GMC Jam Discussion GMC Jam 31 / XXXI / Discussion

Discussion in 'GMC Jam' started by NAL, Sep 26, 2018.

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  1. Earth Traveler

    Earth Traveler Member

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    Dang it I missed the deadline by a mile. Too much school stuff and took too long to come up with a good idea.

    Oh well, I'll still finish the game and post it.
     
  2. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    I found a crash in my entry as well, and it finally cropped up today. Looks like this is what I get for only having a few rounds of time for testing --- something that has just under 5% chance of happening might not get the chance to show up. Here's the fixed version plus other fixes: Link

    Given how many of us seem to have regrets about submitting truncated entries, I'll follow suit and release a remastered version later this week. Hopefully I wouldn't get carried away playing with it instead of working on it. The game is strangely addictive, and it might just get even more so the more I add to it.

    Update 2018-12-01: Please see the remastered version on this post.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  3. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    Hey, @FrostyCat, I played your game and it's pretty good, for the kind of game it is. Just a few suggestions (which I wrote in my review but havent posted yet): make it so the player can "unselect" a selection s/he made by clicking that selection again. I found myself confused with the boxes on the screen when I decided against the selection and wanted to see the layout of the game board without a selection made. (Hope that makes sense.) Also, the wait time between the end of the computer's turn and the beginning of the player's turn seemed too long. I found myself slightly annoyed having to wait to click when it was clearly my turn.

    Just thought you might want to give that a look since you're still messing around with it.

    Edit: oh, also, I was horrible at it. Couldn't win to save my life. Lol
     
  4. Oyakiiv

    Oyakiiv Member

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    I will definitely check out your fixed version @The M , now that I've played the broken version I'm interested.

    I'm currently having trouble figuring out how to rate for the theme overcoming all odds...its pretty flexible in its own right, so I guess I just need to see an entry that really pronounces it.
     
  5. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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  6. Micnasr

    Micnasr Member

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  7. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Seems that I'll need to bring forth the old hidden technique last used ten Jams ago, which is ZIP patching. And by "ZIP patching" I mean not only providing files, but also updating the Jam Player data while keeping the existing reviews/rankings intact. I'll prepare the appropriate patch pack tomorrow, once I'm back at my main PC... u_u'

    (seriously, though, there has been awfully many invalid uploads and just slightly bugged games this Jam, especially compared to the number of entries overall...)
     
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  8. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    Already have it downloaded and plan on giving feedback. :) Probably won't start playing the games until Monday though.
     
  9. Acr515

    Acr515 Member GMCJam Champ

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    Right on cue with everyone else's issues, we just stumbled on a pretty nasty audio bug in our own game that didn't crop up in Studio. It occasionally causes multiple instances of the same background track to play at the same time, which is really painful and makes you wanna mute it.

    Here's a new download link (we promise that the audio fix is the only change): http://2xsgames.com/Liquid%20Bacon%20by%20Acr515,%20Ralucipe.zip
     
  10. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Out of simple sportsmanship, I would prefer that this NOT be done as part of voting. Though few in number this time around, competitors who submitted valid, bug-free uploads on their first shot should be rewarded for their diligence and proper execution, and "zip patching" degrades that.

    If we want to give second chances, instead I propose having a "Jam Santa" / "End the Jam Year Regret-Free" follow up event. In this special event, former participants this year may post remastered versions of their own Jam entries this year, perhaps fixing bugs/crashes they later realized or adding back features that were sacrificed in haste, then ceremonially sign off the year with a word of peace. The only prizes for the event would be closure and self-reconciliation. We can open a topic here for these posts and leave it open until 23:59:59 GMT on December 31.

    What do you think about this?
     
  11. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member GMCJam Champ

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    I agree completely. It's not like bugged entries are some unlucky anomaly. They are a result of people uploading their entries before doing any testing of their .exe. Some (but not all) of the bugs in these entries would've been discovered pre-upload by a single run-through.

    Even our own entry had an ugly audio glitch, which we patched and re-uploaded. But we deserve whatever rankings we get on our original version as a result of that glitch, because we didn't adequately test our final product.

    "Zip-patching" would be to undermine the value of the competition, and to punish the people who actually went through the effort to test their games before uploading.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
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  12. Smiechu

    Smiechu Member

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    I also agree... If people get the chance to repair their bugs after uplading, than I would like to have a chance to add features and tweaks which where not possible because of time I wasted on getting rid of bugs. This completely makes no sense and kills the competitive feel of the jam.
     
