A word on forum attitude.

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saffeine

Member
i want to preface this post firstly with a disclaimer: this is not meant to target an individual, group of individuals, or a specific corner of the community. if you feel like this is targeted at you, then please consider why you believe that to be the case. likewise, if you feel as though this is targeted towards somebody else and a name comes to mind, please keep it to yourself. i don't wish to stir up drama so much as i just want to address an issue that i've noticed across several threads. with that out of the way, here are the thoughts i want to spew.

i feel as though members of the community are developing some real nasty attitudes towards others, and it's disheartening to see. this is more so in regards to the 'please help' threads. new gamemaker users are barely given a palpable response unless it's laced with bigotry, elitism, needless criticism, or just some other form of response that serves as anything but an answer to their questions. this is just one example of bad attitude, with another being conversation between members on various other threads whether it's on topic or not.

i get it, i really do. time is precious, we don't want to spend it on helping someone, or bickering with somebody else, but it isn't a warrant for condescension.
i've seen users ask questions like 'is x possible in gamemaker', or 'how can i do y in gamemaker', and in fairness a hefty amount of answers are quite helpful.
on the other hand, i've seen responses that boil down to 'no. you aren't ready.' with no actual basis to the claim other than the fact that the way they type doesn't meet someone else's standards, or that they haven't yet figured out how to do one thing, so tackling another thing is already a lost cause until they become 'a better programmer'.
i can understand that inexperienced users shouldn't be trying to sprint before they can crawl, but why must we give them a hard 'no.' without a pointer in the right direction?

i've been using gamemaker since i was somewhere around the age of 11, and i understood barely anything about programming.
occasionally i would come to the forums ( on an older account, long since lost ) and appeal for help, to which i would get either somebody putting the time into doing the work for me, or at the very least telling me where to go.
don't get me wrong, i don't think any experienced programmer should be doing someone else's work for them. you don't learn by copy + pasting a script that someone else spoon fed to you on the forums, but some actual help wouldn't go amiss.
if i came to these forums as they currently are at the age of 11 and was criticised on my harmless mannerisms by somebody with no interest in actually helping me, i don't think i would have ever pursued game development as a hobby.
even now, i type in all lowercase because it's just something i prefer to do, but that isn't something that should be detracting from my value as a wannabe developer, nor should any lack of experience in the field.

if somebody is asking for help, then make a choice. help them, or don't help them.
if you aren't willing to sink the time into holding somebody's hand for a few posts, then don't engage.
if you are willing to sink the time into holding somebody's hand for a while, then try to be clear with them. tell them where they're going wrong, show them the correct practice, be constructive.
if somebody is clearly not ready to tackle something they're asking about, let them know, but additionally tell them where they should start, and where they need to be before trying again.
you don't have to write somebody else's code to be a respectable human being, just don't be condescending, and don't play all high and mighty just because you can.

i'm not going to sit here and beg for people to change the way they speak to each other. after all, i'm just some random person on the internet with no credibility.
this isn't my place to say what people should or shouldn't do. everyone has their free will, they can do with it what they please.
all i hope is that maybe we can all reflect on where we are as a community, and strive to cultivate something far more pleasant than what i currently see in it.

if anyone has any further input, then i'm all ears. but again, please don't name any names, or use this point to attack anybody else.

oh, and mods, if this thread is in the wrong place or somehow breaks the guidelines of which i couldn't find a broken rule in, then by all means send it to the grave.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
I think its the mentality of people assuming others "feelings"(?) through text, a post asking for help can very well come off as "please do X for me kthxbye" and that's obviously annoying.
I do see a few members being unnecessarily crucial over members and there topics. I think the issue is trying to get everyone to help everyone they want to help in a friendly way that doesn't come off as aggressive.
Theres only so much text can give of the mood/intention of the poster.
 

saffeine

Member
I think its the mentality of people assuming others "feelings"(?) through text, a post asking for help can very well come off as "please do X for me kthxbye" and that's obviously annoying.
I do see a few members being unnecessarily crucial over members and there topics. I think the issue is trying to get everyone to help everyone they want to help in a friendly way that doesn't come off as aggressive.
Theres only so much text can give of the mood/intention of the poster.
i totally understand what you mean and that's definitely a problem, although i've seen people with awful attitudes over a much more minor thing.
i remember a few days ago i saw a post asking if it was possible to make a multiplayer 3d game, or a 3d mmorpg, or something along those lines.
i'm sure you could find the post if you went digging but the original post just simply asked the question, not how to do it, or if someone else could do it for them, just if it was possible.
the fact that they hadn't pieced it together on their own kind of gave away that maybe they weren't ready, but i didn't see any replies that were very constructive, at least the ones i saw.
i feel as though the better / kinder approach would be to say 'yes, it's possible. if you brush up on your networking and understanding of 3d in gamemaker, then you'll have no problem.' but what i saw was just people making the same assumption i just did, and rather than suggest where to start, or what to study, or the experience required, they just told the person that they weren't ready and that was that. huge waste of their own time in my opinion, and it comes across in a way that suggests that they're not worth the explanation or the advice on how to take their first steps.

of course, i'm not saying that we should be investing hours into walking a person along, but i'm sure you can see the point i'm trying to make.
sometimes, if the response doesn't contribute much more than a lazy 'give up', it isn't worth the time typing those two words either.

that said, i do agree. it's incredible difficult to understand what people's intentions are online.
i personally believe that the best approach to most online situations with a crippling lack of context are to assume the best and proceed with the benefit of the doubt.
sometimes people don't have the time or words to convey what it is that they're looking for. language barriers are a big hurdle for that from what i see on these forums, but at the end of the day, the majority are here to learn, not to run away with somebody else's hard work to mark it up as their own.
 

O.Stogden

Member
Yeah, I've noticed this, and I generally try my best to overlook when things happen, and it's happened to me in the past. Admittedly I asked for help on a subject that was pretty easy, and I was annoyed with myself for not realizing my mistake, but still ended up with a rather condescending reply questioning my programming ability and whether or not I was fit to make a game, as if that's even a thing.

I mostly put it down to the fact that we don't really know what's going on with people, different cultures can put things across in different ways, and often don't mean any harm, they're just very blunt and straight-forward when they put across their view. Sometimes it could be something along the lines of Autism, where that's just how they are, but we don't know them personally, and have no way of knowing that's their personality, we're all identical to each other on here, and we probably have a set standard of what we expect, so we don't make allowances for people that we might make in real life, if we knew the person. If you knew someone with a type of Autism for example, you might overlook certain behaviour because you know it's not easy for them to control it or they may not even realize it's upset someone, we don't have that benefit on here and might not overlook it so easily.

But that's just my thoughts on it, similar to Saffeine, try and give the benefit of the doubt as long as they're not *too* rude/nasty, we don't really know anything about each other at the end of the day.
 

Sabnock

Member
I think its the mentality of people assuming others "feelings"(?) through text, a post asking for help can very well come off as "please do X for me kthxbye" and that's obviously annoying.
I do see a few members being unnecessarily crucial over members and there topics. I think the issue is trying to get everyone to help everyone they want to help in a friendly way that doesn't come off as aggressive.
Theres only so much text can give of the mood/intention of the poster.
I guess this is what Emoji's were invented for :D
 

vdweller

Member
Indeed the forum has a few people who act in a harsh manner towards newcomers and generally inexperienced people. This is largely to be expected, do not forget that forums are a micro-society and as long as hard rules are not broken, you get behaviors all over the spectrum, possibly with a pinch of admin bias too, and no amount of pleading will change that.

