OFFICIAL GameMaker Learn Page

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by rmanthorp, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Hey all,

    Just wanted to drop a quick post to highlight our new Learn page! It's something we've been working on for a while and I'm so happy to get more community content highlighted on our official pages. This will be an ongoing, growing and evolving page. There are a huge amount of great tutorials, tips, guides, and examples out there for GameMaker and we want to do our best (with your help) to highlight these as much as possible.

    So here's the start. We'll have some more information soon with a proper launch announcement and a way to submit content in the future. For now, if you have something big you think we should consider, feel free to drop a message here.

    Thanks!

    https://www.yoyogames.com/learn
     
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  2. True Valhalla

    True Valhalla Full-Time Developer GMC Elder

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    It's a decent start, although it highlights how few good content creators there are for GMS2. When I was learning GameMaker 10+ years ago there seemed to be so many more resources available. Today GMS2 is harder to grasp and less accessible to beginners.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  3. matharoo

    matharoo Udemy Instructor

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    I make Udemy courses. Is that page just for free resources or will there be a Udemy section too?
     
  4. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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    Nice. You should take stuff from the actual YYG blog and link to it from there also. Would beef up that section a bit and also, if Learn was the first place I landed, I might think that was all you had when there's a wealth of tutorial-ish info on the blog page! (e.g. that recent post by Greg Lobanov on how Wandersong was made is gold).
     
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  5. gnysek

    gnysek Member

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    Hope it won't end like YoYoLabs ;)
     
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  6. immortalx

    immortalx Member

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    There seems to be a typo in GML Tips and tricks #6
    "var = seconds_since_last_frame" should be "var seconds_since_last_frame"
     
  7. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Sure! We'd be happy to feature full courses as well.
     
  8. Cloaked Games

    Cloaked Games Member

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    Nice, cool.

    Would you consider linking this forum under other resources? Specifically, the tutorial section which has a lot of good tutorials. I guess though you're focusing on only the highest quality tutorials so I guess it makes sense not to, and instead link to specific ones that are submitted for review or however it works. https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?forums/tutorials.15/
     
  9. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Great suggestion! I did mean to add a GMC link, so will mark that down.
     
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  10. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Can you PLEASE remove HeartBeast's RPG tutorial from the Learn page? His use of the physics system in that tutorial is completely inappropriate, and I've lost count of how many rookies he confused beyond repair on the Q&A section. Getting muddled on the difference between traditional movement and physics-enabled movement is NO way to start learning GMS 2, and YoYo should NOT endorse bad technique just because the instructor is friendly.
     
  11. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    I have a number of intermediate level tutorials I would be honored to see on that page, such as this tilemap collision tutorial, or this introduction to the camera and gesture events.
    I also have a couple more advanced tutorials such as this, or this.
    (arguable the tilemap collision is more advanced coding, but it seems like a more basic tool to have)
    The 'learn' page seems like a great initiative and i'm excited to see where it could go in the future.

    Given the large number of tutorials out there already, and the growing number of content creators, I think it may be worth to have a sort of index, separating each tutorial by topic and skill level.

    Keep up the great work!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  12. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    I have your tutorials on my list, I just need to review them :)

    We definitely want to get it into a state in which we can allow for filtering and ordering! Thanks.
     
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  13. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Then can you PLEASE reconsider striking HeartBeast's RPG tutorial off the list, and also drop his platformer tutorial from consideration?

    I and several other Q&A responders are at our wit's end when it comes to cleaning up after inappropriate physics system habits taught in that tutorial. We are sick of teaching rookies not to man-handle phy_position_x and phy_position_y constantly. We are tired of telling rookies that functions like place_meeting() and position_meeting() live in another world. We are disgusted at the number of topics like this, this and this recurring at an alarming rate, all of which stemmed from this scum of a tutorial. We don't want it promoted any more than it already is, period.

    If YoYo wants to encourage learning GMS 2, perhaps it should start by NOT pointing rookies towards tutorials with serious known defects, and value proper technical coverage over perceived friendliness.
     
  14. FlameRooster

    FlameRooster Member

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    The farming RPG series definitely isn't for beginners, lol. That's more like intermediate level. The smooth camera follow tutorial is a heck a lot easier than the farming RPG series. But that's just what I think.
     
  15. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    We'll take a look. I understand you have frustrations but you are coming at this in a very aggressive manner consider how many people have gotten off the ground with help from HeartBeast's tutorials. This is the first time I've seen them hit with such a negative light as we've been told often, how he's helped (some pretty well known) people get their start.

