Opinion GMS 2 seems more complicated than GMS 1...

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by K12gamer, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. K12gamer

    K12gamer Member

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    I have GM 8, GMS 1 and GMS 2...
    I'm not very skilled at programming (I mainly use DnD)...but I have managed to make
    over 10 games over the past 5+ years.

    I enjoy using GM 8 and GMS 1...but GMS 2 seems beyond my current abilities.
    The best I can do right now is open my GMS 1 games with GMS 2...and hope everything runs...
    because trying to alter them in GMS 2 seems complicated to me.

    Is GMS 1 easier for beginning Game Makers to use than GMS 2 ?
     
  2. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    No, I wouldn't say so. What I would say though is that you should start by doing the different GMS2 tutorials and then create a NEW project in GMS2. Trying to edit an imported 1.4 project without having actually used 2 is going to be a bit tough due to the way compatibility is handled.
     
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  3. K12gamer

    K12gamer Member

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    Thanks...That sounds like a good idea.

    I'll try out the tutorials and try to make a basic game from scratch...
    Example: Pong, Breakout or Pacman
     
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  4. Gamebot

    Gamebot Member

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    Any new IDE will be some what of a challenge. Simply because your not used to it. When I went from 8.0 to Studio 1, immediate reaction was, What is this??? Even though much of Studio 1 was that 8.0 familiar layout, looking through the manual and resources piece by piece to see what was inside it seemed much more complicated. Now looking at Studio 2, Studio 1 is a piece of cake. I my self am still trying to get a grasp on all of Studio 2. What I found useful is watch a tutorial ALL the way through first. Taking notes sometimes helps as well. Then go back watch it again and do it. Please don't be one of those people that do it while watching and leave comments such as:

    "Slow down. I'm trying to type as you speak."

    I would be surprised if you actually learn anything from this. Except to copy and paste then wonder why your project isn't working.
     
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  5. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    That's often true. But the Studio 2 importing feature is still useful when upgrading from v1.4. Once you import your old projects, their resources can be easily added to new Studio 2 projects. This makes it easy to re-use existing graphics, sounds, scripts, etc.

    Of course you still have to modify some GML code to make it compatible with Studio 2. But that's fairly easy on a case-by-case basis, rather than fixing an entire game at once.

    I imported my Studio 1.4 projects and re-named them like "name_archive". Now I can re-write / edit old code snippets as needed, or re-use other resources. Often, the required changes are small.
     
  6. Dave M

    Dave M Member

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    Ive stayed away from GMS2, I just got use to GMS1. GMS2 looks too complicated, for me anyway.
     
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  7. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Not quite true since from my experience, Im still trying to get used to GMS2 in compare to how long it took me to get used to the IDE in GMS1.

    However, like ALL programs, we all start out slow and unfamiliar with the interface, features, and workflow until we finally get a grip of it. You simply just have to practice with the program and get used to it from every experience you gain. It is always best to follow tutorials and play around with the features you find in the program to understand better how they are use until you finally be able to make things quick and easy. You wont do anything good if you only spent 2 hours with the program or a single day. You'll need more time to cherish it so dedicate every single day. Believe me, in the end, it will (probably) be worth it.
     
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  8. Carnivius

    Carnivius Member

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    I got overwhelmed when I tried to learn it by starting a new project but found it much easier to import an already existing 1.4 project cos I felt more comfortable and familiar with things then and the compatibility scripts GMS2 makes automatically were super helpful in getting the game up and running under the new system and I could happily just continue with things while often looking at the compatibility scripts and learning what they're doing and how to use the replacement methods those things that it was looking after for me.

    Though I still haven't gotten around to figuring out the camera system and been just using the compatibility script version of views for now. I'll get to it. I'm just having more fun getting on with the game itself for now. :p

    And yeah I don't think I could go back to 1.4 now. Apart from the obvious room editor limitations of pre-GMS2 versions I'm just more comfy in the GMS2 IDE.
     
