Existential Nihilism and it's effect on gaming. Single most important post you'll ever read

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MikeDark_x

Guest
So you are vegetarian then?
No, I don't believe they deserve to die, all I believe is, if it's to eat them and we raise them to do that, it's ok, we should just try to give them a fast painless death

You know, your idea of nobody eating meat would cause a lot of unemployement... like all the people that work in stuff related to meat would end unemployed, imagine that most of them work to support their family, how many persons would end up incapable of bringing food to their mouth because of the foolish ideas of a youngster?

Of course, a person who lacks empathy would not think of this, even less if said person feels like some sort of deity above humanity
 

Nocturne

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My VERY BROAD feelings on this matter are as follows:

Homo Sapiens as a species has been around for a very short time compared to other species on this planet, and as such can be considered an "infant" species. Now what do all infants do in their ignorance of the world around them? Destroy stuff. Sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose, but kids are pretty destructive critters. Why? Because they want to learn how it all works... Now apply that to humanity and you can see where I'm going... the Earth is like our playpen and our current level of social consciousness is that of a baby exploring their playpen, picking things up, smashing things together and generally causing havoc. BUT babies grow and learn, and I have hopes that humanity will do the same. I suspect that we will destroy this world we live on and will learn some very hard lessons from it, but our species will grow and mature and the NEXT planet we live on will be treated better.

On a NARROWER point of view:

Eating animals is wrong. Yes, I am a hypocrite as I eat animals (YUM!) but my social upbringing led me here and although I now eat a hell of a lot less meat than I used to, I still eat it and can't imagine ever giving it up (although i eat practically no beef, for the reasons outlined in the links shared below). Why is eating meat wrong? Personally, I don't think it is wrong for "humane" reasons, and I have no problems with raising animals for food (we are a predatory species after all). It is wrong because it requires far more money and energy to raise a cow than it does to raise the equivalent in protein from lentils (for example). It's not efficient and it's not healthy for the planet nor the species. I do however think that we will NOT ever give up eating meat, but instead we will start to GROW our own meat in vats, much like we did for this experimental burger. In which case I will have no problems with eating it...

:)
 

Fern

Member
I see death as an easy out and living as the hard road. Life is an up hill fight and you're going to lose. But like all stories, it will have its up and downs. It's during the ups that you have to remind yourself that you could've been another dead cell in an acidic pocket of flesh. Life is pointless. Making games is pointless. I've come to terms with just how futile life is. And you know what? I don't care. If I died right now, I'd still be sad that I couldn't help others chase their goals and reach their ups and downs. I don't care if it's pointless. I don't develop games to help give people an escape. I develop games to help others make their life's more exciting and less futile.

Want to talk about nihilism? Arguing that us eating other animals is right or wrong, that is pointless. I'd rather do jello bleach shots.
 

BitZero

Member
and here i thought the beast had finally went to sleep

The concept of "circle of life" doesn't evade me, but it seems to evade most humans. Humans contribute absolutely nothing to the health of the planet, cause thousands of species and habitats to go extinct each year, but have the audacity to think that hordes of animals owe them their lives, as playing their part as contribution to the "cycle of life" and "natural way of earth".
confirmation bias all up in this post. You're not the only person on this planet to work towards a more sustainable future™ (if you even are--and no, complaining about meat eaters on a forum does not count). Plenty of people contribute meaningful things to the planet, plenty of people don't. Some species go extinct, some are saved. You're just skewing and ignoring things to support this cynical narrative you've come up with to justify how superior you are to others, for whatever reason. alas, such is the life of the coveted superphilosopher

That is my point exactly. Humans have no morality.

They are an amoral, barbaric and savage species with no morality, that deceptively tries to push a social facade that says they aren't.
That doesn't make sense, considering humans are the only known species capable of proper morality... because we "invented" it. Sure, some people don't have the same morality as others, but that's fine. Besides, you're human and you're shooting normative judgements everywhere. So obviously your claim that humans have no morality is false, unless you want to declare yourself inhuman.

As for actually eating meat, yeah okay. you want to eat meat, that's fine. you don't want to eat meat, that's fine. I eat meat because I'm a self-centred, hedonist with no regard to the apparent intrinsic value of other lifeforms. Arguing about it is silly, since others have different moral standards and debating those is typically inefficient ... perhaps even pointless. I mean, for a topic about nihilism, there's certainly a lack of apathy here. :C unless if that's misty's master plan ...
 
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Galladhan

Guest
My opinion is that the state of video games is actually on it's perigee, in danger of becoming too close to the earth's gravity and crashing into the ocean.
I see it the same way. And frankly i start hoping it will happen soon.
I mean: videogame industry already collapsed in 1983. Everything looked perfect, until that point.
In the US there was Atari, a company whose motto was: "Work smart, not hard!". A company in which everybody could express their vision and their creativity without limits and obstacles of any kind. Nolan Bushnell made videogames popular all over the world with coin-ops and consoles, while Commodore did the same with home computers.
In the UK there was Clive Sinclair who did something similar for Europe.
And then there were talented minds like Jeff Minter, David Crane, Warren Robinett and Eugene Jarvis (just to cite the first 4 that come to my mind) who fuelled their machines with amazing games.
In Japan there was Namco, with Galaxian, Pac-Man, Pac-Land, Xevious, Pole Position...

