Discussion Do you think the gaming community has become too toxic?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Sabrina Stoakes, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    Casual arcade games are looking better all the time. Bouncing balls and falling bricks don't have gender identities, political agendas, or emotional issues.
     
  2. Niels

    Niels Member

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    In a perfect world we can have both dragons crown and dream daddy, and everyone picks up whatever game they want to play without getting triggered by the games they don't want to play...

    Still sucks that "the last night" is in trouble because the creator tweeted this in 2014: (for which he apologized)
    And because there are plenty of assholes in the internet that want to see this guy destroyed (including some game journalist), investors backed out and this game might never be finished...

    Game looks cool as hell
     
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  3. Roa

    Roa Member

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    Well, before that he was making a living talking about comics, and playing magic the gathering before the very harpies he complains about tried to ruin his career. He's not even been doing this stuff a year. His comment section isn't like that either. You would know both of those things if you watched him.

    It's kinda hard to be neutral when they come for you. And if being anti-that isn't neutral, I wouldn't want to be neutral. Going after your aggressor doesn't make you opposingly politically aligned. It just means your aggressively political opposition is awful and being dealt with.

    IE:?

    ….how can a site that doesn't allow politics to be interjected into things have a bias? Right wing or left wing doesn't matter. Unless you find the very idea that some people simply don't want to hear it when dealing with games is a bias. But that honestly just comes off as more of an entitlement to be heard.

    There are no gamer audience run websites with the transparency and honest outreach anymore, so how can they turn into alex jones type stuff?? Do people simply not deserve a space to ask for transparency and setup their own market? I mean, the massively overwhelming success of the Indiegogo kinda says it was something people were starving for. People are sick of the anti-gamer rhetoric for simply wanting to break away from ideology being forced on them. They just want to play their games....

    Transparency and credibility will decide who is and isn't worth reading. Not just because they write for the corpse of a once high-profile site and abuse it. It's amazing how meritocracy works.

    Also, if the far-left want people to stop using the NPC meme, they should start defending their positions from their own conclusions instead of just shaming people who don't accept them at face value. The NPC meme exist because of the people who spout verbatim arguments that have been debunked or at the least argued against before, and show no signs of changing or adapting their view(its not even their ideas), so you can't even have a real conversation with them. (if they arnt trying to deplatform you in the first place) So why bother to keep trying when you can just piss them off in a pretty accurate slimily? We know they are just going to get angry because everything they do is made from emotional appeal. What's irrational is trying to hold a conversation with people like that, who largely rather not have it in the first place and who's arguments are almost entirely pathos. Everything gets a little watered down when its said too much or gets too mainstream usage, but it's not really any less accurate.
     
  4. Roa

    Roa Member

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    Oh goodness! One of the tenants of feminisms is that women can make their own choices; except apparently when a women doesn't want to fall in line with it. Not supporting an ideology that claims to represent all women doesn't mean you are self loathing or tearing other women down. It simply means they have no invested interest in the political droning. And the fact that you would shame women with an "with us or against us" mentality for not partaking is a pretty big part of the problem. Implying all women would or should support it but simply don't for fear is just an insult to them. They don't support feminism because, they probably think its full of ****, are toxic in world view, and they don't like echo chamber indoctrination tactics. And even the ones that do have genuine egalitarian motive, would never call themselves feminist. Too many dirty things have been done in its name.

    Gamers don't complain about women being feminist. They complain about feminism being rammed down their throat at the cost of their medium and culture, and by women that are not there to be invested in the games, but clearly to insert there ideological dominance in a largely male space. Because if males are the majority in anything, its clearly because of sexism and not letting women in :rolleyes:

    Everywhere I go, to events and jams, and parties, chicks kick it with the dudes all day long, and its pretty cool. Most guys would like to have their GF be more interested in their hobby lol. Idk where you are getting this world view from unless your idea of a gamer is a 12yo who says he is going to **** your mom or something lol

    @JeffJ hit on this too it seems, so its not just me.

    A lot of them would say the shoe is on the other foot.
    I'm pretty sure its more to do with the fact that you are surrounded by people that have problem solving and logic thinking for a hobby more than moderation lol.



    pretty sure that was more because they were associating trump and republicans with Nazis in game with modern talking points, but eves... but it was also largely blown out of proportion and a false flag in most cases. I mean, if you want to go that route, game journalist literally marked points down for Far Cry 5 not making the obvious republicans evil and racist enough to show "the real world".



