Asking questions not okay

Discussion in 'Community Chat' started by Hadin, Feb 11, 2017.

  1. Hadin

    Hadin Guest

    So have you "experienced" programmers implemented your often talked about blacklist against newcomers? I understand not wanting to help people demanding written code with no willingness to learn how or why it works and all that jazz.

    What I don't understand is why if someone is reading the manual and plenty of other sources of information but is still having trouble understanding the material, asking the forum is frowned upon? The answers may be in plain sight in the manual but actually understanding what it's trying to explain is a whole other thing.

    This forum seemed like a great place to ask the questions one couldn't find explained in a manner they understood elsewhere but now it's like a ghost town. Is there some unspoken limit to how much you're allowed to inquire before youre just labeled unwilling to learn or something? I spend all my free time trying to learn GML and for me, learning doesn't just mean reading a manual as the information contained therein isn't always explained in a way that makes sense to me. Im sure once I'm at a reasonable level I'll see it completely differently but as is, I don't have a coding background. This is my first foray into this world. If you assume I'm just copying and pasting code with no regards to how it works then you're assuming to know anything about me which is BS.

    Maybe the terminologies don't make sense to me or maybe I don't see a correlation between how a function is shown in an example to how it can be practically applied to writing something for a game. I'm trying to change that by studying and tinkering with as much as I can. I don't see why asking for a bit of information is such a problem. I never demanded you to write the code for me. I asked for an explanation as to how something may work or why something I tried doesn't work.

    And looking it up on Google isn't foolproof either. Most of the explanations I come across are copy and pasted codes from Shaun Spalding's or GameMaker101 tutorials with no new information as to the how or why. Its just reading the same material in a different format. You should see my search history. So I'll give asking questions a rest. Seems like they're falling on deaf ears anyways.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2017
  2. MishMash

    MishMash Member

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    There are kind of two things going on here. First of all, members are offering their time to help people answer questions. Second of all, and more importantly, it is hard for people answering questions to make assumptions about the posters knowledge. Sometimes it'll be someone who genuinly has no idea, sometimes it will be someone, perhaps like yourself, who has a rough idea, but just needs one or two smaller things clearing up. The important thing is, as much as people are replying to your questions, they are also providing answers and solutions that other people may find useful.
    If someone comes across as condescending or patronising for "assuming you are a noob", try not to read things in that way. The person helping is often trying to ensure that all bases are covered. Conversely, the people answering these questions have a range of abilities themselves. Some hope that they can give you just a small amount of code, and that that may be enough. Sometimes, the people answering the question are just people who are a few weeks ahead of yourself, and just trying to share something that helped them in an effort to help you.

    I don't think this topic is really all that constructive, and rather than getting offended by the lack of response, be grateful that you are getting questions answered at all. You are always welcome to ask follow-up questions if you feel that the answer provided was not very clear. What you are doing is fantastic! It is inspiring to see people thrive in the game dev process, however I wouldn't blame the people answering your questions, it can be easy to mis-interpret what someone is after, in the same way it may be easy for you to mis-interpret their reply.

    TLDR: If you think something is unclear, ask for clarification. If you don't think something is a useful reply, say so, but don't be aggressive about it, thank the person for taking time out of their day to atleast try and help. If there are questions that you have asked that are gathering dust, consider revising the topic, adjusting the question, or having a revisit yourself. Sometimes ideas can come to you over time.

    One final thing I would say, is that with a few exceptions (where very helpful moderators exist), people tend to answer questions that are close to their own skill level. Intermediate users will answer beginner questions, beginners may even answer novice questions. This is because advanced and experienced users tend to find the more challenging programming problems more interesting. This is certainly true for myself. This is not a detriment to those intermediate programmers, more just clarifying expectations. Some of these guys wont always provide you with perfect and correct answers, though often times they will provide solutions that can work. Equally, not everyone is on an even footing when it comes to providing an in-depth and easy-to-read explanation of why a certain bit of code behaves in the way it does.

    We also suffer from the curse of knowledge, forgetting exactly what it is like to be in a position where something is unclear, and thus people tend to assume certain things are obvious, when for someone else, they may not be.
     