At the end of 1982, a very good designer-programmer, the poor Howard Scott Warshaw, was asked to develop a videogame based on the E.T. movie... in less than 6 weeks! He incredibly managed to do it (in kinda a brilliant way, i would add), but everybody went like: "Boo! This game is horrible! 💩💩💩💩 you Atari!". And thousands of cartridges were buried in the desert...
Was E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial for Atari 2600 so horrible? I don't think so. The answer is: the market was so saturated of clones and uninspired games, in the previous months, that people just went sick and stopped buying them.
Follows the collapse.
What happens, then? It happens that a certain Shigeru Miyamoto, freshly employed in Nintendo, takes an uninspired coin-op (Radarscope), which isn't selling in the US, and transforms it into something completely different: Donkey Kong. And people go crazy for videogames again.

Well, i hope that the industry of videogames as it is intended today will crash (i'm not talking about Indie game creators, of course, but it's still a niche today) and a new Shigeru Miyamoto will rise, showing everybody that if you are really creative, people will play (and buy) your games.
Am i illuded? Maybe.

Just a curiosity, @Misty: you said "An example of this is Rare. They originally made games with quality aesthetics". When? :O
Tell me you're not talking about Donkey Kong Country's pre-rendered graphics, please!
(Ok, i stop critizing Rare :p)
 
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Misty

Guest
No, I don't believe they deserve to die, all I believe is, if it's to eat them and we raise them to do that, it's ok, we should just try to give them a fast painless death

You know, your idea of nobody eating meat would cause a lot of unemployement... like all the people that work in stuff related to meat would end unemployed, imagine that most of them work to support their family, how many persons would end up incapable of bringing food to their mouth because of the foolish ideas of a youngster?

Of course, a person who lacks empathy would not think of this, even less if said person feels like some sort of deity above humanity
Your acting like people can't get other jobs....

Hmm what is worse...locking someone in a cage their whole life, (a cow), or giving someone the pink slip...

Foolish ideas...keep telling yourself that. Justice is blind. You are species centric, it is YOU who elevates your species as a deity, demanding sacrifices to be made from all other species but your own.

Humans are an "infant" species.
Agreed.

Personally, I don't think it is wrong for "humane" reasons, and I have no problems with raising animals for food (we are a predatory species after all).
If you don't want your species to be treated as infants you need to stop acting as one. Always focusing on back to your own species....
The focus is on the cows feelings, not humans, so it doesn't matter what kind of species humans are, they could be an alien species for all I care, it's irrelevant, because the victims are the cows, and our concern is on the victims feelings.

Want to talk about nihilism? Arguing that us eating other animals is right or wrong, that is pointless. I'd rather do jello bleach shots.
I never said I was a nihilist, nor endorsed nihilism. i only wanted to talk about nihilism.

Plenty of people contribute meaningful things to the planet, plenty of people don't. Some species go extinct, some are saved. You're just skewing and ignoring things to support this cynical narrative
Im focusing on the facts, I'm not skewing anything, you are. You are trying to make humans look better than they really are. Sure a couple of hippies have some cheapo organization somewhere holding hands and praying for the coral reef, but the facts don't lie - the coral reef is disappearing, animals continue on their path to extinction, rainforests chopped down for flash farming - the amount of evil done by humans exceeds the paltry amount of good.

That doesn't make sense, considering humans are the only known species capable of proper morality... because we "invented" it. Sure, some people don't have the same morality as others, but that's fine.
Humans didn't invent morality, its an evolved component of nurturing. Many mammal species have it, they just don't define it with words.

As for actually eating meat, yeah okay. you want to eat meat, that's fine. you don't want to eat meat, that's fine. I eat meat because I'm a self-centred, hedonist with no regard to the apparent intrinsic value of other lifeforms.
I swear arguing about meat eating is like arguing with the demons of hell. Demon, you don't need to eat human flesh to survive, there's fake flesh over there! But I like the taste of it!!! And I enjoy their pain and suffering! And Satan pays me money to feed him! Oh demon is out of a job now? Poor demon.

Was E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial for Atari 2600 so horrible? I don't think so.
Let's be honest. It was horrible.

They originally made games with quality aesthetics
Star Fox, donkey kong 3d, banjo, perfect dark, etc.
 