    A genuine concern is one thing, but this teardown including the use of terms like 'scum of a tutorial' is not something I like seeing. Ultimately though, I appreciate your comments and will give this a bigger internal discussion/review. Thanks.
     
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  16. GameDevDan

    GameDevDan Your Next Jam Host Moderator GMC Elder

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. SnortySnoopy

    SnortySnoopy Member

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    Wonderful. I hope all these are added to GMS2 - START PAGE for access convenience with source files.
     
  18. TsukaYuriko

    TsukaYuriko Q&A Spawn Camper Forum Staff Moderator

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    The typical tone aside, FrostyCat has a valid point. This is the official learn page, not a tutorial collection. It is what I presume to be what we should direct newbies who are trying to learn how to create games in GMS to, therefore it should certainly not teach newbies the basics improperly. It would reflect badly on the intention of presenting GameMaker Studio as a tool used by professional developers. Whether a certain tutorial author creates good tutorials on an average basis should not be taken into consideration on an individual tutorial's basis - there is a difference between linking to an entire channel (recommending the author) and linking to a specific tutorial (recommending specifically that tutorial).

    Anything recommended on this page will be taken at face value by new users who don't yet know any better than to follow what's being recommended to them (on the developers' website, nonetheless). If we're going to have an official learning resource link list, we should be recommending best practices.
     
  19. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Yeah, I do totally agree. I was unaware of this particular issue and am investigating further. Thanks again because I'm coming at this without knowing everything, so this stuff really does help. I just couldn't help but read the initial posting as somewhat of a personal vendetta on what appears to be hard work. Sorry.
     
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  20. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Since I was the one who raised the point, the burden of proof should be on me. Allow me a moment to present some evidence (from the first 10 episodes alone for brevity):
    • Part 1 (16:33): This is where he turned on physics in the room to "simplify" collisions. As many of his followers learned later, for games not involving Newtonian physics, having to counteract automatic behaviour later and not having access to classic collision functions is a huge price to pay.
    • Part 1 (23:05): Here is the first time he man-handled phy_position_x, and he repeats the same in the other directions for the next few minutes. Handling continuous movement in the physics system by jumping positions like non-physics movement is a BIG no-no. He also suggested that semicolons are completely optional, and you should know quite well that the current compiler isn't 100% reliable when they are left out.
    • Part 2 (3:00-9:20): More of the same phy_position_x and phy_position_y man-handling. There's more of the same reinforced in other episodes, but I'll stop repeating myself here.
    • Part 5 (3:40): Here he references x and y from a physics-enabled object. This sends the wrong message about the actual interoperability of physics and non-physics movement in general.
    • Part 7: Throughout this episode, he checked a single hard-coded gamepad ID. Situations where the first connected gamepad wouldn't be 0 are well-documented.
    • Part 8 (16:15): Here he used instance_create(), but that is no longer available to any rookie starting with GMS 2.
    • Part 9 (8:10): Here is the same physics/non-physics variable mingling again. There's more of the same reinforced in other episodes, but I'll stop repeating myself here.
    • Part 9 (10:48): Here he demonstrates first-hand one of the things that need to be counteracted manually with the physics system on. I don't see how this is a simplification over non-physics movement.
    Throughout the tutorial series, he repeatedly dangle-teased traditional movement variables in front of the viewer, then pulled it back saying it won't work with physics. While this is a fact, this needlessly denigrates the purpose of non-physics movement.

    I am basically vomiting in my mouth right now trying to point out the biggest offenders, but I had to if I were to get him off his platform.

    HeartBeast's tutorial is one of two that I have bad blood with (the other being the old PHP high score tutorial by Destron), because inappropriate physics system usage and confusion over it mushroomed within weeks of its release. It got worse after a whole class of students last year was recommended to start with it. In no time flat, they ALL man-handled phy_position_x and phy_position_y, had huge problems with it outside tutorial context, and GMC responders like me had to clean after HeartBeast's slack. If YoYo continues to bestow official status on this tutorial, the mess would be much harder to contain, and it won't stop at the end of a school year.

    One of the reasons why I dislike video tutorials is that its watchers almost always carry virtually plagiarized work as a badge of pride and stay ignorant in basic skills --- basic variable scoping, basic events, basic debugging, even basic GML. It's almost like having no foundational knowledge is somehow normalized or even fashionable. As of today, the Learn page addresses NONE of these concerns. I'm open to a change in my attitude, but first I need to stop seeing questions demonstrating the same lack of basics on the Q&A boards.
     
