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Discussion Disappointing things about GMS 2.

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Grzegorz Dałek

Guest
I was super anxious to get my hands on GMS 2. I'm using GM:S 1 for a few years and I was always the first to tell everyone how awesome it is. Even tho at the studio I'm working at we're using UE4 and Unity for the projects and in people opinion GM:S is rather a toy for kids. I tried to change their minds and my ability to prototype ideas and mechanics in matter of minutes was always impressive to my coworkers.

Even tho I loved to work in GM:S I thought it was outdated and needed a lot of changes. What I missed the most were the tools modern even free engines on the market have. Such as GML code auto completion and live check, editors such as particle editor, visual shader editor, animation editor with animation events, better event system and better shader pipeline and documentation, proper audio engine with filters, mixer, effects and so on. Some GUI system would be nice since coding UI is always a total pain.Those things would bring it up to date with other engines.

Right now after test driving the Beta for one day all I can say is I'm very disappointed.

I like code auto completion, new room editor is cool, and that's about it. UI revamp is alright, but it's not spectacular. Entire thing works slowly and has horrendous system requirements for a tool I use to put together a quick prototype out of 10 sprites and few scripts.

I've been working on my current project in GM:S 1.4 for 6 months, and it's so big it takes few minutes to build to even test things out. It's hard to tell if I can bring it to 2.x since import is disabled in Beta, and bringing the bigger projects is not advised in the FAQ. Hard to tell if it compiles faster since you cannot compile anything too.

New image editor is alright, but I cannot tell how somebody came up with idea of spending time on it, while there is no particle editor at all. You can draw while animating but really, how many uses does it have? Aesprite is way better tool and it costs 10$ for the license.

Licensing options are poor as well. There is no Free version anymore, Trial restrictions will disable kids and people wanting to get into game dev from learning how to make games - the thing Game Maker was built for in the first place. How can you learn if you can't even build the executable of your game? Put it on itch.io or send to your friends or show your family?

On the other hand as an owner of Master Collection I can't justify paying over 500$ to get few features other free engines such as Godot or Defold has already on board.

I would really like to support GMS2 since I loved the old one, but the new things just don't justify the pricing. It just brings GM:S to where it should be few years ago with regular development and evolution.

Maybe I missed some features or had too big expectations of GMS2.
 
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RealityShifter

Guest
GMS 1.4 still works perfectly fine and newcomers can still use for free/ purchase it if they feel that free GMS2 is too restricting(it is). So if you want to build your game to send to a friend use GMS 1.4.

I think the price for existing GM license holders to upgrade is a little steep(I have the master collection and do not want to pay $500 all over again).
But for newcomers it's perfectly fine given the new features. It's way way cheaper than Unity over all.

Importing large projects is always a pain, but I think it will still be possible. However if your game is that far along, I'd stick with 1.4 and finish it there. Use GMS2 for the next project.

Overall, think of GMS2 as the ultra premium version, GMS1.4 is still perfectly viable solution for a project.
 
The image editor is THE most used feature in GameMaker - I kid you not.

Theres no particle editor - yet.
That says more about GM's average user (hobbyist programmer, non-artist) than it does about GM's image editor, though.

You guys have a really weird job, trying to make money while keeping hobbyists happy. I don't envy you. ):

I feel the same way as OP. The new IDE looks nice, and the new room editor looks great, but I was expecting more than what I've seen, after two or three years of my suggestions getting form "not until 2.0" responses. It looks like you guys have done good work on GM, but I was expecting you guys to flip the table with this and do something crazy. I'm looking forward to GM's future, though. =)
 
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Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
No, loads of coders use it to move things a little... adjust an image... mock up stuff etc. Its massively used by loads of folk, from beginners to pros.
 
No, loads of coders use it to move things a little... adjust an image... mock up stuff etc. Its massively used by loads of folk, from beginners to pros.
I use it, too. For deleting solid colors in my images...and that's it, usually. I'm not saying it should be taken out or that it isn't convenient, just that I don't think that GM as a professional tool needed the image editor to grow any stronger.

