A word on forum attitude.

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Sybok

Member
For a forum of 14,287. Losing 3 every six months sounds like really good figures in my opinion. I'm not even sure the normal death rate would be that low.

Some of these account deletion requests would often be due to personal issues too, I suspect.

I know losing anyone is sad day, but there is an old saying about trying to keep everyone happy.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
For a forum of 14,287. Losing 3 every six months sounds like really good figures in my opinion. I'm not even sure the normal death rate would be that low.
Those are the people who ask for account deletion.
Most would just walk away.
Can you imagine how devastated you must be to ask for an account deletion?

And besides, people are leaving because of hurtful messages. It doesn't matter how many. Everyone is important. And we should continually strive towards having a nicer, kinder community.
 

Sybok

Member
Absolutely agree. But the internet is a fickle place. You can be the worlds best one day and the worlds worst the next.

Look at the posts towards YYG for example. At the moment they are at the top of the wave. It takes one change by Apple or Google to break an exporter and suddenly everyone goes after YYG by the throat.

You can't keep everyone happy no matter how hard you try.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Some of these account deletion requests would often be due to personal issues too, I suspect.
We get very few account deletion requests actually, which is what makes the three I've received stand out in my mind. And no, they weren't because of personal issues. They stated VERY clearly it was because of the way they had been treated for asking a question.

You can't keep everyone happy no matter how hard you try.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. ;)
 

Sybok

Member
Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. ;)
Well sure, you can. But it's a fast road to depression if you take it to heart.

Take it from a former life long 'people pleaser'. Doesn't mean I won't strive to be polite consistently. But I'm now at that point in life where if someone doesn't want pleasing, I'll cut my losses with them and move on.
 

zendraw

Member
you take it too deeply this ratio, a bunch out of thousands. this happens in every community. there are aways going to be those who only cry about safe space. they just cant cope with anything and we are not living in an incubator here. people get frustrated, they are mean sometimes bla bla bla whatever, no1 is perfect and this is impossible to ask everyone to behave at your standarts like being kind 100% of the time. and incase some nice guy gives himself as an example, well people are fundamentally diffrent, there is diversity. i for instance when i have a problem and make a topic i expect some discussion on the point, i dont want to be told to check the manual. as i alredy stated, with people you can learn more then the manual can give you and you can get suggestions for better practices. its not just for solving a problem, but an oppurtunity to progress further.

just face the fact that there are gona be crybabies that will leave which wont impact this community in the slightest.
its fine to be dissatisfied or offended with people. thats how you grow. and be realistic, people who cant cope with anything dont really form the community, they dont offer anything but just leech safe space. and will get more and more offended the more you talk. just sayng to them, safe space isnt everything, triggers and offends them and puts them on a jihad against you.

the community will lose if some of the active users leave, like mathroo frosty gmwolf my love tsuka and more.

also noc, these people who go out of theyr way to ask you to delete theyr account are just being dramatic, not really that offended. its just no otbvious enough becouse there is not exposure from them. i for instance cant be dramatic cus every1 alredy knows nothing really offends me here.
 

zendraw

Member
Interesting you mention the manual. Do you feel that the manual should be the first point of reference before posting a question?
you asked me the same question about the manual that i answered you in that comment what is not clear to you from my comments? you cant drag me in your drama. what is the purpose of you asking me the same question twice? not twice but multiple times.
 

Sybok

Member
Mainly because of the contradictions amongst your posts.

But now you've made it clear, you refuse to look in the manual to see how basic functions should behave. Your preference is to have some dude on a forum answer that for you.

Prime example being "what happen's if I don't use surface_reset()". Wait an hour for as response on a forum post to say it doesn't work, as you did. Or the other option of press F1 and type in "surfaces".