  3. PandaPenguin

    PandaPenguin Guest

    hmm I don't get where this sorrow comes from
    after looking at your topics the majority of them have a [SOLVED] prefix so where does this "nobody wants to help me" come from?
    also don't confuse asking for some help and asking for a private teacher because that's what might prevent people from helping you...
    programming is not something that is for everybody because while you can learn the syntax and code to a certain degree you still need to be able to "understand" the logic behind it to be able to "use" the syntax you learned
    it is a good start that you want to learn GML but expecting people to spoon feed you code to your specific problems while there is a ton of (video) tutorials out already that help you understand the basics that you will need to understand for solving your problem
     
  4. BaBiA Game Studio

    BaBiA Game Studio Member

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    Where are you getting that from? I've looked at your previous posts, and it looks like several people are trying to help out with a lot of your questions.

    A ghost town? I come onto this forum every 30 minutes or so and there are new posts, replies, etc. so don't know why you think this is a ghost town.

    If you feel that someone is being condescending or patronising, then I would ignore the perceived tone of the message and focus simply on what might be trying to be purveyed. If you are in doubt of anything, just ask for more clarification. Nobody is here to make you feel small or criticize you when it is pretty obvious that you are not asking for someone to write all the code for you - you are just wanting some guidance.

    Stick at it, and keep asking your questions. You will find that people will be happy to guide you or point you in the direction of further information.
     
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  5. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    Its hard to get intonation over the internet. Often, a post can be read in 10 different ways!

    Often, people will ask about has to do something, but do not mention their previous efforts. Redirecting them to the manual seems like the most logical option from our point of view. If they then ask for more clarification, we can supply additional material or explain things ourselves. This is often what I do.

    One thing to remember is that the 'experienced' users have been there before, and are familiar with how it is as well.
    Often people will ask for solutions or help, when the best help they can get is simply getting their hands dirty and trying things out. That how I learnt most GML, and that's how most other GMC members did.
    Even if you get a formal education in programming, a lot of the learning will be done through exercise.

    That's why the "try it out" answer is used so often. Not because we a re lazy or don't like you, but because it is honestly the best way to find out.


    One thing is for sure, if you ask a sensible question, that is specific enough (IE, not "how to make and MMO?"), you will get an answer here. (Prove me otherwise and I'll fix that :))
     
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  6. Perseus

    Perseus Not Ragarnak Forum Staff Moderator

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    As a part of the moderating staff, I've always tried to make the GMC as forgiving and inclusive as possible. The forum guidelines already suggest that the replies should be kept civial and polite, so all I can say is that if you see posts that you consider rude or disrespectful then you should report them and something will done. Obviously this is not 100% guaranteed as sometimes a little dose of reality is required now and then, and there is often no easy or polite way to tell someone they are wrong or that we are not going to make their game for them, but in general I like to think that most cases where a user is obviously being rude or overly aggressive then we'll tell them.

    Some members believe in the strategy of "hard love" while trying to help novice users, but I don't find it amusing or effective personally. I've watched countless members start out without a clue and ask for code snippets or post full projects and request that people "fix" them only to be told (politely and with respect) that no, that's not how things work. These members have then realised their mistake and gone on to become "power" users of GM and in turn impart their knowledge here on the forums to people that are like they once were. Having a policy whereby we agree to help users rather than tell them "shape up or ship out" is what kept these people going and is what helped them to become the helpful and independant members that we have today. A harsher attitude would only have scared them off and deprived the world of some great games...

    Young people in particular are sensitive to this kind of behaviour and since you have no way of knowing the age nor the capacities of a user, it's better to err on the side of caution and if in doubt it's better NOT to post. A user that repeatedly posts demanding that their project be fixed and who receives no replies will quickly realise that they are doing something wrong and either give up (in which case this is obviously not for them) or change and learn. No need for us to browbeat them into submission.
     
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  7. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    @Ragarnak I must agree with there being a problem with the "hard love" on the GMC. Especially with a certain cold kitten...

    Though sometimes, I feel like it is necessary. Too many times have I seen my code copied, without any visible effort being made to understand it. Only to see a post a little later asking why it won't work in a different situation, often being a problem that is very easily resolved if the function of the code was understood.

    Its one of the reasons I believe that in many cases, supplying functional code may not be the best option. But rather, supplying speudo-code or partially completes code may be a better alternative.
     
