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A game without healing

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DannyBoy

Guest
So, I've been thinking a lot about the game I want to make... honestly I've been thinking about it for about a year.

One thing that has been constant is that I want to create a sort of dungeon crawling game where you feel the scars of every battle, where every conflict weakens you as you progress. My original idea was to have a system where, whenever you rest to heal yourself, your maximum HP was lessened. But the more I've been thinking about, the more I've wondered ... wouldn't it be better to have a game where you can't heal at all? Its a simpler system, and I feel like it would be a lot less easy to cheat by simply never resting or resting only when you're about to die.

So the question is, do you guys think it would be possible to create a good game using this system? If so, what do I need to keep in mind? Should there be a lot of save points to avoid frustration, or much fewer so that players can't save-scum as easily?
 
G

Guest User

Guest
Should there be a lot of save points to avoid frustration, or much fewer so that players can't save-scum as easily?
more than likely the frequency of save points should be determined by necessity rather than the potential for abuse.

saving is more a quality-of-life thing than an actual gameplay element or integral part of the difficulty, at least in most modern games. if that's not the case here, though, then i imagine it depends on what you want out of your save system.
 
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Gerald Tyler

Guest
Think of hit points as "Amount of mistakes the player is allowed to make" and make sure that everything can be dodged and all damage avoided. So any thing that hits the player should be the player's own fault, sort of like Dark Souls.

If you go with a living character, you may want to really put some effort into the art and animation to reflect the character's weakened state. Limping, missing limbs, bandages wrapped around various body parts, etc. Scars are fine, but maybe more than just that. Then maybe some mechanical changes, such as taking longer to prepare a heavy attack, longer to recover from actions, longer mana regen time, longer cooldowns, slower movement speed (Thus harder to avoid attacks) to reflect the accumulated damage as well.

I wouldn't go with the bed thing though, it's very non intuitive that resting would make you weaker. A Rogue type game would be best for the mechanic...and possibly one where you're an android who "Woke up" in a post apocalyptic future. As a robot in a world without robots, it makes sense to the story why any damage winds up being permanent because nobody knows how to fix you. You then start with a rather large pool of armor/health and the goal is really to see how far you can get in your mission.
A compromise may be similar to what the Wolfenstein game (Xbox) did, where your health was 1-100, and any damage would heal up to the next 25. So if you were damaged to 80 health you were good and would eventually regen up to 100 again. But if your health dropped to 70, it would only regen to 75. Then you simply don't include healing items. This means that the player can afford to make more mistakes, while still maintaining the tension and aversion to damage. Opposed to Halo's "Energy Shield" system which similarly encourages players to take brief pauses from combat to regenerate, but offers no lasting penalty.

This of course means that you're not empowered and the story should reflect that. Again they need to either be able to avoid damage, or avoid the combat (Stealth mechanics).

I will offer a word of caution however, one of the big reasons why games moved away from "Health" to "Regeneration" mechanics was because the ladder are easier for the developer. As the designer, if I know the player will always be at full strength when they reach a room, I can design a good encounter based around that. If you do perma damage, then everybody who reaches that room has different health and abilities/weapons, so it's much harder to design an enjoyable encounter.

Yet another alternative (Lol) would be having it set up so that time doesn't pass in the dungeon, but the Only way for the player to heal is to sleep in bed, while limiting the number of in game days the player can play. The player still needs to avoid damage as much as possible, because in order to obtain the strongest possible end game state, they'll need to have longer grind sessions between resting. Again still keeps a decent stress level during combat encounters, but it's not brutally punishing. Days counting down will serve to increase the player's tension as the final showdown nears. So similar to many roguelikes, you need to make the most of the earlier levels to make it easier on the later ones.

ANOTHER (Okay last one, because I could seriously do this for a while) alternative would be say the player has 100 health. Any time they go "Critical" (Less than say 25% health) their max health is reduced. So they can still go to bed and heal up, and the long term ramifications are felt. As you're more and more scared, the tension increases to where you get to the point where even a single enemy attack will kill you, and then the tension just sky rockets. The victories feel amazing, and you know that defeat is just around the corner.

So yeah, you can absolutely make a fun game with limited health mechanics. Don't restrict yourself to what's been done before.
 
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Thunder Lion

Guest
I think maybe a super slow healing with stat nerfs, unless the player manages to find an adrenaline potion to you know fake it till u make it, or die as soon as your drugs wear off
 
Is it for realism's sake? If so, healing during battle or in very short time by using potions / health pack is of course not realistic, but taking a few days, weeks or months to heal an injury (depending on severity) could work. What genre of game / what kind of mechanics do you plan to use?