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  9. ChaoticSigh

    ChaoticSigh Member

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    I've necroing this but I've found that there are certain things you could do in GMS1 that you can no longer do in GMS2 that make things more difficult as a result. For instance. Being able to plot your sprite origin with the cursor. Or am I just stupid.
     
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  10. CameronScottCreations

    CameronScottCreations Member

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    One thing that IS more complicated in GMS2 compared with it's predecessor is the camera/view system. I suspect this was to make it more compatible with coding 3d games but I think it just leaves the engine with one foot in/one foot out and an overall less convenient experience for programming straight 2d camera systems, although the system has become simplified with some decent tutorials out there. This is one area where I wish they felt more comfortable in their own skin and stuck to their guns/what they are good at but I understand the draw of catering to the 3D creators.
     
  11. Sean Catherine

    Sean Catherine Member

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    I started using GMS2 back in Nov 2017. I had no programming training. I like GMS2 because I use DnD for easy redundant things, and I use "execute common code" for more tedious things. I'll go a month or so with no successes and just making sprites... Then all of the sudden I'll figure something out and I'm putting in 14-hour days on the weekends. This app saved my want of being an artist — I was almost dried up in regards to creativity. You can do it!
     
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  12. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    PlotOrigin.gif
    Works fine for me... :)

    The camera system was developed to expose the underlying methods that previous GM versions used already to create room views. This was not done for 3D but to increase the power and flexibility of cameras and make them more of a resource like sprites or fonts, etc... This new system permits you to do much more than the previous one. For example, you can create multiple cameras at once then in a single view switch between them to create more dynamic cutscenes. Yes, I agree that it's slightly more complicated (and it took me a while to get used to it!!!!), but the added flexibility more than makes up for extra few lines of code required to use them, imho.
     
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  13. CameronScottCreations

    CameronScottCreations Member

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    Would love to see a good example of this dynamic cutscene use in action. Examples always help me run with an idea and really grasp it. Could make for a good yoyoblog post too! ;)
     
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  14. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    Hmmm... Indeed! I'll pitch it to the YYG community manager for consideration. :)
     
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  15. Miradur

    Miradur Member

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    Maybe this help you, from FriendlyCosmonaut:




    Miradur
     
  16. Misty

    Misty Member

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    You are absolutely correct.

    I have no idea how to use the new sprite editor. When I know how to use Photoshop perfectly fine. Photoshop is the industry standard. So it should be as easy to use as Photoshop. The new sprite editor is probably the most frustrating sprite editor I have ever used. I literally can't use it so whenever I need an edit I just import files.

    Here are some other flaws with GM2: I can't click and drag text. For example if I am coding and put "i like blueberry jelly" I can't change it to "blueberry jelly i like" without deleting or copy and pasting.
    There is no search and replace feature either. Which is in the stone ages.
    They modelled the GUI after the Lego Robotics GUI made for children. No longer can I overlap Windows like in Windows. Instead windows have to be spaced very far apart from each other so I have to scroll forever just to see them. The GUI in Lego Robotics worked, because it had small sized blocks of logic. Not gigantically sized blocks that could barely fit in screen.

    And there is no alphabetical sorting for objects or sounds. So if I want to sort objects or sounds I have to do it manually. Wasting hours of my time. So I don't even bother. And since the Lego Robotics GUI is a thing, it means I have to wade through a disorganized list of entities in order to find the one I want to change. Basically the only rational thing is to edit one object at time. Because if you try to edit multiple objects, you will have to remember the exact location of each object in the GUI. And my memory isn't that good, for all I know I might even have autism.

    I find it funny that the focus was put on DnD. But the people who use DnD find GM2 too confusing to use. I think the DnD was very easy to use in GM1.4. I don't know how Gm1.4 could have gotten easier to use. Ironically GM2's attempt was to be easier to use than Gm1.4. Yet somehow is harder to use. I don't know how to use the new room editor either. Although the room editor in GM1.4 was awful so it probably can't be much worse.

    3D cameras are easier in GM1.4 than GM2.