I know what I'd choose. But agreed, there are personality types that need to be told the answer as basic English may not be their strong point. Although oddly enough this is a strictly English speaking forum, so I guess that makes that point moot.
 

saffeine

Member
this happens in every community.
just because it happens in every community doesn't mean we should let our guard down.
just because this forum is more green than red, it doesn't mean that it's green, it could just be a weird shade of yellow ( or brown if you want to mix your colours like that instead. i won't judge. )
nobody should have to just 'suck it up, because we're not stackoverflow'. if something is wrong, something is wrong. we shouldn't be comparing our neutral practices to bad ones to give off the illusion that they're good.

there are aways going to be those who only cry about safe space. they just cant cope with anything and we are not living in an incubator here.
nobody is crying about safe space. there's a discussion about just being a decent human being, it's a little bit different.
a vast majority of the people being criticised in the worst ways take it surprisingly well. the point is, they shouldn't have to.

i for instance when i have a problem and make a topic i expect some discussion on the point, i dont want to be told to check the manual.
that's great! discussion is good! all of us are criticising unnecessary rudeness, not discussion.
if you don't want to be told to check the manual, then tell people that. we're arguing that you should have the right to not be ridiculed for it.
i too would rather receive discussion on a post than be told to look in the manual, but if i should be looking in the manual, then that's the discussion to be had.
furthermore, i'm not someone who would directly benefit from this thread, despite being the original poster. i just don't think you need to struggle to know that other people are.

the community will lose if some of the active users leave, like mathroo frosty gmwolf my love tsuka and more.
agreed. doesn't mean we won't miss out on expanding our audience and growing the community.

you know, if this thread doesn't benefit you, it doesn't mean you have to disagree with it. you can simply continue using the forums as you always have.
you won't lose anything from us asking the general public to be kinder. if despite that fact you still want to object to a friendlier environment, you're acting out of selfishness or spite.
 
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zendraw

Member
just because it happens in every community doesn't mean we should let our guard down.




nobody is crying about safe space. there's a discussion about just being a decent human being, it's a little bit different.
a vast majority of the people being criticised in the worst ways take it surprisingly well. the point is, they shouldn't have to.


that's great! discussion is good! all of us are criticising unnecessary rudeness, not discussion.
if you don't want to be told to check the manual, then tell people that. we're arguing that you should have the right to not be ridiculed for it.


agreed. doesn't mean we won't miss out on expanding our audience and growing the community.

you know, if this thread doesn't benefit you, it doesn't mean you have to disagree with it. you can simply continue using the forums as you always have.
you won't lose anything from us asking the general public to be kinder.
well you say you have no problem discussing stuff and that its great but then you tell me to leave, nicely. which one is it? this topic wont benefit anyone, what is nececery is communication, which is the mod`s job. which i assume theyr alredy doing.

and as i alredy talked about, nice and rude isnt black and white. look for instance sybok here, he constantly tryes to shove in the manual thing when i alredy explained a dozen times why talking with people is better. i will copy and paste it for him in bold text, maybe it penetrates his agenda. and thats what it really is, hes trying to prove a point he cant prove becouse its purely ideologic, if i need to explain to him every sense and why and whats then he really arent qualified to talk about it.

with people you can go from a to b to c, maybe learn some new technique, this you cannot see in the manual. so yes i wuld advice even for stupid questions to ask people and discuss it with them rather then read some text that is as old as the bible.
 

pixeltroid

Member
Interesting you mention the manual. Do you feel that the manual should be the first point of reference before posting a question?
The thing is, the manual has to be interpreted and applied. It's pretty much useless if the person posting the question doesn't know much about coding. They simply wouldn't know what to do with the information contained in the manual.

Telling a new user to just look at the manual is not very helpful. If the new user has put in some effort into their game, it's much better to just give him those few lines of code that would solve his problem and be done with it. He, in turn, might feel encouraged and learn better by seeing the code work in his own game.
 

saffeine

Member
well you say you have no problem discussing stuff and that its great but then you tell me to leave, nicely. which one is it? this topic wont benefit anyone, what is nececery is communication, which is the mod`s job. which i assume theyr alredy doing.

and as i alredy talked about, nice and rude isnt black and white. look for instance sybok here, he constantly tryes to shove in the manual thing when i alredy explained a dozen times why talking with people is better. i will copy and paste it for him in bold text, maybe it penetrates your agenda. and thats what it really is, your trying to prove a point you cant prove becouse its purely ideologic, if i need to explain to you every sense and why and whats then you really arent qualified to talk about it.