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Galladhan

Guest
Star Fox, donkey kong 3d, banjo, perfect dark, etc.
The first Star Fox for SNES was from Nintendo EAD and Argonaut's "enfant prodige" Jez San.
Star Fox 64 (Lylat Wars) was again from EAD. Nothing to do with Rare.
So i guess you meant Star Fox Adventures, which looked pretty nice when it came out on GameCube. But looking at it today, i have the feeling it didn't get old very gracefully...

Donkey Kong 3D? You mean Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D? That's from Monster Games. :p

Perfect Dark looked shiny, i agree. And Viva Pinata was very colorful.

Anyway, i don't go crazy for Rare, but i still respect what they've done. Was just curious if maybe i was forgetting something about Rare (i'm always ready to change my mind eheh).
 
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Misty

Guest
The first Star Fox for SNES was from Nintendo EAD and Argonaut's "enfant prodige" Jez San.
Star Fox 64 (Lylat Wars) was again from EAD. Nothing to do with Rare.
So i guess you meant Star Fox Adventures, which looked pretty nice when it came out on GameCube. But looking at it today, i have the feeling it didn't get old very gracefully...

Donkey Kong 3D? You mean Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D? That's from Monster Games. :p

Perfect Dark looked shiny, i agree. And Viva Pinata was very colorful.

Anyway, i don't go crazy for Rare, but i still respect what they've done. Was just curious if maybe i was forgetting something about Rare (i'm always ready to change my mind eheh).
Rare made Donkey Kong 64 didn't they?

lol, its really funny you say that, cause I was actually looking at remaking it because it didn't seem nearly as bad as people made it.
Probably when you think of the game, you are thinking about how cool and great your remake will be, not the actual original game.
 
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Galladhan

Guest
Rare made Donkey Kong 64 didn't they?
Oh you meant Donkey Kong 64, pardon: i completely forgot about that game. Never played it, actually. (EDIT: And yep, it was from Rare).

About E.T.: surely it's not a good game, but at least it has some ideas in it. I don't think it's the "worst game in history" how they depicted it, anyway. But... points of view :)
 
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Misty

Guest
Oh you meant Donkey Kong 64, pardon: i completely forgot about that game. Never played it, actually. (EDIT: And yep, it was from Rare).

About E.T.: surely it's not a good game, but at least it has some ideas in it. I don't think it's the "worst game in history" how they depicted it, anyway. But... points of view :)
What is the worst game in history?
 
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Galladhan

Guest
What is the worst game in history?
For me? It's a very difficult question, there are so many horrible games to choose from... The first one that comes to my mind, which i think is worse than E.T. is Sonic The Hedgehog (2006).
 
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Misty

Guest
For me? It's a very difficult question, there are so many horrible games to choose from... The first one that comes to my mind, which i think is worse than E.T. is Sonic The Hedgehog (2006).
In what ways is it worse for you?
 
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Galladhan

Guest
In what ways is it worse for you?
I tried it (cause i had to) when it came out, so i can't recall the details (i removed them from my memory), but i remember it was all broken (the camera was completely drunk and the controls weren't responding correctly).
Most of all, there wasn't a single idea inside it. Copy and paste (in a terrible way).
 

Nocturne

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I like how you only choose to reply to very very specific parts of my previous post... ;)

The focus is on the cows feelings, not humans, so it doesn't matter what kind of species humans are, they could be an alien species for all I care, it's irrelevant, because the victims are the cows, and our concern is on the victims feelings.
Sorry, but I don't have much concern for the "victims" feelings because they have none (and calling them victims is rather disingenuous). If the cow/chicken/duck was sentient and aware of the fact that it was being fattened to be killed and feed others, then it would have some feelings on the matter I'm sure. But there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that these creatures are sufficiently self aware to have feelings on the matter. That doesn't mean that I want animals to suffer, as, although they may not know they are going to be killed, they do feel pain and suffer greatly from things like battery farming, something which I would greatly like to see abolished. So, animal suffering should be eliminated, but citing the animal's feelings as a reason for not eating them is naive at best...
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
I don't agree that there is any intrinsic meaning to things. Life, games, and everything only have meaning if you give them meaning. Make the games you want, play the games you want, or don't. Do things that make you happy (and which don't harm others).

This doesn't stop people from caring about things, or from giving things meaning. It's just that it's up to you to give your life purpose.
 
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Misty

Guest
No scientific evidence cows are sentient.
There is no scientific evidence humans are sentient, either. You can't prove other people have sentience, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Also pigs passed the mirror test, so theyr probably sentient, but there's no such thing as "scientific evidence" for sentience, other than verifying your own sentience.
 

Roa

Member
There is no scientific evidence humans are sentient, either. You can't prove other people have sentience, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Also pigs passed the mirror test, so theyr probably sentient, but there's no such thing as "scientific evidence" for sentience, other than verifying your own sentience.
  1. Ability for instrumentality.
  2. Ability of reason.(some of us)
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
There is no scientific evidence humans are sentient, either. You can't prove other people have sentience, so your argument is completely ridiculous.