    That's nice. My story is I have been programming for 15 years. Even made some stuff with C++, C#, and Python before. Gm8 has always been the easiest for me. And DnD in GM8 is easy to use.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  17. Mert

    Mert Member

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    If not, most of us here really loved and hated GMS2 at first glance. For me, GMS2 just looked complicated and I was having hard time and felt like I was being torchered up until I got used to the application.

    Now, I can understand feel that GMS2 is comfortable and powerful. The only issue is that the development has stopped and Game Maker literally uses outdated and broken tools. Most of the extensions give warning flags and errors, and they lack some of the core supports that they represent.

    The man in charge at Yoyo Hq must reorganize the team to repolish the Game Maker Core.
     
  18. 11clock

    11clock Member

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    They somehow made GMS2's IDE even worse than older versions. The workspace system is awful and they should have gone the full tab route than this awkward hybrid. It doesnt feel intuitive for programmers at all.
     
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  19. Elodman

    Elodman Member

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    There is search & replace (all) function.
    No scrolling is needed, and hardly any mouse usage.

    When buying a tool, for me it is a priority to read its manual about IDE keybindings carefully.
    https://docs2.yoyogames.com/source/_build/1_overview/2_quick_start/8_shortcuts.html

    Yes, it is rather hard to forget GMS 1's simple, practice oriented IDE, and get used to a new one. Perhaps we'll like it better soon :)
     
  20. Misty

    Misty Member

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    No it is you who is sadly mistaken.

    Search and replace All is not the same as search and replace in code window.

    And there is no reason to get used to an IDE that takes more clicks to do the same job. Clicks is a serious issue that people like to take lightly. But when you spend days and weeks on something, even just 1 or 2 extra clicks adds up to many wasted hours. But GM2 does not only have wasted clicks, but also wasted searching and scrolls, adding up to even more wasted hours. Having to manual search/memorize objects and code really drains the brain and puts a shiv in productivity.
     
  21. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    Actually...

    [​IMG]
    That looks very much like a search and replace tool in the code window... ;)

    And Misty, please stop talking as if your opinion is the only one that counts. It's NOT believe it or not, so please be a bit more tolerant of other peoples view-points.
     
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  22. Misty

    Misty Member

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    And...so what? So you proven me wrong on one of my points? What about the other multitude of points I had? I think its the other way around. People won't agree, and they find one little flaw and declare themselves the winner.
     
  23. Bingdom

    Bingdom Googledom

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    You provided points without any reasoning and/or circumvention. What are we supposed to take from it? GMS1.4 is the best and always will be the best?

    Some of your arguments are because of your own issues, and/or lack of information about the IDE.

    One would argue that one of the purposes of an IDE is to be intuitive - which is true to an extent.
     
  24. Misty

    Misty Member

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    Omg. What about what I said has no reasoning in it????

    This is what I said:
    "Here are some other flaws with GM2: I can't click and drag text. For example if I am coding and put "i like blueberry jelly" I can't change it to "blueberry jelly i like" without deleting or copy and pasting.
    There is no search and replace feature either. Which is in the stone ages.
    They modelled the GUI after the Lego Robotics GUI made for children. No longer can I overlap Windows like in Windows. Instead windows have to be spaced very far apart from each other so I have to scroll forever just to see them. The GUI in Lego Robotics worked, because it had small sized blocks of logic. Not gigantically sized blocks that could barely fit in screen.

    And there is no alphabetical sorting for objects or sounds. So if I want to sort objects or sounds I have to do it manually. Wasting hours of my time. So I don't even bother. And since the Lego Robotics GUI is a thing, it means I have to wade through a disorganized list of entities in order to find the one I want to change. Basically the only rational thing is to edit one object at time. Because if you try to edit multiple objects, you will have to remember the exact location of each object in the GUI. And my memory isn't that good, for all I know I might even have autism.