with people you can go from a to b to c, maybe learn some new technique, this you cannot see in the manual. so yes i wuld advice even for stupid questions to ask people and discuss it with them rather then read some text that is as old as the bible.
i didn't think i'd have to explain this one, but i suppose i do.
i have no problem discussing stuff, i have been discussing stuff for six pages.
i haven't told you to leave a single time, so if you have evidence of that i really would love to see it.
in fact, i've responded to far more of your posts than i ideally would have liked to, just for the sake of actually having a discussion.
i talked about everyone having their limits a few posts back and at this point i'm uncomfortably close to mine, and yet here i am continuing to discuss without throwing cruelties your way.

nice and rude isn't black and white, no. but the shades of grey are few and far between. the secret is in the wording and the intent.
please read the manual on the 3d functions and how they work before asking, it seems as though you don't understand yet. is nice.
you clearly don't understand how 3d works yet, so of course it isn't going to work. is closer to the middle, but is still well-intended.
are you stupid? 3d doesn't work like that. go back and learn how to make a 2d platformer before you try 3d. is hostile and doesn't provide a reference for them to work towards ( the bridge between 2d and 3d ).

you haven't penetrated my agenda at all. firstly because there is no agenda, and secondly because the pumpkin seed you threw at it left nothing more than an unpleasant stain.

if you understand surfaces and their functions, then nobody will tell you to read the manual.
if you tell someone that you read the manual and you still don't quite get it, then they might explain.
if sybok is still giving you pathetic and condescending advice, then all that does is prove my point more, and yet you still disagree.
i'm not involved in the thread, so as far as anyone on this thread is concerned that's a very personal issue that needs to be addressed by the two of you. we're not mediators.

i didn't realise i needed a qualification to practice humility, but you learn something new every day i suppose.

and before there's a chance to pull the 'being passive aggressive is mean' card after a few light jabs, i'd like to bring this quote to your attention a second time:
furthermore, if there's been a back and forth exchange for a few posts, i can't fault you for eventually running out of patience. it's not something i wanted to mention in the original post, but it does happen.
 
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Homunculus

Member
with people you can go from a to b to c, maybe learn some new technique, this you cannot see in the manual. so yes i wuld advice even for stupid questions to ask people and discuss it with them rather then read some text that is as old as the bible.
I can't agree with this. If you use the forum as the primary method to learn anything, instead of using the documentation for this purpose, you are simply taking advantage of the fact that you can, without thinking if you should.

The manual is the common ground, you can't simply dismiss it in favour of a discussion, you are basically wasting the time of the people who are going to reply, when in fact an interesting conversation could instead be made on top of the knowledge you get from the manual.
As @pixeltroid correctly stated though you can't always expect everyone to refer to the manual before asking a question, and "look in the manual" should not be the default answer, but not doing that on principle because "I just want people to explain it to me" is a mindset I definitely can't agree with.
 

zendraw

Member
i didn't think i'd have to explain this one, but i suppose i do.
i have no problem discussing stuff, i have been discussing stuff for six pages.
i haven't told you to leave a single time, so if you have evidence of that i really would love to see it.
in fact, i've responded to far more of your posts than i ideally would have liked to, just for the sake of actually having a discussion.
i talked about everyone having their limits a few posts back and at this point i'm uncomfortably close to mine, and yet here i am continuing to discuss without throwing cruelties your way.

nice and rude isn't black and white, no. but the shades of grey are few and far between. the secret is in the wording and the intent.
please read the manual on the 3d functions and how they work before asking, it seems as though you don't understand yet. is nice.
you clearly don't understand how 3d works yet, so of course it isn't going to work. is closer to the middle, but is still well-intended.
are you stupid? 3d doesn't work like that. go back and learn how to make a 2d platformer before you try 3d. is hostile and doesn't provide a reference for them to work towards ( the bridge between 2d and 3d ).

you haven't penetrated my agenda at all. firstly because there is no agenda, and secondly because the pumpkin seed you threw at it left nothing more than an unpleasant stain.

if you understand surfaces and their functions, then nobody will tell you to read the manual.
if you tell someone that you read the manual and you still don't quite get it, then they might explain.
if sybok is still giving you pathetic and condescending advice, then all that does is prove my point more, and yet you still disagree.
i'm not involved in the thread, so as far as anyone on this thread is concerned that's a very personal issue that needs to be addressed by the two of you. we're not mediators.