In my opinion the main problem with the elitist attitude is the lack of proper context, especially for the product called Game Maker. This software is designed in such a manner that it can be used by a very broad demographic. It can be used from educational purposes to full-fledged console game development. As such, the age, experiences and ultimate goals of the target demographic can vary vastly. In a hardcore forum about C++ for business applications you can expect people who are frustrated over trivial questions regarding language features because it is generally expected to have a basic a priori knowledge of the language features.

However with Game Maker a user asking a stupid question or a user who has overlooked a manual reference can be, for all we know, a quite successful in real life person who just wants to **** around with the program because they found it interesting or maybe a 14 year old girl who doesn't have the brain to read all those manual entries because she is too ****faced after her chemo session. I guess giving her life lessons and suggesting that she has to read 3 books of linear algebra to move an instance will help her very much in the remaining 5 years of life she has. Hah! That'll teach her!

So yeah, context.

Most of these elitist people claim that they are in this forum for X years and they have a lot of experience and can identify patterns in user behavior and their overall qualities. This may hold some truth. However I am old enough to say that I have also been enough around in life both outside and inside the virtual world to have seen this type of people too. These people fall themselves into an archetype and they fail so hard to realise that that it's wonderfully ironic. They are not evil, they are just smart and they are fed up with stupidity. Most often they lack the emotional intelligence to deal with stupidity in a disciplined manner, which is quite the contradiction since they usually stress the lack of discipline of their target when they criticize them.

Another aspect I have observed is that some of these people are actually not game developers, they work in some field related to computer science but have some sort of pet fetish coming in a gamedev forum and insulting others for their lack of knowledge. Such an act is an incurable passion, and one they engage in from a safe distance, since they don't have anything substantial in the form of a full, possibly commercial-level game to receive criticism about.

If all that sounds sad, perhaps the saddest of them all is that sometimes these people are surrounded by their very own idiot underachiever troupe showering them with likes whenever they post a snide remark, possibly believing they will rub off some of that programming guru status. "Hey, this guy knows about dynamic_cast in C++ and he just called that newbie an idiot! Hah! He is harsh but fair, yuck yuck! This is how WE elite programmers roll!" See? Micro-society. Mob mentality. The need for a leader. It's surreal to not expect any of these traits to manifest on any virtual gathering place.

Exceptionally smart people can be exceptionally stupid in certain narrow aspects of life, social interactions included. Some of them mellow down with age. We'll see.

Old papa vdweller out.
 
I don't know what other users opinions are of me, so I dunno if I'm one of the culprits in this regard, but I will say that I've definitely had harsh criticism for people sometimes. It's something that I noticed growing easier to give in to the more I Q&A'd in the programming section, so I've taken the route of limiting both my time spent lurking there and also the number of questions I'll answer. That being said, it's definitely a complicated subject for me.

I was on the forums waaay back when Mark still owned GM and I got a lot of help (though, I think that the majority of the userbase were teens like me, so it was more like everyone growing together). There were arseholes then as there are now and it didn't dampen my enthusiasm. But the internet in general was more of a wild west place back then, so I dunno if that affected my viewpoint towards people acting negatively.

Because I've spent so much time being helped by the community, I do genuinely want to give back (and I try to do so). The main problem that I think happens is that there's only so many times you can answer the same questions asked a thousand times without starting to slip in a little snark. The 3D MMORPG is a good example. I've seen that question asked literally the entire time I've been a part of the GM community. Going back over 15 years. The same question. Lol. It's easy enough to do a search and find an answer. But whatever, people gonna people. It's the reason why I decided to step back from Q&A; I don't want to be a bitter dude arguing with people on the internet, but sometimes repetition can wear you down, especially faceless repetition through the internet (does my mind really instinctively arrive at the fact that "leetgamedev223" with a default avatar and "mrcoolgames029" with a default avatar both asking the exact same question are entirely distinct people with different motivations and life situations?...I don't really think so).

In general, I try to approach topics with an open mind and a willingness to extend the benefit of the doubt. If I post a rant at someone (which, as I've said, I've been known to do in the past), it's usually after an extended exchange with them as I slowly realise that I'm putting in a lot of work to help them and they are trying their very best not to do any work of their own, which feels frustrating and also like they are taking advantage of what is essentially an unpaid helpline in order to get something done for them.

Also, sometimes the question answerers are having a bad day and this can show in their responses (especially when they routinely answer questions every day, as it's harder to mentally understand that "hey maybe I shouldn't be doing this right now" when it's a part of your routine).

With all that being said, I think it would be better for everyone overall if there was less sharp criticism on the board.
 
Yeah, I've never understood the need to reply to someone's post asking for help if you're not actually going to help. I rarely reply to posts in the Programming section of the forum because I'm unsure that my own solutions to their problems are the "best practices", even if they work, and I don't want to steer a new coder down a wrong path because I've unwittingly walked down that path myself. But even if the answer to a question posted is obvious to me, I can remember a time when it wasn't. And I'm sure any "I'm a genius for figuring this out" breakthrough I would have on any problem would be completely obvious to a number of people here. So I would just say, remember that we were ALL there once. And even if a lot of newcomers see you as so far beyond what they could ever hope to achieve, some people would look at you and say you're STILL there.
 

saffeine

Member
I don't know what other users opinions are of me, so I dunno if I'm one of the culprits in this regard, but I will say that I've definitely had harsh criticism for people sometimes. It's something that I noticed growing easier to give in to the more I Q&A'd in the programming section, so I've taken the route of limiting both my time spent lurking there and also the number of questions I'll answer. That being said, it's definitely a complicated subject for me.

I was on the forums waaay back when Mark still owned GM and I got a lot of help (though, I think that the majority of the userbase were teens like me, so it was more like everyone growing together). There were arseholes then as there are now and it didn't dampen my enthusiasm. But the internet in general was more of a wild west place back then, so I dunno if that affected my viewpoint towards people acting negatively.

Because I've spent so much time being helped by the community, I do genuinely want to give back (and I try to do so). The main problem that I think happens is that there's only so many times you can answer the same questions asked a thousand times without starting to slip in a little snark. The 3D MMORPG is a good example. I've seen that question asked literally the entire time I've been a part of the GM community. Going back over 15 years. The same question. Lol. It's easy enough to do a search and find an answer. But whatever, people gonna people. It's the reason why I decided to step back from Q&A; I don't want to be a bitter dude arguing with people on the internet, but sometimes repetition can wear you down, especially faceless repetition through the internet (does my mind really instinctively arrive at the fact that "leetgamedev223" with a default avatar and "mrcoolgames029" with a default avatar both asking the exact same question are entirely distinct people with different motivations and life situations?...I don't really think so).

In general, I try to approach topics with an open mind and a willingness to extend the benefit of the doubt. If I post a rant at someone (which, as I've said, I've been known to do in the past), it's usually after an extended exchange with them as I slowly realise that I'm putting in a lot of work to help them and they are trying their very best not to do any work of their own, which feels frustrating and also like they are taking advantage of what is essentially an unpaid helpline in order to get something done for them.

Also, sometimes the question answerers are having a bad day and this can show in their responses (especially when they routinely answer questions every day, as it's harder to mentally understand that "hey maybe I shouldn't be doing this right now" when it's a part of your routine).

