A word on forum attitude.

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saffeine

Member
@Nocturne I just won't be bothered to jump through loops to assist someone not willing to do his part, especially if there's this risk of being vilified for it. The responsibility should be on the person seeking assistance to, at the very least, display some amount of willingness to improve and learn instead of being willfully ignorant. You cannot seriously expect experienced users to follow these borderline social-justice guidelines without also having guidelines in place that would force newbies ("rookies" is apparently condescending) to properly conduct themselves. Nobody wants to maliciously discourage newbies from posting, but you'll very soon realize that disincentivizing experienced users from assisting them is a steep and overall counter-productive hill to tread. Newcomers that are turned off by valid criticism - good riddance - competent people actually willing to learn will quickly fill their shoes, which won't be the case for veterans who decide that helping them grow (however sternly) just isn't worth their time. This line of thought where newbies asking for help should dictate authority rather than well-versed experts is so backwards and out of touch.

TLDR; Moderating team should also curate newbie topics rather than exclusively curating feedback. Otherwise this will become the norm. (And for the love of god, instead of just lazily deleting whole posts take your time to actually remove parts which perhaps cross boundaries, you're all better than that)
can we please stop assuming that this post, and the vast majority of replies in it, are asking experienced users to do all of the work for somebody else?

even in the original post, i think my intentions were quite clear in that i wasn't saying to go above and beyond to make sure a new developer gets spoon-fed to success.
the main points that have been brought up time and time again aren't 'don't say no', they've always been 'can we learn to say no the right way'.
if you think being civil and respectful is borderline social-justice, then i really don't think there's any convincing you that we should just treat others with a degree of compassion.

i want to bring your attention to this post i made in response to frostycat's take on the misconceived idea that the blame has to be on the experienced users.
in that post i mentioned that there was a dialogue between both myself and someone who came across as though they believed they deserved more than anyone would agree with them on.
yes, there are people who expect too much. yes, there are people who are ungrateful and will undervalue even the constructive advice they're given, but those are very few.
sometimes all it takes to kindly remind them that we can't babysit them and that they need to try elsewhere, like maybe the manual. etiquette also isn't explained to you until you get used to how things work, so explain it if you must.
as for copying code, if you don't want to deal with that inevitable trainwreck, then just stay clear. nobody is forcing you to engage. at that point you're just willingly throwing yourself into the inferno and complaining when you get burned.
maybe they'll learn not to copy code on their own, maybe they won't, but in the grander scheme of things it's just another mistake to learn from if they're willing.
if they aren't willing to learn from it and actually put the time into learning how to do things properly, then they'll suffer the consequences.
the thing is, being the experienced users whether long term or otherwise, we understand how things should be and should ensure others do too before attacking them.

honestly, sometimes it feels as though people are trying to find any reason they can to justify being mean to other users and i just don't get it.
if you aren't willing to be patient and explain things that might seem obvious to more experienced users like ourselves, then maybe giving advice isn't the right thing to do.
your first reply in the link you provided was more than reasonable. you didn't go out of your way to shame the person, and i'd argue that it's a perfect example of what criticism should be like.

i don't really know if your reply was in reference to something specific that nocturne said, but as there was no quote, i'm left to just figure it out.
i'm sorry if this comes off as some kind of attack, but i really do think that people are missing the point for the sake of justifying questionable actions and behaviour. let's not do that.
 
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GMWolf

aka fel666
@Nocturne I just won't be bothered to jump through loops to assist someone not willing to do his part, especially if there's this risk of being vilified for it. The responsibility should be on the person seeking assistance to, at the very least, display some amount of willingness to improve and learn instead of being willfully ignorant. You cannot seriously expect experienced users to follow these borderline social-justice guidelines without also having guidelines in place that would force newbies ("rookies" is apparently condescending) to properly conduct themselves. Nobody wants to maliciously discourage newbies from posting, but you'll very soon realize that disincentivizing experienced users from assisting them is a steep and overall counter-productive hill to tread. Newcomers that are turned off by valid criticism - good riddance - competent people actually willing to learn will quickly fill their shoes, which won't be the case for veterans who decide that helping them grow (however sternly) just isn't worth their time. This line of thought where newbies asking for help should dictate authority rather than well-versed experts is so backwards and out of touch.

TLDR; Moderating team should also curate newbie topics rather than exclusively curating feedback. Otherwise this will become the norm. (And for the love of god, instead of just lazily deleting whole posts take your time to actually remove parts which perhaps cross boundaries, you're all better than that)
I think you are missing the point.The point is no matter how ignorant, or obnoxious you think a user may be being on the forum, its important to be kind.
 

Sabnock

Member
@Nocturne I just won't be bothered to jump through loops to assist someone not willing to do his part, especially if there's this risk of being vilified for it. The responsibility should be on the person seeking assistance to, at the very least, display some amount of willingness to improve and learn instead of being willfully ignorant. You cannot seriously expect experienced users to follow these borderline social-justice guidelines without also having guidelines in place that would force newbies ("rookies" is apparently condescending) to properly conduct themselves. Nobody wants to maliciously discourage newbies from posting, but you'll very soon realize that disincentivizing experienced users from assisting them is a steep and overall counter-productive hill to tread. Newcomers that are turned off by valid criticism - good riddance - competent people actually willing to learn will quickly fill their shoes, which won't be the case for veterans who decide that helping them grow (however sternly) just isn't worth their time. This line of thought where newbies asking for help should dictate authority rather than well-versed experts is so backwards and out of touch.