  21. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Appreciate the breakdown.
     
  22. gnysek

    gnysek Member

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    @FrostyCat I think that handling manually phy_position_x (etc), may be taken from "Angry Cats demo", which was done for GDC in 2012 by me, and was a bypass to a alpha-version of physics engine (physics were still in work, and demo was made in <8 hours to proof that physics are working, so I got <8 hours of experience with it and it was a first ever made game with physics in GMS). So it may be my fault that somebody suggested it should be used this way, while it should be used with care and not teached to new users as a proper way - it was a solution for experienced users only ;) It was fixed in next versions of demo from what I remember, after physics engine became stable.
     
  23. atmobeat

    atmobeat Member

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    Is the learn page dead? I've seen some excellent tutorials that should be on that page. MirthCastle's depth sorting tutorial is an essential for at least top-down style games. Is there somewhere to make new submissions? The "here" link in the OP doesn't go anywhere.
     
  24. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Here, meaning this thread. We'll have an announcement next week with a proper submission process.
     
  25. True Valhalla

    True Valhalla Full-Time Developer GMC Elder

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    I'd like to personally vouch for HeartBeast's tutorials if no one else will. He's a well-spoken teacher and the exact type of introduction to GameMaker I would want as a beginner. The other comments in this thread are blatantly mean-spirited and discount the sheer commitment Ben has made to producing approachable tutorials for both GMS1 and GMS2. He's provided more value to GameMaker beginners than anyone commenting here (by a mile).

    I hope YoYo Games and the community continue to support his work.
     
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  26. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    I think what would be really beneficial to everyone would be an actual established "best practices" officially put forth by YoYoGames. For example, I happen to know that Mike and Russell loathes the existence of functions like place_meeting() and would rather remove them if given the choice. Now, if YYG officially promotes tutorials using such methods that are actively discouraged by core tech developers, then there's an inherit mismatch. This is just a small simple example, but it easily expands into many areas.

    If YoYo are serious about establishing an officially condoned learning resource like this, I think it would be incredibly valuable to actually bring some core tech devs (like Mike and Russell) together with Mark to write up a sort of guideline for best practices, dos and dont's for basics such as collisions and other rudimentary routines that would be relevant to teach in the most "correct" manner to a beginner, to set them on the brightest course.

    This would also make it much more likely to avoid a situation where someone follows a tutorial officially promoted by YoYoGames, but is then later told "you shouldn't be doing it this way". There needs to be more unity in this sense.
     
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  27. Toque

    Toque Member

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    Exactly. I’m learning GML and it’s a bit of mish mash of stuff. I was surprised there wasn’t a course or thorough official GML tutorial series. Yes there was official tutorials.

    I would be happy to pay for it.
    I wonder what teachers are given to teach GM? What students are given?

    The learn page is great progress.
     
  28. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    I will NOT support any of his work that directly undermines mine, which is Q&A on the GMC. As I said, I am TIRED of cleaning up after that one tutorial. If HeartBeast can update his tutorial to GMS 2.x and stop promoting abuse of the physics system, I will happily let this one go the same way I did for Destron's PHP tutorial. I am also open to including any of his other tutorials that are directly applicable in GMS 2, and DO NOT man-handle phy_position_x and phy_position_y or commit any other obvious technical faux-pas.

    How about adding "must be directly usable in GMS 2" to the requirements?

    I looked at some of the other tutorials on the list, and many of them come from older versions of GM, and require historical expertise and specific adaptation to work. The inclusion of Derek Yu's GM tutorial is by far the most egregious, with a legacy UI that looks nothing like the current version and is from a decade ago. I don't have anything against him and he has done nothing wrong for his time, but YoYo encouraging an unadapted version of it as an official resource for learning GMS 2 is a big mistake.

    Using tutorials across major rewrites of GM is a common source of needless rookie confusion in GM user circles, and I witness this on a regular basis. For example, I cannot believe that even at the 2-year mark for GMS 2, I still regularly see questions about why instance_create() doesn't work. Is it the fault of the author? No, that function was current for its timeframe. But if it is on the official learning list, the blood would be on YoYo's hands for indirectly endorsing that function, when the target audience is likely GMS 2.x.

    Is having to troubleshoot esoteric version-to-version differences really something YoYo wants in its official learning experience?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  29. atmobeat

    atmobeat Member

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    Ha, my bad! I agree with FrostyCat about that specific tutorial but HeartBeast has plenty of stuff worth looking at. I can already see the challenge of gathering tutorials and trying to filter the bad practices from the good given the proliferation of video tutorials, but having a trusted place to go to get good tutorials organized by topic would really be worth it for the community. I've probably spent too many hours watching tutorials rather than code, but they have helped me tremendously.
     