I was just thinking this week about making a JRPG in which the player have to spend such time to heal injuries. He can mend small wound on the go to avoid bleeding to death but would have to spend much more time to heal fully by the use special skills or by asking a doctor NPC to heal him.

Be careful of save-points if there is no way to heal : you don't want a player to save his game almost dead and not be able to overcome what's coming. Being forced to start back to the beginning of the game is rarely fun for the modern player.

Good luck!
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
I think the issue will be that at full health, you will not care that much about getting damage, untill you reach low health (even if just subconsciously).

Perhaps you would need to implement mechanics to make the first few hit points really count.
 
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Thunder Lion

Guest
I think the issue will be that at full health, you will not care that much about getting damage, untill you reach low health (even if just subconsciously).

Perhaps you would need to implement mechanics to make the first few hit points really count.
Maybe implement a phase condition, e.g. new trauma causes X effects for N time frame without furthered trauma,
 
One way to do it might be to give the player a fairly normal health system, but then also give them a "damage" variable.

Everything that decreases the player's health would also increase Damage by a corresponding amount, and while the player's health could be restored over time, damage could never be depleted. So let's just say that the player has 100 health. If it reaches 0, you die. Simple enough. Damage, on the other hand, you can technically sustain an infinite amount of, but it'll start taking a toll on your character's abilities over time. here are some ideas:

You can accumulate 100 damage and be just fine, as long as your health holds up. For every 100 damage you take after that, though, your health regen rate is decreased by 10%; so by the time you get to 1100 damage, you'll be completely unable to regenerate health.

When you exceed 500 damage, you'll become increasingly susceptible to flinch/stun and knockback, maxing out at triple susceptibility by 1000 damage.

When you pass 1200 damage, you'll start losing an additional 1 health per minute for every 50 extra damage, maxing out at 60 per minute, or 1 HP per second. As long as you obtain enough healing items, you'll be able to carry on, but the point is that you'll be increasingly reliant on using up healing items, regardless of how well you're managing to avoid additional damage.

After you accumulate 10,000 damage, you reach critical weakness. For every 100 extra damage you receive, you'll become 2% more susceptible to additional damage and attacks that hit you will subtract 2% more health. That might not sound too bad, and it may seem to come late, but that's because unlike the other debuffs, this one has no cap and will quickly turn into an inescapable death spiral. Attacks will become increasingly deadly, and the rate at which it happens will itself increase, until you eventually reach a point where literally anything can kill you in a single hit.


Those damage thresholds, of course, are based on a completely arbitrary idea of how long runs are supposed to last; you could make them way higher or way lower to fit your needs.
 

Niels

Member
On second thought I think the concept of your character getting weaker with every hit and no way to regain health won't give a very good gaming experience.
 

sylvain_l

Member
On second thought I think the concept of your character getting weaker with every hit and no way to regain health won't give a very good gaming experience.
yes and no.

in rogue-like game where you crawl dungeon and each deeper level is a bit harder, you know the end: you die. That doesn't prevent the fun, the thrills of trying to survive as long as you can, trying to get deeper in the dungeon, to discover what's next, there is the growing tension of the next bigger encounter etc....

Trying to build on a more realistic health system is possible, as long as you keep for example the danger at same absolute difficulty , and that's the slow weakening of the player that make the challenge and difficulty grows.
It's going to be more niche game and will be challenging to design and find the right balance to make the game fun, a fair challenge and not feel like it's just plain dumb unfair. And you'll have to find a "motivator" for players to go on (in rogue-like, you have new harder monsters in deeper levels but also the chance to get more powerfull weapons, armors, spells, potions, etc...)
 

Niels

Member
yes and no.

in rogue-like game where you crawl dungeon and each deeper level is a bit harder, you know the end: you die. That doesn't prevent the fun, the thrills of trying to survive as long as you can, trying to get deeper in the dungeon, to discover what's next, there is the growing tension of the next bigger encounter etc....