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  13. Cloaked Games

    Cloaked Games Member

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    Patching the zip simply makes it easier for some of us who would like to play the fixed versions. While it's true those games should've been done correctly to start, I would rather play the fixed versions and simply take into account the fact that they had to be patched by docking a few points in the "programming" category of my reviews. For that, a post with the games that needed to be updated would be nice.

    The alternative for me is searching manually through all of these posts for the people who linked patched versions, downloading those separately and figuring out which game it is so I don't miss any...

    Anyone who doesn't to play any patched versions (which is totally fair) can download the current version of the zip and use that and don't worry about it. Most of you probably have already.
     
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  14. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    @FrostyCat @Ralucipe @Smiechu
    Building up on what @Cloaked Games said about playing fixed versions:

    After patching, the Jam Player specifically tells people that the game has a post-Jam version, and asks whether you would like to play the post-Jam one or pre-Jam one, along with the explanation what got changed. So if you want to play the pre-Jam version or take out some ratings from the post-Jam one, Jam player gives enough indication to easily tell original entries from post-Jam entries apart.

    The exception would be @Micnasr entry that was uploaded, but there were no permissions to view the site; it's a pre-Jam version that has been essentially locked away. It would be pretty cold to disqualify someone from a Jam based on a sneaky mistake like that (it's not like simple download testing would reveal that mistake, because one would download the game as themself and thus not notice problems with permissions). Besides, it probably already has an impact on the rating that the game would be given. ^^'

    I assume that sufficiently many reviewers will probably either remove some points/rank down post-Jam games or base their rating solely on pre-Jam version (alternatively, those who already ranked all games will keep their ratings like that). If so, even with patching the game would be in significantly worse position compared to if it had been made properly right from the beginning - so it's not like sloppy programming and lack of proper tests goes completely unpunished - while at the same time it doesn't completely destroy their efforts when a large chunk of the work put in the game gets locked away and wasted because of a mistake or bug that could be fixed in 5 minutes. (well, I guess a matter of trust is also involed)

    Oh, and also, I specifically refer to post-Jam version that fix these little mistakes that result in unproportionally bad consequences (unproportionally to time needed). When it comes to adding new features and content, including it in a post-Jam patch is a big no-no.

    With the discussion that arose, right now I'm not quite certain whether I'll be making a patch or no. I'd like to get more input from other people (especially participant) whether they're cool with that or not (both when it comes to Micnasr pre-Jam entry that had insufficient permissions and other people's post-Jam entries that involve simple fixes and are explicitly recognised by Jam Player as post-Jam, with an option to play pre-Jam version).
     
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  15. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    I'm fine with whatever is decided. I'm just trying to have fun and share some fun at the same time. The game I submitted is a little more fun when the levels increase in length. All I needed to add was 1 tiny, stinking line:
    distance_score = 0;

    You all can decide what you want to do, how you want to review and vote. In the spirit of community, I know how I'll vote.

    Cheers
     
  16. The M

    The M Member

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    Being perfectly biased, I think it'd be great if people could play the fixed version because, at least in my case, that's where most of my jam time was spent and it'd be a shame if that was all lost. On the other hand, I don't mind if people don't want to rate the fixed version or if they penalize me for it. Fortunately, in my case it's easy to play through the first level, pause to rate it and then continue playing, to separate the "fair" jam version from the fixed one. :)

    Adding micnasr's game should be a given either way as it's not a fixed entry, just an unfortunate one. I guess we should add a heads up in the jam description about access permissions next time.

    Finally, I'll try to play the stable versions of people's games (seeing how I'd prefer people to play my fixed version that's only fair. Besides, those versions are probably more fun for me either way). I will probably keep note of it in my scoring but I doubt the patches will affect my ratings overly much as I tend to value polished gameplay and a strong overall experience. That's not something you can just add in a patch.
     
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  17. dadio

    dadio Potato Overlord Forum Staff Moderator

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    "After patching, the Jam Player specifically tells people that the game has a post-Jam version, and asks whether you would like to play the post-Jam one or pre-Jam one, along with the explanation what got changed. So if you want to play the pre-Jam version or take out some ratings from the post-Jam one, Jam player gives enough indication to easily tell original entries from post-Jam entries apart."

