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Discussion A case of stolen Animations? Or just a salty artist?

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only because rotoscoping doesn't take much time => Making the animation would be 40%.
Ah, yeah, you did. That ruins my joke, I guess. X'D
I'm also not trying to condemn the App developer. At the moment, It is unclear whether he merely copiedthe animation style, or flat out rotoscoped the animations.
"I'm not trying to condemn the thesis paper's writer. It's unclear whether they merely retyped this article I found on Wikipedia, or flat out copy and pasted from the site." When a unique animation is a 1-1 copy of another one, so close that it's impossible to tell whether it was rotoscoped or not, it's still theft, isn't it? Especially for a cheap lift job like this. There's "being inspired by a style," and then there's "completely copying an animation frame by frame."

They're two different things. Bouncing bird animations inspired by his are fine, and expected. Copying an animation frame by frame is just profiting off another artist's work, no matter how it's done.
 
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GMWolf

aka fel666
"I'm not trying to condemn the thesis paper's writer. It's unclear whether they merely retyped this article I found on Wikipedia, or flat out copy and pasted from the site." When a unique animation is a 1-1 copy of another one, so close that it's impossible to tell whether it was rotoscoped or not, it's still theft, isn't it? Especially for a cheap lift job like this. There's "being inspired by a style," and then there's "completely copying an animation frame by frame."

They're two different things. Bouncing bird animations inspired by his are fine, and expected. Copying an animation frame by frame is just profiting off another artist's work, no matter how it's done.
don't misunderstand. Personally, i'm offended by the developer. Its clear to me that its a direct lift. A rip off keke's work.
But in these forums I try to be as impartial as possible when it comes to these topics.

Only when it comes to code (and GMS2's design decisions) will i affirm my (often strong) opinions.
 
I understand that you're offended by the developer and think it's a πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty thing they did, which is why I'm confused about why you're "not trying to condemn them," at the end of explaining why what they did was πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty for the last few posts, hahah! Are you saying that while it was a πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty thing they did, you're not sure whether or not it's illegal, because you don't know whether or not they traced or just painstakingly copied frame by frame, or?

I'm not sure completely sure, either. I'm arguing that the developers are thieves, not that our laws our good enough to catch them. I think there's a good chance it's illegal whether or not they rotoscoped, because it's such a blatant copy, but I haven't read anything about similar cases. A lot of the replies on Twitter are saying "here's a lawyer, he's handled cases similar to this," so I imagine they've seen evidence that it's illegal, but who knows, I guess.

Anyway, in related news: The πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty game's rating dropped from almost a perfect 5/5 down to a 3/5, and I'm sure it'll continue falling, unless it gets taken off the store first. The game's main facebook page has been shut down. Thousands of people have banded in support of the wronged artist, and against the dirty thieves. It seems like no matter what the court of law says, the court of public opinion has reached a verdict. ;D
 
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GMWolf

aka fel666
I understand that you're offended by the developer and think it's a ****ty thing they did, which is why I'm confused about why you're "not trying to condemn them," at the end of explaining why what they did was ****ty for the last few posts, hahah! Are you saying that while it was a ****ty thing they did, you're not sure whether or not it's illegal, because you don't know whether or not they traced or just painstakingly copied frame by frame, or?

I'm not sure completely sure, either. I'm arguing that the developers are thieves, not that our laws our good enough to catch them. I think there's a good chance it's illegal whether or not they rotoscoped, because it's such a blatant copy, but I haven't read anything about similar cases. A lot of the replies on Twitter are saying "here's a lawyer, he's handled cases similar to this," so I imagine they've seen evidence that it's illegal, but who knows, I guess.

Anyway, in related news: The ****ty game's rating dropped from almost a perfect 5/5 down to a 3/5, and I'm sure it'll continue falling, unless it gets taken off the store first. The game's main facebook page has been shut down. Thousands of people have banded in support of the wronged artist, and against the dirty thieves. It seems like no matter what the court of law says, the court of public opinion has reached a verdict. ;D
I'm a little uneasy about this.
Yes a believe that the developers stole the art.