i didn't realise i needed a qualification to practice humility, but you learn something new every day i suppose.
i was talking about his agenda not yours. and to answer homunculus aswell, im not disregarding the manual nor do i ask for alot of help on the forum. and again this comes from people who have some dry knowledge and logic and dont see that making a topic is far more useful then just going to the manual. this is rude to just point someone to the manual, if you know somthing, say it, share. use the oppurtunity to enrich the people, if you dont know anything just spare the manual talk. and i am certain that most people who just stop using the forum for help are people who got the manual card a few times too meny. i think we can all agree on that.
 

saffeine

Member
i was talking about his agenda not yours. and to answer homunculus aswell, im not disregarding the manual nor do i ask for alot of help on the forum. and again this comes from people who have some dry knowledge and logic and dont see that making a topic is far more useful then just going to the manual. this is rude to just point someone to the manual, if you know somthing, say it, share. use the oppurtunity to enrich the people, if you dont know anything just spare the manual talk. and i am certain that most people who just stop using the forum for help are people who got the manual card a few times too meny. i think we can all agree on that.
then i apologise, my bad. i still do support the rest of my points though.

like i said earlier about the correlation between now-inactive accounts and how many of them may or may not have been due to bad attitude, we will never truly know.
maybe some people have given up on the forum for being dealt the manual card too many times, maybe they haven't. i personally don't think there have been as many as you think though.
pointing someone towards the manual ( or at least asking if they have read it ) usually prompts them to actually check the manual first if they haven't already.
the very first step of giving advice to somebody is making sure that they have the knowledge required to take your advice in any meaningful way.

if someone hasn't read the manual on surfaces, then it's a waste of time to just quote the same thing in a forum.
if someone has read the manual and it still doesn't make sense to them, it isn't a waste of time to explain it to them, because that's the a, to b, to c concept you were talking about.

we always need to make sure that the advice we're about to give isn't just going to go over someone's head because they don't understand 20% of the functions and their relationship with the rest.
if you get told to read the manual, read the manual. if you've read it, double check you didn't miss something. if you're sure you haven't missed anything, then it's perfectly reasonable to ask for an explanation.
the main thing is, the more time someone has to invest into helping someone, the more of a time-consuming hassle it can be. not only do the helpers need to be considerate, the askers do too.

the people who do know things but ask you to refer to the manual do so because they know you've missed something.
the manual doesn't exist as a scapegoat for a lack of knowledge or expertise, it exists for documentation on how things work.
if you don't know how things work, ask the manual. if you don't know why it doesn't work despite the manual, ask a person.

yes, people can be lazy when pointing you to the manual, but people can also be lazy when they don't read it.
 

Homunculus

Member
im not disregarding the manual nor do i ask for alot of help on the forum.
I wasn't referring to you specifically, but to the general point you made, just to clarify.

this is rude to just point someone to the manual, if you know somthing, say it, share. use the oppurtunity to enrich the people, if you dont know anything just spare the manual talk.
That's only true if the answer you provide can in fact be more useful and comprehensive than just looking into a specific part of the docs. If the answer is paraphrasing the manual though, just pointing to that is a perfectly fine answer as well, as long as it's done without being rude. The topic does not automatically close after that, people are free to reply and ask for clarification and have a discussion.

and i am certain that most people who just stop using the forum for help are people who got the manual card a few times too meny. i think we can all agree on that.
They are probably people who got the manual card in a rude way, or at least interpreted it that way. Is it so difficult to have a discussion with a premise like "Look [this] up in the manual and if you have questions just ask"?
 
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Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
There was an incident not too long ago where an user that repeatedly ignored moderators telling them to obey the forum rules (if I remember correctly, they repeatedly hijacked other topics to ask unrelated questions), then thinking they got hacked after some posts were moved to appropriate places, interpreting the entire thing as them being targetted by one moderator specifically and then trying to get them fired (and then decided to leave as dramatically as possible after the admins had to step in and tell them to obey the forum rules). I remember them talking (loudly) about handing in a deletion request; not sure if they ever actually did. But if that specific case is one of the three requests, I'm not sure it should count... :p
 

zendraw

Member
I wasn't referring to you specifically, but to the general point you made, just to clarify.


That's only true if the answer you provide can in fact be more useful and comprehensive than just looking into a specific part of the docs. If the answer is paraphrasing the manual though, just pointing to that is a perfectly fine answer as well, as long as it's done without being rude. The topic does not automatically close after that, people are free to reply and ask for clarification and have a discussion.