TLDR; Moderating team should also curate newbie topics rather than exclusively curating feedback. Otherwise this will become the norm. (And for the love of god, instead of just lazily deleting whole posts take your time to actually remove parts which perhaps cross boundaries, you're all better than that)
I feel you have missed the point and the target. The only thing that we are being asked to be is polite. No one is saying we have to tolerate ignorance or follow SJ guidelines. I do agree that their should be guidelines for new or inexperienced members. Maybe the site does need a beginners / basics section that has code samples of common issues that are brought up again and again. the tutorials section is a bit broad for it to be used for this imo?
 
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FoxyOfJungle

Kazan Games
One thing I would like to say is that:
Users are afraid to like or react to useful comments or projects.

The comment can be well explained and detailed, but if a person with more than 2000 likes responds, most will prefer to like the comment from the "famous" user. I'm not saying that they don't deserve likes, and not directly referring to specific people, but just generally, I think users who are trying to help also deserve recognition, because they did their best to contribute to a solution, and the like is a way of saying thanks.

This is not just limited to comments, projects are also not liked, some member of the forum here commented that he got only 30 comments in 3 years, besides few likes...

This is just my point of view.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
@Nocturne I just won't be bothered to jump through loops to assist someone not willing to do his part, especially if there's this risk of being vilified for it. The responsibility should be on the person seeking assistance to, at the very least, display some amount of willingness to improve and learn instead of being willfully ignorant.
See, this is part of the issue I have here... You are judging whether someone is being "willfully" ignorant or not. Some people aren't as clever or as capable as others. Some people have language barriers or learning disabilities, and yes, some people are just plain lazy. None of that gives you the right to be disrespectful to them though, and - as I've mentioned previously - you don't HAVE TO REPLY. You can ignore topics that you think are being "willfully ignorant". I'm sure someone will help them, or at least request they try something for themselves or read the manual, etc...


You cannot seriously expect experienced users to follow these borderline social-justice guidelines without also having guidelines in place that would force newbies ("rookies" is apparently condescending) to properly conduct themselves.
Lol! So, requesting common human decency, kindness and respect for all is being an SJW??? And yes, "rookie" used in the way it has been used here is condescending, as are words like "noob" or "newbie", etc... It's unnecessary and also a judgment that assumes a lot of things, none of which may be true. Because a user has an issue that you see as something simple or can't express their issue in a way you find acceptable, doesn't mean they are a "rookie". We all have brain-farts sometimes when the simplest of things escapes us, and not all of us are literary geniuses. Also note that nobody has suggested a set of "social-justice guidelines" other than the ones we have already.
  • Be friendly and helpful! We all started off as beginners.

Nobody wants to maliciously discourage newbies from posting, but you'll very soon realize that disincentivizing experienced users from assisting them is a steep and overall counter-productive hill to tread. Newcomers that are turned off by valid criticism - good riddance - competent people actually willing to learn will quickly fill their shoes, which won't be the case for veterans who decide that helping them grow (however sternly) just isn't worth their time. This line of thought where newbies asking for help should dictate authority rather than well-versed experts is so backwards and out of touch.
No ones disincentivise anything. If you are put off by being asked to be considerate and kind, then maybe I should say "good riddance" to you, tbh! :) I mean, not everyone is taught logic, not everyone is taught to deal with criticism, not everyone is taught how to express themselves adequately, and I don't think it's too much to ask to take these things into consideration before posting. If you are so confident in your knowledge then you should be happy to nurture and teach, not criticise and blow people off with a "good-riddance". And I'm sorry, but there are PLENTY of "veterans" here who are incredibly patient and helpful and they haven't gone anywhere (a lot have posted in this topic)... and they are the ones fomenting the next set of veterans to do the same. Behaviours are learned too, and these "newbies" you talk about are learning from the best, and will fill their shoes admirably since they've been taught with patience and kindness.... they'll then teach with patience and kindness too when they are "veterans".


TLDR; Moderating team should also curate newbie topics rather than exclusively curating feedback. Otherwise this will become the norm. (And for the love of god, instead of just lazily deleting whole posts take your time to actually remove parts which perhaps cross boundaries, you're all better than that)
We don't "curate" new posts or posts from regular members. We respond to reports and then deal with them based on our shared experience on the forums, or we deal with things that we happen to see in our daily dealings with members on the forum. Asking us to curate EVERY POST made to see if it fits some arbitrary standard for "due diligence" is pretty much impossible, and (sorry, but I have to say this) even worse than being "SJW"! That's borderline fascism, and while I AM the tyrant around here ( :p ), I do try to give people as much free-reign as possible to be themselves. I am NOT going to police everyone's posts, and I don't think it would be good for the forum in any way if we did. Also, it's not "lazy" to remove a full post if it is unhelpful, irrelevant or disrespectful, and I'd thank you to have little more appreciation for the very hard working mod team we have here... If we went about editing every post that was reported or that didn't fit the guidlines we'd never get any work done.