If you guys added a simple sound editor to GM, I'm sure I and others would use that for small jobs as well, since it'd be right there. That doesn't mean GM needs it before other features, though!
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
The image editor is THE most used feature in GameMaker - I kid you not.

Theres no particle editor - yet.
I actually sometimes fire up GM just to use the image editor, whenever i have minor modifs to make.
Not because i think its better than my other software, but because i use it so much im super comfortable with it.

When working with GM, all my sprites are either made in the GM editor or rendered in blender. simply because its soo convinient not having to bothe rthinking about paths all the time.

The new editor is a very welcome feature :) (Sure, other tools may be better, nothing stops you from using them).

@Grzegorz Dałek Actually, there are many cool new exciting features: Room editor, layers, TILES!!! MORE TILES AND ACTUAL TILES!, macros, and did i mention tiles got ovehauled?
I understand many people want GML to change. but now that i have worked with games in GM, java, c# and c, im glad GML works the way it does. (Though, yes, it could be made better).

Now yes, GMS2 doenst bring too much change to the way it works. But thats because its still a GameMaker product.... Look at the change between unity 3 and 4. Its still relies on many of the same underlying principles.
 

Mr. RPG

Member
Never used the image editor before. I might have to try it some day.
I never use the image editor either and I honestly wish they would remove it. They could spend that time improving other areas of GameMaker instead. There are bug reports from over a year ago that still haven't been looked at.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not important to others. I'm a big fan of it - the new one more so. And for animations I love the new one. We're not just writing for you - obviously, we have a large diverse user base that uses lots of different features in the program.

And as I said, this is actually THE most used part of the product - even more so than "run", so from a dev point of view - this is an important thing to work on.
 

rIKmAN

Member
Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not important to others. I'm a big fan of it - the new one more so. And for animations I love the new one. We're not just writing for you - obviously, we have a large diverse user base that uses lots of different features in the program.

And as I said, this is actually THE most used part of the product - even more so than "run", so from a dev point of view - this is an important thing to work on.
I agree you have to strike a balance, and it's impossible to please everyone.
However if @Mr. RPG is correct, it doesn't make sense that there would be 1yr old bug reports that have not been looked at for such a used and important part of GM.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not important to others. I'm a big fan of it - the new one more so. And for animations I love the new one. We're not just writing for you - obviously, we have a large diverse user base that uses lots of different features in the program.

And as I said, this is actually THE most used part of the product - even more so than "run", so from a dev point of view - this is an important thing to work on.
0.o just how much data have you been collecting from us poor developers...

Sorry to derail, but a built-in particle editor would be SWEET
yes, it would be great!
but given the great community made editors and plugin support for GMS2, this may well be comming.

The nice thing with plugins is that we get more choices as to how we choose to develop games and organize the IDE.
It also measn YYG get lots of extra content for their IDE for free :) Getting a better product at our expense! (its cool YYG)
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
It depends how important we think it is, GameMake Studio 2 has had most of the focus internally or a while, so staff for fixing things has been reduced. This means things get prioritised. You may not agree with the priority, but that doesn't mean we haven't looked at the bugs.

0.o just how much data have you been collecting from us poor developers...
Simple IDE analytics to see what we should focus effort on - like most apps will do.
 

spacerobot

Member
I love the new image editor. If I can do some basic edits inside game maker and save some time of going to aseprite or photoshop, exporting, importing back into GMS then that is awesome. I am a hobbyist and suck at art BTW.
 

makas

Member
I also use a lot the image editor, specially for fast fixes, but I really like the new editor, the only downside so far is that there are several functions that were in the GMS 1 editor and I couldnt find in the new editor... like rotate the sprite any angle, not just fixed 90°... also there seems to be more of this functions missing... a free rotation option on selection would be magnificent but I dont find it anywhere, is there a way to do this?
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
Simple IDE analytics to see what we should focus effort on - like most apps will do.
Haha, dont worry, Im totally on board with companies gathering anonymous data from their software. Im ok with YYG, doing it. im even ok with MS doing it! It does mean for better software, so im totally onboard.
(also this way, if i ever end up doing it, i wont sound like a hypocrit :3 )
 
