who are in theory advertising the "Correct" genitals.

Since I see people bringing up 3 genders, IE there is a hermaphrodite gender, I have to stop you there. There is no such thing as a hermaphrodite. A person with both sets of genitals will never have both work properly. You can name them as the gender of the working genitals. Maybe one in several million intersex people have ever been able to reach orgasm with both organs, and in NO recorded cases where they can reproduce with both organs.
 
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