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A thread about balanced loot drop tables

gkri

Member
It would be interesting to gather here resources, links, tips and veteran's experience about *balanced loot drop tables for our games.

*balanced : preferably not pay to win mechanics and/or loot boxes

It might sound very generic without a specific game in mind, but the gathered knowledge might be a basis to get started...

What could be the odds to loot a common item vs get nothing? 50%-50%?
What makes an item uncommon? 20%?
Rare? 1%?
Legendary? 0.01%?
(just random numbers)

So... If you know any good article for balanced loot drop tables, you could post/link it here. Have you already implemented it? Share you tips, workflows and experience here...

Resource links:
Modern Loot Table Concepts
 
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Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
For Shattered World, I had a stated goal to avoid short-term RNG imbalance (i.e. an item with a 0.01 drop rate might not show up in 300 drops, then you get two in a row), and my solution for this was pretty simple:
  • There's three main tiers of drops: currency, standard equipment, and rare equipment.
  • There's a global counter that's incremented every time a drop is generated.
  • If the counter reaches 100, you're guaranteed a rare equipment. Any other multiple of 10 gives you standard equipment. Any other number gives you currency... but there's a 10% chance currency drops get converted to standard equipment and a 1% chance it gets converted to rare equipment.
So basically, there's a nominal 10% chance for standard equipment, a 1% chance for rare equipment, and a 89% chance for currency... but you're guaranteed 9 standard equipment and 1 rare equipment in 100 random rolls, no matter the RNG.


Things get a lot easier to balance maths-wise in Shattered World because of how the item system works: items are categorized in different types (e.g. swords, guns, capes, armor, emblems) and each type has different tiers from 1 to 40, where subsequent tiers are objectively better. (Some rarer item types don't have every tier, and generating an item from an unused tier rounds it to the nearest existing tier; there are also "null" item types for items that will never be in the random loot tables, like special shoes that reduces movement by 99 which are equipped on enemy archers to prevent them from chasing you down) The loot tier corresponds to the difficulty of enemies, and is bumped up 1-3 levels over the course of each story chapter. "Standard equipment" means you get gear of the current loot tier, "Rare equipment" means you get something 3 tiers higher. So both of these basically are simple table lookups, the only thing that's randomized is the item type.

(Currency items are a bit different, but the gist of it is that you either get a money bonus, an EXP bonus, or random "vendor trash" items that can be sold and has no other use; all of these are tiered the same way as items are, and functionally it's handled by another loot table lookup)


Shattered World is pretty much a Disgaea clone, and there's a bunch of stuff I omitted: most importantly the items don't have a "rarity" stat (every item of the same type is identical). But Disgaea is a good example on how more layers of randomness quickly adds depth: items have a "rarity" stat which is uniformly distributed, and which adds a flat multiplier to all stats (and at certain thresholds the item gets elevated to "Rare" or "Legendary" status which confers additional benefits like higher level caps when upgraded), and also items have random Innocents populating them which adds stat bonuses. Having more layers like this creates more variety in your loot distribution, and it both helps smooth things out (items are more likely to be "average" the more independent parameters are added) and make the extremes more rare (all random parameters must ALL point in the same direction for the ultimate min-maxed stats)
 

gkri

Member
@Yal : I do not know how I missed your post. I am sorry for not reacting immediately!!! And thank you for your contribution!!! Very interesting read!

I found this very interesting post on game development of stack exchange :
Modern Loot Table Concepts
 

tetris_mess

Member
When it is the same old process, how about new processes, though...I like all the information in that article you posted @gkri, because it mentions the structure that makes immersive action available to the player.

I just want to mention a few key factors in this element of these games mechanics we are considered, however(looting systems), because there is so much more to consider in terms of designing one of the feature presentations of the experience of a game environment in this style of a game(that namely has a looting system...where the experiences this level of game mechanics is providing can offer an experience more along the lines of understanding deeper levels of complexity in a way that is entertaining and captivating rather than just baiting someone to continue being addicted to finding loot and gathering experience...which is also a cool concept). What I'm saying though is, is that higher levels of complexity in a game environment that are achieved at a deeper level of understanding of the user having a gaming experience, rather than cliched notions of a what a gamer is and what has become a very routine experience in playing addictive games(unless that is the group of people you are defining who you are absolutely targeting as a source of potential earnings for your company that you understand as your prospective income), also convert into potential sales and thus a higher and not lower return for the work done on a project when someone else is offering another person more than an addictive experience while also catering to people with poor taste(the people who just like getting addicted to things are, of course, the people with poor taste who I'm referring to).

People definitely see profits with one marketing approach that gets people addicted to a game, but really, I'm someone who plans on lining my pockets fully, and this is a huge building concept in game design concepts that I'm revealing, when it was always really important to consider what solutions solve which problems in this matter of a looting environment or any reward system for that matter. It is the truth that the developers who wisely invest time and money in projects did so while also wisely supplying those who invested their resources with less risk in the costs over profit arena(even if it was an indie release with one developer on the project who saw a way to just get people addicted to a game and they are the only investor they need to lookout for). My main point is that there are definitely people who turn out to be the ones who are more satisfied in the longrun and at the end of the initial distribution of a product because they know their market and all the people they are targeting to make profits off of in a situation they wish to make money out of. They are the people who are more likely to see that long tail of income that follows them well into the future(as well as a possible opportunities for franchises or a new start up companies...people who don't just remain indie developers ultimately...people who play their cards right).