With all that being said, I think it would be better for everyone overall if there was less sharp criticism on the board.
i appreciate the fact that you've identified that negative attitude in yourself and remain conscious of it even now.
for whatever it might be worth, i can't speak for everyone, but you're definitely not somebody that popped up on my radar of 'regular offenders', not that i've been digging extensively of course.
furthermore, if there's been a back and forth exchange for a few posts, i can't fault you for eventually running out of patience. it's not something i wanted to mention in the original post, but it does happen.

the points that i made in the initial post are more to do with how users go forward with their first approach, not so much what it might spiral into.
my advice to you, if it's something that you do find yourself struggling with quite often, is if you're tired of answering the same question over and over, then just don't.
rather than going in all hot-headed, venting your frustration beneath the words that you choose to reply with, simply point somebody in the right direction with a link or something.
obviously this comes with the concern that if they don't understand the source material, they might fall back on you for help, so do keep that in mind, but it's still incredibly helpful to just provide a reference.
if you absolutely do not want to get yourself involved, then feel free to just not do it. the decision to help someone is one you're free to make, exercise your freedom, and just scroll past if you absolutely have to.

again, i didn't really see that kind of behaviour from you, and i saw that you were very active in trying to answer questions at the time of posting the original post.
if you find yourself getting worn out by a conversation, you still have the freedom to excuse yourself before you lash out, it's entirely your choice to make, however you want to make it.
the only note i can think to end on is that i respect your efforts, and the acknowledgement that you find yourself slipping every now and again. it takes some real courage to accept that.

-

on an off-topic note, but relevant to your reply: i didn't even know that mark no longer owned GM, holy ****. that's how long i've been away from the forums. the more you know.
 
If people have an issue with what is being posted, in that they feel it is overly harsh or borderline abusive (because of the abrasiveness of the posts), then use the Report button on the post so the mods can deal with it. That's probably the best thing to do so that these members can be dealt with officially, and the topics can be tidied.
If nobody reports the obnoxious posts, then there is less chance that a mod will see it and therefore less chance that something will be done about it.
 

saffeine

Member
If people have an issue with what is being posted, in that they feel it is overly harsh or borderline abusive (because of the abrasiveness of the posts), then use the Report button on the post so the mods can deal with it. That's probably the best thing to do so that these members can be dealt with officially, and the topics can be tidied.
If nobody reports the obnoxious posts, then there is less chance that a mod will see it and therefore less chance that something will be done about it.
that's absolutely true, but it never hurts to nudge people in the right direction and hope we can start off on a good foot, rather than get our legs swept from under us in the first reply.
i think everybody is aware of the report feature, it's not really anything new to online circles, but i think every now and then people don't seem to realise what's considered common courtesy in a community.
one major issue is that eventually a community begins to divide into cliques, and the attitude of the loudest clique becomes the norm, and nobody dares challenge it, moderator or otherwise.
of course, i'm not saying that moderators aren't doing their job. i haven't been here long enough recently to make a ballsy claim like that, but as with any environment, once something becomes the norm, it slips under the radar.
i'm sure the moderators are doing their job completely fine. the handful i've seen have been incredibly helpful in the community. i just hope there never comes a point where they themselves forget how people should be treated.

tldr: even the most diligent people can become used to misdemeanours. let's just hope we can all maintain the standard of courtesy.
 

O.Stogden

Member
I think also on the point of reporting, often the "offenders" aren't specifically breaking a forum rule. There's a rule suggesting people be polite, but there isn't, and probably shouldn't, be a rule about being rude or discourteous. As I can see that being misinterpreted and misapplied all over the place.

The closest we get is the rule about attacking or threatening a user, which I haven't really witnessed on here.

As rules aren't necessarily being broken in many cases, the moderators most likely wouldn't take action even if we did feel offended and reported it, it would probably take the form of what this thread is, a reminder.

Unless as GameDevDan said, the moderators take a look at things as they are and decide that things should be adjusted.
 

zendraw

Member
i want to preface this post firstly with a disclaimer: this is not meant to target an individual, group of individuals, or a specific corner of the community. if you feel like this is targeted at you, then please consider why you believe that to be the case. likewise, if you feel as though this is targeted towards somebody else and a name comes to mind, please keep it to yourself. i don't wish to stir up drama so much as i just want to address an issue that i've noticed across several threads. with that out of the way, here are the thoughts i want to spew.

i feel as though members of the community are developing some real nasty attitudes towards others, and it's disheartening to see. this is more so in regards to the 'please help' threads. new gamemaker users are barely given a palpable response unless it's laced with bigotry, elitism, needless criticism, or just some other form of response that serves as anything but an answer to their questions. this is just one example of bad attitude, with another being conversation between members on various other threads whether it's on topic or not.

i get it, i really do. time is precious, we don't want to spend it on helping someone, or bickering with somebody else, but it isn't a warrant for condescension.
i've seen users ask questions like 'is x possible in gamemaker', or 'how can i do y in gamemaker', and in fairness a hefty amount of answers are quite helpful.
on the other hand, i've seen responses that boil down to 'no. you aren't ready.' with no actual basis to the claim other than the fact that the way they type doesn't meet someone else's standards, or that they haven't yet figured out how to do one thing, so tackling another thing is already a lost cause until they become 'a better programmer'.
i can understand that inexperienced users shouldn't be trying to sprint before they can crawl, but why must we give them a hard 'no.' without a pointer in the right direction?

i've been using gamemaker since i was somewhere around the age of 11, and i understood barely anything about programming.
occasionally i would come to the forums ( on an older account, long since lost ) and appeal for help, to which i would get either somebody putting the time into doing the work for me, or at the very least telling me where to go.
don't get me wrong, i don't think any experienced programmer should be doing someone else's work for them. you don't learn by copy + pasting a script that someone else spoon fed to you on the forums, but some actual help wouldn't go amiss.
if i came to these forums as they currently are at the age of 11 and was criticised on my harmless mannerisms by somebody with no interest in actually helping me, i don't think i would have ever pursued game development as a hobby.
even now, i type in all lowercase because it's just something i prefer to do, but that isn't something that should be detracting from my value as a wannabe developer, nor should any lack of experience in the field.

if somebody is asking for help, then make a choice. help them, or don't help them.
if you aren't willing to sink the time into holding somebody's hand for a few posts, then don't engage.
if you are willing to sink the time into holding somebody's hand for a while, then try to be clear with them. tell them where they're going wrong, show them the correct practice, be constructive.
if somebody is clearly not ready to tackle something they're asking about, let them know, but additionally tell them where they should start, and where they need to be before trying again.
you don't have to write somebody else's code to be a respectable human being, just don't be condescending, and don't play all high and mighty just because you can.

i'm not going to sit here and beg for people to change the way they speak to each other. after all, i'm just some random person on the internet with no credibility.
this isn't my place to say what people should or shouldn't do. everyone has their free will, they can do with it what they please.
all i hope is that maybe we can all reflect on where we are as a community, and strive to cultivate something far more pleasant than what i currently see in it.

if anyone has any further input, then i'm all ears. but again, please don't name any names, or use this point to attack anybody else.

oh, and mods, if this thread is in the wrong place or somehow breaks the guidelines of which i couldn't find a broken rule in, then by all means send it to the grave.
this is actually my experience aswell when i started, but not for help, more about sharing my thoughts. but i also get it when i ask for help, even now when i post a topic theres aways that guy that acts knowledgable but cant grasp a simple concept and needs a tutorial from me. but there are aways helpful people so i cant complain, i get help. in the end i think this is just complaints anyway, if you want to dev, then dev, hobby or no hobby you shuld be doing the thing. this here shuldnt discourage you.

the big problems come when you collaborate with people, if you care about your projects then wait for people who can help you in your topics.
 