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  8. Docker

    Docker Member

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    Firstly you have to remember that every person who is helping you is doing it in their own free time, most of the time they are answering a question they know the answer to with no research so they learn nothing from the experience, they are doing it to help you and nothing more so every reply you get you should be thankful for as nobody has any obligation to provide those replies.

    I remember sitting at my computer for 10 hours straight and only moving for drinks and toilet breaks when I first started just to figure out some code that will now take me 10 minutes however I learned more in those 10 hours than any reply from someone else giving me the 'how' but not the 'why' ever could. Because of this and the fact self learning is a large part of university life I hold the belief that others CAN do the same with just tutorials, the manual and google... despite this you will often see me in the programming section replying to any question within my skill set and generally (I believe?) providing an explanation of what the code is actually doing and most importantly why, unless they are asking something non basic then I make the assumption then know about loops, collisions etc.

    I rarely see any regular poster 'shaming' newer members for asking questions, they may dumb it down to a way that seems patronizing but that's because they ARE trying to explain the why's, if you're asking how to essentially use place_meeting for a collision event then the assumption will be made that you have little grasps of the small fundamentals of programming/GML as an intermediate person would have a rough idea and if they didn't then their instincts (should) take them to the documentation/manual/API every time and then they would grasp it rather immediately.

    The forum is definitely not a ghost town, if you aren't getting a reply then it's most likely one of these 3 things:
    People don't know the answer
    Your question does not provide adequate detail
    You've not provided reasonable code to even begin to allow us to debug your problem.

    Programming is a never ending cycle of learning and complex logic puzzles and the reality is someone isn't always going to be there to help. You need to also develop the skills to help yourself even if that means staring at a screen for an entire day middle clicking every command in your code and reading the entire page and really taking the time to understand what its doing and googling every programming term you don't understand. I refuse to believe that people can't learn this way but instead they don't want to spend hours trying which I can understand at times despite what I've said, but in reality that is the life of a programmer at times.
     
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  9. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    I totally get the frustration you (the OP) are experiencing. When I was new to the forums (oh so many years ago), I remember feeling much the same way, at times. What you must realize is that these forums are a living, breathing entity. The tides of helpful answers and non-helpful replies ebb and flow. Learning to code in this churning sea of novices-to-experts and friendlies-to-jerks probably isn't the best way to learn.

    Also, don't feel bad or mad at the forum, please. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the barrel. And allow me to commiserate with you that I still, after 10 years of gamemakering, find things in the manual difficult to follow and understand at times. It's just a matter of continuing to rephrase and clarify the question, and follow up with more questions, until you're lucky enough to find the little fish that explains things in the way you understand. The GMC is a big ocean and those little fish aren't always easy to find, and sometimes aren't even around.

    (just trying to help)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
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  10. Hadin

    Hadin Guest

    Using myself as the example was a poor choice but it seemed the easiest way to write about what's bothering me. Reading through past threads on here and coming across the elitist mentality or people's desire to not answer questions anymore is the real catalyst for my opinions here. Though there's been a significant drop off in a willingness to help and that's been disappointing me as well. I wouldn't say all the threads with a solved prefix were solved necessarily but didn't want people to keep posting things after I started figuring it out more (whether from someones suggestion, outside source of help or whatever).

    I can only speak for myself but I don't want code written for me. I'm genuinely trying to understand it all and make sense of how and why it all works, not just have a mediocre game that I say "I made."

    I apologize if I'm causing any problems. I am not trying to offend anyone or start pointless arguments. I wish there was a better option for asking people for help understanding something but a las I haven't found it. Regardless of not understanding many things, I'm not giving up. I've had too much of a desire to learn how to make videogames for too long so just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and eventually something's gotta click. I have learned a great deal as is but its nowhere near enough to make anything substantial. I knew going in that'd be the case.

    This is exactly how I am spending my time. I'm apparently just stupid then as this method is not providing adequate help with certain aspects, or I don't understand the problem well enough to even search for the help I'd need. I am grateful for any reply I get and understand all the help is provided willingly.

    Moderator Edit: Multiple posts merged. Please try using the EDIT button to add more content instead of creating a new post every time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2017
  11. Posh Indie

    Posh Indie Member

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    You forget that assistance by anyone but YoYo Games employees is entirely out of generosity. Experienced programmers don't just come here to serve you.