    Uhh, idk if you have been keeping very good tabs on radical progressivism lately, but groups like ANTIFA and BAMN are literal terrorist groups now. You have groups blocking schools, feminist going after everyone's job, and violence non-stop. It's gotten to the point where you can't call them a loud minority anymore. It's completely out of control, and THEY have the mainstream platform, because its trendy and new. THAT is propaganda, when dishonest media sources can defend their actions of actual criminal activity or file targeted DMC on content criticisms.

    A ton of really bad stuff has happened under feminism. And supposed "good feminist" never rat them out or disassociate. And because they preach from the same broken core values regardless, the same ideologs that bring about this entire unstable group of people in it supposedly are also shared by good feminist, so its safe to assume they are all in this together regardless of the extremity of a "few" cases, and so the entire group is by its very nature, toxic as ****.

    All people do is record their actions, and make it public, because public knowledge is the only way you will destroy this group who has a corporate and political stranglehold, who is truly using propaganda to destruction society to their liking. That's hardly isolated individuals. Its mob mentality. You can't have propaganda when you are the under dog, and by simply showing what comes of the group. Progressives do all this damage to their public image themselves, and they do it with pride too. Remember punching Nazis? (the word that use so liberally) They aren't really people that feel ashamed of their animalistic behavior. You don't have to manufacture or deceive anyone with their actions. They gave people ammo and plenty of reasons to hate them enough already, and lying/exaggerating the happenings would simply ruin the creditability, so there is not really a reason to do it, and every reason not to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 7:49 AM
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  5. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    Just wanted to say that I agree 100% with all three of these paragraphs. Pretty much exactly my own observations, thoughts and experiences as well. I'm very happy to see it's not just me.
     
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  6. MissingNo.

    MissingNo. Member

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    100 percent agree.

    Completely agree with this as well. It seems some developers feel pressured to include more female protagonists or strong female characters when it was never
    part of the original design. I'm all for more strong female characters but when it's forced usually it's noticeable and cringe worthy.

    Now I will say that video games were historically marketed towards boys, not saying most men that play video games now are sexist but I think the numbers
    divide with woman and men who play video games is a result to how they were marketed years ago and even more of a result from the origins of the first
    computers. back in the 30's till the 50's when computers were becoming a thing woman were pressured to stay at the house. And those who did get jobs
    were commonly paid less than men. Back then even if a woman had the skill to have a high level programming job they would most likely be denied
    just because she was a woman. This history is why we have this divide now.

    In my opinion things are looking up. More and more people are allowed to have hobbies and jobs without being discriminated against or looked down upon.
    Obviously it's not perfect, but the passing of time has had an incredible effect. I just think we got some stigmas left from the old world.
     
  7. Roa

    Roa Member

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    That's pretty inaccurate actually. Women were actually highly dominant in large parts of programing/turring operations, because men were at war, and they probably made more money than most women.(You can just google Turing machines and see women everywhere) But aside from that, video games of the 70s and 80s that you are talking about are completely detached from that. And most of that stuff was targeted as family entertainment. That never took off well, but they noticed specifically that young boys were taking interest in programing and playing computer games, so they switched their demographic away from being family entertainment systems, and started a more focused market, and it clearly worked.

    and by todays standards, women still make up very little of the core gamer audience.(actually owns a console/pc and full released games. not that candy crush/farmville 50/50 number people pull out the ass.) Women make up very little of the developers too. It just comes down to people's interest. Women are more interested now than before largely due to the massive variety of things out there, its just something guys take to more often.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 3:13 PM
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  8. Sn3akyP1xel

    Sn3akyP1xel Member

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    Spot on, I'm seeing the same. I can't make the content i used to make now because of political correctness and online laws which have been discreatly passed since 2011. It became so tricky to make content to hold anyones attention that I just gave up, and now I see people asking where has all the good content gone.
    My media wasn't even personally offensive (or aimed), just highly entertaining slapstick/stupidity. "Yootoob" in perticular has turned into the same as tv almost, marketing, advertising and a means of controlling the direction of information.
    As misty said, 'politics has infected itself into art'. How dare people be happy! GTAs use of stereotypes is just downright hilarious, i can't imagine their game without it.
     