FrostyCat

Member
Quite frankly, it takes two to tango. It does responders like me no justice to say that the rookies don't have a hand in this.

A lot of recent rookies have been demonstrating poor literacy, numeracy and common sense like it's a badge of pride. Programming demands all three. When I say "put X in the Create event and Y in the HTTP event" and X and Y both end up in the Create event, that's not being literate. When someone attempts 3D graphics without vector math, that's not being numerate. When rookies attempt networked games and large projects out of the gate without any grasp of GML, that's not showing common sense. I may be known for not being the nicest, but when presented with literacy, numeracy and common sense, I can be nice and pleasant. A lot of people I've responded to can attest to that.

Since you brought up the 3D multiplayer topic, let's start with that. I know which one you're talking about, I was in it. This is how it went:
  • When the OP first asked the question, the first response is from the author of over a dozen GM books, saying that it won't be feasible for someone without at 2-3 years of experience. The OP disregarded that advice and pressed on.
  • The second response is from an ex-moderator, probing him on what he plans to do for basic network synchronization tasks. In every case, the OP gave an answer that reflects a poor grasp of the theory, and finished with a display of Dunning-Kruger.
  • Then I stepped in asking him to read up on correspondence chess to correct his intuition, get a tutorial for building a chat room, then relate the two together. He finishes by saying "didn't read the whole thing lol".
Every response up to this point was constructive, and every one of them was disregarded. This is NOT new or cute, this is obnoxious and disrespectful. It comes as no surprise to me that every post that came after piled on the OP. The OP asked for it. And did I tell you I was NOT in the pile-on, but the ex-moderator is?

On top of this, I think a lot of recent rookies are driving responders up a wall by disregarding and misreading instructions, in ways that look like it's on purpose. They are actively creating the kinds of responders that don't take nicely to them, both for themselves and others caught in the crossfire. Shine a light into our eyes too often, and we'll go into every room wearing sunglasses.

I know a knowledgeable member who recently joined last winter and started out perfectly friendly. For a while it worked, but then rookies started misreading his instructions and talking back to him thinking it's friendly. His tone started to take a turn, and he's now just as sarcastic as I am known for. Just last week, he responded to a user's question about why GM doesn't detect infinite loops and avoid them, correctly stating that it's because the Halting Problem is undecidable. The user then talked back speculating about the likes of "machine learning", imaginary "robots" and "quantum computing". He snapped after a few exchanges and I understand why. Again, this is NOT new or cute, this is obnoxious and disrespectful.

A lot of people tell me to think back to when I was a novice. Yes, I still remember the times when I was a novice, and I treated nobody who helped me back then the way today's young novices often do. I didn't "lol", I didn't "TLDR", I didn't rely on strangers to read error messages to me, I didn't use people online to read my own code to me. This is why a lot of old-stock responders get sarcastic towards young novices. They are making avoidable mistakes that we've never made because we were thoughtful in our work, and they are speaking in ways that we never spoke in because we knew beggars shouldn't act like choosers.

If you want positive forum Q&A interactions, act like you've done your due diligence and mean what you're doing. Be a credit to your level. Respect is a two-way street.
 

Sybok

Member
if somebody is asking for help, then make a choice. help them, or don't help them.
I don't believe this thread is targeted towards myself. But I'll politely gauge the post by asking the poster what they have tried. This is my way of determining whether they actually want help or if it is another 'give me a solution, without me trying' thread. If it's the latter, I'll move on. If not, I'll go as deep as my ability allows to help them.

With any posts I assist with, I'll often know the answer outright. But not just hand them the solution, but to engage to make help them think about the problem. For people willing to learn, they seem to appreciate this. For the others who just want code, maybe less so.

This might upset people who just want the "fish". But, I don't have the fish, so I'll help people learn how to "catch the fish".
 

zendraw

Member
i must say this is also the case, noobs boasting when they are not spoonfed, im not talking about some topic frostcat is talking about but from my experience.
 

zendraw

Member
I don't believe this thread is targeted towards myself. But I'll politely gauge the post by asking the poster what they have tried. This is my way of determining whether they actually want help or if it is another 'give me a solution, without me trying' thread. If it's the latter, I'll move on. If not, I'll go as deep as my ability allows to help them.

With any posts I assist with, I'll often know the answer outright. But not just hand them the solution, but to engage to make help them think about the problem. For people willing to learn, they seem to appreciate this. For the others who just want code, maybe less so.

This might upset people who just want the "fish". But, I don't have the fish, so I'll help people learn how to "catch the fish".
this is not absolutely correct, you teach people to fish when they are taking the initiative, but in meny cases, my cases for that matter, i dont want to be tought, i want to be aware of why this and that, in other words providing code that i can observe then guiding people thru a tutorial when they have alredy leveled up to 30lv. dont be fanatical with your methods, be original and see what the person needs rather then being a hindrance.
 
on the other hand, i've seen responses that boil down to 'no. you aren't ready.' with no actual basis to the claim other than the fact that the way they type doesn't meet someone else's standards, or that they haven't yet figured out how to do one thing, so tackling another thing is already a lost cause until they become 'a better programmer'.
i can understand that inexperienced users shouldn't be trying to sprint before they can crawl, but why must we give them a hard 'no.' without a pointer in the right direction?
I'm going to disagree with the initial takeaway from this, assuming this "No, you aren't ready" isn't said in a rude or condescending manner. There are several good reasons to give a hard "no" right off the bat. For example, let's say there's a user new to development, and he asks if it's possible to do something extremely difficult. This happens often enough that "Can I make a Open-world MMORPG with 10,000 Pokeymans" is a meme around here. Some games just aren't feasible for a single developer to work on. Even in a group, scope creep is still brutal and starting off with a massive scope will only lead to failure. Telling these people to put their dream game on hold until they "become a better programmer" will save them months to years of time and wasted effort in the long run.

I don't typically respond to "can I do x in GM" topics, but from my experience, if someone has to ask if something is possible, it's not going to be possible for them to do it. It's not unreasonable to give this advice politely and nudge them in the right direction a little.

Moreover, I posted a project here, now has more than 60 views, yet not even a single feedback. Feedback helps a lot during this time.
The WIP forum here isn't the best place to get feedback. It's absolutely demoralizing working on a long-term project like an RPG and only getting ~30 responses over the course of almost 3 years. After shifting my priorities to places like Twitter and Gamedev Discord groups, I found a lot more success and am getting a lot more feedback. There's only going to be a percentage of users interested in your game, and given that the activity on this forum is heavily concentrated in the programming question boards, it makes sense there's not a lot of activity on any given project. Don't put all your eggs in one basket; spread out your presence.
 

TsukaYuriko

🌠
Forum Staff
Moderator
Please keep discussion in this topic civil and objective - it was not started with the intention to point fingers at people and it should not be led into this direction. :)
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I find it curious that this topic has sprung up at this point in time... I've been admin of this forum for a long time now, and before that I was a mod, and before that just a regular joe member. I started from the lowest noob rungs of the ladder and have reached pretty high in those years (there are still people that know a LOT more than I do!), and I think that my experiences on the forum give me a wider perspective of things than perhaps most people... So...

