GameMaker Studio 2 now uses a subscription model, at least for consoles

K

Kuro

Guest
Gamemaker wins hands down, just as soon as someone writes a GML plugin for IntelliJ.
 

kupo15

Member
I'm honestly ok with this. A small price to pay to get on a console and the porting support they offer with it I'm sure is super helpful. I'm looking forward to be able to give back to yoyo when its time to port to consoles for everything they've done. I think GMS is such an amazing product and the work they put into it is astounding. I hope they continue to be around for a long time and the market starts taking them more seriously instead of people thinking Unity is the only way to go.
 
T

The Sentient

Guest
And now, you can export to Xbox console without subscription, through UWP.
Correct.

Did they end up fixing that big ass cursor thing that follows the gamepad that you couldn't get rid of on XBOne?

That was a certification killer right there.
 

rIKmAN

Member
Correct.

Did they end up fixing that big ass cursor thing that follows the gamepad that you couldn't get rid of on XBOne?

That was a certification killer right there.
http://gms.yoyogames.com/release-notes-runtime.html
  • NOTE: You'll need Windows 10 SDK 10.0.14393 or later installed for this update, and you'll need to specify 10.0.14393.0 as your target platform version in Windows UWP options
  • Fixed builds breaking immediately on phones if you didn't have fullscreen mode checked
  • Disabled cursor when running UWP apps on Xbox One.
 

Homunculus

Member
I don't get all the criticism around this. With console exports, we are most likely talking about a small fraction of the total user base, but most important of all, the target is very specific. You can't simply wake up one morning and decide "hey, let's develop / port a game for the console market!". In my opinion, if your target is the console market, you'll have to consider your business choices very carefully. We are not talking about pacman clones or hit the ball here.
Developing quality games has a price, and although you may not consider your time as tied to money directly, you probably should in this case. There's a reason for all the games you find on crowdsourcing platforms. The price of the subscription for the modules should just be seen as a cost you add to the business plan, and as many others said, it does make sense from a business point of view. The alternative probably is not having the exports at all, which is far worse.

I have to say though that the criticism related to a few major bugs (especially in the HTML5 platform) has solid ground in this context, but it's difficult to tell if having to maintain the console modules has an impact on that or not. I've seen a lot of improvements recently in this aspect, and as long as the trend is positive, I'm not really worried
 
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JeffJ

Member
I don't get all the criticism around this. With console exports, we are most likely talking about a small fraction of the total user base, but most important of all, the target is very specific. You can't simply wake up one morning and decide "hey, let's develop / port a game for the console market!". In my opinion, if your target is the console market, you'll have to consider your business choices very carefully. We are not talking about pacman clones or hit the ball here.
Developing quality games has a price, and although you may not consider your time as tied to money directly, you probably should in this case. There's a reason for all the games you find on crowdsourcing platforms. The price of the subscription for the modules should just be seen as a cost you add to the business plan, and as many others said, it does make sense from a business point of view. The alternative probably is not having the exports at all, which is far worse.

I have to say though that the criticism related to a few major bugs (especially in the HTML5 platform) has solid ground in this context, but it's difficult to tell if having to maintain the console modules has an impact on that or not. I've seen a lot of improvements recently in this aspect, and as long as the trend is positive, I'm not really worried
That's all fine and dandy. Once again, however, I ask: why not offer to pay for the support separately?

I really, genuinely and wholeheartedly disdain the extreme lack of transparency since the Playtech acquisition. It makes debates like this literally impossible. You can't really debate with "we're not allowed to do this very logically and reasonable thing that our customers are asking for because of reasons". Ok great.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
And once again I'll say...... Virtually all devs who have a console license have asked for support - and not just about console matters, but other things to help[ them get the game out the door.
If you've ever had 1:1 support about an issue that effects you, then this is where this comes in.

So it's not like it's so "out there" when virtually all pro-devs expect this anyway.
 