I feel you have missed the point and the target. the only thing that we are being asked to be is polite. No one is saying we have to tolerate ignorance or follow SJ guidelines. I do agree that their should be guidelines for new or inexperienced members. Maybe the site does need a beginners / basics section that has code samples of common issues that are brought up again and again. the tutorials section is a bit broad for it to be used for this imo?
We already have such a post: https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/programming-forum-guidelines.27723/

However, we can't force people to use it. That said, the same as new users have to see the message about spam prevention for their first 5 posts, I could make a sticky notice that recommends they read the guidelines before posting too... In fact, I think I will! :)
 
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EvanSki

King of Raccoons
You cannot seriously expect experienced users to follow these borderline social-justice guidelines without also having guidelines in place that would force newbies ("rookies" is apparently condescending) to properly conduct themselves.
I do agree that their should be guidelines for new or inexperienced members.
I'd just like to point out.

Not to mention

https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/community-guidelines.4/

To quote him, himself
I would suggest that you READ the forum rules then...
 

MissingNo.

Member
Users are afraid to like or react to useful comments or projects.
Yeah I agree, personally when I receive help I know there isn't much I can give back. So at the very least I can give them a positive attitude and leave a like if someone is helpful or is at least trying to help.

I would also like to point out, while there is guidelines in there for BOTH askers and responders, most of the guidelines in there apply to ASKERS.
So for those clamoring in this topic for guidelines for askers there is already plenty of expectations listed in the link Nocturne has provided.

can we please stop assuming that this post, and the vast majority of replies in it, are asking experienced users to do all of the work for somebody else?
Yeah the constant assumptions in this thread are amazing. We have made it very clear that we do not advocate spoon feeding and that we expect users to apply themselves.
But what we want is for everyone (Including askers) to leave their attitude and elitism at the door. And to give people a fair shake regardless how dumb the question is. How many more times do we have to repeat this?

Now all that being said I want to make it clear that I think the vast majority of responders are pretty great.
Special shoutouts:

@RefresherTowel @flyingsaucerinvasion @kburkhart84 @GMWolf @Samuel Venable @TsukaYuriko @Sabnock, and many others.

I have personally received help from some of these individuals before and I give them my great thanks. Overall I think we have a great batch of responders.
 

zendraw

Member
other then people contemplating about kindness and rudeness, what use does this topic have anymore? no1 that really wants to dev is discouraged from rudeness or such nonsense. i mean i want you all veterans to think for a moment, when you were beginners wuld you care that someone was rude to you when you asked a question?
irl, i havent stoped being intrested or doing stuff i want just becouse someone is rude to me.

people who want to learn to dev will do so, the rest who get discouraged by criticism seek safe space or somthing and will find it elsewhere, they dont really care about programming. or shuld i say game dev. and i dont see why are the mods so defencive about them since they are only causing drama. caring so much about the safe space of over sensitive people who get offended by anything, you dont realise how there is no more space for the rest, people who have to constantly think now is this going to offend or not.
this "rookie" is a perfect example, like are you serious? you cant tell someone he is a rookie? or a newbie or somthing? this is fascist order. and its not just here its everywhere.
 

saffeine

Member
other then people contemplating about kindness and rudeness, what use does this topic have anymore? no1 that really wants to dev is discouraged from rudeness or such nonsense. i mean i want you all veterans to think for a moment, when you were beginners wuld you care that someone was rude to you when you asked a question?
irl, i havent stoped being intrested or doing stuff i want just becouse someone is rude to me.

people who want to learn to dev will do so, the rest who get discouraged by criticism seek safe space or somthing and will find it elsewhere, they dont really care about programming. or shuld i say game dev. and i dont see why are the mods so defencive about them since they are only causing drama. caring so much about the safe space of over sensitive people who get offended by anything, you dont realise how there is no more space for the rest, people who have to constantly think now is this going to offend or not.
this "rookie" is a perfect example, like are you serious? you cant tell someone he is a rookie? or a newbie or somthing? this is fascist order. and its not just here its everywhere.
to answer your question: yes, absolutely.

i know it might seem trivial to care about what a random person says to you over the internet, and to let it bother you to the point where it destroys your passion, but sometimes that's what it does.
when i was in my early teens more specifically, i cared a lot more about what people had to say to / about me. even if i didn't, someone being mean to me for a 'stupid question' would definitely have put me off ever asking again.
the inevitable effect that would have if that turned out to be the case is that i would never ask the important questions that led me to being able to act on that interest.
there are definitely a lot of people out there who aren't bothered by it, and all the more power to them, it's nice to not be concerned by it. that doesn't mean everyone can deal with it though.
your profile says that you're 29 as of right now, so i think it's important to point out that the mental difference between you and someone much younger with a naive expectation of the internet is huge.
you and i have had time to mature, and can deal with the criticism a bit better. younger people, or those with disabilities that may hold them back could be left with a much deeper cut than us, and decide it isn't worth it.