When I first joined the GMC it was a smaller community and there were a few "toxic" people around... however everyone knew who they were and they were tolerated more-or-less because they had knowledge and experience and something to offer. Since the forum was smaller, the mods could keep these people in line, and people tolerated a bit more crap since it was a more "familiar" place.

Now, fast forward a year or two, and there was a large growth in the user base and a large turnover of staff as well as a lot of the old-school users leaving the forum... and as such, the forum became a fair bit more toxic, as the sense of family fell by the wayside, and people started being a lot more obnoxious and rude to each other. This was, in part, due to a lack of coherence in the staff, and also due to a lot more casual members joining and (to some extent) a bit of resentment to regular users. We also got a new crop of trolls, some of whom were incredibly toxic, but never quite broke the rules, making it very hard to deal with them... I still remember seeing comments on twitter and reddit and other places saying the GMC was the worst and it was a cess-pool, etc...!!!!

Fast forward again to the present day... The forum is much more structured and the mods are amazing and we all have a coherent vision for what we want this forum to be and how to act, even though all the mods are very much individuals and have their own way of doing things. The user-base has changed again, and we don't have any of the old trolls that used to hang around here anymore (again, mainly due to the fantastic job the mods have done, but also in large part to the regular members who have less tolerance for them), and we have a great balance of new users, general users, and experienced users. And, I am damn proud of this place! We are no longer a "cess-pool" where people don't want to post and instead we have regained in some part the old community spirit.

So, what's my point? Well, this forum is a living organism and it changes all the time, but looking at the broader picture, it is still a fantastic and friendly place, possibly more so now than ever before! How many topics in the programming or tech support forums have 0 replies in them? How many topics have to wait for more than a few hours to get a reply? VERY few. Yes, the games forums are a bit lackluster, but that's always been the case, as we're devs first and gamers second! Do we have some users that could be more polite when they post? Yes. Do we have some users that could be a bit more thankful that they actually got replies? Yes. But, honestly, do we have any really toxic users? I'd say no, and for that I personally am really thankful.

I know this is a bit of a rambling post, but I want you all to know that as far as I'm concerned, the poorly worded, critical, judgmental, rude, arrogant, ignorant or just downright obtuse posts are NOT the norm, and really, they stand out so much and get noticed by you guys BECAUSE they are not the norm. The norm is helpful, kind, insightful, educated, informed and friendly posts. So, let's not concentrate on the negatives... just report them and let the staff deal with them! We will talk to these members and try and get them to understand that their methods are not correct within the vision of what we want for this forum, and - where necessary - we will restrict accounts so posts will be previewed before being public. If we don't know about these issues, we can't resolve them, so, please, if you see something you don't like, report it, then ignore it and keep doing what you do normally, which is help out those that request it and generally just be awesome people.

:bunny:
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Damn, I've been redacted twice. Interesting forum we have here...
Yup! No offense, but this is a general topic and the user you were replying to had made a general comment, but you chose to make a personal reply. That's not the purpose of this topic, and we'd like to keep it as impersonal as possible. Pointing fingers does nobody any good. The people we are talking about already know who they are, and if they don't they'll find out when their topics stop getting responses or they get reported. ;)
 

Sybok

Member
Yup! No offense, but this is a general topic and the user you were replying to had made a general comment, but you chose to make a personal reply. That's not the purpose of this topic, and we'd like to keep it as impersonal as possible. Pointing fingers does nobody any good. The people we are talking about already know who they are, and if they don't they'll find out when their topics stop getting responses or they get reported. ;)
I agree with where you are coming from, I really do.

In all fairness though when the answers we (both yourself and myself) are considered to be a hindrance. Don't you think that this adds to the fuel of which sparked this topic in the first place?

Is the purpose of this forum to give whole verbatim code solutions? Or is it to help others learn?
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
Is the purpose of this forum to give whole verbatim code solutions? Or is it to help others learn?
Oh it's to help others learn, most definitely! And I have often pointed users to look at things in the manual or other posts rather than give them 100% answers, as we really should encourage as much lateral thinking and problem solving skills as possible. However, we also have to take into consideration a number of factors when replying to users... Like, is english their native language? What age are they? What culture do they come from? What mental state are they in? What disabilities do they have? All these things can contribute to posts looking rude or mean. For example, an autist posting may come across as incredibly obtuse or single minded (much like the post you are referring to ;) ), or a person from a different culture may come across as very demanding (but that's because their culture is like that).

What I'm saying is that - as helpers - it's our duty to be as understanding and open as possible, and not judge people straight away like some do. I've seen people post one topic and then - thanks to a poorly worded reply - request their account be deleted!!! And that can be avoided by simply being mindful of the fact that you have no idea who is on the other side of the screen nor what circumstances they are in. Obviously, if you see 5 posts by the same person and they are all rude or arrogant or demanding, then you should indeed call them out on it (politely!) or report it, or simply DON'T ANSWER. You'd be amazed how people can change when their questions and demands are simply ignored... :)
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
I'd also like to take a moment to address a couple of points raised here:

It does responders like me no justice to say that the rookies don't have a hand in this.
Do you think "rookie" is an adequate word to use for a beginner? Rookie has a lot of negative connotations, and I have to say that it comes across as incredibly condescending... perhaps it's not just the rookies that have a hand in this? And, as experienced users, shouldn't we be the ones showing how to be helpful and kind and understanding when a "rookie" requires it? There are a million ways to say the same thing to a user, so does it always have to be as harsh as possible?

I may be known for not being the nicest, but when presented with literacy, numeracy and common sense, I can be nice and pleasant.
Can't people be nice and pleasant ALL THE TIME with no pre-conditions? I mean, sometimes being harsh is necessary, but even then it can be done in a respectful and kindhearted way. There are a number of members on this forum who I've had to have harsh words with, but I don't think any of them have thought I was being rude, unkind, or disrespectful while doing it (even when they are being disrespectful to me!). I know for a fact, that some of them consider me a friendly figure who they can approach with their issues, even after me having warned them and in some cases banned them. This is due - I'm sure - to my always trying to be respectful. I don't demand that others PROVE they are worthy of my respect first.

If you want positive forum Q&A interactions, act like you've done your due diligence and mean what you're doing. Be a credit to your level. Respect is a two-way street.
You can't tell people to act in ways they have possibly never even been taught, and demand things from them then slap them down when they don't meet your high expectations. Respect is something you should give to everyone, and not judge whether they are worthy of it or not. If people truly want to show respect then they'd do it by being patient and explaining what "due diligence" is, and not use condescending and/or aggressive phrases.


PS: Not trying to single out frostycat here, as I have the greatest respect for them! I just feel that these three comments sum up a certain "elitist" attitude that I see from some users, and so deserved a special mention.
 

Amon

Member
I find it curious that this topic has sprung up at this point in time... I've been admin of this forum for a long time now, and before that I was a mod, and before that just a regular joe member. I started from the lowest noob rungs of the ladder and have reached pretty high in those years (there are still people that know a LOT more than I do!), and I think that my experiences on the forum give me a wider perspective of things than perhaps most people... So...