Also pigs passed the mirror test, so theyr probably sentient, but there's no such thing as "scientific evidence" for sentience, other than verifying your own sentience.
There is no point in arguing this if you're just going to take it back to "you can't know if you're the only sentient being or not". If we can't agree that all humans are sentient beings, then there's nothing to even discuss here, because you can't prove anything if you're going to resort to that.
 
R

roytheshort

Guest
Well, somehow you keep finding the point in posting in this goddamned topic. If you can find a point in this mess it's pretty easy to find a point to life.
 
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Misty

Guest
  1. Ability for instrumentality.
  2. Ability of reason.(some of us)
Tool building and reason is not needed for consciousness or feeling, seperate functions of the brain dude.

If we can't agree that all humans are sentient beings, then there's nothing to even discuss here, because you can't prove anything if you're going to resort to that.
Your logic is incomplete.
Humans may be sentient beings, cows may be sentient beings. But you can no more prove a cow is sentient than a human, anything else is dogma, a product of dasein, and unscientific.
 

Nocturne

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Okay sentience was maybe the wrong word here... all I'm trying to say is that most livestock animals have not shown that they are sufficiently aware of their surroundings to know that they are going to be killed, and as such the argument that they have "feelings" on the matter is silly. If they knew they were going to be killed they'd pass their lives in a state of panic or try to escape, or attack the farm hands etc... this is anthropomorphism, and not a very valid nor scientific way to decide things.
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
Your logic is incomplete.
Humans may be sentient beings, cows may be sentient beings. But you can no more prove a cow is sentient than a human, anything else is dogma, a product of dasein, and unscientific.
Why would one need to prove that a cow is sentient (or self-aware) at all, though?

We could all be brains in a vat, participating in a real-life version of The Matrix. We could all be figments of your imagination.

You can't prove these things either way, so if you are willing to take the argument back that far, it becomes pointless to argue about.
 
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Misty

Guest
Why would one need to prove that a cow is sentient (or self-aware) at all, though?

We could all be brains in a vat, participating in a real-life version of The Matrix. We could all be figments of your imagination.

You can't prove these things either way, so if you are willing to take the argument back that far, it becomes pointless to argue about.
Exactly, it can't be proven, therefore it is not logical to say cows don't have sentience.

Okay sentience was maybe the wrong word here... all I'm trying to say is that most livestock animals have not shown that they are sufficiently aware of their surroundings to know that they are going to be killed, and as such the argument that they have "feelings" on the matter is silly. If they knew they were going to be killed they'd pass their lives in a state of panic or try to escape, or attack the farm hands etc... this is anthropomorphism, and not a very valid nor scientific way to decide things.
So a pig squealing in pain and resisting being corralled into death is not aware of being killed....right...

Your facts are completely fictitious, made up by the meat industry to maximize profits.

Evolutionarily, we can extrapolate that pigs did not evolve to calmly sit by while their mates where killed off by predators and wolves, they'd be extinct by now if that was the case. What you propose is utterly ridiculous hogwash, attempting to rewrite the basic facts of nature.

So if you have two pigs in your backyard, and you walk up to one of the pigs with a knife and kill it, you're telling me the other pig will just sit there, staring at you, and not run away from you in fear?
What ridiculous nonsense.
 
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Misty

Guest
Self awareness and reaction to pain have literally nothing to do with each other.
Pigs passed the mirror test, so according to science they have self-awareness.

Furthermore, Nocturne's facts are completely fictiticous, because according to him, you can walk up to a herd of pigs and start murdering them, and apparently all of them are so unconscious, none of them will run away fear. Of course, on a fictional planet with fake physics, fake evolution, and fake facts, this might happen, but not on planet Earth.

In reality, though, and real life, where the sky is blue and 2+2=4, the pigs would of course, run away in fear.
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
Pigs passed the mirror test, so according to science they have self-awareness.
That doesn't mean they have the faculties to understand what a slaughterhouse is, and be scared by it. Which, I believe, is what Nocturne was trying to say.

What is the point of this, anyway? Why does it matter if pigs have self-awareness or not?
 
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Misty

Guest
That doesn't mean they have the faculties to understand what a slaughterhouse is, and be scared by it. Which, I believe, is what Nocturne was trying to say.

What is the point of this, anyway? Why does it matter if pigs have self-awareness or not?
They might not know what a slaughterhouse is, by virtue of the fact that it is enclosed by walls, and you know, they don't speak english or have access to a dictionary to read what it says on the front door.

What does it matter?
According to humans it is immoral to hurt or kill something that has self-awareness.

But as we know, human morality is fictitious, they are nothing more than barbarians and savages, their morality equals simply whatever benefits them in the short term.
 
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Misty

Guest
This thread is stupid. I'm not convinced that you're actually trying to have a serious discussion.
What is stupid about it?

And what would you like to have more serious about it?