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  9. Sean Catherine

    Sean Catherine Member

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    I come from "the art world/ academia" and I can tell you that there has been a real chilling effect regarding notions of freedom of expression, etc... Most of my undergrads worried about the same things. I'm not going to advise that you produce whatever you want under the sun no matter who it offends, perhaps falling on your own sword as a result, but you only have one life. You have a chance to put something into the world.
     
  10. RichHopelessComposer

    RichHopelessComposer Member

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    I'm glad this forum is still mostly sane, at least. Half of these innocuous, friendly posts would get you publicly crucified on Twitter, Tumblr, and the like...

    Sabrina suggested that our community was good here because of mods, too, but I don't think so at all. I think our community is good because we're all programmers, artists, musicians, or game designers. On average, we're going to trend significantly smarter and more reasonable than the general population, hahah. The mods here are all cool, but being a mod on the GMC is like being a soldier stationed in Hawaii. :')
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019 at 7:27 PM
  11. Sabrina Stoakes

    Sabrina Stoakes Member

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    Okay there is a TON to reply to here so I'll just reply to some specific stuff haha
    This I will have to see, I have very little faith in any website that says it's, "anti-PC". One America News is supposedly anti-bias and it's essentially the right wing version of CNN haha. What a lot of people don't understand is that freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences. People will always be the decider in what is socially acceptable and what isn't socially acceptable regardless of what some media site says. So if these people taking, "Anti-PC" stances are being punished by the people for their actions then that's entirely on the people. The reason people tend to listen to news sites is simple, it's because that's human nature, people want to feel connected and fit in, and they will change their opinions and feelings about things to fit their surroundings. That's why gamers feel vastly different about things than some mainstream crowd like casual gamers. I'm not sure if you understand what I'm getting at here, but maybe a question would better sum it up, do you believe that you personally would be against PC culture if you were part of a more mainstream crowd? Btw I agree with a good bit of things you have said here, I just don't trust any news sites to do the right thing hahaha
    The thing about the NPC meme that I personally don't like about it is that everyone I've personally seen use it, do exactly what they complain about. It just feels very absent minded and my anti-mainstream-obscure mentality forces me to not like it. I just like for my debating to be more nuanced than that, and I don't like using buzzwords to make my points. I also don't like it because it's a passing fad and essentially a rehashed version of, "Normie." It could have been a clever thing to use had it not been overused, but maybe I'm just being nit-picky.
    The word I was referring to was, "pick-me," and to clarify: it doesn't apply to women simply disagreeing with other women. It's usually a term for women that attack, belittle, or get men to gang up on other women with the intention of making men like them more. Women consider this an issue because it isn't authentic at all. Like, if they legitimately believed the things they were saying then that would be fine and no one would care, but you can always tell if someone is doing something because they believe in it, or if they are just doing it because it's trendy by looking at how they are saying it. Generally if someone is repeating tons of buzzwords and sounds identical to literally everyone else in that social clique, they aren't being very honest with who they are and are just simply trying too hard to fit in (Which is something that has become may more of an issue recently.) I have a pretty significant background in Psychology and know factually that the human mind is capable of way more individuality than what I see on the daily basis. This doesn't mean I'm left or right wing though. According to my political compass results I have a right lean and am pretty low into the libertarian area, so if I come off as left-wing it's mostly because I just care a lot about making sure that everyone isn't blindly following trends that make them less of an individual. Honestly, that's a huge part of who I am, and I typically will question why someone believes something even if I agree with them, so I hope you don't take any of this as me vehemently disagreeing with you cause you make a lot of sense haha