gamemaker has always been marketed as a powerful tool that allows anyone to create a game, and we need to remember that when we offer our advice.
people of all ages and backgrounds decide that gamemaker is what they want to pursue, even if only temporarily. you have children investing their time into this software.
we're not talking about a community that consists solely of ( and i don't mean to sound insensitive in any way here ) able-minded adults. we're talking about a community of people to which an 'easy program' appeals to.
take it as you will, but considering how easy it is to get into gamemaker, regardless of skill level and prior knowledge of a language, i don't think any of us have a right to wave an elitist banner over the heads of others.

and to address your concerns about whether or not we're walking through a minefield of sensitive people, we're not.
nobody is asking you to stoop to a level any lower than that of common courtesy. i myself advocate for safer spaces, but i've seen the extremes that others go to for the same thing and i disagree with it.
this isn't about silencing people, and it isn't about making sure that anybody gets special treatment. this isn't about dumbing yourself down for the often referred to "sensitive snowflakes" to be happy, it's about having a shred of decency.
there is, and always will be space for everyone. we all need to share that space. please stop acting as though we're kicking you out of the community, we're simply asking that you don't kick others out of it in an act of selfishness.

lastly, this is the use the topic still has. discussion and perspective.
a moderator could lock it if they really wanted to, most of us have said our bit.
it really shouldn't bother you if it's active or not, you could choose to ignore it.
 
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GMWolf

aka fel666
other then people contemplating about kindness and rudeness, what use does this topic have anymore? no1 that really wants to dev is discouraged from rudeness or such nonsense. i mean i want you all veterans to think for a moment, when you were beginners wuld you care that someone was rude to you when you asked a question?
irl, i havent stoped being intrested or doing stuff i want just becouse someone is rude to me.
that doesn't make it ok to be rude. I mean, how is it hard to understand. Being rude, offensive and mean, those are all negative words!
I really fail to understand how that can be such a difficult concept to grasp.

people who want to learn to dev will do so, the rest who get discouraged by criticism seek safe space or somthing and will find it elsewhere, they dont really care about programming. or shuld i say game dev
seeking a place to learn and discuss programming, whilst not being insulted or otherwise attacked is perfectly reasonable.
This is a community. It's not just a place for people to get straight answers. its a place for people to support each other and have a good time.
After all, arent we all here to share out passsion for programming? Woudlnt you want this to be a welcoming community ?

caring so much about the safe space of over sensitive people who get offended by anything, you dont realise how there is no more space for the rest, people who have to constantly think now is this going to offend or not.
Honestly I would prefer it if this community didnt include people who found it that difficult not to be hateful or otherwise harmful towards others.

this "rookie" is a perfect example, like are you serious? you cant tell someone he is a rookie?
No one said you couldnt use the word rokkie. it was just pointed out that it was, if not inaccurate, quite condescending. But I doubt anyone will stop you from using that word.

and its not just here its everywhere.
If its everywhere, you have got to wonder who here is out of touch, the world, or yourself.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons


Amateur.



Call them (being posters/ or "rookies") Amateurs.
An amateur is generally considered a person who pursues a particular activity or field of study independently from their source of income. Amateurs and their pursuits are also described as popular, informal, self-taught, user-generated, DIY, and hobbyist. A word that means, very literally, to do something for the love of it.
 

saffeine

Member
not to push this further off-topic in favour of discussing the way 'rookie' is being used, but as a word it isn't condescending in the slightest, and i don't understand where people are getting that from.
nocturne explicitly said that the way it's being used is condescending, such as 'noob' and 'newbie', given that they've been used relentlessly to kick people down for their actual rookie mistakes.

reading comprehension? i don't know her.

terminology aside though, let's not stray further from the topic here, i just felt the need to clarify since people are still misinterpreting nocturne's words as him claiming that 'rookie' is inherently offensive.
there's a time and a place for the words, and that time and place shouldn't be an excuse to condescend others. a rookie is just someone new, let's not forget that going forward.

side note: amateur is also appropriate, but even a veteran can be an amateur. distinction is sometimes important.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
not to push this further off-topic in favour of discussing the way 'rookie' is being used, but as a word it isn't condescending in the slightest, and i don't understand where people are getting that from.
nocturne explicitly said that the way it's being used is condescending, such as 'noob' and 'newbie', given that they've been used relentlessly to kick people down for their actual rookie mistakes.

reading comprehension? i don't know her.

terminology aside though, let's not stray further from the topic here, i just felt the need to clarify since people are still misinterpreting nocturne's words as him claiming that 'rookie' is inherently offensive.
there's a time and a place for the words, and that time and place shouldn't be an excuse to condescend others. a rookie is just someone new, let's not forget that going forward.

side note: amateur is also appropriate, but even a veteran can be an amateur. distinction is sometimes important.
Im just tired of reading the word lol
 

zendraw

Member
this is what im talking about, whats the problem of being rude? and lets not act as if everyone is kind just becouse you dont say "rude" words. leaving someone hanging is also rude, shoving in your agenda in is also rude. and you all do that. you censor words, but you are not trying to be better people in the sense of seeking resolution and not be passive agressive. every time i criticise theres aways passive agresiveness. and it is very obvious. i talk about somthing, you take few words that suit you and you make a counter attack villainising me in the process. i can guarante the next post quoting me and explaining me how wrong i am will be exactly that.
 

zendraw

Member
It's lazy, unnecessary, and leaves a bad impression of the person being rude and the forum on new members.