  30. immortalx

    immortalx Member

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    I'm also a recent newcomer that was willing from the start to learn the "proper" way, so here are a couple of points:

    I've watched plenty of video tutorials that have been incredibly helpful and I thank each and everyone that has made one. Scripting, shooting and editing a video is no easy task. I have many many favorites, but at the top of my list is Friendly Cosmonaut (no affiliation). And it's for no other reason than its "format". Straight to the point, almost 100% content. There's no single video that I had to skip several minutes to get to the meat.
    I was very happy to see her videos on the learn page, so that's a point to the right direction.

    However, I'll have to agree with FrostyCat in regards to video tutorials in general. I understand video tutorials is the trend nowadays, but there's no replacement for a good written tutorial. YellowAfterLife's page, for example, is a gold-mine. There's so much information packed in a single page: Interactive demos, hand-picked code snippets and images for the topic in question, a downloadable project file and, most importantly, text! For non native speakers (like myself), text makes much more sense compared to spoken English. So please do include more written tutorials, especially by those that have proved to be masters of the language.

    Lastly, the official forums. I'm middle aged and I learned decades ago that the ultimate library for any community is the forums. I also learned to appreciate those running the forums. And by that, I don't mean the company behind it, but the top contributors and moderators who spent unspeakable amounts of their time for free.
    For some reason, companies do not usually value those people too much. And that's a really really terrible mistake. I can name at least one game engine (I won't) which fails miserably at that, despite being quite powerful. So please give these people the credit they deserve and listen to their requests. It's certainly them who know what to ask for and drive GM forward, not me or other newbies.
     
  31. Toque

    Toque Member

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    Cosmonot videos are great. Professional and well done.

    I’m older and traditionally educated to textbooks. Everyone learns differently.
    It would be nice to have both. Text and videos. The manual is an invaluable reference but not a teaching manual.
     
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  32. Cloaked Games

    Cloaked Games Member

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    I'm inclined to agree that the learning page should probably only include resources compatible with GMS2, considering GMS1 isn't even supported anymore by YoYo who is hosting this page of tutorials. (Much less GM8). That's not to say those outdated tutorials aren't useful resources: for experienced users, familiar with the differences between GMS1 and 2, tutorials are great for picking up general concepts or even code by making the necessary modifications to the systems presented. But as an official learning page, it's important to note most of those users do not have that ability, as evidence by the amount of people posting questions about how to do that. instance_create() is a good example of that.

    As for a "best practices" sort of thing, that might work well, my only concern is that in many ways such thing is fairly subjective. But I definitely think an effort should be made to ensure the tutorials used on the learn page are not using methods of code that commonly lead to confusion among new users. I don't know how to judge that though, objectively.
     
  33. sp202

    sp202 Member

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    @JeffJ Curious to know what Mike and Russell would rather have us use instead of place_meeting.
     
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  34. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    This will definitely be part of the submission process going forward. Some of the more legacy tutorials on there had come up in many places, enough for me to consider for the initial version, but we will look to replace these going forward.

    Thanks for this perspective, really nice to see!
     
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  35. gnysek

    gnysek Member

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    I hope that there will be more written tutorials there too, as I HATE youtube ones. A experienced user, usually only needs 10-50% of tutorial, and just needs to copy some code which he understands in 5 seconds, skipping the rest. Watching 30 minutes video just to get 5 lines of code is just boring... :)
     
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  36. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    :(
     
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  37. kupo15

    kupo15 Member

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    I love your tuts, Wolf! :D
     
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  38. Toque

    Toque Member

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    New people need the video tutorials.
     
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  39. immortalx

    immortalx Member

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    Oh I like @GMWolf 's videos too! It just happens that his content is intermediate to advanced level (at least relative to my level) and its only now that I'm starting to understand most of it.
    I just applied his idea of "Structs using Arrays" in my project and it became so much easier accessing array indices using plain words!
     
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  40. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Member

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    Just throwing my 2 cents in regards to video tutorials.

    As someone who learns from youtube videos - and who is still learning to this day - I can understand why tutorial videos are hated. Setting aside the people who use code in ways they shouldn't (see frostycat's explanation on this above) there are too many videos on youtube that use outdated versions of GM and as a result there are video's that were made as far back as 2007 that are the first ones to be found at the top of the search results when looking for guides. Searching for "Game maker blood tutorials" on youtube is a good example of this.