    Let's look at it from the other side. Newcomers seem to think experienced programmers are obligated to be on standby waiting patiently for their questions. Experienced programmers have lives as well (Contrary to popular belief! Haha). Newcomers sometimes even treat experienced programmers (that generously donated their time to answering their question in the first place) like garbage, which is not an optimal way to receive further assistance.

    And then some newcomers are just never happy with the amount of support they have already received and play the victim card for some unknown reason. You may have shot yourself in the foot here.

    You admittedly have no background in programming. Learn the basics first and the cryptic portions of the documentation you visited will be much easier to understand.

    You would not become an astronaut by immediately jumping into the rocket. (Well, you could, but I would not advise it)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
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  12. Adhiesc

    Adhiesc Member

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    I'm an intermediate programmer (imo) and I honestly don't reply for any questions that is actually on my level or less, the reasons are:
    - I already found someone replied to it helpfully and I have no other knowledge to impart since I'm also limited in knowledge.
    - The poster doesn't seem to be asking nicely as if the forum is obligated to answer. (it's kinda rare for me to see it here though)
    Well, to be honest, I found this forum very helpful, since sometimes I don't even know what to search on google to clearly state my problem.
     
  13. zbox

    zbox Member GMC Elder

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    Have you tried going on StackOverflow? You will come back here with an overwhelming sense of appreciation ;)
     
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  14. HayManMarc

    HayManMarc Member

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    I'd like to add, a tremendous amount of basic questions have been answered in the GMC legacy archive. Searching the archive for answers to ground-level programming in gml should be one of your steps for finding answers, too, in my opinion.

    http://gmc.yoyogames.com
     
  15. Hadin

    Hadin Guest

    I never said nor believe anyone here's purpose is to serve anyone other than themselves. I'm at the point where I'm not going to bother asking questions anyways so my foots just fine. I was never here to leech codes off someone. Tinkering and the manual will be enough for now. If it takes years to understand even the basics then that's what it takes. This was never gonna be a career, just something more to kill time with.

    @HayManMarc, I've been going through the old forums since starting, figuring all the basic questions I'd have were on there in some form or another but thanks regardless.
     
  16. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    I really don't get where you are coming from with this topic at all... I mean 80% of your posts have been marked as solved, and of the other 20% all have answers. Not once have you been "ignored", and in every single topic I've looked at you've received helpful advice (if not a correct answer). Looking at this topic in particular, I was struck by that last post...

    It was made at 1.11pm, but your first post that day was less than hour earlier... 12.37. The post before THAT was 24 hours before. Now, you took 24 hours to reply, but when you don't get a reply in less than an hour you're complaining? You posted a question today and within 10 minutes you had a reply...

    Now, I'm not saying you are wrong per-se, but I do question where this idea that the forum isn't helpful or elitist or whatever you are inferring comes from? Sure we have a couple of cool and toasty members, but I don't think I've seen a report for a rude reply in the last year, and I think you'd be hard pushed to find any topic older than week that hasn't had some form of reply trying to help...

    I'm not trying to be mean here, just understand why you think these things as I am actually really proud of the community we have built here and can't see any evidence from your posting history to back up the claims you are making. I want this forum to be the best and friendliest community it can possibly be and so I need to understand why someone would think negatively of it so I can help work towards solving the issue.

    PS: If this is something related to specific members, feel free to PM me and we can talk in private. I understand that you may not wish to talk openly about other members (and would rather you didn't, anyway), but I'm always available to chat about issues and try to resolve things as discreetly as possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  17. Hadin

    Hadin Guest

    I wasnt speaking about myself specifically or at least in regards to all of my posts or anything. The main reference to myself was about my last couple of my posts but I don't explain myself very well so that's my fault.
     