(and not a passive aggressive comment in sight! :))
you are categorising, disregarding that everything sayd is per situation and not in general. orange is not orange. but i can agree with what you are sayng, gmwolfs last post was lazy, unnecessary, led to nowhere, and left a bad impressionof being rude.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
you are categorising, disregarding that everything sayd is per situation and not in general. orange is not orange. but i can agree with what you are sayng, gmwolfs last post was lazy, unnecessary, led to nowhere, and left a bad impressionof being rude.
Do you read what you say before you post it? Or do you really think your not being the rude one right now?

Edit: i'm not being rude or passive aggressive, i'm genuinely asking you a question.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I don't actually see any issue with GMWolf's post. He is making the very obvious point that anyone who can say they don't see what's wrong with being rude, is obviously not going to either change or possibly even understand the issue being discussed (which is fine, I don't understand people that don't want national health care, for example), thus we are at an impasse. I don't see how that was rude in any way...
 

saffeine

Member
you are categorising, disregarding that everything sayd is per situation and not in general. orange is not orange. but i can agree with what you are sayng, gmwolfs last post was lazy, unnecessary, led to nowhere, and left a bad impressionof being rude.
i appreciate the fact that you've identified that negative attitude in yourself and remain conscious of it even now.
for whatever it might be worth, i can't speak for everyone, but you're definitely not somebody that popped up on my radar of 'regular offenders', not that i've been digging extensively of course.
furthermore, if there's been a back and forth exchange for a few posts, i can't fault you for eventually running out of patience. it's not something i wanted to mention in the original post, but it does happen.
here's that 'per situation' you're searching for. we've addressed it. every new encounter starts off neutral, and unfortunately this suffered the foreseen.
i also think i made a point elsewhere about how people should take a moment to 'reset' before moving to the next person, because it's as you said, per situation.

being rude should never be the default, i don't know how much more we can shave off the point to try and make it clear.
 
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zendraw

Member
I don't actually see any issue with GMWolf's post. He is making the very obvious point that anyone who can say they don't see what's wrong with being rude, is obviously not going to either change or possibly even understand the issue being discussed (which is fine, I don't understand people that don't want national health care, for example), thus we are at an impasse. I don't see how that was rude in any way...
and this is whats wrong with his post, same as yours. your sayng that just becouse i sayd whatever, im this and that and unable and generally calling me an idiot or something, but in kind and polite manner, and this is the same as if how the op asks "why cant people be kind?" and i say "cus your **** and ****" and so on. im not rude for asking the black sheep question here, you are rude for denying any discussion about it. and not only denying, if you say we will not discuss this, i can say ok, but sayng that a discussion cant happen with me or anyone just becouse we ask that question, thats rude.

and the black sheep must be put out in the open becouse people are just talking generally and throwing the rude word cheaply without thinking for a sec what theyr talking about. same as easily offended people, if they take a moment and be aware that theyr alone in theyr room, maybe do some stretches, then they wuld probably laugh at the "rude" people online.

to clarify what counts as being rude, you are rude when you are denying a person, comments in this topic come from persons, if you swear to a rock or tell it we cant discuss this becouse you are stupid, thats not rude. well it probably is but thats too deep zen for this topic.
 

saffeine

Member
I am wondering if this topic has served its purpose and run its full due course.
time for A word on forum attitude Pt 2, i guess 😔
i jest, but it does seem awfully ironic that we ended up here given the tone of the original post, don't you think?
 

Sybok

Member
All I was thinking was that if people can't be guided and influenced to reconsider their (not excluding myself here) ways in four pages, they aren't going to.
 

Fanatrick

Member
Nocturne said:
See, this is part of the issue I have here... You are judging whether someone is being "willfully" ignorant or not. Some people aren't as clever or as capable as others. Some people have language barriers or learning disabilities, and yes, some people are just plain lazy. None of that gives you the right to be disrespectful to them though, and - as I've mentioned previously - you don't HAVE TO REPLY. You can ignore topics that you think are being "willfully ignorant". I'm sure someone will help them, or at least request they try something for themselves or read the manual, etc...
Nobody is jumping the gun and being instantly (and maliciously) disrespectful, but when you invest hours pointing someone in the right direction only to realize you've been lead on by someone who just wants you to do everything for them, it's only human to get frustrated. You're much more likely to find rookies being insufferable looking for easy ways out than veterans being disrespectful on the get go, moderating these boards you should be the first person to realize this.

Nocturne said:
Lol! So, requesting common human decency, kindness and respect for all is being an SJW??? And yes, "rookie" used in the way it has been used here is condescending, as are words like "noob" or "newbie", etc... It's unnecessary and also a judgment that assumes a lot of things, none of which may be true. Because a user has an issue that you see as something simple or can't express their issue in a way you find acceptable, doesn't mean they are a "rookie". We all have brain-farts sometimes when the simplest of things escapes us, and not all of us are literary geniuses. Also note that nobody has suggested a set of "social-justice guidelines" other than the ones we have already.
Not at all, you're acting like an SJW for entirely different reasons. Common human decency and respect is a given (and should go both ways), nobody has a problem with that and I challenge you to show me where was it ever compromised to the level and spread you're claiming (or if it happens in the future). In no way should a word rookie be taken as condescending in circumstances where people have been using it here, its de facto definition is "a person who is new to an organization or an activity", but I agree, we all have brain-farts sometimes :)

Nocturne said:
No ones disincentivise anything. If you are put off by being asked to be considerate and kind, then maybe I should say "good riddance" to you, tbh!
Even on a good day this logic is flawed and out of context. You do realize you just vilified one of the more well-known and respected members of the community few pages back for using a word "rookie" in a totally acceptable and truthful context. If you think that won't disincentivize him/her and other veterans from even bothering in the future I don't know what to tell you...