Hey everyone, I know this is an older post, but I've been reading through some of your comments and I agree with what a lot of you are saying about the console exports being way too expensive for the average indie. So, I gathered some feedback from some polls I did on Reddit about if people think the console exports are too expensive and out of currently 90 votes,

"No, it's too expensive" was voted 63 times
"I would if it was cheaper" was voted 22 times
While "Yes, I do pay the the Console/Ultimate License" only got 4 votes

So, after gathering feedback of the polls and reading some of your comments, I made a petition on Change.org titled "Petition YoYo Games to Change Terms of Their Console Licenses ($799 a Year Each)" If any of you who still agree that a change in the console export price/terms would be beneficial, then please sign the petition post your comments on the petition.

EDIT
I removed the link to not stir up any arguments.

I also explain how a change in price or terms of the console export license would be beneficial for both YoYo Games and the gaming industry in general.
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Okay, please, don't do this. No petition from Change.org is going to sway YYG into changing their business practices, which are based on a great number of things, most of which neither you nor I are privy to. Do you know how much support and maintenance is required for developers that are targeting console? I can say that it's a LOT. So, if YYG lower the entry level, then they are opening themselves up to an increase in support requests, which means they would need to hire more developers, more support technicians and more QA personnel. And that's just one aspect of the business decisions that I am aware of... but I would assume (and I stress, I am not privy to such things and this pure supposition on my part as a developer) that they have done multiple cost analysis and this is the price they have come up with that balances the potential income with the required expenditure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is something they won't change in the future, or that in principle lowering the price might be a good decision in the long term given how Sony, MS and Nintendo have opened up a lot to independant developers in the last few years, but I do feel it's just a little bit arrogant and presumptuous to think that because 63 people on Reddit want a cheaper licence you can then set up a petition and use it to try and bully or brow-beat the company into making a potentially risky business decision... especially given the fact that you have zero idea of what the reasons for the current price and situation are.
 
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EvanSki

King of Raccoons
Hey everyone, I know this is an older post, but I've been reading through some of your comments and I agree with what a lot of you are saying about the console exports being way too expensive for the average indie. So, I gathered some feedback from some polls I did on Reddit about if people think the console exports are too expensive and out of currently 90 votes,

"No, it's too expensive" was voted 63 times
"I would if it was cheaper" was voted 22 times
While "Yes, I do pay the the Console/Ultimate License" only got 4 votes

So, after gathering feedback of the polls and reading some of your comments, I made a petition on Change.org titled "Petition YoYo Games to Change Terms of Their Console Licenses ($799 a Year Each)" If any of you who still agree that a change in the console export price/terms would be beneficial, then please sign the petition post your comments on the petition.

Petition link Petition YoYo Games to Change Terms of Their Console Licenses ($799 a Year Each)

I also explain how a change in price or terms of the console export license would be beneficial for both YoYo Games and the gaming industry in general.
Okay, please, don't do this. No petition from Change.org is going to sway YYG into changing their business practices, which are based on a great number of things, most of which neither you nor I are privy to. Do you know how much support and maintenance is required for developers that are targeting console? I can say that it's a LOT. So, if YYG lower the entry level, then they are opening themselves up to an increase in support requests, which means they would need to hire more developers, more support technicians and more QA personnel. And that's just one aspect of the business decisions that I am aware of... but I would assume (and I stress, I am not privy to such things and this pure supposition on my part as a developer) that they have done multiple cost analysis and this is the price they have come up with that balances the potential income with the required expenditure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is something they won't change in the future, or that in principle lowering the price might be a good decision in the long term given how Sony, MS and Nintendo have opened up a lot to independant developers in the last few years, but I do feel it's just a little bit arrogant and presumptuous to think that because 63 people on Reddit want a cheaper licence you can then set up a petition and use it to try and bully or brow-beat the company into making a potentially risky business decision... especially given the fact that you have zero idea of what the reasons for the current price and situation are.
Not to mention a petition doesnt mean its a magical demand to a company, its just a list of people saying an idea, which in the business world 9.9/10 times means nothing.
 