  18. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

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    Ah, okay! Well, if you think this is a general issue and you see posts that you think are unhelpful, rude or just plain mean, feel free to report them. The staff here are all sensible people and we really don't mind reports for things like this... We can't improve the forum if we know nothing of the issue. A simple report saying "Unhelpful reply" or something only takes a second for a member of staff to check. :)

    I would also say that I'm sorry that your experience or general impression of the forums is a negative one. We've had our ups and downs, but in the last year or so I've found the people on the forums to be more helpful and friendly than ever... but I can't be in all places at all times so it's easy for me to miss things - and I'm obviously biased as I love this place!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
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  19. Posh Indie

    Posh Indie Member

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    Then why make this thread? You effectively raised a torch and pitchfork, handed them off to some other sad sap, and hoped to start a revolution you would not even take part in. What I am asking is; What did you hope to achieve with this thread? If you hoped to make a change, why would you not even bother to be around to see the effects. You would be hard pressed to find something that has not received a satisfactory answer here, and when you do... it just went through without someone more knowledgeable on the subject noticing it (Not a very common situation at all). It happens everywhere, not just here. We are far from prophets, we do not know the exact moment a question relevant to our knowledge is posted (I personally do not tend to dig too deep into the pages of forums, so if it falls off page one you can assume I will be out of the loop).

    These forums are far friendlier than most forums on the internet. Sure, sometimes there is heated debate, but that is also a learning tool if looked at from the proper perspective (I would also like to point out that heated debate happens everywhere, not just here). When people step out of line they get told about it, I assure you. You may not see it publicly but the moderators here do contact people directly and ask them to dial it back (I had received one myself, so I promise you; It happens, haha). If they publicly shamed everyone they were given a chance to this forum would be a parasitic swamp like most of the others.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
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  20. TheMatrixHasMe

    TheMatrixHasMe Member

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    I actually understand where Hadin is coming from. I personally have had the same feeling but coming from maybe a slightly more experienced place than him as I'm not really a newbie. I do often get that ghost town vibe though. I think the issue is that there really isn't that much staff it seems and the staff that is on is often pre-occupied with other things in their lives or maybe they just don't care as much anymore. I personally love GMS & now GMS2 and perhaps because of that my expectations are higher but yeah 7 - 8 billion people in the world and the greatest public 2d engine on the planet in my opinion and I actually do think these forums are kind of ghost town-ish for what I think the products potential is.

    Edit: A perfect example of this is a spam advertisement below this link that is 30 minutes old and was reported by me over 20 minutes ago. I would think it would take a mod 2 seconds to get rid of this. The reason it hasn't happened is because there is no staff online right now. There's your ghost town guys.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  21. Lukan

    Lukan Gay Wizard Freak

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    We have an often talked about blacklist of newcomers?
    Oh no, if I don't know about it, I must be on it! D:
     
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  22. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

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    No, you aren't on it. But you're on the waiting list to get on the blacklist. These things take time.

    I'd like to see the GMC grow too -- especially with more experienced users like yourself. Based on comments from Mike and Russell (Studio developers), the GMC membership represents a small fraction of Studio customers. There's definitely room to grow. So maybe you have some ideas for attracting more experienced Studio users to the GMC.

    As for the spam that lingered, that's probably my fault since I was online at the time. Just busy with some member PMs so I didn't see the report.
     
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  23. TheMatrixHasMe

    TheMatrixHasMe Member

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    I'm not saying I have all the answers and I definitely don't have the numbers, however I'm guessing it's not an attraction issue as much as a retention issue. I think newbies naturally come here looking for answers. I do believe the forum migration that happened a number of months ago was more damaging and difficult then had been planned. I do know as a frequenter of the forums it was a big absence always wondering when you guys were coming back and then when you finally did come back that it still took a while for you guys to start showing up in google searches again. Maybe it will just take some time.

    As most of us know, once you reach a certain point you don't need the forums as much because you learn how this stuff works and when something doesn't work you often know where to look in the documentation or how to use the debugger or any other number of ways to problem solve. You're no longer in the dark and that's what the community is really good for.

    As far as the spam, it's not a big deal and I hope I'm not coming across as pointing fingers at any one here. I don't really have any beef with anyone in particular I was just pointing at things that can lend themselves to the ghost town feeling. While I'm not sure if the same feeling that I get is the one Hadin was trying to articulate I think sometimes little things like that can paint that picture and put it in users minds.
     
  24. Blakkid489

    Blakkid489 Member

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    Sadly I understand and a lot of the time my questions and/or topics get skimmed and ignored (or answered 3-4 days later). Not sure why but this has led me to not ask questions anymore and just help those in need with their WIP or Demos that need feedback. I generally don't want others to feel discouraged when asking for help so if it's in my knowledge, I'll definitely give my two cents.
     