    I really don't know what more more you could want or expect than this.
    Sounds like the perfect solution that allows those who want to play what was submitted before deadline to choose that, and those who are willing to try "fixed" versions play those, all in the one Jam Player.
    Keep up the great work Alice!

    (Also still kicking myself that I couldn't scrape together a few hours this time round to enter... yet again! *dies*)
     
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  18. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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    I really don't mind at all as long as I get 10 bonus points.
     
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  19. Relic

    Relic Member

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    Clarifying there is a way to identify a post jam game from the original bugged entry sounds like a fine compromise. I’ll keep playing and reviewing the original submissions and would expect the same treatment should I be the one with the stupid bug 2 minutes into my game. I told Misty not to adjust her score for my game when seeking more specific feedback as I felt it unjust since she knew more after talking with me. A jam is a competition, but this is a community driven event as well and I’ll respect anyone’s position.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
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  20. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Tbh... I wouldnt count on forgiving games with errors and bad bugs if a jam is actually 10 days long. Everyone had that sufficent time to fix and polish their entries. Mostly its a matter of knowing how to make a game well and fulfill making it before the deadline. Now 3 day jams would be exceptionally fine because its much reasonable that within given 3 days isnt enough to fix several issues in a game.

    Now my personal idea on handling this would be allowing post entries to be considerable for voting but will lose points for not fulfilling before deadline. This could also apply for late entries in general so late entries can have a chance too but must be (obviously) within the voting phase on time.
     
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  21. ghandpivot

    ghandpivot Member

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    It is not a question of polishing entries, nor is it about fixing several issues in a game. On top of that, the 10-day jam argument was so that more people could find a weekend's worth of dev time, meaning that many did not get more time to polish the game. Further more, many of the bugs reported to be in need of fixing are to more or less revert last second quick fixes that broke the game. We're talking everything between seconds to a few minutes to fix them. From this I conclude that it's not mostly a matter of knowing how to make a game well, but rather about stupid mistakes that made it into the final build of the game.
     
  22. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Ok. But I would still remove points anyway if its a late submission. :p
     
  23. Yal

    Yal Member GMC Elder

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    I'm super agreeing on the "people that took jam time to add polish / playtesting should be rewarded" thing, if we start letting patched versions slip through nilly-willy it's just a matter of time before we get microtransactions and lootboxes in our jam games too :p

    Nah, but seriously, making games that are actually playable and managing your time properly are important skills (usually more important than "make a fun game" or "make a creative game" in the field, too). Being too generous with postjam fixes just promotes the wrong kind of behavior (and actively punishes people that put down proper effort into quality assurance).
     
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  24. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Darn, it's still not clear to me whether to patch or not to patch.
    Also, whether to include that unfortunate entry that got uploaded on time, but the page hasn't been made public - because that part has been largely missing from the discussion. ^^'

    Also, please note that when you express that "original entries should be rated" sentiment or "people that got the original version right should be rewarded" one, I'll automatically assume you are against the ZIP patch unless specifically implied otherwise. @Relic 's post is a good example of a post of someone that would rather stick to the original entries but it's clear they're not against ZIP patch (given the way to differentiate between Jam and post-Jam versions and choice to play either).

    Right at the moment, I don't really feel like making any kind of patch anymore, since it seems like a lot of people are against the Jam patching even in the earlier described form. If you wrote a post against rating post-Jam versions but actually find such a form perfectly acceptable, please let me know. There's only so much nuance I can catch... u_u'
     
  25. Micnasr

    Micnasr Member

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    Fair enough man, if people are okay with me being allowed in since I made a dumb mistake and worked hard on it then great but if they feel like it's not fair, it's fine :(
     
  26. Acr515

    Acr515 Member GMCJam Champ

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    Personally, I’m going to second everybody else’s opinions and say a new ZIP should not be made. It undermines the spirit of the jam and punishes those who were able to make error-free games.

    I do think that some sort of centralized location for all the fixed versions of games would be a good idea for those who, after rating a game of that nature, wished to play it in its intended state.
     
  27. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    I am against the zip patch as long as the vote is open. But once it closes, I am open to a comprehensive zip patch afterwards to showcase what the contestants would have done with time to fix reported bugs/crashes, clean up and add back truncated features.
     
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  28. Micnasr

    Micnasr Member

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    I mean, I agree but I put the page private instead of public and I didn't change anything since before the JAM.
     