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Grzegorz Dałek

Guest
My point wasn't that image editor is not being used - just it's not top priority in my opinion. I use the image editor in GM:S 1.4 from time to time if I need to make something super simple to prototype. But for actual art I go to Aesprite. If I would do higher res I would go to Photoshop or Krita. The same goes for UI - old one was outdated and clunky (like sometimes it didn't update right) but it's not the top priority. The argument that a lot of people use it so it should be the most robust tool isn't very strong. Why not make a Photoshop out of it then? In my opinion it should have enough tools to do a bit of everything. This includes particle and shader editor.

New thing I don't like is the DnD conversion to GML. It's completly unreadible. The guy who made Nuclear Throne multiplayer mod did a web-based tool which makes conversion and it works in a better way.

Speaking of upgrading TILES - yes there are animated tiles and autotiling, but seriously ... which year is it? For GM:S 1.x there was plugin by Mark Alexander for few bucks with auto-tiling on the marketplace. I remember while making levels for JackJazz Rabbit 2 they already had animated tiles in the engine and it was like 1998 or so.

I know this update is a big step forward for GameMaker Studio, but comparing it to other tools on the market it's not even coming to the same level. If this was an update like 100$ I would be glad to pay it. But 500+ in "time limited discount" for Master Collection is way too much.
 

Samuel Venable

Time Killer
I am disappointed by disappointment in itself. They didn't make it a subscription, and a lot less stuff was deprecated than I thought there was gonna be. Sure it'll take a little time to get stable. I'm just anxious to buy the Desktop edition and get my extensions working.
 
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Grzegorz Dałek

Guest
I don't know how "they didn't make it a subscription" relates to anything I wrote about. "It could have been worse" doesn't make any stuff I wrote about irrelevant.
 
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Grzegorz Dałek

Guest
GMS 1.4 still works perfectly fine and newcomers can still use for free/ purchase it if they feel that free GMS2 is too restricting(it is). So if you want to build your game to send to a friend use GMS 1.4.

Overall, think of GMS2 as the ultra premium version, GMS1.4 is still perfectly viable solution for a project.
It's a solution for now. I doubt they will sell GM:S 1.4 when 2.0 will be released. Especially considering they are ditching the support for 1.4 already as it says in the FAQ.
 

Hyomoto

Member
Hmm, I use the image editor but definitely not more than 'run'. Either some people are amazing coders who hammer out an entire project before they test it, or that means a lot of people put together projects they never get around to ... running? Weird statistic. I wonder what my GM:S usage statistics look like.
 
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Grzegorz Dałek

Guest
I probably should've read first. I was so hastey to post that after reading the title. Sorry about that.
No problem. I didn't want to make a clickbait title as well. Just wanted to make sure YYC is aware of how people feel and create a space to discuss those things. I see storm of bad opinions on the update on my twitter feed. Mostly about the high pricing for small amount of new features in the package. I would gladly pay 100-200$ for my Master Collection upgrade. But limited time 500$+ upgrade is just way too much for a bit better editors which were to be honest very weak in old version.
 

Mike

nobody important
GMC Elder
My point wasn't that image editor is not being used - just it's not top priority in my opinion. I use the image editor in GM:S 1.4 from time to time if I need to make something super simple to prototype. But for actual art I go to Aesprite. If I would do higher res I would go to Photoshop or Krita. The same goes for UI - old one was outdated and clunky (like sometimes it didn't update right) but it's not the top priority. The argument that a lot of people use it so it should be the most robust tool isn't very strong. Why not make a Photoshop out of it then? In my opinion it should have enough tools to do a bit of everything. This includes particle and shader editor.