When I first joined the GMC it was a smaller community and there were a few "toxic" people around... however everyone knew who they were and they were tolerated more-or-less because they had knowledge and experience and something to offer. Since the forum was smaller, the mods could keep these people in line, and people tolerated a bit more crap since it was a more "familiar" place.

Now, fast forward a year or two, and there was a large growth in the user base and a large turnover of staff as well as a lot of the old-school users leaving the forum... and as such, the forum became a fair bit more toxic, as the sense of family fell by the wayside, and people started being a lot more obnoxious and rude to each other. This was, in part, due to a lack of coherence in the staff, and also due to a lot more casual members joining and (to some extent) a bit of resentment to regular users. We also got a new crop of trolls, some of whom were incredibly toxic, but never quite broke the rules, making it very hard to deal with them... I still remember seeing comments on twitter and reddit and other places saying the GMC was the worst and it was a cess-pool, etc...!!!!

Fast forward again to the present day... The forum is much more structured and the mods are amazing and we all have a coherent vision for what we want this forum to be and how to act, even though all the mods are very much individuals and have their own way of doing things. The user-base has changed again, and we don't have any of the old trolls that used to hang around here anymore (again, mainly due to the fantastic job the mods have done, but also in large part to the regular members who have less tolerance for them), and we have a great balance of new users, general users, and experienced users. And, I am damn proud of this place! We are no longer a "cess-pool" where people don't want to post and instead we have regained in some part the old community spirit.

So, what's my point? Well, this forum is a living organism and it changes all the time, but looking at the broader picture, it is still a fantastic and friendly place, possibly more so now than ever before! How many topics in the programming or tech support forums have 0 replies in them? How many topics have to wait for more than a few hours to get a reply? VERY few. Yes, the games forums are a bit lackluster, but that's always been the case, as we're devs first and gamers second! Do we have some users that could be more polite when they post? Yes. Do we have some users that could be a bit more thankful that they actually got replies? Yes. But, honestly, do we have any really toxic users? I'd say no, and for that I personally am really thankful.

I know this is a bit of a rambling post, but I want you all to know that as far as I'm concerned, the poorly worded, critical, judgmental, rude, arrogant, ignorant or just downright obtuse posts are NOT the norm, and really, they stand out so much and get noticed by you guys BECAUSE they are not the norm. The norm is helpful, kind, insightful, educated, informed and friendly posts. So, let's not concentrate on the negatives... just report them and let the staff deal with them! We will talk to these members and try and get them to understand that their methods are not correct within the vision of what we want for this forum, and - where necessary - we will restrict accounts so posts will be previewed before being public. If we don't know about these issues, we can't resolve them, so, please, if you see something you don't like, report it, then ignore it and keep doing what you do normally, which is help out those that request it and generally just be awesome people.

:bunny:
Now that is a reply and a half. It about sums up how other programming forums should also be, but aren't: ruined by trolls and idiots with nothing better to do. I agree 100% with the description of how this place feels. It's fun, it's happy, and, people are not afraid of posting for help.

That's how it should be.
 

EvanSki

King of Raccoons
Can't people be nice and pleasant ALL THE TIME with no pre-conditions? I mean, sometimes being harsh is necessary, but even then it can be done in a respectful and kindhearted way. There are a number of members on this forum who I've had to have harsh words with, but I don't think any of them have thought I was being rude, unkind, or disrespectful while doing it (even when they are being disrespectful to me!). I know for a fact, that some of them consider me a friendly figure who they can approach with their issues, even after me having warned them and in some cases banned them. This is due - I'm sure - to my always trying to be respectful. I don't demand that others PROVE they are worthy of my respect first.
I mean its right in his title "Friendly Tyrant"
I agree with everything Nocturne has said, you can be "harsh" while being kind and respectful at the same time.
This community feels a lot like a home for me, I love loging on to it everyday!
And its all because everyone keeps up with being nice and respectful to each other.
 

saffeine

Member
oof, to wake up in the middle of the night to see this booming.
i'm going to reply to a couple things then probably head back to bed.

Since you brought up the 3D multiplayer topic, let's start with that. I know which one you're talking about, I was in it. This is how it went:
  • When the OP first asked the question, the first response is from the author of over a dozen GM books, saying that it won't be feasible for someone without at 2-3 years of experience. The OP disregarded that advice and pressed on.
  • The second response is from an ex-moderator, probing him on what he plans to do for basic network synchronization tasks. In every case, the OP gave an answer that reflects a poor grasp of the theory, and finished with a display of Dunning-Kruger.
  • Then I stepped in asking him to read up on correspondence chess to correct his intuition, get a tutorial for building a chat room, then relate the two together. He finishes by saying "didn't read the whole thing lol".
i can't help but feel like this excludes a lot of nuance from the topic, at least the very first few messages.
the op didn't 'disregard' the advice, they just didn't have a solid understanding of why what they wanted to achieve wasn't achievable ( by them ).
i don't disagree that the op wasn't ready to create the next runescape, but nobody took a moment and thought 'hang on, why don't we tell them that they can, if they first learn the fundamentals of both 3d and networking'.
i know that to a lot of users, myself included, this seems like an obvious thing, but it isn't obvious to everybody. inexperienced programmers don't have a very good grasp of scope, it doesn't hurt to put it into perspective.
i fully acknowledge that the replies were all well within their reason, but they left so many questions not yet spoken unanswered, meaning that it was doomed to follow a cycle of 'silly question' and 'snarky answer' until they got the point.
i believe you're right in saying that every response was constructive, but i don't think they were effective. they left op with breadcrumbs that they rightfully followed to figure out why it wasn't possible, and what they needed to know before it could be.
I know a knowledgeable member who recently joined last winter and started out perfectly friendly. For a while it worked, but then rookies started misreading his instructions and talking back to him thinking it's friendly. His tone started to take a turn, and he's now just as sarcastic as I am known for. Just last week, he responded to a user's question about why GM doesn't detect infinite loops and avoid them, correctly stating that it's because the Halting Problem is undecidable. The user then talked back speculating about the likes of "machine learning", imaginary "robots" and "quantum computing". He snapped after a few exchanges and I understand why. Again, this is NOT new or cute, this is obnoxious and disrespectful.

A lot of people tell me to think back to when I was a novice. Yes, I still remember the times when I was a novice, and I treated nobody who helped me back then the way today's young novices often do. I didn't "lol", I didn't "TLDR", I didn't rely on strangers to read error messages to me, I didn't use people online to read my own code to me. This is why a lot of old-stock responders get sarcastic towards young novices. They are making avoidable mistakes that we've never made because we were thoughtful in our work, and they are speaking in ways that we never spoke in because we knew beggars shouldn't act like choosers.

If you want positive forum Q&A interactions, act like you've done your due diligence and mean what you're doing. Be a credit to your level. Respect is a two-way street.
again, i do agree that new users have this mentality that to a lot of people is extremely obnoxious and disrespectful, but i'd like to once more reiterate that inexperienced users / programmers don't understand.
it might even sound condescending of me to make this comparison, but you don't start mocking a child for not yet knowing their right from their left. some things take time. sometimes people need it spelled out for them before it sinks in and they can re-approach the same situation with new knowledge to see where they made their biggest mistakes.
i mentioned in a previous reply that if there is a constant back and forth that devolves into some kind of argument or tension, this isn't the issue.
humans have a tendency to disagree and lose their temper after dealing with somebody's stubbornness or inability to 'just figure it out' for too long.
if this ends up being the case, we shouldn't be lashing out, we should be explaining that people are sometimes just wrong, and excuse ourselves from conversations.

i guess the bottom line of what i'm trying to say here is yes, respect is a two-way street, but we as experienced programmers shouldn't be expecting beginners to already understand even the fundamentals of programming, or even the same etiquette we have in a lot of cases. they need an introduction to our world as much as we did when we first started, and if we don't have the patience to help, we should at least have the patience to pass them a few watercolours and tell them to play around with them for a bit until they understand that red and yellow creates a murky orange. links to references and manuals are a perfectly valid response to a question too big to answer.