The poll is also skewed so that you cannot get any responses from people that think the price is fine if they have not purchased the export modules. Only allowing people to say that they think the price is okay if they have purchased the export is excluding an entire demographic of users.
 
YYG is charging $1,500 a year for console exports because any GM user who makes a game good enough for consoles is going to pay it. Yes, it's more expensive than their competition and that kind of sucks, but GM is great, so...oh well. $1,500 is a drop in the bucket if you're making a serious console game.

Also, about Godot being $5,000 to port to Switch... I have a buddy who's using Godot. Cost him about $20,000 to get his game ported when all was said and done. Good luck with that route if you decide to take it, lol

Yes, I agree that YYG could probably bring the price down or offer a support-free license for less, but they have no reason to. Also, console support is probably a huge pain in the ass for them, YYG is a smaller company, and 99% of their users will never need console exports. They might *need* to charge this much just to make it worth their while. No way of knowing for sure without seeing their balance sheets, hahah.
 
YYG is charging $1,500 a year for console exports because any GM user who makes a game good enough for consoles is going to pay it. Yes, it's more expensive than their competition and that kind of sucks, but GM is great, so...oh well. $1,500 is a drop in the bucket if you're making a serious console game.

Also, about Godot being $5,000 to port to Switch... I have a buddy who's using Godot. Cost him about $20,000 to get his game ported when all was said and done.
Extremely accurate. There's a lot more to consider than the cost of purchasing a license for the engine you use. 1.5k is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of what you have to pay to release on a console. The necessary ESRB/PEGI/USK ratings cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. Localization costs hundreds to thousands depending on the amount of text in your game. Almost all the devkit prices I've seen are at least four figures, and one was five figures. Some platforms (I know Xbox for sure does) require errors and omissions insurance to the tune of at least two thousand.
 

vdweller

Member
Extremely accurate. There's a lot more to consider than the cost of purchasing a license for the engine you use. 1.5k is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of what you have to pay to release on a console. The necessary ESRB/PEGI/USK ratings cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. Localization costs hundreds to thousands depending on the amount of text in your game. Almost all the devkit prices I've seen are at least four figures, and one was five figures. Some platforms (I know Xbox for sure does) require errors and omissions insurance to the tune of at least two thousand.
About ratings, going for an IARC rating is free and it covers many (but not all!) regions, including ESRB, PEGI and USK.

About the devkit prices, without going into specifics, a major one is free and another very major one costs less than $500.

About localizations you are correct, if your game has thousands of words you're in for a rough ride. If your game is popular enough there is the scenario of community/fan translations but you get what you pay for (nothing in that case).

About the errors and omissions insurance, it does not apply any more. This post could have been more accurate if it was made 6 years ago, heh.

Now about the license cost, indeed it's not much since even if you publish a relatively obscure title you will get your money back from the first day only.

The only drawback is when you need to patch a game after one year. In that scenario you still have to pay that money but if your game doesn't sell that much after one or two years then you are in the minus. The best strategy is to pay the license again if you are about to release a brand new title and take that opportunity to patch your other game too in that time window.
 
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About ratings, going for an IARC rating is free and it covers many (but not all!) regions, including ESRB, PEGI and USK.

About the devkit prices, without going into specifics, a major one is free and another very major one costs less than $500.

About localizations you are correct, if your game has thousands of words you're in for a rough ride. If your game is popular enough there is the scenario of community/fan translations but you get what you pay for (nothing in that case).

About the errors and omissions license, it does not apply any more. This post could have been more accurate if it was made 6 years ago, heh.

Now about the license cost, indeed it's not much since even if you publish a relatively obscure title you will get your money back from the first day only.