    Frankly there are people out there who learn better from watching youtube videos than reading articles. There are those out there who prefer to have the code given to them so they can "dissect" the code to understand it better. Again, there is no excuse for bad code, but people do learn differently and process things in their own way. All methods from videos to articles are valid and can help people one way or another.
     
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  41. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    I personally love written tutorials actually, I don't tend to follow video tutorials.
    That's why I try to make 'information' videos rather than code tutorials these days...
    So I understand .
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  42. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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  43. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    Here's another issue that I recently found with the official Learn page: The entries targeting beginners.

    If I'm a beginner, chances are that I would NOT YET spend any money on something I know nothing about, and that means I would be subject to the Free version's asset limit. For posterity, here's the Manual's description of it:
    At a cursory glance, several beginner-level tutorials on the Learn page either blew right through the Free version's asset limit, or came so close to it at the end that there is next to no room left for independent exploration. It's basically lining up rookies to walk into a glass wall. If a tutorial on that page requires a paid license to finish, it should be clearly marked to avoid surprises.

    It's up to you to decide what this is an indictment of: improper curation of the Learn page's roster, the Free version asset limit being too low, or both.

    PS: And for the record, why on earth is HeartBeast's RPG tutorial still there?
     
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  44. rmanthorp

    rmanthorp YoYo Games Staff Admin YYG Staff

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    Thanks for the concern. We have ensured the tutorials are tagged correctly when they are trial friendly and we are looking into filtering options down the line.

    HeartBeast's tutorial is no longer there? It was removed from the main page after our last discussion...
     
  45. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    Are they still under review or should I resubmit my videos through the new system?
    Or did they not pass the bar?
     
  46. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    I don't seem to be able to see any tags?

    Think again.
    hbrpg.png
     
  47. Gunner

    Gunner Member

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    @rmanthorp
    Just throwing a vote for HeartBeast.

    I know I'm nobody on this forum, compared to the superiority of the almighty @FrostyCat. I just want to point out that me including I bet tons others STARTED using gamemaker because of HeartBeast. You need to realize how many views on his GM tuts bring people to this community.


    Yes his tutorials are far from perfect from a technical standpoint, but that's why we're here, to correct them! They can be directed to manuals, more tutorials, etc. They can learn. The most important thing is that they started. Removing them makes us not to have to answer their noobish newcomers questions, but what's better that or no newcomers at all? If he can bring many potential newcomers to GM because his tuts are interesting enough, I think you need to consider this as well. This is true from a business perspective for GM as well.
     
  48. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

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    You are dealing with an OFFICIAL tutorial list, not an informal suggestion on a forum post. As an authoritative reference, touchy-feely things like friendliness or rookie relations MUST NOT take precedence over technical correctness. Anything with major technical flaws has NO place on it.

    TsukaYuriko's point is exactly the one I'm trying to make, and rookies like you need to listen why we're concerned.
    Besides, that video has been driving traffic long before the Learn page was born, so HeartBeast can afford to (and deserves to) lose this one link. And I don't have beef with the other HeartBeast tutorial on the Learn page, just the RPG one.
     
  49. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    Posts:
    290
    I completely agree. I checked out several of his tutorials, and I get why they're so popular - he's clear, to the point, user friendly and overall very likeable, and I am genuinely happy that he's brought in so many new GM users. That is awesome. To a degree, I even agree with Gunner's point - when I was starting out at 14 (and GM youtube tutorials weren't a thing - God, I sound old) I honestly didn't care at all about being "correct" - I just wanted results. Had those tutorials been around back then, I'd have been just as much on them as every other new user. I totally get it. And I don't think anyone here is saying those tutorials shouldn't exist.

    However, for any sort of official material, there must be a higher standard when it comes to promoting best practices. There is, should and must be a very distinct difference between what people seek out on their own in an unofficial manner, and what's presented in an officially condoned learning resource. That's the point here.
     
    gnysek and CameronScottCreations like this.
  50. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    3,184
    Heart beast makes great tutorials.
    There is no denying that!
    I don't think frosty wants Heartbeast to be removed from the learn page, just that one tutorial.
    And I agree; the tutorial doesn't teach great practices and I have seen a significant number of people on these forums asking about issues caused by the incorrect use of the physics system, often citing Heartbeast's tutorial.

    Should it be removed? I think so. Perhaps replace it with another of Heartbeast's tutorials! He has plenty of excellent material to choose from.
    In the end it's up to YYG to decide what they want from their learn page though.
     

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