Nocturne said:
We don't "curate" new posts or posts from regular members. We respond to reports and then deal with them based on our shared experience on the forums, or we deal with things that we happen to see in our daily dealings with members on the forum. Asking us to curate EVERY POST made to see if it fits some arbitrary standard for "due dilligence" is pretty much impossible, and (sorry, but I have to say this) even worse than being "SJW"! That's borderline fascism, and while I AM the tyrant around here :)P), I do try to give people as much free-reign as possible to be themselves. I am NOT going to police everyone's posts, and I don't think it would be good for the forum in any way if we did. Also, it's not "lazy" to remove a full post if it is unhelpful, irrelevant or disrespectful, and I'd thank you to have little more appreciation for the very hard working mod team we have here... If we went about editing every post that was reported or that didn't fit the guidlines we'd never get any work done.
Nobody is asking you to curate every post, but rather if you're going to hand out wrist-slaps to experts going out of their way to help otherwise helpless rookies (some of who, by the way, don't put any effort whatsoever in helping themselves and much less do they reply in a respectable manner) find their way maybe you should reconsider the strategy. It's a friendly suggestion which you can take with a grain of salt and I would appreciate if you don't reply with another litany about points I didn't even make.

Nocturne said:
However, we can't force people to use it. That said, the same as new users have to see the message about spam prevention for their first 5 posts, I could make a sticky notice that recommends they read the guidelines before posting too... In fact, I think I will! :)
Good thinking, my job here is done :)
 

zendraw

Member
a nice way of sayng forced to be this and that becouse i cant deal with anything. this is not healthy. really the kindness here is just masked rudeness. which makes for a nice game idea tbh. "The Gray Maker Masquerade" where a guy named Yoyo is the villain. the premise of the game being in a village or some place where weaklings are driven off, but woe and behold, one old outlaw has found a cunning way to retailate, by making masks of nice animals which infact turn the weak folk in such animals and so they can enter the village and as a revenge do misdeeds while avoiding attention with theyr kindness. who wuld suspect that a nice dog wuld murder a child with a knife? and your task as the player is to discover which animals are actually from the masquerade and which not, if you kill one that is really just an animal. its game over.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
@zendraw : You seem to be taking this all very personally, when I can assure you there is nothing personal against you here. No one has named you as a perpetrator of being rude or unkind to new members, so I really don't understand where this attitude is coming from. I haven't called you rude and most certainly haven't called you an idiot (nor do I consider you one)... I merely explained what I assumed as the reasoning behind the post that @GMWolf made (and maybe I'm wrong in that assumption!). I'm truly sorry that you feel attacked by this, but I can't in all honesty understand your position, nor this reaction. I don't think "there is nothing wrong with being rude". It is fundamentally opposed to everything I believe... don't get me wrong, I'm not blind and know that sometimes there is a necessity to be rude, but this topic is only about that time NOT being when a person asks a question that you (not personally, you as in "anyone that answers") think is silly, pointless, poorly thought out, lazy, etc...

a nice way of sayng forced to be this and that becouse i cant deal with anything. this is not healthy. really the kindness here is just masked rudeness.
Sorry, but no. I do not wear a "mask" and what you see is what you get. You are projecting here, and this is again exactly my point. People are projecting onto a post what they perceive as laziness (for example) when it could be a lot of other things (again, like I've mentioned, language, ignorance, disability, etc...). I just don't see the issue with TRYING to be nice to people, regardless. If they don't respond - or respond by being rude themselves or asking for a script instead of making one from the knowledge you've given, etc... - then you give no further replies to that topic and that's it. Or politely inform them that you aren't going to do as they request because there are better ways to learn. I've done this myself many a time!

Even on a good day this logic is flawed and out of context.
Yeah, sorry about that... my lame attempt at humour... :(

Nobody is asking you to curate every post, but rather if you're going to hand out wrist-slaps to experts going out of their way to help otherwise helpless rookies (some of who, by the way, don't put any effort whatsoever in helping themselves and much less do they reply in a respectable manner) find their way maybe you should reconsider the strategy.
Ah, but I do do this! For example: https://forum.yoyogames.com/index.php?threads/question-concerning-id.75033/#post-443169 I'm not requesting that anybody do anything I don't do myself.

and I challenge you to show me where was it ever compromised to the level and spread you're claiming
I have not claimed it's happening to any great extent! In fact, I started posting in this topic by saying it's hardly an issue in my mind, and only a very few users are culpable of it. I also provided what I would consider a perfect example of the issue in another post. So, no, it's NOT a major issue, but I have seen at least three members in the last 6 months ask for their accounts to be deleted because of a post from a senior member that basically attacked them and insulted their intelligence (and I get a couple of reports a month about the issue too). THAT is what I don't like and is the only issue I am discussing here. I don't want people to come to this forum and the first thing they are met with is a rude, condescending, aggressive and insulting reply, when all they want to do is make games, just like the rest of us!
 