    I find it funny that the focus was put on DnD. But the people who use DnD find GM2 too confusing to use. I think the DnD was very easy to use in GM1.4. I don't know how Gm1.4 could have gotten easier to use. Ironically GM2's attempt was to be easier to use than Gm1.4. Yet somehow is harder to use. I don't know how to use the new room editor either. Although the room editor in GM1.4 was awful so it probably can't be much worse."


    So congratulations. You proved that I was wrong about one thing...the search and replace feature. Do you want a cookie??? Go on about your tribal victory dance because you proved I was wrong about one little thing.
     
  25. Bingdom

    Bingdom Googledom

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    As I said
    1. You can overlap windows. There's a setting.
    2. You can zoom in/out in the workspace. There are shortkeys to jump your view onto the next window. There's a "recent windows" box on the bottom-right of the IDE.

    Sounds like a slow computer more than anything else. Clicking on things certainly doesn't take up hours after a few weeks.

    How so? How do you circumvent that?

    Welcome to programming, I guess?

    Edit:
    I suppose you meant 'searching and scrolling' as in 'panning in the workspace for assets'. If you did, then you can automatically jump to your object by double-clicking it in the resource tree.

    You can make another "workspace tab" dedicated to that object's events.
    Like this for example
    upload_2019-1-21_13-16-24.png

    Edit2:
    Sorry, I haven't been very coherent. I haven't had much sleep today.

    "Reasoning" was a poor term to use. Some of the issues you've presented are more to do with how you're using the IDE.

    I suggest taking a look at this blog to further optimize your workflow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  26. Misty

    Misty Member

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    This is the only part of this post that makes sense.

    This post.....I can't even....describe....

    For the rest of this post...I have only this to say......
     
  27. RichHopefulComposer

    RichHopefulComposer Member

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    Guess I'm not a programmer then. I love the workspaces, lol.
     
  28. Jabbers

    Jabbers Member

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    I sympathise with those who are not enjoying the changes in GMS2, but I find it hard to agree with them. The new workspace takes some getting used to, but it is far more flexible than what GMS 1.4 had. The freedom to scroll in an open space and setup tabs allows for more content to be displayed and easier switching between resources. It's a nonsense trying to argue otherwise.

    Some of the older members here must be silently rolling their eyes at some of these complaints, because it's all predictably reminiscent of the way people have always complained about new versions of GameMaker. I remember having similar arguments in the mid/late 2000s with people who thought GM5 was superior to the new versions of GameMaker... same sh%# different day decade.

    If you were proficient in GMS 1.4, you can quickly pickup the changes in GMS2. The fundamentals are familiar. You are going to have to put some minor effort into getting used to a new interface and the changes to systems like tiles, views, etc.

    If you spend a few months doing honest work in GMS2 and you genuinely hate it, then fair do's. Otherwise, the whole argument just sounds like an appeal to impatience or some kind of fear of change / unwillingness to learn new things. The people in this thread who complain GMS2 is too hard are insulting themselves, and are more capable than they claim.
     
  29. 11clock

    11clock Member

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    "More content to be displayed"

    You can barely see one object at a time on a 1080p monitor on the workspace. This makes window management even worse than older versions of GM, since now you have to scroll all over the place to get to the objects you want to edit. They should have just made object tabs, or designed the windows to be much more space friendly.

    Seriously, how do you think that this is ok UI design?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  30. Jabbers

    Jabbers Member

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    That isn't how I use GMS2. I stay zoomed in and I pan around using the middle button of my mouse. If I want to quickly flick between resources I'll open multiple workspaces and tabs. You can have more open at once than you ever could on GMS 1.4. The older GameMaker still had the same area available, but didn't have zooming, panning, or multiple workspaces-- just a cluster of windows, which you can still choose to do in GMS2 if you really want.
     
  31. Adrien Dittrick

    Adrien Dittrick Member

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    One thing I hate about GMS2 is the implementation of 3D.