  29. Ralucipe

    Ralucipe Member GMCJam Champ

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    I'm still against the zip patch, but since this isn't seeing much discussion, I feel that @Micnasr 's entry should not be disqualified if voters choose to rank it. I am planning on playing and reviewing it after all my other reviews are done.
     
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  30. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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    I say we chill out and remember the spirit of the jam. Alice already said people who play the games would be well aware whether or not they were playing the old broken version or a post-jam fixed version. There are only 26 entries and it's *highly* likely only a handful of people will vote - most of which are already involved in this very discussion and understand the situation.

    We are all playing for fun, why not just let the patch happen and if you personally feel like people should vote on the broken versions you can do that. Enough of you are against the patch that your votes will probably swing the result anyway.

    Let's all just relax, have a good time, and let everyone show off the hard work they put in even if it was a little bit late.

    Next time we'll stick a big flashing warning in the games topic reminding people to check for game breaking bugs before the deadline. Until then I think the patch idea is groovy.
     
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  31. Acr515

    Acr515 Member GMCJam Champ

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    I’m aware of this, and I do plan on including your game in my reviews and votes.
     
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  32. TinyGamesLab

    TinyGamesLab Member

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    I'm a believer that the Jam should be about fun, extending your limits but also learning. For this reason, I believe that patched games could be voted upon but should have a penaltie built in (this way the creator will have to choose between the penaltie or the unpatched version). People would evaluate and rank the game as usual, the way the game eased intended to be played.
    I did test my game multiple times during the Jam period and this is part of development. So it's part of the learning curve being penalized for not doing so. At the same time, it should not discourage anyone from creating games again. Even great games can have a serious bug or two upon launching, even after massive playtesting.
    Maybe the penaltie can be something like losing 30% of your total final rank score.
    As per the page not set to public, if the creator can show that the file was uploaded on time I would allow it in this jam.
    For the next jam, have this check in the submission post and if people do it again, penalize it as per patched games
     
  33. Micnasr

    Micnasr Member

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    Thanks guys, that was really stupid from me lol
     
  34. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    Just for the record, the patch idea was dropped in the end. Please carry on with voting... ^^'
     
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  35. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    After reading other views and giving it some more thought, I guess I have to agree not patching being the right call, but my one concern is that players will give feedback on jam versions and ignore the fixed post-jam versions, because it's more time/effort to play both versions, and also easier to miss the fixed versions, since they aren't included in the zip. Meaning some devs likely won't get nearly as useful or accurate of feedback.
    For e.g., something like, "game won't run; can't say anything about it", would really suck if a fixed version allowed the player to actually play as intended, which would in turn allow the player to give truly useful comments to the dev.

    I guess I'll vote based on the jam submissions to keep it as fair as possible for those who ensured their entries were properly playable, but my feedback will have to be on the fixed post-jam versions to give the most helpful comments.

    @Alice Just one question though:
    Does @Micnasr's game get disqualified from voting? If the game is the same and it was only the link that was a problem, shouldn't his be an exception?

    EDIT:
    Oh wait, should've @NAL'd with that last inquiry...? Are you guys dual-hosting? Bruh, I'm confused, ahaha
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
  36. Alice

    Alice Toolmaker of Bucuresti Forum Staff Moderator

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    It's not disqualified from voting, just please download the game on your own. With this single entry, it might actually be less of a hassle than patching, probably...
     
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  37. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    To be fair, would you really want or care about feedback from someone who thinks having to download the fixed version themselves is such a hassle?
     
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  38. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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    That's a shame, but now that it's settled I can post these memes I've been sitting on

    [​IMG]
     
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  39. Micah_DS

    Micah_DS Member

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    I meant time/effort playing both versions of the game, not really downloading them, but I guess your point still stands even then. Though I'm still concerned people will miss some fixed versions.

    ( I laughed so hard at the above post - brilliant )
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  40. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Dang it. Was too busy to get into the discussion and now its settled. Anyway Im gonna provide my opinion late.

    Im not voting (in general speaking) for this jam but if I were, I would never disqualify an entry due to mistaken or issues with download link. The best idea to avoid this situation is to have the jam host (or moderator) resort the problen with the submitor and establish a separate link in the first post to notify users such game is currently available for voting. This is also something that needs to be specify in the jam rules as an exceptional case.
     