Trying to build on a more realistic health system is possible, as long as you keep for example the danger at same absolute difficulty , and that's the slow weakening of the player that make the challenge and difficulty grows.
It's going to be more niche game and will be challenging to design and find the right balance to make the game fun, a fair challenge and not feel like it's just plain dumb unfair. And you'll have to find a "motivator" for players to go on (in rogue-like, you have new harder monsters in deeper levels but also the chance to get more powerfull weapons, armors, spells, potions, etc...)
Not a expert at roguelikes, but wasn't the fun of games like binding of isaac, enter the gungeon, and rogue legacy to get stronger during the run instead of getting weaker?
 

sylvain_l

Member
Not a expert at roguelikes, but wasn't the fun of games like binding of isaac, enter the gungeon, and rogue legacy to get stronger during the run instead of getting weaker?
getting less health (or max health) doesn't mean you don't grow on other aspect like more/better gears, knowledge, etc... to counter balance a part of that. Also less health makes the thrill of surviving more tense at each battle.

nothing impossible the 3 paths are valid if done well :
1) casual mode:
doubling your damage could be also too much of an improvement if the monsters were kept at the low level they where, in fact it would kill the thrill and tense. Of cause some could still find fun in the feeling of being such more powerfull and in the easy kills and butchery without risk of dying.
2) standart mode:
growing monsters stats at the same rate player improve his character allow to keep the challenge at the same pace.
3) harcore mode:
and the survivalist mode is when you double players attack while the monster triple their own.

I think each one build a different kind of experience and will appeal to a different audience.

also as someone suggest, the game could also be crawling dungeon but with less fighting and more stealth part or any other non finghting alternative (per example "a la" undertale). Taking the finghting could always be possible but a risky path as your health is a very non renewable ressource.
 

onjai_x3

Member
Well, I don't see a problem if it's in a game that can be completed in a couple of minutes. Any longer than that, though, and you'll probaly have to think of some other mechanics to balance out that handicap.

But it *can* be done to make an interesting game.
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
On second thought I think the concept of your character getting weaker with every hit and no way to regain health won't give a very good gaming experience.
Really good point.

What you COULD do instead if you really want to illustrate lasting damage, could be to add injury effects that are both good and bad - from the top of my head, let's say your arm can get cut off, and while you can't equip an item there anymore, you can now shoot blood from it to cause enemies to bleed (at the cost of some of your own hitpoints). Or maybe your eye got damaged so now you see everything in black and white, but you can also see hidden items now because they're more shiny. Stuff like that.

The hard part would be to make these lasting injuries not feel too arbitrary either - you will want your scars to be memories of some major cataclysmic event, not something you got because you didn't see the goomba hiding around a corner in floor 29½ while you were just messing around in your inventory. Maybe only bosses could scar you, or maybe you would get random injuries in cutscenes at set intervals. Maybe you're of some creepy blood religion and can hurt yourself intentionally at special altars to curry the favors of your deity? Or maybe you can revive a set amount of times per run, but each time you revive you get a new wound. One idea is that you can revive once per floor of the dungeon (using your willpower to get up even after taking massive damage - but taking massive damage AGAIN before you've had a chance to rest up and heal would be fatal) and reviving gives you a wound, and it also causes a massive shockwave to clean up nearby enemies so you get a chance to get used to the new controls before you keep pushing on.
 

GMWolf

aka fel666
A common mechanic is to give the player a buff when he gets to low health. The key is to make the effect subtle enough that he doesnt notice. That way, he stays alive longer with low health, making it seam like he just made it.
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
A common mechanic is to give the player a buff when he gets to low health. The key is to make the effect subtle enough that he doesnt notice. That way, he stays alive longer with low health, making it seam like he just made it.
Or just don't show the actual health value - you could have the last 30% of your healthbar actually be 70% of your health, so you lose a lot of health early on if you make mistakes, but you can scrape along feeling like you survived by the skin of your teeth for a long time even if you have the same average damage-per-time ratio.

Could also be worth quoting the Dungeons & Dragons rules: your hitpoints represents a combination of your physical and mental health, will to live, and luck. Thinking about hitpoints as just an abstract representation of your health just opens a whole can of worms... blood levels, organ structural integrity, cellular reproduction speed, parasites... and no matter how you try to simulate it, you just can't represent that with a single integer value without losing some fidelity. And in this case, going for realism over fun will just make your system needlessly convoluted with no real gains.
 
S

signal

Guest
Aren't all games that allow healing ultimately made up of games-within-the-game that don't allow healing?

A 2 person-fighting game.. your health doesn't regenerate during the duration of a match. You can look at each match as a game without healing.