    Definitely, but I would say it's on both feet. However, you generally see less willingness to talk about things from mainstream crowds, so I guess there is a degree of validity there. Gamers will absolutely terrorize you for disagreeing with them when they're mad, but I have still had good conversations with them sometimes. I think you make a decent point about them being more of the way they are simply because they're just tired of constantly having to disagree and debate with people, but I think there is still validity to people not liking a lot of the gaming community. Like, I know jokes are jokes, and jokes will always be subjective, but I have been in waaaaaay too many gaming groups on Facebook that post things that are just absolutely disgusting haha. I'm sure it's done simply to be edgy in some cases, but it doesn't help their image much, and I've seen way too many cases where people will harass like trans people and tell them they look like the opposite gender they identify as for literally no reason, like, those people can comment on a post about anything, agreeing with the post, saying nothing that could even remotely be considered offensive and that will happen to them. I just find stuff like that to be so ignorant and unnecessary, it's what has made people think that ALL gamers are like that, and they're the kinds of people that give the rest of us gamers bad names. Go check out any gaming hell group that isn't Kirby Hell (It's way too wholesome) and you'll see what I mean almost immediately. Of course, this doesn't apply to just gamers though, cause Facebook is an absolute cesspool of homophobia, transphobia, and racism. I've seen way too many comment sections where people just fly off the handles about a gay guy wearing makeup or something in a video that has absolutely nothing political in it. It's quite literally hating them because they exist. Which I think is also a trend, because it makes no logical sense to be angry at these people for existing. Maybe it's a loud minority, but what you said about feminism further down in your reply applies here too, and that's simply that I see virtually no one in the gaming community making any effort to not support the way these people treat others and when someone does come up and defend someone being treated poorly, they're mocked and vilified for it, which is a pretty strong indication of how the others feel. If the gaming community wants to distance themselves from being called the things they're called, then they need to focus on games more, and not doing things like I mentioned because it just fuels the fire haha
    Most of what I have seen from ANTIFA personally is that they like to get Black Metal shows canceled, but that's mostly because Black Metal has a lot of roots in Nazism (Not the liberal definition of it, I'm talking these people straight up keep the flag in their rooms and worship in LOL.) ANTIFA has been pretty quiet recently so I think they're just not as trendy anymore. They're authoritarian left wingers, more specifically, "Tankies" who believe that America can be changed with a violent revolution. One thing you should probably be aware of is that ANTIFA doesn't like liberals, in fact, Tankies make it an absolute point that they hate liberals and want them dead too. So yeah, they would be a terrorist group, but so are all the incidents we have seen recently of right wingers shooting up schools, gay-bars, and churches. People just need to C H I L L. I don't believe in authoritarianism at all, and I find it so strange that both the authoritarian left and right think they're on the side of revolution. These Tankies and Fascists have no idea what their ideologies have done to the world, the millions of innocent people that have died because of them, and the scary thing is that I see a lot of young people picking between the two as if that's the only two options. I blame the identity politics for this mostly because if you're right wing then you're not allowed to have left wing views, and if you're left wing then you're not allowed to have right wing views. If you do then you don't fit into either side and get shamed for it. Chris Wallace from Fox News is a pretty good example of this, he's right wing, he believes in a lot of right wing opinions, but he doesn't agree with everything right wingers say and gets attacked for it A LOT. I don't agree with him on most things, but I have huge respect for him for not giving into identity politics. Same goes for Shepherd Smith who is also from Fox News, he's a democrat, but he has some right wing opinions about things, and I respect him for it, the rest of Fox News hates him and probably wishes he was dead, but it's still nice to hear a voice of reason from a vehemently biased outlet. My Dad insists on watching Fox News constantly, and I don't watch the news, so I can't say the same for any of the other media outlets because I simply haven't seen them enough to know, but the probability of it tells me that it's probably the case for every other outlet.
    Can I be a feminist and find absolutely nothing wrong with Lollipop Chainsaw or is that against the law? ;Three Thinking Emojis;
    I honestly kind of miss the days of well written lead characters like Dante from DMC was, I would be definitely open to more female and LGBT characters if they didn't do it in a way that is offensive to women and the LGBT community, as a girl who loves other girls, games like Life Is Strange makes me feel uhhhhh not sure what the word for it is, but the representation is awful like I DO NOT ACT THAT WAY REEEE. I like to use Dante as an example of a well written character though because he's canonically bisexual (albeit he's entirely just talk aside from DmC Dante which we don't speak of.) Tons of people don't know that he's that way because it was never something that was throw directly at you in a way that felt out of place and weird, it makes me happy to see because he acts like a normal cocky son of a legendary demon, as all sons of legendary demons do.
     