  25. Beersy

    Beersy Guest

    I saw this and HAD to reply cuz this touches a nerve with me. There are what I call geeks and nerds who can breathe this stuff in, and for some reason have a mean and hateful attitude towards people who are trying to learn. Learning lets define learning. How many tutorials are out there where they WANT you to copy and paste the code to get things going? Thats how people HAVE to learn when these geeks and nerds are mean to the ones trying to learn. I had this happen to me the other day about coding. I asked a question and this guy goes down my throat and calls me lazy. I mean wtf!? I asked for help and thats how i get treated? Im not the best and im not the worst but im wanting to learn and i bet i put more heart into my projects then half the people here. Calling me lazy for asking for help is a bunch of crap! And i will always stand up for the people who are trying to learn however they have to learn. If someone asks the dumbest Game Maker question and everyone laughs or ignores him for whatever reason i will jump in and do what i can to help because thats what i would want if i had a question.
     
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  26. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    To all that claim hatred towards the less GM-inclined. Could you post an example of such problems? Because I have yet to see anything unreasonable.
     
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  27. Beersy

    Beersy Guest

    the other day i asked for help on building a dialogue system with GM studio 1.4. I have one with 8.1 but half the functions wont transfer over to studio. I simply asked for help on a dialogue script and this complete a - -hole went down my throat and said figure it out myself and called me a lazy ass who just want to copy other peoples codes. not true at all
     
  28. Docker

    Docker Member

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    I saw that thread and your response toward him was a disgrace, even if he was a dick in his first post I would have refused to help after seeing what you responded as you could have just ignored it like an adult and instead you launched a full scale attack on him.
    The response has since been removed no doubt due to my report.
     
  29. Beersy

    Beersy Guest

    yah well you think im going to let someone do that to me and not defend myself? i didnt deserve to be treated like that...if any ignoring, it should have been that dude for not responding to my question! what he did was a disgrace. regardless that ties into helping. if someone needs help they should beable to ask anything and not feel like someone is going to be a complete punk to them, and i stand up for those people,i may have said some nasty stuff but thats pretty offensive when your innocently asking for help and get treated like that. So ill say im sorry for what i said im not sorry for defending myself and others who get treated badly for asking help
     
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  30. GMWolf

    GMWolf aka fel666

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    oops fair enough.
    But that is probably the first time i have seen such hostilites on the forums...
    But check it out, he was not a very active user, and you go a bunch of people lining up ready to offer you some help.

    But this is the internet. defending yourself is next to useless. Contact a moderator, and do you best to ignore the trolls. But it is really not a GMC policy to act that way. feel free to ask question. (but do keep in mind that a lot of us may still try to direct you to find the answer yourself, if its more appropriate)
     
  31. Beersy

    Beersy Guest

    once again i apologize....that was uncalled for, but all you guys know how hard i work my ass off on making games which is my passion and someone comes out and insults me like that is like someone going to my 2 year old and saying hes a bad kid for no reason. Thats all iim saying so for everyone reading this im sorry for my actions
     
  32. Docker

    Docker Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2016
    Posts:
    122
    No he was a dick who made a nonconstructive post , but your whole 'you're a sad lonely spotty greasy overweight virgin' style response is not what I expect from a man in his 30's, especially not for being referred to as a lazy ass... feeling the need to defend yourself against words is childish. The simple solution was to just report the post as I did with yours, believe me I also wanted to write a response to both of you.
     
    HayManMarc and Nocturne like this.
  33. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2016
    Posts:
    6,845
    Okay, so you had the misfortune to bump into one of the more obnoxious members of the forum... but that doesn't mean everyone is bad (nor that you should respond in kind)! Just look at the literally hundreds of topics that get answers (and helpful ones at that!) every day. When you get replies like that you should simply report them and ignore, or even block that member from your profile page. ;)
     
    HayManMarc likes this.
  34. Beersy

    Beersy Guest

    your all right, and if you guys forgive me that would be awesome, im usually a really outgoing person that wants to help and socialize with people that make games. i wont lash out on someone again i promise!
     