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EvanSki

King of Raccoons
and this is whats wrong with his post, same as yours. your sayng that just becouse i sayd whatever, im this and that and unable and generally calling me an idiot or something,
Who called you an idiot?

but in kind and polite manner,
No I dont think you can point the figure at someone saying they are calling you stupid in a polite manner

and this is the same as if how the op asks "why cant people be kind?" and i say "cus your **** and ****" and so on.
mhm

im not rude for asking the black sheep question here, you are rude for denying any discussion about it.
Whos denying the discussion? I think were discussing it right now actually.

and not only denying, if you say we will not discuss this,
again whos saying no one can discuss this?

i can say ok,
ok.

but sayng that a discussion cant happen with me or anyone just becouse we ask that question, thats rude.
That is rude, but who said a discussion cant happen?

and the black sheep must be put out in the open becouse people are just talking generally and throwing the rude word cheaply without thinking for a sec what theyr talking about.
same as easily offended people,
I ask you to read that to yourself, then reread what you've said as a whole.

if they take a moment and be aware that theyr alone in theyr room, maybe do some stretches, then they wuld probably laugh at the "rude" people online.
What?

to clarify what counts as being rude, you are rude when you are denying a person, comments in this topic come from persons,
again whos denying you from commenting?

if you swear to a rock or tell it we cant discuss this becouse you are stupid, thats not rude.
I think I get this one, the rock in this sense is a person, swearing at it and calling it stupid in anyway is rude, like youve stated previously.

well it probably is but thats too deep zen for this topic.
and you've lost me again.

What you're saying counteracts itself, I feel like if you took a second maybe even take your advice of
be aware that theyr alone in theyr room, maybe do some stretches
You'd understand better what being rude is.
To clarify it, its impolite language or behavior.
right now, your comments about
whats the problem of being rude?
are pretty rude. ( to me at the least. I feel that you are being rude with what you are saying and feel there are better more calm ways to say them)
for all purposes, you can discuss why you feel certain things are not rude or certain things are rude. but not while your being rude.
Its kinda like Smoky the Bear being an arsonist.
 

MissingNo.

Member
You do realize you just vilified one of the more well-known and respected members of the community few pages back for using a word "rookie" in a totally acceptable and truthful context.
I would love to see the post where he "vilified" a member for using the word rookie. I seem to recall a polite disagreement. Is disagreement now vilification? Whos the SJW now?

In no way should a word rookie be taken as condescending in circumstances where people have been using it here, its de facto definition is "a person who is new to an organization or an activity"
It's not the definition, it's the negative connotations associated with the word. What is so hard to understand about that?
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
I feel like this topic has gone from discussion about behaviors and now into who said what,



i'll jump back in if theres meaningful discussion that I can share my thoughts on
but Im not going to sit here and point fingers like "but they said and they said"
and I feel like I've already done that with @zendraw, and to Zendraw I apologize if i'm coming off as rude in this topic, I only wish to share how I feel towards the subjects at hand.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Yeah, I have to agree with @EvanSki on this one... @zendraw and @Fanatrick : you both have my greatest respect and if I have replied quoting your posts, it is simply to present a counter argument to some of the points raised that I felt were important to the discussion as a whole, and it is by no means intended as a personal attack or anything of the such.

That said, I think we've pretty much reached the end of the discussion here, but I'm not going to close the topic just yet in case anyone wants to make any final general points...
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
in case anyone wants to make any final general points...
At the end of the day, I see the GMC as a family,
and the best families can have heated debates, even arguments, but if even after all those words, we can still share the stuff we make and enjoy each others works or status update memes and help each other, well that's great.
 

Fanatrick

Member
I would love to see the post where he "vilified" a member for using the word rookie. I seem to recall a polite disagreement. Is disagreement now vilification? Whos the SJW now?
English is not my first language and now I'm offended :(... You didn't take that into account, did you? See how this is a slippery slope?

It's not the definition, it's the negative connotations associated with the word. What is so hard to understand about that?
Imagine being this fragile... Out of curiosity, what would be a better word to use? The whole point I'm arguing is you cannot, in a viable effective manner, know what the other person subjectively is going to take offense in. I do not see how am I responsible for your lack of confidence or self-esteem.
 

zendraw

Member
i didnt say i take this personally. im just openly discussing these things. the overkill kindness its overkill, why cant this be sayd in a calm way? it IS sayd in a calm way. and again this is what im talking about, i am opening up aspects of this topic no1 cares to talk about, how "kind" people shift and turn to censor and move the attention away from every aspect of the topic. you cant just say your either kind or rude, you can be kindly rude, and rudly kind. and it shuld be pointed out. as i have done. and again, why is the topic being closed now? evan what is not meaningful about this? maybe you have nothing to say? that is fine aswell just dont blame me if you cant add anything and fragment the subject for a better perspective. the better perspective being vigilance and growth, not kindness, kindness is a bonus of a strong character, not nice words.
 

zendraw

Member
dont shift what i say towards my presonality, there is nothing personal. i dont express, nor do i see how one can express his personality in some text on the internet, im sayn htis mainly to evanski. what i say is a subject for discussion. and i mainly question extreme standpoints like rudeness is bad no matter what. rudeness is a good tool to fend off passive agressive people, like what fanatrick talks about.

kind is not good, did you know that vaccines are basicly injections of dosages of the virus the vaccine is for? so your body can create antibodies or somthing like that? viruses are bad, so what now?
 