New thing I don't like is the DnD conversion to GML. It's completly unreadible. The guy who made Nuclear Throne multiplayer mod did a web-based tool which makes conversion and it works in a better way.

Speaking of upgrading TILES - yes there are animated tiles and autotiling, but seriously ... which year is it? For GM:S 1.x there was plugin by Mark Alexander for few bucks with auto-tiling on the marketplace. I remember while making levels for JackJazz Rabbit 2 they already had animated tiles in the engine and it was like 1998 or so.

I know this update is a big step forward for GameMaker Studio, but comparing it to other tools on the market it's not even coming to the same level. If this was an update like 100$ I would be glad to pay it. But 500+ in "time limited discount" for Master Collection is way too much.
Okay... so...here we go! :)

The DnD code being shown, is the code that is actually used/generated. The compiler will do more to it, but that's the actual code going to the compiler. You can look at the file on disk while its still in it's DnD form and see for yourself.

The tile system in 1.x was terrible, slow and a nightmare to animate - or do anything with in fact. This one allows for much more to be done, is monumentally faster, and allows for FREE tile animation. Every tile animates ALL the time. This means that even if a tile isn't doing anything, it's animating with itself. This takes the worry away that as you add animation detail, things will slow down - as they did in 1.x.
Auto tiling yes is available in other tools - does that mean we shouldn't be adding it? No of course not. We will be adding it at "some point" to the runtime, so that you can switch it on in GML, add tiles to the world at runtime and then have the map fix itself up. This will make procedural level generation much more interesting.
It will also allow us to do much better tools in the room editor, as everything is now very simple. You can will be able to do fills, lines , rects - everything you should be able to do.
And if you want to be pedantic, old NES/Master system consoles, along with the Commodore 64/Vic20 and so on, ALL had "tile" maps. They've been around for as long as I've been programming - which is why the 1.x ones annoyed me, they just weren't right. :)

So sure - if it's not for you, then stick to 1.x and good luck to you! 1.x is still incredibly powerful, and will still be a tool of choice for many.

It's important to realise that GameMaker Studio 2 is not just a redesign, it's a solid foundation for anything we want to do. We will no longer have to say "Can't be done in this version", everything IS possible. Not saying we'll do everything of course, but the code does allow for easily adding things now, which was one of the main goals!
 

makas

Member
Mike, now that you are talking about the new tile system, is there plans to add isometric tile support?
 

SnoutUp

Member
These are my thoughts exactly. I don't need Drag and Drop or tile editor, never used image editor and don't really use room editor either. Paying 500$ for IDE changes, which could've and should've been in 1.x already is way too much for me. I would be very happy to stay with 1.4, but messy 1.4.1760 release and plenty of issues with export modules combined with less and less resources thrown in to fixing them makes me nervous. I am way too lazy to learn another engine.

No problem. I didn't want to make a clickbait title as well. Just wanted to make sure YYC is aware of how people feel and create a space to discuss those things. I see storm of bad opinions on the update on my twitter feed. Mostly about the high pricing for small amount of new features in the package. I would gladly pay 100-200$ for my Master Collection upgrade. But limited time 500$+ upgrade is just way too much for a bit better editors which were to be honest very weak in old version.
 

rIKmAN

Member
I would be very happy to stay with 1.4, but messy 1.4.1760 release and plenty of issues with export modules combined with less and less resources thrown in to fixing them makes me nervous.
I have to agree with this, and although I understand resources and manpower have recently been put into getting the v2 beta ready and out the door, the support for v1.x over the last month has been poor.

Lots of Android/iOS export errors and problems, all the SDK documentation out of date and causing even more confusion as to what versions of x to use with what versions of y, HTML5 black screen bugs with anything Spine or Box2D related etc

At least the SDK Versions page has finally been updated, so hopefully that's a sign that they are going to show a bit of interest in getting the current problems that seemed to have been introduced by the 1760/1763 update fixed and which don't happen on 1757.