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  12. Sabrina Stoakes

    Sabrina Stoakes Member

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    Yeah I think I said somewhere on here that programmers were sort of like artists and that artists and stuff usually are pretty open minded about stuff. I love you guys, this is one of the only communities that you can disagree with people in and not have a huge mess of a thread haha
     
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  13. MissingNo.

    MissingNo. Member

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    Okay I might have had some misinformation but at least some parts of the US what I said was true because my grandparents and great grandparents would frequently mention
    how women were denied programming jobs or anything that even remotely required high degrees of intelligence. My great grandfather worked with the government to help
    disassemble and reverse engineer enemy rockets. And when he was alive he would say about how women in his line of work were only welcome to do basic assistant type jobs.
    So seeing my grandparents speak about these things gave me the perception that it must have been common back then.

    I can't speak for the rest of the world but as someone in the US who has seen MANY 80's and 90's commercials, video games were clearly marketed towards boys.
    In the Atari and before era yes video games were marketed more to families but in the US that all changed once Nintendo came around.

    Here is the first US NES commercial:


    I once seen a documentary years ago about the NES and how Nintendo early decided on how to market the NES and they decided to target boys.
    I can't find this documentary but if I do I will share it with you.

    Also just so you know I'm not saying there is anything wrong with marketing towards a certain gender but unfortunately in this case it has lead to some of today's perceptions
    about who video gaming is for.

    Yeah I agree but its still more than it was before.

    I agree to an extent but I also think it's because of how marketing is different now and how old stigmas are starting to shed. Honestly I think if we give it 30 years
    we will see many more woman playing games that meet your criteria, I just think cultural pressures have to ease up more.

    And your probably are right I just don't think the divide in potential is as much as you think it is. I think given time we will see a lot more.

    Heck even nowadays I'm shocked just how much woman seem into gaming, in my circle of friends around my age almost all the girls I know play games like
    you specified, a lot of them like to play games like Mario Kart, Final Fantasy and Undertale to name a few and I know several who like to play God of War.
    Now for some of them gaming is not their main hobby but they still enjoy games so it still counts.
    and the one girl I know has a circle of friends that are mostly girls and they all play games as well. And no not candy crush and such.

    I have personally played with several girls in many games such as the Smash Bros series and Destroy all Humans 2 in local multiplayer.
    Had I been born earlier and tried to do this in the late 80's or 90's I doubt I would have had as much luck.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019 at 10:09 PM
  14. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    Just saw this. I feel like up until 2016 you were just lucky. I've bounced around chat rooms, forums, and communities since the early 00s and one thing I learnt was people have always been garbage. Usually the larger the community or forum, the more garbage there is. Even the smaller ones have one or two bad eggs, but the one or two here are pretry easy to ignore at least.
     
  15. Fanatrick

    Fanatrick Member

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    I'm of an unpopular opinion that nothing really changed in terms of people being toxic since the days of early instant-messaging, it's just people turning to snowflakes and getting offended by pretty much anything these days. It's always easier to play the victim than playing fair. Honestly if you take close to heart what a random person online that you never met before says to you, work on your confidence.
     
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  16. Adrien Dittrick

    Adrien Dittrick Member

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    I think it's not specific to gaming, it's a problem with every anonymized community.
     
  17. Sabrina Stoakes

    Sabrina Stoakes Member

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    tbh my confidence is virtually nonexistent :( So you may be on to something there haha
     
  18. Sabrina Stoakes

    Sabrina Stoakes Member

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    This is possible. I was just becoming an adult in 2016 so maybe I just didn't transition into adulthood well haha the world is a very dark place and I've spent pretty much the last few years coping with knowing there's nothing you can do about it.
     
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  19. Siolfor the Jackal

    Siolfor the Jackal Member

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    Don't worry, I've technically been an adult for much longer and I still haven't really properly transitioned into it.
    The world isn't a dark place, it's just full of idiots. Some are well meaning idiots at least, and most are harmless, but the bad ones are the loudest and that can make things seem worse than they actually are.
    I don't pretend to understand all these problems people are having today, part of me does sort of believe that sometimes people are just being a bit sensitive and are demanding respect instead of trying to earn it, making up all these new weird rules to follow and new things to be outraged by. But at the same time I personally know a lot of people going through various things and I know their back stories enough to understand why they are like this. Things were different for me, I had to just learn to deal with things myself and not let things get to me, change my attitude and outlook, frame things more positively. I've met more nice people that **** people on and offline, and if the **** people were really in the majority like people like to think, then things would be muuuuch much worse than they are(and things are mostly pretty sweet at the moment).
     