    KingdomOfGamez and Nocturne like this.
  35. Nocturne

    Nocturne Friendly Tyrant Forum Staff Admin

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2016
    Posts:
    6,845
    Lol! Forgive yourself! Seriously, this topic isn't about you specifically, and we all get a bit hot under the collar at times, so no worries. :)

    But to everyone, do NOT be afraid to report posts that are offensive, or unhelpful. The mods here do a great job, but they can't see everything that happens so your reports are necessary. And don't be afraid to report something minor... We don't mind looking over a topic, and we may do nothing or we may decide you are correct, but if you don't report it you'll never know.
     
    Pfap, HayManMarc and Beersy like this.
  36. NPT

    NPT Guest

    Ever notice that when these topics come up, topic creators never link to examples to demonstrate that their complaints are the systemic issue that they portray them as.
     
    Lukan likes this.
  37. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Posts:
    789
    True, but that's just as well. Topics made to complain about other topics aren't helpful. Nor is calling out specific members in public. Better to deal with disagreements in private -- or report them if they become truly offensive.
     
  38. NPT

    NPT Guest

    I hardly consider posting a list of a few topics that support the claim, calling out specific members.

    It's also impossible to "call out specific members" for topics with no replies. The main reason these topics don't support their claims is because they can't support their claims. They're simply not true or so grossly over exagerated.

    Peruse down the Q&A forums and you will see topic after topic with multiple replies, often to a solution.

    On the rare occasion, that topics do go unanswered, it's almost always because there simply is no solution or the OP has not provided enough information. And even when this happens many members go well above and beyond to extract the required information out of the members.

    This topic is disrespectful to those who do go out of their way to help others, it should have been shutdown almost immediately after creation under the category of fake news.
     
    BaBiA Game Studio and Nocturne like this.
  39. Ampersand

    Ampersand Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2017
    Posts:
    216
    This attitude from experienced members is a result of the general attitude of newer members.

    I recently offered some help in posts to someone, and when they still couldn't figure it out, I let them know I would whip up a working example whenever I got the chance. Two days later I was called a liar in the post and in a personal message. I still made the example (honestly more of a base engine), which took me 2-3 hours of personal time to complete, and was promptly asked to do more when I posted the project file. He probably hadn't even looked at the code.

    I personally love overcoming obstacles, and like teaching what I can to new members, but I think many new members expect a little much sometimes.
     
  40. FrostyCat

    FrostyCat Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Posts:
    4,435
    What drives experienced members batty is this constant "I am a visual learner/dyslexic/ADHD/young" BS that novices use as a crutch for not reading instructions. Way too often they can read the instructions, they just choose not to. People who took time to write these instructions are right to be pissed off.

    If you claim that the Manual has instructions explained in a way that isn't conducive to being understood by a novice, prove it and show some examples.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  41. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Posts:
    789
    I don't think the OP meant any disrespect. Although I don't agree with suggestions that GMC members aren't helpful, I can understand how many beginners become frustrated.

    As for the topic, I think the general tone has been civil, so there was no reason to close it immediately. There were some good comments from experienced members. Naturally, it will run its course at some point, but I think the discussion has been useful so far. I think there's room for both sides to understand each other a little better.

    EDIT: clarity / spelling
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
    Nocturne likes this.
  42. JackTurbo

    JackTurbo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Posts:
    823
    Having only been using GMS for about 6-8 months I'm a relatively new forum user and I consider myself a intermediate GML coder at best, but if I see a thread asking for help from a poster who sounds like they've already tried some things to fix it themselves then I'll see what I can do and I am generally more than happy to.

    If it is a relatively simple thing I'll probably explain it relatively explicitly.

    If its a bit more complex however, I'll likely suggest how I would approach the issue in a more conceptual manner. I do this for a few reasons.
    • its quicker than working out the exact code.
    • I dont necessarily know everything that is going on in their project, so there may be conflicts or other complications.
    • And most importantly, if they can understand the concepts I'm talking about and thus code the solution themselves then they have not only learnt more than they would by copy pasting, but they are also less likely to have problems down the line.

    There is also a real balancing point however. I love that these forums on the whole feel very supportive (in my opinion at least) and I enjoy being a part of the supportive side of GMC. However I do feel that the community's mandate in regards to the support forums like the 'programing' and 'community tech support' boards is to give advice and help to those that are stuck and not to act as 'ghost-programmers', there is a distinction there that i feel some new users don't appreciate.
     