Fingers crossed!
 
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NobleValerian

Guest
Aesprite is way better tool and it costs 10$ for the license.

I would really like to support GMS2 since I loved the old one, but the new things just don't justify the pricing. It just brings GM:S to where it should be few years ago with regular development and evolution.
Good tip on Aesprite! It looks pretty cool, I'd like to play with it sometime.

I've been disappointed, too. The face lift was long overdue, but what I really want to are improvements that allow me to develop faster (and without the focus on GML, frankly). The image editor seems cool, but as primarily an artist and designer, I've never used the old image editor, and I can't see why I would have a need for the new one (though that flaming sword video was cool). The animated tiles are pretty sweet, and I don't think I've seen that in direct competitors (including my preferred software). As attractive and fun as the interface is, my limited/brief experience with the beta doesn't suggest it will be a huge boost to my productivity, and that's not accounting for the small learning curve.

My greatest disappointments start with the YouTube tutorials. I found that game pretty uninspired. It didn't seem to show off very much in the way of new features, and I felt like with the exception of some audio features, it could have been done at least as well, and at least as fast in GM8. I'm still pretty displeased with the beginner material and instruction having such a strong focus on GML (Seems a lot of users think that's the appeal of GM, though). Perhaps most disappointing of all was clicking on "Convert to Drag N Drop" and only seeing all the GML in an "Execute Code" node instead. Not perhaps, that was by far the most disappointing, just because I would never have guessed that's what would happen. I feel like limiting the ability to export would be more than adequate for evaluation purposes. I can't say I understand the value of offering a beta when users can't offer any feedback on so much of the functionality that's missing. Also, GM:S was already more expensive than competitors I like better (Thank the interwebs for Humble Bundle!), with the new software continuing that trend, I doubt I'll even purchase the base version. I'd consider that discounted price on the Master Collection a *more* reasonable price to offer the software at. I would even say that the consistent revenue stream for dedicated development, and lower barrier to entry you'd get with a small/reasonable subscription fee could have been a better play. Or possibly far too much to ask, my favorite model of all - free, unrestricted use of all software features, with a royalty on any revenue over X dollars.

There's lots of room to improve before the software leaves beta, but I can't see how it would become more appealing than a couple other programs I already prefer. Sure is pretty, though.
 

Pudsy

Member
All the new stuff looks great, though it's hard not to agree with the OP & some others here...

It appears that maybe 75% of the work has gone into the IDE? Massive improvements with the new image & room editors, new DnD etc. I appreciate there's evidence that those are heavily used by some customers, but for anyone focussed on GML/scripting, those elements won't be used too heavily. For example, there are countless 3rd party image editors (free to all-singing-and-dancing), and I'm surprised to see any attempt to compete heavily in that area. Quick image edits after importing I can understand, but that doesn't require Photoshop-standard features. In a way, the debugger overhaul in 1.x was probably more the kind of thing I would have expected from a v2.

It's a shame there aren't more fundamental improvements & additions to the engine/runners/GML. I noticed the new arrays stuff, and the lists of obsolete/new functions (which seemed mostly to cater for the new tiling & layers). But I would have liked to see some sort of evolution of the language/syntax & a more Object-Oriented approach. Multi-thread & 64-bit support, as I've seen suggested too, for example. Or are there other big changes that I've missed, and it's not mostly IDE-related improvements?

[ Brief tangent... One of my main nitpicks with v1.x is the room speed system, and having to either adopt a fixed update/render rate, or completely create your own custom timing system (either delta/tweened, or frame-skipping) & possibly ignore/waste the built-in movement/animation variables & features. So, I was happy to see the new "framerate" setting. But is it actually anything new? Under the hood, is it just handling it all in the same way? Or have there been any improvements in that area, such as options for frame skipping and/or fully independent update/render loops with auto-tweening? ]

I guess we'll need to wait & see with the various platform exporters, but I get the impression that the runners won't have changed drastically because there aren't that many new *runtime* features, mostly tweaks here & there. Certainly I'd expect some minor performance gains (I saw someone report 20%-ish?). It looks like perhaps the biggest things that would have required much work on the exporters/runners would be the new layer system & tiling/background changes...? Or are there other things I've missed here?