MissingNo.

Member
English is not my first language and now I'm offended :(... You didn't take that into account, did you? See how this is a slippery slope?
No, I don't. If that was the case and the word was used improperly on accident then I would apologize. And then everything would be fine.

Anyways nice dodge, you got called out for making a baseless accusation against Nocturne and you won't acknowledge my response because you know you are in the wrong there.

Out of curiosity, what would be a better word to use?
The better question to ask is where is it ever necessary to call someone a rookie if they are being polite to you? But if I had to choose a different label I would choose "Beginner"
but in the majority of cases I don't think there would be a reason to even need to point it out. Most beginners are well aware they are beginners and it doesn't need to be pointed out.

And just as a disclaimer to everyone. I'm not advocating for the word rookie to never be used ever but I see no reason to call someone that in the programming forum unless the asker is getting up on their high horse.
If the asker is becoming rude I say feel free to knock them down a peg.
 

Fanatrick

Member
No, I don't. If that was the case and the word was used improperly on accident then I would apologize. And then everything would be fine.

Anyways nice dodge, you got called out for making a baseless accusation against Nocturne and you won't acknowledge my response because you know you are in the wrong there.
But it WAS used on accident and it's truly not my first language. Now that I'm more familiar with it - it does seem on the stronger side of the spectrum, but you kind of proved my exact point by being an ass about it which is the exact thing you've been brigading against in the first place. Both sweet and ironic.
 

Sybok

Member
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MissingNo.

Member
But it WAS used on accident and it's truly not my first language. Now that I'm more familiar with it - it does seem on the stronger side of the spectrum, but you kind of proved my exact point by being an ass about it which is the exact thing you've been brigading against in the first place. Both sweet and ironic.
Oh Really? Sorry I thought you were just making a point. I apologize for making a baseless accusation against you and assuming what you were trying to say.
Not being sarcastic either, I am truly sorry. That is one reason I don't tend to make fun of peoples grammar because of cases like this.

Well as far as the rookie stuff let's just agree to disagree.
 

zendraw

Member
No, I don't. If that was the case and the word was used improperly on accident then I would apologize. And then everything would be fine.

Anyways nice dodge, you got called out for making a baseless accusation against Nocturne and you won't acknowledge my response because you know you are in the wrong there.


The better question to ask is where is it ever necessary to call someone a rookie if they are being polite to you? But if I had to choose a different label I would choose "Beginner"
but in the majority of cases I don't think there would be a reason to even need to point it out. Most beginners are well aware they are beginners and it doesn't need to be pointed out.

And just as a disclaimer to everyone. I'm not advocating for the word rookie to never be used ever but I see no reason to call someone that in the programming forum unless the asker is getting up on their high horse.
If the asker is becoming rude I say feel free to knock them down a peg.
rookie is in a sense classification, so it shuld be fine to call someone a rookie, like people who know what place_meeting does and what x and y are. they arent beginners but theyr still on the bottom tier. a rank system is good to have in a forum in which theres a Collaboration subforum.
 

zendraw

Member
i want to take the oppurtunity and say what i see as truly bad without question, that is violence. and violence is when one`s freedom is subtracted for the sake of someone else`s. that is not acceptable. now im not sayng this in regard to anyone here, its just an imput, maybe for contrast for another perspective on rudeness and kindness.

and there is a clear distingtion. im sure everyone will actually feel discomfort irl if i tell a story of actual violence. which is not the case if i just tell someone to go ********* etc. you wont feel anything nor get affected in anyway nor will you remember it in the morning. but violence...
 

Sybok

Member
Note to self - "I shouldn't have cleared out my 'Ignore' list this morning." 🤣

The biggest mistake I tend to make when joining a new forum is thinking of everyone as my friend and I'll treat them as such.

Sounds ok at first glance, right?

But the problem with this is, I'll address them in a way as if they were a long time friend.

So when you read a post from me saying "What did the manual say?" It can be taken two ways.

Friendly - "Hey my best friend of twenty years, pick up the manual and find out yourself, you goose".
Arrogant - "You are not worthy of my answer. Now get lost and come back when you educate yourself".

I assure you. My posts are intended to be the former. But if I put in fifteen emojis, that can come across condenseding also. So it's a no win situation.

The only option I am left with is to answer in a sterile and robotic manner, while rocking in the foetal position in the corner, whispering "These aren't my friends, these aren't my friends".

Although, looking at my 'reaction score'. I'm sitting on a 1:1 post/like ratio. So I can't be that badly received around here.
 
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Toque

Member
This is turned into a meme.

Tomorrow I will go to work and have a team meeting. "Should we at least try and be nice to new people or rude?" Raise your hands........

All my belongings would be neatly placed in a box at the front door before the meeting was over.
 
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