I would say that Nocturne's comments are not very serious, I mean pigs have the same brain capacity and size of dog's and cat's...and he's acting like they are completely mindless entities...I mean come on get real.
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
It's stupid because you're not having an honest discussion here. You're just being deliberately argumentative/obtuse.

You think pigs have the same level of sentience as people? Come on man. That's bullsh*t and you know it.
 

Nocturne

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I would say that Nocturne's comments are not very serious, I mean pigs have the same brain capacity and size of dog's and cat's...and he's acting like they are completely mindless entities...I mean come on get real.
LOL! I never said that. You just love putting words in people's mouths... Oh well...
 
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Misty

Guest
It's stupid because you're not having an honest discussion here. You're just being deliberately argumentative/obtuse.

You think pigs have the same level of sentience as people? Come on man. That's bullsh*t and you know it.
I never said they did. I did say that they have some sentience, which they probably do.

Come on man, Nocturne flat out said livestock animals have no feelings, get out of here with that.
 

Nocturne

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Come on man, Nocturne flat out said livestock animals have no feelings, get out of here with that.
all I'm trying to say is that most livestock animals have not shown that they are sufficiently aware of their surroundings to know that they are going to be killed, and as such the argument that they have "feelings" on the matter is silly.
Note that I never said they didn't have feelings, but rather that they don't have feelings related to that one specific instance that we were talking about...

LOL! I never said that. You just love putting words in people's mouths... Oh well...
Learn to read, and learn to argue coherently. ;)
 
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Misty

Guest
Argue coherently? You're one to talk.

You're the one living on planet x, in fantasy land where pigs apparently have no basic survival instincts and no perception of death, pain or harms way. Then you post fictitious facts where 2+2=5 backed by biased industry that has motives to distort the facts.
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
Argue coherently? You're one to talk.

You're the one living on planet x, in fantasy land where pigs apparently have no basic survival instincts and no perception of death, pain or harms way. Then you post fictitious facts where 2+2=5 backed by biased industry that has motives to distort the facts.
This is why I think this thread is stupid. You argue that you're the one who is actually being coherent, then you go on to support your claim with an incoherent argument that almost seems purposefully so.
 

BitZero

Member
This is why I think this thread is stupid. You argue that you're the one who is actually being coherent, then you go on to support your claim with an incoherent argument that almost seems purposefully so.
thus is the meta of this thread. the futility of arguing with Misty, the pointlessness of debating the evils of meat eating against an opponent who cannot see their own flaws. truly, nihilism at its worst

Im focusing on the facts, I'm not skewing anything, you are. You are trying to make humans look better than they really are. Sure a couple of hippies have some cheapo organization somewhere holding hands and praying for the coral reef, but the facts don't lie - the coral reef is disappearing, animals continue on their path to extinction, rainforests chopped down for flash farming - the amount of evil done by humans exceeds the paltry amount of good.
Nah, you're just skewing things. Besides, destroying the environment is a good thing, not a bad thing. Humans are doing a great amount of good in comparison to their bad. Don't you see? The eating of meat is good! It solidifies humanity's grip on this planet from those lower lifeforms.

Humans didn't invent morality, its an evolved component of nurturing. Many mammal species have it, they just don't define it with words.
obviously, thus "invent". Many mammal species may have a primitive morality that I would hardly classify as actual morals, but yes, I would love to hear what whales have to say about epistemological morality. Most animals lack the sapiency to make proper moral/ethical judgements beyond their basic evolutionary survival instincts. So while it could be argued that this is a system of morals, it hardly matters. The extensibility of their morality is much lower than that of a human's, whom can even justify their own destruction.

I swear arguing about meat eating is like arguing with the demons of hell. Demon, you don't need to eat human flesh to survive, there's fake flesh over there! But I like the taste of it!!! And I enjoy their pain and suffering! And Satan pays me money to feed him! Oh demon is out of a job now? Poor demon.
dude if i was a demon that'd be great. i could be a superphilsopher demon with demon powers and do demon stuff like apparently eat human flesh. have you met a demon, is that why you can make this comparison????

Then you post fictitious facts where 2+2=5 backed by biased industry that has motives to distort the facts.
curse the mathematics industry and their 2+2=5 propaganda. Kids these days just say the darnedest things
You're the one making fictitious claims by distorting and misunderstanding most of what Nocturne is saying whenever it doesn't match up with your personal views.

but hey, let's all take a breather and enjoy this picture of a dog
this is a do g right?

anyway, it's real nice that you don't like to eat meat. but does it really matter if other people eat meat? does any of it matter in the end? when the alien overlords invade, will this grand argument stop them???? maybe we'll never know
 
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Misty

Guest
Meat eating, and your attitude, is the prime excuse aliens will have for murdering you. If you cannot show pity on lower lifeforms, they consider humans lower lifeforms, and so why should they have pity on you?

My personal views are that animals have a sense of danger and pain, becaue 2+2=4 and the sky is blue, if animals had no sense of danger or pain they wouldn't have evolved to anything, just been eaten by wolves thousands of years ago.