The only drawback is when you need to patch a game after one year. In that scenario you still have to pay that money but if your game doesn't sell that much after one or two years then you are in the minus. The best strategy is to pay the license again if you are about to release a brand new title and take that opportunity to patch your other game too in that time window.
It's been about 6 years since I've had any kind of access to console dev stuff, so you're probably right, haha! Yes, Xbox One dev kits are free. That's common knowledge and Microsoft is extremely open with that info on their own website.
 

Sybok

Member
"No, it's too expensive" was voted 63 times
"I would if it was cheaper" was voted 22 times
While "Yes, I do pay the the Console/Ultimate License" only got 4 votes
How many of these 63 (+22) people have released anything on to a console? My guess would be zero.
How many are kids who don't have any console worthy games? My guess all of them.

Take away those 85 people who haven't developed for console before and you are left with 100% clean sweep of votes for people who are happy with the price.
 

GameDevDan

The Jam Host
Moderator
GMC Elder
As others have said - the license cost pales in comparison to the other costs associated with development. This is the same for every platform tbh.

Want to publish on iOS? You're gonna need a Mac and several iPhones / iPads to test on.
Want to publish on Android? You really should have a wide range of physical devices to test on (although I'm sure most people don't)
Consoles? Dev Kits - can't go into detail for [redacted reasons] but some console devkits do cost money.

Not only that but if you're in the game professionally you really should have QA on board, localisation, some kind of marketing spend. By this point the cost of the GM license starts to look incredibly reasonable.

However if your game is really REALLY truly good and you just genuinely cannot afford to get it over the line - well then there are always publishers out there who absolutely love to pump out indie games by the handful (Devolver springs to mind).
 

gnysek

Member
Short FAQ:

- I understand you already have devkit? As even if YYG would sell this licence for 1$, you still can't get it without that. And they don't come for free, there's no way of getting them for 0$, as there are many additional cost to everything.
- As a reminder: UWP on xbox still also requires some small fee (I just bought it last month)
- You know, that you can create your game first, AND IF IT'S READY start to test it on console and fix bugs? That would help you to save a lot of money, and you don't need to do it for 3-4 years, but week or two might be enough, if game works already on other platforms without bugs
- why would you need 3 or 4 exporters ? you could make only one person responsible for PS4/Xbox One/Switch conversion
- if your game is good enough, it will earn 1500$ in one day, allowing you to buy license, you don't need to release game on same day as on Windows/Mac
- if your game is good enough, you can earn this money from Patronite, making live streams of developing it

I don't understand why you need this before there's even a slight chance, to have a game which anyone would like to play. If the game is good, you will for sure find a money to export it even before release date, believe me. There's kickstater, patronite, private investors... lot of possibilities. But you're crying before even made something.
 
Okay, please, don't do this. No petition from Change.org is going to sway YYG into changing their business practices, which are based on a great number of things, most of which neither you nor I are privy to. Do you know how much support and maintenance is required for developers that are targeting console? I can say that it's a LOT. So, if YYG lower the entry level, then they are opening themselves up to an increase in support requests, which means they would need to hire more developers, more support technicians and more QA personnel. And that's just one aspect of the business decisions that I am aware of... but I would assume (and I stress, I am not privy to such things and this pure supposition on my part as a developer) that they have done multiple cost analysis and this is the price they have come up with that balances the potential income with the required expenditure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is something they won't change in the future, or that in principle lowering the price might be a good decision in the long term given how Sony, MS and Nintendo have opened up a lot to independant developers in the last few years, but I do feel it's just a little bit arrogant and presumptuous to think that because 63 people on Reddit want a cheaper licence you can then set up a petition and use it to try and bully or brow-beat the company into making a potentially risky business decision... especially given the fact that you have zero idea of what the reasons for the current price and situation are.
Well, as EvanSki has mentioned, this is not a "magical demand." I'm just exercising my right as a consumer of a product I use, to hopefully get a beneficial outcome for the both of us by reaching a mutual agreement.
It's just the basis of my argument, is that I don't know why YoYo Games charges developers upfront, vs waiting for them to reach a certain income milestone, like Unity and Unreal. That, in my opinion is a sure way to detour first time console devs who want to actually use all of the exports in the Ultimate License.