    They completely removed basic d3d shapes, which means everything HAS to be done through vertice buffers and shaders.
    Sure it is like a hundred times faster like this, but getting a simple prototype to work is a pain.
    I made a simple terrain generation thing and gave up halfway when I found out I had to actually model the characters with individual triangles:
    https://twitter.com/AdrienDittrick/status/985106949418217472

    Maybe one day i'll figure out exactly how to make all this work, but for me the MAIN advantage of game maker in general is the ability to make things really fast, sometimes in opposition to actual stability / game speed. If I have to re-learn everything about 3D to make it work (especially since the room editor and collision system are still not meant for 3D) then I might as well pick up a new program like Unreal or unity.

    As for everything 2D, GMS2 has been amazing so far. I love the new room editor. And it compiles way faster than GMS1, which for me counts in the whole "make things faster" advantage.
     
  32. 11clock

    11clock Member

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    The panning is exactly the problem. You can’t even fit one object in the workspace view, which forces you to pan and zoom around to get to other objects, not only that but the windows are a lot bigger in GMS2 than in GMS1. This isn’t intuitive, it is a clusterf***. Workspaces should have been ditched altogether in favor of object tabs. Most everything is a tab already in GMS2 and some can be set to open up as tabs by default, but not objects themselves. They should have taken a note from modern programming IDEs and text editors and gone all the way with the tab design.
     
  33. Gradius

    Gradius Member

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    This is really trivial to do anyway. Just set the coordinate angles, your camera has now changed. Doing this by creating new cameras at those coordinates then worrying about switching which one is active and cleaning them up afterwards is far more work.

    Also got to agree about workspaces being cumbersome at the best of times. Switching between multiple objects and scripts is far more difficult than it previously was. Lots of stuff getting lost off-screen. Scripts/objects not fitting into the window and having to pan around in order to drag the bottom of the window up into view (you can't snap objects flush against each other, objects have these flowchart lines connecting components that just take up space instead of having everything snapped together). Stuff needs to be far more compact and to snap to the window as a whole for it not to be a pain. The floating tabs for stuff like the output window also feel unfinished. If you accidentally close it, it's a pain to get back AND tends not to work properly without a full restart (i.e. output won't show anything at all). The ability to add, reorder, or remove tabs serves zero purpose except to allow users to accidentally remove vital information. Additionally things like the room editor controls will hang around even if you're not in a tab with a room visible.

    The new manual is also an awful experience compared to how vast the previous version was. Now I can no longer launch it when I'm not in GM. The web-browser interface is much slower than the CHM Viewer. It's dependant on internet connection / Yoyo's servers, and frequently just displays a white screen and that's all I get until I restart. Just give me a local copy! There's no need for the manual to be updated except when the IDE/Runner is too.

    It isn't the worst interface possible, and there are frequent glimpses of something quite intuitive. But as it is, it feels novel but unfinished and awkward.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  34. Jabbers

    Jabbers Member

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    I'm using a 1080p monitor as well and I can fit one object in the workspace view at normal scaling, so what you're saying here is untrue.

    The point of workspaces is you can set them up as you please, so you can have objects and event code in different tabs if it suits you. You just need to set it up in your project.

    I don't see how panning is worse than having to constantly open and close buried windows in the 1.4 IDE. In what way is panning a cluster ****... isn't it the opposite by design? I'm hearing a lot of assertions that it isn't intuitive, and yet I'm not hearing why. It's one thing to say that you don't like panning, and another to label the IDE as a failure. I think you're just not used to it and not willing to work in a new development environment.
     
  35. 11clock

    11clock Member

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    I shared you a screenshot a few replies ago on what a single fully open object looks like on a 1080p monitor.

    If you had like a bazillion windows open at once in the old IDE, you were doing it wrong. I never had more than 3 windows open at once, and they all fit on the screen with minimum overlap. In the new IDE, you can only fit one or two with events on a separate tab, and not even one with events sharing the workspace.

    My main argument though is the panning. In the old IDE, it was very easy to move and position windows. In the new IDE, you have to pan the camera around in order to view different objects. Recent updates have added features to help mitigate the problem, but they are merely a bandaid on a bigger issue.