They are probably people who got the manual card in a rude way, or at least interpreted it that way. Is it so difficult to have a discussion with a premise like "Look [this] up in the manual and if you have questions just ask"?
this is a forum, its for discussion, what discussion can happen from throwing in the manual, what you say is only logical, its not very practical, not only it makes you do more work, but it closes the discussion pretty much. becopuse now that user in need of help will think, oh they gona throw me to the manual again, better just watch shaun`s videos. and to clarify, you are not here to judge how good or bad one is, and to help that person is a CHOISE not a duty, so telling me oh if hes not good programmer ur gona waste ur time, just throw this "argument" out of the window. no1 is forecing you to help, especially not to smack them in the face with the manual. communication is the fundament for making a community, not being correct or perfect or whatever.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
I find it quite unbelievable that this discussion is now onto it's SIXTH page. I mean nobodies wanting to make hard rules or take desperate action here. All that's been suggested is that people think a little before replying and when they reply they do it from a place of kindness and comprehension and not a place of judgement and arrogance.

it's not that hard to get, and you can either do it or not.

 

SSJCoder

Member
Well sure, you can. But it's a fast road to depression if you take it to heart.

Take it from a former life long 'people pleaser'. Doesn't mean I won't strive to be polite consistently. But I'm now at that point in life where if someone doesn't want pleasing, I'll cut my losses with them and move on.
Just want to point out, 'people pleasing' is a thing, but enforcing a code of conduct towards newer/inexperienced members is another. One is about your personal actions, the other is about giving people consequences who carelessly disrespect others, to prevent them from making newcomers feel unwelcome, or causing too many unnecessary arguments that only waste everyone's time and de-rail topics (this one I have seen myself plenty of times while I was still here)

Moderators are here to try to ensure people are happy, and some people who are recent purchasers of GM may be here and obviously YYG does not want them to feel unwelcome.

And yes, while some people think that simply talking to these people will help, I'm of the mindset that the moderators should be the ones talking to these people, if they think they are going too far. I'm of the mindset people of this kind need to be given harsh consequences if they continuously harass new members, and that they should receive a ban if they consistently ignore the mods and continue this behaviour.

This is just my opinion, of course, everyone has their own perspective, but I happen to be a person who is very strict against this behaviour, and to me, one single rude post would immediately get a warning.
 

vdweller

Member
When a user question is tied directly to a manual entry, in my opinion two approaches are valid:
1) If there can be a short answer to their question, provide it and then kindly point that this topic is also found in the documentation, and quote the relevant manual section. This helps reassure the person who asks that your reply doesn't come from some personal interpretation but rather from an official documentation source.

2) If a reply can be too long, possibly because of a too broad question (example:" does GM support vertex buffers?"), it is okay to just point them to the relevant manual section with a link.

In both cases, the user can come back for any subsequent questions/clarifications they need. I am not generally fond of "RTFM" replies, but when done in a proper way a reference to the manual can both erase any allegations of subjectivity and also provide guidance for further study.

I would also like to add something about the term "rookie": The dictionary definition as well as common usage shows it is a term used more about new members of a military/police force. There's a reason the lowest level soldiers in XCOM are called 'rookies' and not 'newcomers'. This is further indication that people who excessively throw this term around have this world theory that everything is a massive battlefield and that all these different people with different backgrounds, personal or health issues and mental capacity using GM for wildly different reasons, from fooling around to education to commercial use have to undergo some huge rite of passage like warriors in a tribe. It is also possible they suffer from some PTSD from their days in the Vietnam war, or their first trashing by their parents when they dared bringing an A- grade back home. It is amazing to see smart people failing so hard to put all these variables together and acknowledge all those wildly different scenarios by treating everyone like a job candidate. As I said in an earlier post, there are forums mainly oriented for professionals who seek business solutions, and a more strict approach is actually understandable, if not mandatory. But Game Maker's scope is not exclusively restricted to such a thing, it is not advertised or marketed in such a way, not is it addressed exclusively to harcdore survivor professionals. When the scope of a product is broad, your responses should also have some leeway too.