I don't believe this thread is targeted towards myself. But I'll politely gauge the post by asking the poster what they have tried. This is my way of determining whether they actually want help or if it is another 'give me a solution, without me trying' thread. If it's the latter, I'll move on. If not, I'll go as deep as my ability allows to help them.

With any posts I assist with, I'll often know the answer outright. But not just hand them the solution, but to engage to make help them think about the problem. For people willing to learn, they seem to appreciate this. For the others who just want code, maybe less so.

This might upset people who just want the "fish". But, I don't have the fish, so I'll help people learn how to "catch the fish".
honestly i think this is the most reasonable thing to do, and if you take this approach every time you enter a conversation, i assure you this thread isn't targeted towards you.
we can't be expected to just give people the code to make their projects work. it isn't fair on us, and all it does is provide them the result without them ever learning a thing.
i couldn't really put it in any better words than you did with the fish analogy, haha.


I'm going to disagree with the initial takeaway from this, assuming this "No, you aren't ready" isn't said in a rude or condescending manner. There are several good reasons to give a hard "no" right off the bat. For example, let's say there's a user new to development, and he asks if it's possible to do something extremely difficult. This happens often enough that "Can I make a Open-world MMORPG with 10,000 Pokeymans" is a meme around here. Some games just aren't feasible for a single developer to work on. Even in a group, scope creep is still brutal and starting off with a massive scope will only lead to failure. Telling these people to put their dream game on hold until they "become a better programmer" will save them months to years of time and wasted effort in the long run.

I don't typically respond to "can I do x in GM" topics, but from my experience, if someone has to ask if something is possible, it's not going to be possible for them to do it. It's not unreasonable to give this advice politely and nudge them in the right direction a little.
a perfectly reasonable disagreement, but i do want to reiterate the fact that i don't disagree with telling people that what they want to achieve isn't possible.
when people ask if something is possible, it's usually one of two things: 'does this engine allow it', or 'can i make this right now or in the next few weeks'. unfortunately we all know it tends to be the latter.
i don't think there's any inherent problem in telling people 'no', but that no should always be followed by a comma and a reason why that isn't just 'you have no clue'.
you summed up all the reasons why in this response, i just wish i could see more people offer these same reasons in actual practice, so at least then people can begin to understand why people are telling them they can't do it.
if you mention scope creep to someone who doesn't yet know what scope creep is, that's knowledge in their pocket to use next time they have an unrealistic dream they want to bring to life.

telling someone 'no' is never the problem, failing to explain why, or making them feel unfairly inadequate for daring to ask if and why is.


I find it curious that this topic has sprung up at this point in time... I've been admin of this forum for a long time now, and before that I was a mod, and before that just a regular joe member. I started from the lowest noob rungs of the ladder and have reached pretty high in those years (there are still people that know a LOT more than I do!), and I think that my experiences on the forum give me a wider perspective of things than perhaps most people... So...

-

I know this is a bit of a rambling post, but I want you all to know that as far as I'm concerned, the poorly worded, critical, judgmental, rude, arrogant, ignorant or just downright obtuse posts are NOT the norm, and really, they stand out so much and get noticed by you guys BECAUSE they are not the norm. The norm is helpful, kind, insightful, educated, informed and friendly posts. So, let's not concentrate on the negatives... just report them and let the staff deal with them! We will talk to these members and try and get them to understand that their methods are not correct within the vision of what we want for this forum, and - where necessary - we will restrict accounts so posts will be previewed before being public. If we don't know about these issues, we can't resolve them, so, please, if you see something you don't like, report it, then ignore it and keep doing what you do normally, which is help out those that request it and generally just be awesome people.
that's honestly very reassuring, and i hope my initial post didn't come across as me flat out accusing the forum as being a toxic cess-pool, as that's not what i was going for.
i did admit / will reiterate, i haven't really been around these forums since back when services such as the sandbox were a thing, so a lot of what i've seen are interactions from the past month at best.
i wouldn't say i necessarily jumped the gun in saying that people's attitudes are bad, because while it might not be the norm, it definitely looked to be an issue even just for a short time.

i think that in your handful of replies here, you managed to make all of the points i initially wanted to make in the original post. i fully agree with all the things you said.
we as a community of fellow game developers and programmers should do our best to be understanding and open, even if the extent of our patience is just linking someone to the appropriate page in the manual and calling it a day.

i've seen the time you take to answer people's questions in other threads and i do want to thank you, dare i say on behalf of the whole community, for just being so welcoming and informative.
i know it should pretty much be expected, given that you're an admin and all, but not all admins can be credited for the same effort, so it absolutely deserves a mention.
 
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Sybok

Member
It’s certainly interesting reading some of the responses in this thread. It highlights where some people are eager to learn and be a better programmer, where others prefer the give me the answer straight option.

I love nothing more than helping people get excited about learning something they didn’t previously know.

The ‘just hand me the code‘ types. Not so much. They are more trouble than they are worth and are the ones who will spit in your face, even though you spent several hours helping them out. They can go to the ’blocked’ collection in my opinion.
 

Misu

The forum's immigrant
Well, this forum is a living organism and it changes all the time, but looking at the broader picture, it is still a fantastic and friendly place, possibly more so now than ever before!
Before I say something about that statement, I would like to say that everything you said Noct is definitely something worth knowing. This community used to started out a slight mess of shenanigans and toxic people ( I was around for a decade in this forum to remember the crowd and manifestations that happened along the way) and it is something that gotten a little out of hand and messed up. But thankfully as the moderation team became way tighter, it eventually made the forum a lot more mature and I have noticed that throughout the time. However this sort of left me hanging because now with much more serious type of users around here, my kind of social behaviour does not seem welcome. I have notice lately that lot of people are not entice with my presence here. I dunno but the whole idea you say of a much friendly community seems more of a subjective term imo. I say this because it can be true what you say but this applies to a lot of members here who share and contribute the community with what mainly focuses here - game development. If I were to be off topic on the forum, it seems to be completely ignored or lack appreciation. I fully understand that this is a game dev community but with that taken more into a serious note, my kind of social aspect is not applied here anymore and it makes me depress as well. Anyway, I grew up with GMC for over a decade now and I continue to follow it onwards anyway despite how I am treated here. I continue to look forward on how this community changes and grow. It still pleases me to be here whether some people like it or not.
 

Sabnock

Member
The ‘just hand me the code‘ types. Not so much. They are more trouble than they are worth and are the ones who will spit in your face, even though you spent several hours helping them out. They can go to the ’blocked’ collection in my opinion.
These types are definitely the most tiresome to deal with. I get some are new and learning but there are these that can't be bothered to learn and just want you to do their work for them and for free.
 

Sybok

Member
@Misu Thanks for the heads up. I too am known for my fun loving shenanigans. I’ll be sure to heed your advice and keep my commentary as sterile as possible.