    What they should have done was just have objects open as tabs, or provide the option to. Most things in the IDE can be converted to tabs in the settings, but not objects themselves. If they provided this option, the IDE would substantially improve.

    Also, if you have to “get used to it,” then that is evidence of an unintuitive UI.

    EDIT: Also I imagine you didn’t read Gradius’ comment above, who explains in detail what is wrong with the UI. Of course you are not going to hear why if you plug your ears and ignore it.

    EDIT 2: Unwilling to work in a new environment? I ditched GameMaker years ago and work in MonoGame now, and before MonoGame tried Godot and had a fondness for it (I also tried GMS2 at some point last year for a few months, which is where my current viewpoint stems from), all with very different environments from GMS1 and GMS2. So yes, I am willing to work in new environments, but not the godawful one that is GMS2.

    EDIT 3: Note that I am not trying to praise the GMS1 IDE either. It was also a clumsy IDE, but the GMS2 one isn’t exactly better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  36. Jabbers

    Jabbers Member

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    All that does is demonstrate you don't know how to prioritise information and resize windows. The only reason any of that is off screen is because you insist on leaving the variable definitions window open (which admittedly is quite a large window, but it isn't necessary to have this open all the time). You're meant to define default variables when you setup the object, of course you can just do it the 1.4 way and define them in a create event. I also reject the idea you need the parent window open either, but here is a more sensible view anyway:

    [​IMG]

    You can literally have three objects open in individual tabs if you're scared of panning. I'm still not hearing why panning is a bad thing. I kind of resent having to post the above image because the fun of GMS2 is being able to have lots of information open and pan around, so the insistence on seeing everything at once is missing the point.

    There is a learning curve involved in understanding the biggest UI revamp GameMaker has ever had. To the untrained eye, one could be forgiven for thinking it was an entirely separate game engine. I've been here long enough to know that GameMaker users seem to viciously defend the status quo, and I suspect it's for the sake of familiarity. Who wants to have to learn the quirks of a new engine when they are mid-way through a game project?

    I don't have much to say about Gradius' post because I don't share his concerns. You are both trying to convince everyone that the flexibility of the new IDE is a bad thing because you don't want to have to set it up or freely navigate it, and you seem to find it too hard unless everything is neatly snapped together or ordered in windows. I've never been in an argument where I've had to defend the competence of the opposition before... mental.
     
  37. 11clock

    11clock Member

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    Even with your “fixed” version of my screenshot, that is still exactly one object on the screen.

    Panning is bad because it is an uncomfortable action to do, as someone who tries to minimize panning and scrolling when I work (I even got a 4K monitor at some point to mitigate these actions, but found everything too small for my poor eyes to read and switched back). Basically I don’t like feeling like I am looking through binoculars when I work, and that is what the workspace feels like to me. I don’t like a lot of information to be offscreen, switching tabs is a much easier action to do.

    Yes, you can have multiple workspaces open at once, but micromanaging multiple workspaces is very cumbersome compared to the simplicity of pure tabs. As said, being able to disable the workspace in favor of objects opening in separate tabs would substantially improve the interface.

    In terms of the viciousness of other GameMaker users, note that I don’t even like the old way. Due to being unhappy with both GMS1 and GMS2, I now work with a different environment entirely (MonoGame to code my game, Godot to build tools). My biggest issues with GMS2 are the new IDE and that GML is still so outdated of a programming language it isn’t even funny, not even having proper data containers outside of arrays, no object-scope functions, lack of static typing, scripts not being able to have named arguments so you have to reassign them to local variables for readability, no structs, and so on. It feels more like GMS2 just tried to be a prettier GMS1. They did revamp tilesets and made the room editor much better (being one of the best scene/room editors out there imo), but that simply isn’t enough. A lot more work needs to be done before they can catch up to competitors.

    I feel that GameMaker still does two things that the competitors lack: the vast speed of programming in it allowing you to create a small game in just a weekend, making it fantastic for prototyping and game jams, and its focus on 2D. But at the moment I feel there are too many cons than pros for professional use.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019

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