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  41. The M

    The M Member

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    @Relic Thanks for bringing up an interesting point. Being unable to go right, with it clearly being the way forward and upward, was very much intentional to emphasis on how helpless you are. Originally I'd planned to have you start playing with a full arsenal of jumps and double jumps which you'd lose after getting horribly beaten by the final boss (which, unfortunately, can only be fought in the bug fixed version of the game) and thrown down, crashing into the cavern after having scrolled past all other areas. You were then supposed to try a jump which would cause the character to rise, then snap and fall back to the ground. Also, by first going left and down (the wrong way) while you're without powers you can then start progressing right when you've gotten the upgrade, which I think adds a little extra impact.
     
  42. Micnasr

    Micnasr Member

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    yeah just install my game from my link at the top and review it :) thanks man
     
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  43. AndrewN

    AndrewN Member

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    Re Snowball in Hell... Just wanted to say wow, and thanks for the positive comments in the review section. This is my first Jam so Im pretty chuffed to have some positive reviews.

    Thanks also for the feedback, and while this was supposed to a throw away game built over one weekend I think now I will develop it further. Based on the feedback there are some obvious improvements.
    1. At the moment their seems little use in collecting snow. Here I will need to make the snow melt faster. At the moment it only melts when you are in a certain range of the lava, therefore if you are high up you don't melt. Also it then becomes a disadvantage to be a big snowball then. So I need to strike balance. I think just having a continuous melt rate would help, plus more objects that would melt you if you got too close. I also wanted to add drips so its obvious you are melting.
    2. More obstacles / enemies.
      • Ghouls / devils
      • Platform obstacles like saws
      • Moving platforms
      • Pipes like sonic
    3. Scoring system.
    4. More levels!
    5. Make level restarting easier.
    6. Mobile version

    Cheers,


    Andrew
     
  44. Toque

    Toque Member

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    I did a lot of mobile dev so it appealed to me. As a Canadian I connect to the snow. It would be a great mobile game.

    I don’t think it needs much. It’s simplicity is its strength. I wouldn’t over complicate it. I would lean toward obstacles over enemies. Unless you give the snowball a more living character feel. (Try a breathing animation on idle).

    The battle to me is growing vs melting. In a sense adding snow is like adding health.
    Obstacles would melt or remove snow.
    Just my thoughts.

    Edit:
    Actually hell/devil/ ghouls could work there too.


    If you need any iOS testing or just chat you can pm me.

    Well done
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  45. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    @HayManMarc Would you mind elaborating a little on your comments for Gambrawl?
    What was glitchy about it? I can't seem to see any issues with that.
    The intro is skippable.

    Wonky how? I know they weren't actual 3D rolling dice or anything but I'm not sure what was wonky about them.

    The rest seemed mostly pretty fair. I was a bit worried about the transitions being long, but the way I coded them made them a bastard to modify heh.
     
  46. Misu

    Misu The forum's immigrant

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    Im really upset about this community. I may spend 10 days actually working on an entry and yet I still dont do a good job on getting anyones appeal. I even notice one person excluded my entry for the voting. Its been the same thing every jam for the past 7 years. This is nothing but a wasteful experience.

    Im gonna play hardball next time and Im gonna make sure I make something you guys cant resist. And im serious about this.
     
  47. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Just finished a remastered version of PHAGE with everything I planned for it in. This contains the missing illustrated help files and the player select menu (which allows you to adjust the difficulty of the AI or play with a friend instead of the computer). Hope you guys like it!

    screenshot_remastered.png screenshot_player_select.png screenshot_help.png
    Note: For the Mac version, you will need to unzip and then unblock the app before it can be opened.

    With that out of the way, I will be getting started on reviews soon. With much fewer entries, I will be trying out a longer-form review format this time around.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  48. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    I'm sorry, I tend to be overly blunt in my reviews. Please don't take offense. I'll replay the game tonight, then send you some details thru PM.
     
  49. SamSam

    SamSam Member

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    Posts:
    19
    @Misu I am Bro' : ). The reviews can not be accurate representations of your work's worth. The world would be so terrifyingly simple. But it is actually complex as crazy. Phew...

    Look at my entry : I worked very hard on it and multiple reviewers ranked it worst game of the jam ^^, but some of them placed it pretty high on their lists.

    Some love the artwork, some s**t on it.

    Three hearts for you : ♥ ♥ ♥
     
    Misu likes this.
  50. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    514
    Oh, I didn't think they were blunt, just very vague and undescriptive. I literally have no idea what you could mean and was just curious on the specifics.
     
    HayManMarc likes this.

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