These types are definitely the most tiresome to deal with. I get some are new and learning but there are these that can't be bothered to learn and just want you to do their work for them and for free.
I am a quick learner. I’ll soon know which posts to answer and which to steer a mile clear of :D
 

Sabnock

Member
@Misu Thanks for the heads up. I too am known for my fun loving shenanigans. I’ll be sure to heed your advice and keep my commentary as sterile as possible.



I am a quick learner. I’ll soon know which posts to answer and which to steer a mile clear of :D
I am a slow learner and it has taken me about 3 / 4 years of messing with GMS to come even close to feeling confident enough to post what meagre advice i have to give in the forums. I am still learning and finding my style but I hope i am learning to be a helpful / nurturing member of the community but I have noticed on occasion that impatience does creep in and as mentioned elsewhere in this thread it is at those times I need to learn to back away or be more patient.

GMS has changed my life in many positive ways. It has allowed me to reclaim the passion for coding that I lost somewhere back in my youth and it has also allowed me to achieve many goals that I missed back then. TBH these were missed mainly because of a lack of educational resource, i.e. no internet. So having this community and the world wide web has given me the opportunity to sit back and say "managed it, job done" on some old, old projects and now i want give some of that back. I Just need to try not to become arrogant about it and remember that i was once all shiny and new as well.
 
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Sybok

Member
@Sabnock - FWIW, I have seen your posts around here and you seem like a cool guy. So I wouldn’t stress too much about that. :)

It‘s the ones that just demand a code, free GMS beta download, or the ones that say “I didn’t bother reading it” (literally had one of those the other day) that do your head in.

But we are a diverse lot and we are bound to rub each other the wrong way as some point. Even our own families do that to us. :p
 

Liam Jacobs

Member
To be fair to the GMC YYG Forums - have you been to any other popular programming forums lately? We're in a little slice of heaven compared to Stack Overflow (Am I allowed to namedrop other programming-question-websites like that? If not, please edit it out instead of removing the entire post. I'd greatly appreciate it!).

When people get a negative or hateful response here, there's usually a fair reason behind it. If there isn't (and even if there is, most of the time) the post will be removed.

The video game development scene is not what it was 10 years ago. While I don't agree with 'hazing' or being generally disrespectful to new members, simply based on their 'new' status; sometimes people need to face reality. And sometimes there is no easy, or particularly 'nice' way to tell a 14 year old that he doesn't have the skills, investment capital, or experience needed to create a browser-based 3D MMORPG with port and starboard attachments.
 

Sybok

Member
@Liam Jacobs, 100% agree with you on that one. There is no room for friendly banter on sites like that. It is even very much frowned upon.


this is not absolutely correct, you teach people to fish when they are taking the initiative, but in meny cases, my cases for that matter, i dont want to be tought, i want to be aware of why this and that, in other words providing code that i can observe then guiding people thru a tutorial when they have alredy leveled up to 30lv. dont be fanatical with your methods, be original and see what the person needs rather then being a hindrance.
Understood.

It’s just my personal preference to help people who want to be better programmers and have better understanding of what they are trying to achieve. I’m not here to provide free full code solutions to those who click their fingers. I’ll answer posts in the recruitment section if that ever becomes my source of interest.

Everyone is different. Some people do it to teach, some for the popularity factor, and others just simply for the ‘likes’.
 

Homunculus

Member
I have to agree that the forum has had, and still has, some clearly toxic posts and behaviors that really should not belong to a game development community, but as a lot of other people said, the moderation team is doing a great job keeping that under control, and it's something to be expected to a certain extent when a community hosts a fair amount of users.

The Q&A section though is a bloodbath sometimes, and I can totally relate to what RefresherTowel said on this.
I'm trying to take advantage of unexpected free time the current lockdown is causing to dive back into some old GM projects and at the same time give something back to the community that helped me so much in the past (and by helping others I also learn a lot as well), but sometimes it is really difficult to keep your head leveled when some sensibilities are so easily hurt by simply pointing out what you think is a problem.
This is especially noticeable when in reply to a poorly formulated question or problem, you just point that out instead of providing a solution, which may take an awful lot of time otherwise due to the premise not being clear. Not being able to convey the problem you are trying to solve is understandable, but refusing to acknowledge that others may not know what you are talking about unless you put in some effort to provide that information, and maybe even getting angry about it, is incredibly frustrating to see.

While I try to always post something useful even in the situations described above, I am definitely guilty of making some snark remarks from time to time, but we can't see this as a one sided problem only, both parties in the exchange have their own responsibilties. Being a novice or a long time member of the community has nothing to do with this, it's simply having the right attitude. Just as I try my best to understand your point of view, I also expect a little effort from you to understand mine.

@Misu I definitely notice you and other users even when they are not involved in the conversation :rolleyes: (by the way, you're not ONE OF US anymore! What happened?)
 
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Sabnock

Member
TBH I think this thread has been quite cathartic, allowed us to show our feelings on the current state of the forums and has blown fresh air into our lungs. Hopefully we can all take something positive away from it and the forums will be all the better for it. :D
 
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Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
However this sort of left me hanging because now with much more serious type of users around here, my kind of social behaviour does not seem welcome.
If I were to be off topic on the forum, it seems to be completely ignored or lack appreciation.
Okay, so, fun and games and shenanigans are fine and we welcome a bit of humour and hi-jinks... But (there's always a but!) it has to be in the correct place and not distract a topic from it's purpose. I mean, we have the off-topic forum and the status updates, and those are pretty much designed for people to be a bit silly, and a good fun post in a game topic, or in a community topic is fine. Programming and tech support are a bit different though, as people take their issues very seriously and posting something you find funny in such a topic can have unforseen consequences as the OP may take it all wrong... so, yeah, I don't mind people funning around (and god knows the staff do it often it enough!) as long as it's appropriate and not just s**t-posting for the sake of it.

@Misu Thanks for the heads up. I too am known for my fun loving shenanigans. I’ll be sure to heed your advice and keep my commentary as sterile as possible.
Please don't! A community thrives on characters and individuals, and I'd hate people to think they have to be a robot when they reply. I would much rather people be natural and be themselves around here than have people thinking this was a police-state where their every word is being watched for any sign of dissent from the norm! :)
 

Sybok

Member
Please don't! A community thrives on characters and individuals, and I'd hate people to think they have to be a robot when they reply. I would much rather people be natural and be themselves around here than have people thinking this was a police-state where their every word is being watched for any sign of dissent from the norm! :)
Don’t stress. Shenanigans is my middle name.

The feel of the forum to me is relaxed and fun loving. Definitely doesn’t feel like a police-state to me.
 

zendraw

Member
@Liam Jacobs, 100% agree with you on that one. There is no room for friendly banter on sites like that. It is even very much frowned upon.




Understood.

It’s just my personal preference to help people who want to be better programmers and have better understanding of what they are trying to achieve. I’m not here to provide free full code solutions to those who click their fingers. I’ll answer posts in the recruitment section if that ever becomes my source of interest.

Everyone is different. Some people do it to teach, some for the popularity factor, and others just simply for the ‘likes’.
i think you throw the term better programmer very lightly, programming is about knowing your tools and use them efficiently, what else is there? if you are intelligent you will use them well if your not you will not.

and thats all you can help with people, telling them how the tools function and how to use them better. you cant teach intelligence to people
 
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