So Nocturne is literally spreading fictitious facts, absurd claims that pig's heart rate does not increase when they see one of their comrades slaughtered.
What a load of malarkey, what kind of evolved mammalian organism has no fight or flight reflex and no reaction to one of their herd members being killed by a predator? Only on a planet of 2+2=5...even fish have that reflex, and he's telling me pigs don't? Only if you live in a bubble, and have never actually interacted with a pig in real life would you believe such nonsense. He expects us to believe his bogus facts and claims made by an biased corporation. In this day and age, the IPOD generation will believe anything, and number of totally bogus, ridiculous 2+2=5 type facts pushed by corporations is increasing.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
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So Nocturne is literally spreading fictitious facts, absurd claims that pig's heart rate does not increase when they see one of their comrades slaughtered.
Oh dear... yet again twisting things to fit your skewed world view. I never said anything of the sort and after I repeat myself for the third time I am OUT of this topic, and you can debate your ridiculous attention seeking ideals with yourself.

I stated quite clearly that DURING ITS LIFETIME a livestock animal is not aware that it is going to be killed. DURING IT'S LIFETIME (except in battery farms which I abhor and have already stated so) it is well fed and lives a happy PREDATOR FREE and RELAXED, WELL FED and HEALTHY life. DURING ITS LIFETIME and right up till the moment it is slaughtered the animal is BLISSFULLY UNAWARE OF ITS FUTURE and shows NO SYMPTOMS OF STRESS NOR ANXIETY.

As an extra note, and why the hell not, just to repeat myself, I support FREE RANGE farming and NOT FACTORY FARMING and source my meat accordingly. Factory farming does indeed cause unnecessary suffering to the animal, although I would still argue that it does not know it is going to be killed up until it is taken to the slaughterhouse, but the practices used in factory farming are generally cruel and unpleasant for the animal.

I've BOLDED the important bits so you don't miss them this time. ;)
 
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Galladhan

Guest
Only if you live in a bubble, and have never actually interacted with a pig in real life would you believe such nonsense.

If you have interacted with pigs in real life, Misty, you will surely know that they are uncontrollably attracted by the smell of blood. So, if someone kills a pig with a knife in front of some other pigs, as you said in your previous example, there are good possibilities that they won't run away, but instead they will charge the aggressors, throw them on the ground, and eat them to bits. :p

Before you misunderstand me, i'm not trying to say that pigs are evil beings and so they deserve to die. I even think they're kinda cute, in some way, but i guess it's Wind Waker's fault:

Link_and_Pigs.png


I'm just saying that maybe you have a distorted perception of what a pig feels?




Said this, i think that pigs, like any other creature in the world, have the right to live their lives in peace. But, as Nocturne pointed out, there are different ways to breed cattle.

I personally respect farmers who care for their animals, give them plenty of space to move, clean them, cure them and feed them properly.

I mean something like this:
(1:52:58). It's in italian, unfortunately, but i'm sure it's clear what i mean.


The problem is that they're fewer and fewer. Lot of farming, nowadays, is intensive, and that's a true cruelty. I have zero respect for people who treat animals like things to get richer and richer. And i wish them to be devoured by the animals they abuse.


Instead, i have deep respect for people like you, @Misty, cause you are very coherent with your point of view and you show a sensitivity which is not common.
I'm not vegetarian (even if i don't eat meat every day), but when i hear opinions like yours i ask myself if maybe you're right and i'm a hypocrite (since i think i love and respect animals).

But don't you think there's a difference between intensive farm and "domestic" farm?

Another question i want to ask you is: are you sure that if all the people in the world decided to go vegetarian-vegan, there would be the possibility to feed them all?
 
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Misty

Guest
Another question i want to ask you is: are you sure that if all the people in the world decided to go vegetarian-vegan, there would be the possibility to feed them all?
Yes, with tofu, beans rice and various other things.

But don't you think there's a difference between intensive farm and "domestic" farm?
Yes but the thing is most restaurants and stores don't get their meat from free range or local farms.


uncontrollably attracted by the smell of blood. there are good possibilities that they won't run away, but instead they will charge the aggressors, throw them on the ground, and eat them to bits. :p
Doubt it, because that doesn't evolutionarily add up. A herd of pigs wouldn't suddenly feel compelled to run to their dead comrades body as it is being eaten by wolves, simply because it smells good. Why because all genetic mutations who did this would be extinct.

A deer is a attracted to salt, but if a wolf puts salt all over their body it's not like the deer is gonna come running to them saying eat me. Common sense applies. Pigs that are attracted to blood, don't constantly injure themselves and mutilate their own bodies to get a sniff of their own blood.
One time I cut myself, pig was near by, pig could care less, petted the pig and he didn't seem to care about my blood, no a zombie apocalypse of bloodthirsty pigs did not ensue, and there were not hordes of pigs running for my blood.
 