So let's consider more than just looting systems that hook players:

  • There are hidden layers in the mechanics of any situation that seem random or purposefully engineered into any structure that holds the weight of its environment in the multiplier of the reward system that is the main element of these mechanics at these hidden layers (it's a generic concept that applies to specific situations that are driving us in making any income as developers where we are giving people what they want because we are satisfying a need they have builtup over time)
  • We appreciate those hidden layers of their experiences and the time that adds up to them being made accessible to us in their design of a person
  • Layers of complexity can add to deeper levels of complexity, and an understanding of complexity, or they can detract from the purpose of any of these layers that then seem random where there are only higher levels of complexity without the incentive of exploring a deeper level of complexity when someone isn't learning about those layers in a learning environment that was setup for them to do so(this is a principle that can be easily applied to a looting system when supplying someone an environment to integrate a given set of principles where they can then choose to derive an intended result from them)
  • Layers of complexity project someone into the range of an experience where someone is finding these hidden layers while being rewarded more effectively for exploring those layers and what goes on in them(being enriched for learning or struggling for not learning...while surviving or dying in each case that I just presented...which gives someone different chances of thriving in that environment depending on when they are learning or not...and that can affect our looting systems and control how we change conditions that a player needs to learn to adapt in...giving them so many chances to learn before that affects the reward system)
  • The decisions a player is forced to make are guiding them into the experience that is rewarding them or punishing them and this structures how we know they will behave in a learning environment and we know what to do when someone isn't engaged in that environment when we know how to balance the rewards
  • Consumers need the proper incentive to buy and continue using a product or service in the future(in our case buying and playing a game in the future)
  • Essentially this whole concept falls under the study of behavior incidentally
  • It is called behaviorism but we are talking about a world of behavior and we are looking at this concept from the perspective that we choose to create(that someone is left to find on their own in our controlled environment that we filter chaos and order in when we decide the level of function required by the player and what the consequences are just as well for performing below that level when we make a situation more or less predictable to bring pleasure or pain to the player that is expected or unexpected) and a system that is rewarding or punishing someone in a game that they are learning more about or they aren't engaging in fully...where the level of the commitment of the player is always being noted
  • There are people who we can choose to speak to through these hidden layers as well, because we know the people who will find us at those layers where we hide hidden messages for them
  • We guide those people into their decisions knowing how they make up their minds while we offer them the products and services they need
Take some of the biggest most successful games for example, and the experiences in those game environments. Finan fantasy has so much complexity, but no one gets lost in it, it is an addictive experience, and there is also always constantly more to come from the producers in the future. It is a production environment with so many people who deserve so much credit in the gaming communities they have formed.

Also important to note is when self-preservation mode kicks in because of a blow to the ego. Someone who is challenging their intellect responds, or a person behaves destructively(and I claim that it is better for them to channel that destructive energy in a game). These properties of human behavior correspond with the concept of loot. A player can engage in very powerful and immersive experiences if the settings in the game world are at correct levels, where a deep level of intimacy and sensitity is commanding the players attention while they are collecting items and money, and there are the two types of consumers I've described in this post. There is a wider market for both of these types of players and they spend the most money on games. This information is based on my own research of the market. The worldview in my approach was there are people who just play games to get addicted to them and there are people who like addictive experiences while they are also looking for more of a challenge. It's a measurable source of information. There are people who just get addicted to games, and they are easily sucked dry of all the money in their bank accounts, while other buyers are more careful, being as easily sold(and they tend to be much better supporters), where these two types of gamers present us with two different but clear sources of income.

In the end, fundamentally a player wants to feel control, but they also want to have to earn it, but there are two types of consumers who play games for two different reasons, in a single type of gamer and two classes of players that is divided into the two sections that make up a single group of gamers where one inherits the same behavior from another class, making it a subclass, expanding on the original behavior of most people, who are all falling into different categories of gamers who like different types of games.

I hope everyone who can is following these patterns. Fundamentally, there are the people that enjoy ways to learn how to cheat the system, and there are the people learning about how the system works, and how to work best in the confines of the system. Some people play games for an escape from real life, and some play games because they see the challenge in it(and both spend money on games). There are different scenarios that match different profiles of different groups, so we need a way to sort them into different categories that express the values of different profiles in different scenarios. Being able to do this makes us more capable in making marketing decisions, that guide every other creative decision we will be making.

Anyways, haha, the moral value we can account for here is that everyone who has money gives us developers a single way to make it from them. I have to say LOLZ, and mark for my readers that I'm not just trolling the internet. These are real, actual, LOLZ, and all the base belongs to whoever owned it in the firstplace, who trades fairly, and values honesty, in an exchange we were all a part of to begin with. I know it may seem unrelated, but this is one step for mankind, and another step for computer security and better games being sold world wide and on the internet.

Shoutout to anyone trolling the internet for loot...hackers...you aren't wanted on this planet...get a job you lazy hacks....

Keep making games fellow developers...sell games and not street drugs everyone...

It's not unrelated to point out how people are or aren't guided by restriction. People are developing competing levels of intelligence or higher levels of intelligence and they go looting in whatever world they are exploring, and we might as well take these useful concepts and apply those principles to making money off of all those people interested in playing a game we developed, expressing ourselves in how we build and develop a looting system for them all to play with in our games. I personally like featuring myself in the game, having control of the function. It's...more than just satisfying...it's real source control measures being taken every step we are making real life decisions and setting up an environment for people to do so in our games, where the source is actually controlled in real life and in simulated experiences.
 

gkri

Member
Thank you for your input tetris_mess! I see a huge amount of valuable info! Every one interest about the topic should bookmark it for future references/use!
 
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