This is not like dumping tea into the harbor. I'll still use GMS2 (despite it's cost, eventually) for the fact that it's easier to use than the others for 2D games. I haven't used any filthy language or try to "bully" them into a decision just based on my experience or reasoning. It's no crime to try to get a group of opinions. This forum is over 3 years old, so if YoYo Games where going to change their terms they would have listened to the people in this forum. Again, I was just voicing my opinion.

Also, yes, I do know that Reddit users have no actual authority or proof of license or development, just because they voted on a few polls I made, nor, I don't know why the same 90 users didn't also sign the petition.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Well, as EvanSki has mentioned, this is not a "magical demand." I'm just exercising my right as a consumer of a product I use, to hopefully get a beneficial outcome for the both of us by reaching a mutual agreement.
Ah, but it is! You haven't contacted YYG personally on a 1:1 basis to reach this "mutual" agreement (at least, if you have you don't mention it). You are relying on peer pressure from a group that your are trying to form by creating the petition first... so it's not "mutual" in any way. Note that I do agree 100% that you have an absolute right to request improvements or suggest different strategies - and people contact YYG daily through the support desk and here on the forums with their ideas... And believe it or not, things have been changed because of these contacts as YYG generally welcomes friendly feedback and reasoned criticism. I know for a fact that a lot of the new features coming in 2.3 are a direct result of people being unhappy about the lack of certain features and contacting the devs to tell them about it.

I don't know why YoYo Games charges developers upfront,
Exactly. ;)

I haven't used any filthy language or try to "bully" them into a decision just based on my experience or reasoning
Sorry, but I don't agree. Forming a petition against anything is a measure designed to put pressure on someone or some organisation to do something they either don't want to do or aren't currently doing, based on the sheer volume and number of people who sign the petition. In this case, the fact that a petition is even created automatically seems to me that this is an antagonistic situation, where you are proactively encouraging people to participate in an attempt to pressure the company into doing something that YOU want, and not what THEY want, as they'd have done it by now if they wanted to or were able to.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people have these opinions and may even agree with some of the points raised, but just as you are free to make petitions, I am free to point out how I feel about it. ;)
 

Sabnock

Member
Isn't the cost somewhat dictated by the Sony and the other console makers?

I haven't read all of this thread as I need to ensure I put what is left of my life to good use so if anyone has already answered this I apologise. šŸ˜
 

Amon

Member
Sorry, but I don't agree. Forming a petition against anything is a measure designed to put pressure on someone or some organisation to do something they either don't want to do or aren't currently doing, based on the sheer volume and number of people who sign the petition. In this case, the fact that a petition is even created automatically seems to me that this is an antagonistic situation, where you are proactively encouraging people to participate in an attempt to pressure the company into doing something that YOU want, and not what THEY want, as they'd have done it by now if they wanted to or were able to.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people have these opinions and may even agree with some of the points raised, but just as you are free to make petitions, I am free to point out how I feel about it.
;)
I love this post.
 
I use and pay for the console exporters, my small company released 3 games for Switch, 2 for XB1 and soon we have the same games for PS4 too. You don't need to pay a full license for console for all your team you just need one and you can just buy when ready to publish. Nintendo Kit is not Free, Sony is not Free and not cheap, Microsoft is different, is free but not for everyone.
If you are really interested to publish a game for console you can create your game and when ready, buy a Kit for the machine and buy the exporter license or contact some company like mine who own the license and make a deal to publish the game. I'm not saying me, there are many companies around using GMS2 and console exporters like this you don't have to invest anything and if your game will make enough money for the next project you can choose to go by yourself. Making a game is not all, without many other things like translations, QA test, advertisement and a strong Marketing program you risk to not sell. 1500$ is the minimum, language translations could cost 1000$ for 5 languages, marketing could cost much more, dev kits will cost in total much more than the license so don't think you buy the license and that's it.
 
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