FredFredrickson

Artist, designer, & developer
GMC Elder
Doubt it, because that doesn't evolutionarily add up. A herd of pigs wouldn't suddenly feel compelled to run to their dead comrades body as it is being eaten by wolves, simply because it smells good. Why because all genetic mutations who did this would be extinct.
Not true at all. There are plenty of animals who will try to protect their group/pack when threatened.

If pigs truly do have a fierce reaction to the smell of blood, that wouldn't mean their[/] blood necessarily, and it wouldn't mean any of them had to die for them to react this way, either.
 
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Misty

Guest
Not true at all. There are plenty of animals who will try to protect their group/pack when threatened.

If pigs truly do have a fierce reaction to the smell of blood, that wouldn't mean their[/] blood necessarily, and it wouldn't mean any of them had to die for them to react this way, either.
In which case, their heartrate would increase, so Nocturne's still wrong.
 
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gibberingmouther

Guest
Oh dear... yet again twisting things to fit your skewed world view. I never said anything of the sort and after I repeat myself for the third time I am OUT of this topic, and you can debate your ridiculous attention seeking ideals with yourself.

I stated quite clearly that DURING ITS LIFETIME a livestock animal is not aware that it is going to be killed. DURING IT'S LIFETIME (except in battery farms which I abhor and have already stated so) it is well fed and lives a happy PREDATOR FREE and RELAXED, WELL FED and HEALTHY life. DURING ITS LIFETIME and right up till the moment it is slaughtered the animal is BLISSFULLY UNAWARE OF ITS FUTURE and shows NO SYMPTOMS OF STRESS NOR ANXIETY.

As an extra note, and why the hell not, just to repeat myself, I support FREE RANGE farming and NOT FACTORY FARMING and source my meat accordingly. Factory farming does indeed cause unnecessary suffering to the animal, although I would still argue that it does not know it is going to be killed up until it is taken to the slaughterhouse, but the practices used in factory farming are generally cruel and unpleasant for the animal.

I've BOLDED the important bits so you don't miss them this time. ;)
i approve of your treatment of animals! i too avoid factory farming and source my animal protein accordingly. Temple Grandin did some work on making slaughterhouses more ethical, to specifically make it so they wouldn't be able to be aware of the bolting ahead of them.

being a vegan may be spiritually in a softer place but there are problems with that as well (how agricultural workers are treated, specifically) and i believe it's an inferior diet as far as energy from food is concerned, though that's just my opinion from experience of being a vegan.
 
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MikeDark_x

Guest
i have deep respect for people like you, @Misty, cause you are very coherent with your point of view and you show a sensitivity which is not common.
Coherent and Misty on the same sentence...
Before you misunderstand me, i'm not trying to say that pigs are evil beings and so they deserve to die. I even think they're kinda cute, in some way, but i guess it's Wind Waker's fault:
I also believe pigs are cute... full of nutrients but cute...
In which case, their heartrate would increase, so Nocturne's still wrong.
I believe you should provide evidence for this claim

On a side note, plants when cut generally activate different kinds of self preservation methods (like releasing a smell that could attract the attacker's predator), or have them preset before that (the best example of this is the thorns that many plants have to avoid being eaten), and there is even a possibility that plants feel when other plants are being hurt, so in this case, wouldn't it be the same as eating meat?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that farm animals should be given a good treatment during their lifetime, and that factory farming is not a good approach to raising them, but if we are to say that the lives of animals matter, why shouldn't we also say that the lives of plants matter as well? I mean if it wasn't for the plants in this world we would not exist, they provide us with oxigen, but there we are, cutting thousands of trees, I mean, discussing about eating animaks or not is ok, but by doing tgat aren't we just ignoring more important matters that not only have to do with morality, but also things from which our life, and the life of those that will follow us, is hanging on.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
In which case, their heartrate would increase, so Nocturne's still wrong.
Okay, so, how many wild animals die of old age? And how much stress and suffering would that wild animal have during it's lifetime? Consider a wild pig... Since it is born it will have to:

A) Forage for it's own food, meaning that it will go hungry/thirsty in times of drought or hardship - STRESS
B) It will have to deal with being hurt or injured, getting infections and generally not being taken care of in any way - STRESS
C) Watch out for any predators and live its life watching its surroundings permanently to make sure it doesn't get eaten by a nearby lion or whatever - STRESS
D) Have piglets with no veterinary attention and all the above mentioned problems related to looking after THEM and not just itself. - STRESS

Doubt this? Have a look here for ALL the reasons that animals get stressed: http://www.livescience.com/2967-animals-stressed.html

Now look at an organically and eco-friendly farmed pig (and before you miss-quote me or whatever - although you'll probably just ignore this post again like you seem to do anytime there is nothing that you can take out of context and twist to try and make it fit your own agenda - THIS is the kind of farming I'm talking about: http://sladefarmorganics.com/organic-pigs-life/)...