Anyways my point is that @Nocturne stop catering to special snowflakes and push your SJW librul agenda by being polite at the most basic human level we live in a clown world it is current year honk honk
 
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zendraw

Member
When a user question is tied directly to a manual entry, in my opinion two approaches are valid:
1) If there can be a short answer to their question, provide it and then kindly point that this topic is also found in the documentation, and quote the relevant manual section. This helps reassure the person who asks that your reply doesn't come from some personal interpretation but rather from an official documentation source.

2) If a reply can be too long, possibly because of a too broad question (example:" does GM support vertex buffers?"), it is okay to just point them to the relevant manual section with a link.

In both cases, the user can come back for any subsequent questions/clarifications they need. I am not generally fond of "RTFM" replies, but when done in a proper way a reference to the manual can both erase any allegations of subjectivity and also provide guidance for further study.

I would also like to add something about the term "rookie": The dictionary definition as well as common usage shows it is a term used more about new members of a military/police force. There's a reason the lowest level soldiers in XCOM are called 'rookies' and not 'newcomers'. This is further indication that people who excessively throw this term around have this world theory that everything is a massive battlefield and that all these different people with different backgrounds, personal or health issues and mental capacity using GM for wildly different reasons, from fooling around to education to commercial use have to undergo some huge rite of passage like warriors in a tribe. It is also possible they suffer from some PTSD from their days in the Vietnam war. It is amazing to see smart people failing so hard to put all these variables together and acknowledge all those wildly different scenarios by treating everyone like a job candidate. As I said in an earlier post, there are forums mainly oriented for professionals who seek business solutions, and a more strict approach is actually understandable, if not mandatory. But Game Maker's scope is not exclusively restricted to such a thing, it is not advertised or marketed in such a way, not is it addressed exclusively to harcdore survivor professionals. When the scope of a product is broad, your responses should also have some leeway too.

Anyways my point is that @Nocturne stop catering to special snowflakes and push your SJW librul agenda by being polite at the most basic human level we live in a clown world it is current year honk honk
aside from your war shenanigans, i wuld like to point out the rest, as simple as common sense and that pretty much concludes things for me.
 
I can't prove this, but my hunch is that bad attitudes come from having lost sight of why we're here in the first place. If you aren't responding to theads because you find the topic interesting, or because you think it's fun to make cool things with this tool, then what keeps you coming back? If it starts becoming about ego, that's a fast track toward petty bickering or condescending atttitudes.

There's no way I'm going to leave a rude response in a thread that I've decided to join because I found the subject to be interesting.
 

Gizmo199

Member
I have been the victim and perpetrator of this myself over the years. On one hand I see the frustration that comes with a literal 2 second google search, but on the other hand I know that even a semi complex concept that you might not understand how to even google can be disheartening when your treated like an idiot. I think there is a fine line between being hateful and stern with beginners. I think it does have benefits reinforcing "hey do google for 2 seconds and you'll find the answer" kind of attitude to simple problems (like how to shoot a bullet or the like) and helping a beginner build a habit of self research but overall I think its better practice to post links (if possible) to resources that can help them learn the concepts they want to learn. Overall there is never a call to be rude just because someone doesn't know something.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
I find it quite unbelievable that this discussion is now onto it's SIXTH page. I mean nobodies wanting to make hard rules or take desperate action here. All that's been suggested is that people think a little before replying and when they reply they do it from a place of kindness and comprehension and not a place of judgement and arrogance.

it's not that hard to get, and you can either do it or not.

Well the tyrant holds the power of the kingdom, thou shale enforce laws or debate new suggestions?

also
I mean nobodies wanting to make hard rules or take desperate action here.
Hard rule number 1.
While you shall explore the world of the yoyo forums, thou shall not be a slang term for a rooster, unless thou wish to be booted in the head.

You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of uttering the name of our Instructions, and so, as a blasphemer...
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Moderator
Coming from the guy who said he was closing the topic several pages ago. :p
Lol! Good point... I just kind of hoped some new insight could be offered by someone or something... But... I guess not.

So, yeah, I think this topic has run it's course, and all I have to say is that no one has the right to judge anyone based on their newness to the forums, or their lack of eloquence when trying to explain a problem, or their inability to grasp a concept that you may consider simple (or anything else really...). I want this to be a kind, generous and inclusive forum so I'll leave you with some final words to live by.

It's nice to be nice.

:bunny:
 
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