    Nocturne and chance like this.
  43. chance

    chance predictably random Forum Staff Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2016
    Posts:
    789
    I agree, well said. That's how it should be. I think most beginners understand that. Of course, the "beginner experience" on the GMC can vary widely -- depending on which members they interact with, how well they pose their question, and how much effort they exert themselves.

    The initial GMC experience is like that folktale about blind men discovering an elephant. Depending on which body part they happen to touch, they each form entirely different opinions about the elephant.
     
  44. SyntheticStorm9

    SyntheticStorm9 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Posts:
    98
    11,000 Members means 11,000 different kinds of responses.
    You can't judge an barrel of apples by the first one you see.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  45. Xer0botXer0

    Xer0botXer0 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Posts:
    669
    The community is nice.
     
  46. obscene

    obscene Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2016
    Posts:
    2,408
    Of course asking questions is OK, but also realize it's a non-stop avalanche and sometimes new members show up with broken English, confusing questions, vague useful information and then when you make the mistake of trying to help them by prying actual useful information you need from them to help you've replied 20 times to a brick wall, given up and now have someone stalking you in private messages, on Facebook, on Twitter, saying "WHY NO RESPOND I NEED U HELP MY GAME BROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    So if someone ever comes across slightly irritable just realize you'll probably understand why a year or two from now.
     
    rIKmAN likes this.
  47. leveller

    leveller Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2016
    Posts:
    12
    To build and maintain a healthy community, everyone has to be welcome regardless of level of knowledge and experience.

    Be polite.

    A solution would be 2 separate forums - BEGINNERS questions - and 1337 GMS CODERZ questions. Doubt anyone would be listening to me though because I am a beginner with a truck load of noob questions piling up.
     
  48. rIKmAN

    rIKmAN Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2016
    Posts:
    4,433
    The majority of members on this forum are willing to help others if (a) they have the time and (b) they have the knowledge.

    What most aren't willing to do (myself included) is have to do a load of extra work to try and help the person requesting assistance.
    The person asking the question should have already spent time checking the manual, Googling for tutorials and other threads where the same question has been asked before etc, and if that comes up with no results or they are still having problems THEN make a thread - tell people what you have tried, where you have looked, resources you have already looked at etc.

    The problem is many new users hit a problem and rather than do any of the above they instantly post a thread with a title which has no information in it ("Please help me"), and body text which gives no information to anyone who might be willing to help ("Why won't my player won't move, help pls") which means they then have to waste time extracting information from somebody - which is sometimes like pulling teeth.

    If someone does then help them anyway - usually with code - then hours later the same person is back with another problem because they didn't take the time to learn or understand what the last bit of code they copy/pasted was doing, and they ultimately learn nothing along the way and start to use the forum as a crutch for their lack of willingness to learn and understand.

    I try to give pointers to people rather than code - links to the manual, tutorials etc so they can go off and learn themselves about how the various pieces fit together and work - but I guess this could be misconstrued as "not being willing to help" when people have an entitled attitude and expect somebody to write their code for them within an hour.

    On a brighter note, this is one of the most helpful communities I've ever been part of, and although more transparency from YYG wouldn't go amiss rather than just closing / locking threads they don't want to answer, I definitely can't fault the members on here in terms of their willingness to help and general "community" behaviour.
     
  49. curato

    curato Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2016
    Posts:
    372
    Best advice I can offer is be the change you want to see. Be nice to other members and if you see some one need help you think you can provide go for it.
     
    Nocturne likes this.
  50. Andy

    Andy Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    Posts:
    185
    Honestly, I wouldn't even be upset if someone asked what a sprite resource was. There’s no obligation to answer questions, so if someone asks something (even if it’s easy to find in the manual) why be upset? If it’s an easy question, that just makes answering it easy. It’s also never good to assume the person asking for help is able. They may speak a different language, be extremely young, or have problems learning. A simple question may not be simple for them because of their material circumstances.
    The only time I understand being upset with questions would be if someone was persistently demanding their question be answered, or spamming the PM inbox of experienced members.
    This forum is for a tool called GameMaker, novice questions from people who might not even know what computer code is should be expected.
    Thankfully I don't see people being mean to newcomers publicly. I have asked lot's of silly questions over the years, and no one's been mean about answering them. People hear usually will go out of their way to help. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019

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