A) It get's fed and watered by the farmer and doesn't have to worry ever about these things - NO STRESS
B) If it is hurt the farmer sends a Vet to sort it out and heal it, using antibiotics or whatever is necessary - NO STRESS
C) It can live happily without having to worry ever again about predators - NO STRESS
D) It can rear its young in complete safety and will get medical attention for them and won't have to watch half of them die from predation. - NO STRESS

But of course, the hour or so of stress that it may suffer as it gets taken to the slaughterhouse completely outweighs the fact that it has had a blissful life up till that point with no problems or stress...?

;)

PS: http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-...may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants
 
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ConsolCWBY

Guest
I view nihilism as an illusion, a mirage, it is not the real deal.
]
In my younger days I was into punk and dada. It certainly is Nihilistic and can be seen as an irrational deconstruction of norms and mores. Furthermore, I would argue that nihilism in the USA more than contributed to the effects of the economic recession and hedonism of the 1970s. I heard that in England it was actually much worse.

But I guess this thread is no longer about existential nihilism. lol. Sorry to interrupt the farming stuff. ;)
 
F

frog

Guest
Well, I can tell you how I deal with clinical depression and a myriad of untreated mental issues and manage to be a productive member of society and, for the most part, a human being. This might sound silly, but I think about how bad it can possibly be. Because when you take the time to appreciate life, you realize it can always be much, much worse. Often times, we keep score based on how good we would like our lives to be... how much money we would like to see in our bank account, or what have you, and feel bad because of that difference. But equally as rational, is to keep score based on how bad our lives could be but are not. For example, terminal illnesses, a lifetime of dealing with the consequences of a terrible mistake, a horrific event that happens to you, etc. I find that I can always be jealous of people who have it better than me, and that this is quite easy to do. But rarely do people seem to look downward, at the immense abyss below our feet, of all the unspeakable things that might await our every step, yet we are fortunate to avoid. Not everyone does avoid these things. We walk above a bottomless pit of misery and despair upon a thin layer of ice and spend all of our time looking upward at the glory of things that seem to be out of our reach. Every once in a while, someone plunges through the ice. Sometimes right in front of us. And yet we avoid the hole and keep on walking, and rationalize why they fell through and not us.

There almost comes a point at which you have to wonder if all this "everything sucks" business is really just a form of the human brain protecting itself, convincing itself that things can't get any worse and shutting down. Perhaps the unknown is simply too much for some people to handle, with all of its twists and turns, ups and downs and so people prefer to find a tiny little dark cave where they expect everything to be horrible all the time and when it's not, they try to make it horrible, just so they have the illusion of control and don't have to deal with the disappointment that comes from losing hope, since they never have hope in the first place.

I don't know that people who view the world this way play video games. Clinical depression is basically a constant state of near suicide. A person is 'shutting down' at this point, perhaps voluntarily on some level, but they are fading away. They probably on some level wish that they could simply cease existence without having to do anything more. They stop exercising, their heart rate and vitals become poor, appetite suffers, they begin to want to sleep all of the time. I doubt you will catch them wanting to see something bright and cheerful.

At my lowest, I recall really enjoying Rick n' Morty, Workaholics and The Eric Andre Show. The shows are very dark, very twisted. But they were the only things that really felt like they "got" me. When I pulled out of it, I remember watching those shows and thinking... my god, these people are weird. And now that I have gone back to a very high place, in terms of happiness, satisfaction, energy, etc (opposite of depression) I can tell you that those shows seem pathetic and stupid and I can't imagine watching any of them. How pointless they seem, now. So it's really like there are two fundamental wavelengths that a person can exist on, and you can't really understand one if you're operating on the other. They are too dissonant and it makes no sense.

But yeah, I have been down to the bottom and back quite a few times. After a while you just get used to the ride. One day, you think about your .357 magnum in your gun safe or look at a concrete pillar near the freeway when you're doing 85 mph and you just think to yourself... how easy it would be. Heck, so easy, some people do it on accident. Then other days, you chuckle at people's Facebook posts about "It's the dark places we have all been that give us strength"... and you have to wonder if these people have any clue what the hell they're talking about... lol. Probably talking about getting dumped by an ex when they were 14 and they didn't watch TV for a week. Haha. I have developed an entire system of ways to grab onto things and pull myself back up if I go too low. Reasons why I am here. I have a spiderweb of support systems, if one fails, I can rely on another. It could be why I always have my hands in everything, why I diversify my interests so.

Did not plan on writing this much, but I figured, given the apparent heaviness of the OP's thread... you might be interested in hearing what it's like. Hell, my own mother used to say to me, "Why do you always have your head down when you walk? You're just so full of heaviness. Maybe you need professional help. You bring me down." Haha. Thanks mom.

If you're like me and you're lucky enough to find an optimist who will spend time with you, you hold on really tight and don't let go, but on a deep level really never fully understand how they can be the way that they are.
 
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