  20. Arconious

    Arconious Member

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    Hey Jeff, I saw this reply of yours and had a few questions/comments to help me understand better.

    So for posterity's sake, here is an image of the dialogue bit you are discussing:
    [​IMG]

    From what I could research and find, this is the exact dialogue that reveals she is transgender -- and in order to get to it, you had to progress through at least one (maybe two?) prior piece of dialogue that definitely didn't shout out she is transgender. Do you really find this that overt and heavy-handed?

    There were also transgender people coming out and supporting the choice to include the character and the way she was realized: Of course, transgender people aren't a monolith, and I recall reading different criticisms of the character -- but many targeted the fact that the character was a mere side character that could be skipped entirely, lamenting a missed opportunity for a fully realized and fleshed out transgender character.

    I'm kind of confused at this sentiment. Do you not include things in your game on a whim or a hunch ever? Do you never include easter eggs or references, perhaps ones completely esoteric? Do you not ever have elements that are there strictly to build the world? To fill it with life or visuals?

    Again, I'm really not sure why you find the dialogue so egregious. It's a completely innocuous couple of lines.

    Fun for fun's sake; art for art's sake; diversity for diversity's sake. What's the difference?

    You say that what matters most is an "enjoyable, honest piece of art with some level of integrity". What if having "diversity for diversity's sake" helped to make the product an "enjoyable, honest piece of art" for some?

    I can't say I agree with this idea, or at least I don't experience the same. Numerous works have been written by their authors with explicit purpose and ideas in mind that they intended to convey, sometimes overtly and other times more subtly. To recognize where the author's voice lies in the subject matter does not necessarily break the immersion, nor do I feel that the inclusion thereof is tantamount to 'huge disrespect' for the consumer.
     
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  21. JeffJ

    JeffJ Member

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    To me, it's not so much the dialogue in itself. It's the combination of all the things wrong with it. Beyond what I already mentioned in my original post, here's another fun little thing;
    You're left with nothing but "Thank you, that was so interesting" and "Bye". What if my character happens to be chaotic evil? Clearly an option for such an alignment in a context like this would never exist, because safespace is important, even in a completely fictional fantasy realm.

    What I read here is that, because it's just a side character, it does not matter how poorly it was handled or stuffed in for nothing more than to please the writer's personal socialpolitical viewpoints. That may work for other people, but to me, it messes with the consistency of the world, and it also breaks the immersion because it is handled so poorly that the writer's external views are so vividly clear that you see the writer rather than the character.

    Yes, of course. But again... It has to actually be consistent with the world. Are you familiar with Forgotten Realms? I mentioned in my previous post that the very existence of such a character doesn't even make any sense, since this is a world where you can do so many other things than what we see in our own current world. It does not fit with the setting, established lore or anything else, and that's a problem.

    If that's what it did for some, that's great. This was obviously not the case for the majority, however (myself included) as very evident by the hot mess that Overhaul Games landed in. Also, that writer was let go after that project. Anyone who felt that way seems to be very much in the minority, and I completely understand why the majority reacted like it did. I'm repeating myself now, but my overall point is, as I've already mentioned; when socialpolitical viewpoints are shoehorned into a universe where it has absolutely no context, relevance or place in general just to appease the writer, then yes, that does mess with the integrity and honesty of the art - very much so. And people reacted accordingly.

    There's a huge difference between writing your own stuff for personal amusement, and then being hired to work on a very old and very established setting. In this case, these were long time fans of a very established universe, some for more than 30 years, who found issue with the fact that a completely new writer came in with no experience or personal ties to the universe or the franchise, and who made a mess of things by shoehorning in her own views, which in this case were completely out of context. You can be a writer and inject your own views, but you need to keep in mind what it is you're writing for.
     
  22. Niels

    Niels Member

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    A bigger problem IMO is that old mediums like the news or papers seem to have political agenda too...
     
  23. MissingNo.

    MissingNo. Member

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    45
    All mediums can have a political agenda, it just depends on who is using it.
     

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