From a pricing point of view, I think YYG are in a tough position... and I can only offer my suggestions...

I have to agree with what I saw a staff member say recently somewhere here... Desktop GMS v2 is a steal at $100 (especially with upgrade discount). As I said, all those IDE improvements are great. I guess the pricing here has to remain very competitive to maintain hobbyist appeal.

But since there is no longer a "Pro" that you're required to purchase as a base, I guess all that work on the IDE improvements has had to be absorbed into the individual price of each platform's exporter, since they can be purchased stand-alone. So they may be priced reasonably when looked at individually, but taken together it feels like the (primarily IDE) improvements in v2 are being charged for multiple times over.

At the moment, based on where I can see all the hard work has gone, I feel like there should still be some kind of "base" component for v2. Something priced more in the region of $150-200 (with perhaps a 25-50% upgrade discount for owners of v1 "Pro" or better) wouldn't be unreasonable, as I do appreciate all the GUI/IDE changes, even if I wouldn't use most of them. Although at that price (especially if that doesn't include at least the Dekstop platform exporter), you alienate hobbyists. So that might require some separate cheaper Desktop-only license (perhaps the same $100 as v2 Desktop is currently listed for, but not eligible for other exporters), which is back where we started with v1 "Pro" being needed before you could export to any other platforms! Not an easy situation, certainly. Sorry I don't have any better suggestions there for the moment.

Beyond that, I would have liked to see the exporters have a larger discount for existing owners (eg. 75% off each, assuming that's on top of some sort of "base" upgrade priced for v2 as above). Unless there are some *massive* differences in the runners beyond minor performance tweaks & handling the new layers/tiling? Otherwise it feels like those upgrade prices are subsidising the Desktop upgrade.

I actually have no problem with the base pricing of the v2 exporters for new customers (the prices aren't too dissimilar to v1, although it's weird/unfortunate to force Android & iOS into a single purchase!). But I have to say that the upgrade prices on the exporters (eg. $240 Mobile, or $200 for MC-owners) don't sit well with me in comparison to the upgrade price for Desktop ($60, or $50 for MC), since they all benefit from the same improvements with v2 in each case (image/tile/room editors, layers, new DnD, etc.)

[ EDIT: In a nutshell... the IDE has been rewritten from scratch/ground-up, but I suspect the runners/exporters have not? I don't see that reflected in the pricing structure (in particular, upgrade discounts) ]

Given that the new pricing page indicates there will no longer be such a thing as a "Master Collection" (you just buy whichever export modules you require, and won't be able to automatically benefit from any future exporters released without separate purchases), there doesn't seem to be any advantage to early adoption of everything. And especially for anyone who only requires to export to a couple of platforms, there is no longer any incentive to pick up the other exporters until specifically needed, unless the "time-limited" upgrade discounts are more generous.

Of course, we still have v1 while support continues, as many have said. But that won't last forever, so there will be a point where we do have to upgrade if we wish to continue to use GMS in some form.

I guess it does say the pricing is "prospective". So we can only hope that feedback such as this is being sought & listened to.

Anyway, looking forward to getting stuck into GMS 2 regardless. Just sharing my "disappointing things".
 
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hdarren

Member
Calm down. It's just a beta period to test the IDE. They've already said other improvements are coming and I'm sure there will be a way to test importing your old games into the new GM2 for free when the full release is available (like how you currently can with 1.4).
 
I just wish you could still zoom in and out WITHOUT having to hold CTRL. I need to be able to zoom in and out by simply scrolling the mouse wheel. And I need to be able to zoom in and out no matter if I'm pressing the left mouse button or not.

The new way to zoom has ruined everything for me.
 
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