A side-scrolling platformer like Mario.. if you die on a level before getting a mushroom, you essentially played a game that didn't allow healing :p

Look at all the one-life mobile games on the market today.. if you mess up, you start over. The key with these games is to give the player the feeling like they could progress further with practice.

I don't play a lot of games these days, so maybe I'm missing something.. but seems like there's already plenty of games using this 1-life idea.

It just comes down to the experience you personally want to create for the player, right? There's nothing wrong with either approach.
 

NicoFIDI

Member
Well about that...
I recently made a dungeon crawler where every move takes "health".
And you have 3 healing methods.

1- Magic (scrolls that heal 100)
2- Bread (heals form 50 to 60)
3- A magic circle (takes 50 from your max hp, and heals to your new max)

And the third it's one of the things that makes the game more interesting.
Because it's not controlled by the player how often it appears, it's the best heal, and if you use one too early then you "waste" all your current health.
But if you don't use it, then you might not find other in time.

So I confirm it works (at least for me).
Yet, you have to make sure that this mechanic works in harmony with the rest of the game.
Make the game so unforgiving with your health MUST be because you can avoid the damage.
If you make unavoidable damage then allow the players to recover that health.
 

Rob

Member
So, I've been thinking a lot about the game I want to make... honestly I've been thinking about it for about a year.

One thing that has been constant is that I want to create a sort of dungeon crawling game where you feel the scars of every battle, where every conflict weakens you as you progress. My original idea was to have a system where, whenever you rest to heal yourself, your maximum HP was lessened. But the more I've been thinking about, the more I've wondered ... wouldn't it be better to have a game where you can't heal at all? Its a simpler system, and I feel like it would be a lot less easy to cheat by simply never resting or resting only when you're about to die.

So the question is, do you guys think it would be possible to create a good game using this system? If so, what do I need to keep in mind? Should there be a lot of save points to avoid frustration, or much fewer so that players can't save-scum as easily?
You can have a game without healing, of course. It would change how the player would play the game because they might see encounters with monsters as being a drain rather than a way to gain xp and level up. You just have to balance it with ways to make the player want to advance through the dungeon. Do they get a higher score the longer they go? Will they get better loot which helps them take less damage? Do they get to pass things on to the "next generation" so each play through becomes easier and adds more progression for the player?

If I were playing a game without healing and I knew encounters were random, I might be encouraged to save scum as I knew I could replay the same fight 10 times and maybe come out of it unscathed on the 10th time. For this reason I would disallow save scumming.
 
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DannyBoy

Guest
Hello everyone, thank you so much for all of your thoughts and feedback on this idea, I was worried no one was going to reply.

To settle some things though, I believe I should clarify what I meant earlier. I wasn't thinking of "dungeon crawler" in the RPG sense, more of in a Zelda-like sense. (i.e. an action adventure game that involves exploring and fighting in dungeons). Not that that matters anymore, because now I'm thinking the game might be better of as a metroid-esque action-platformer. I'm also not particularly interested in a system without healing because of realism (the game is about a journey into the Underworld, so realism is already out the window), I'm more interested in it because I want a game where the player gets weaker as they go through the game instead getting more and more stronger. I want the player to feel the toll of the journey and the dread of going deeper and deeper into the hole. So my solution was no healing, every hit you took was permanent. Its also a fairly simple and easy system for a player to understand.

As to some of your ideas: an injury mechanic might work instead, but I don't know if there's a way to do that organically through gameplay in a metroid-like. I like some of Gerald Tyler's ideas, namely that one starts losing maximum health after getting to 25% health. Of course, this system is susceptible to save-scumming: anytime someone loses some of their maximum health they may simply decide to reload to the last check-point instead of continuing on. Soopa Derpcat's system of a seperate damage meter also sounds pretty cool, but do you think that maybe it could be too complicated for a player to understand?

One alternative idea that I've recently come up with is to give the player an extremely small amount of an item that can heal a portion of HP (Water) at the beginning of the game, and then have it so that they can't get anymore. This is more resource-managing than I would like, but it wouldn't feel as punishing as a game with no healing would be, and in the end the player would still likely end up steadily weaker as they go through the game. What do you guys think?

Thanks again for the feedback guys, you're all awesome!
 

NicoFIDI

Member
No mather how you adress the "take things away" mechanic i whould like to see it
Yet i can sugest that if you want a scripted game then you can make the player choose between one of all his benefits like "being able to heal" at the end of each stage, and lose it to open the next stage door as some kind of payment, for the sake of progress.
 
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