That being said, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. This seems like their first game and I wouldn't want it to be taken down unwarented.
They deserve a bit of reflection. I wouldn't want it to be taken down after a witch hunt.

The danger is real. We wouldn't want a YouTube situation in our hands.
Not talking about the adpocalypses, but about when a lot of fair use videos where targeted.
 
That being said, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. This seems like their first game and I wouldn't want it to be taken down unwarented.
They deserve a bit of reflection. I wouldn't want it to be taken down after a witch hunt.
Rest easy. I would say the same thing if they were reasonable people. The artist reached out to them first about this, and they blocked him. They're not just good (misguided) people who made a mistake.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I know they stole the art, but I wouldn't want their game taken down unwarranted." Isn't stolen art a good reason to take a game down? Even if this was technically legal (I don't think so, but who knows), being legal and being ethical are two completely different things. It's not hard to avoid this kind of backlash. Just don't steal from other people. If your argument *is* "it might not be illegal, so they shouldn't be taking this abuse!", then the answer is obviously "review bombing a game for behavior you find πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty isn't illegal either, so what's your worry here?" ;)

I guess you're "lawful good?" The internet is on the "chaotic" side of the spectrum though, hahah.

This is a completely different discussion, though, about laws vs. ethics...like I said in my last post, ethics seems to have won. We need a judge to tell us whether or not the law won as well, hahah.
 
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MilesThatch

Member
Well if KeKe decided it was a good idea to encourage review bombing (which he did in his tweets) then I guess he got what he deserved, he's a better drama queen than anything else. Eye for an Eye

Can we stop claiming that the developer has done something illegal like you've been advised by a lawyer? I've asked my father, who has studied multimedia copyright subject in Ryerson university as a part of his phd. He's a producer and a script writer with a good three decades in the field. So I'd say he's pretty qualified to know what constitutes an illegal copyright infringement.

You can't copyright a style.
You can't copyright a motion/movement.
You can't copyright a concept like "a dancing bird".

That's pretty much covers all of your arguments you've provided thus far on whether this is an illegal act.

Is it immoral? Heck, he did a great job animating it better than the original so I'd say he deserves to keep it. All that talk about it being a "rough" is technicality and excuses to make the argument seem valid. We're not talking about the artists overall skills (2 years later mind you) It's an animation from 2016... it's not a rough at this point.. It looks the way it looks - crappy. It may have been a choice but polish a turd, it's still a turd.

from what I see. What separates thieves from artists is how much of your own work you put into the art from the reference. And It's pretty clear cut, without a bias of a follower, the game dev has more than enough variance and additions to count it as his own.
 
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MilesThatch

Member
The claim here is that there was a clear lift.
Rotoscoping.
Clear or not clear is up to debate. Keke Could have synced the animation to make a point.
IF it was a blatant lift then the bird would have looked exactly the same. Lifting a motion is not illegal, rotoscoping means your destination asset will literally look identical. Rotoscoping can only take you so far.



This does not look identical. You add enough of your own and the artwork becomes your own. Rotoscoped or not.
 
I'll write you a good post later, Miles. I think I understand where your confusion is coming from. I'll explain why this isn't fair use (legally or morally) in depth to you after work.
Edit: Nevermind. Thanks for saving me a lot of typing, @Rayek. Great post. =)
 
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Rayek

Member
This is an interesting case. From a legal point of perspective I think it all boils down to the question whether or not this new work is a derivative work based on one or more works.

Definition time!

WHAT IS A DERIVATIVE WORK?
"A derivative work is a work that is based on, or incorporates, one or
more already existing works. Examples of derivative works include
multi-media works using preexisting elements, screenplays adapted from
books, new musical arrangements, art reproductions or any other work
that modifies, is derived from or elaborates upon a preexisting work.
To be copyrightable in its own right, a derivative work must contain
enough elements of originality to qualify as as new work. Further, a
copyright holder in a derivative work will only obtain a copyright
interest in his original contribution, not the underlying, preexisting
elements.
It is extremely important to note that only the copyright owner of the
underlying work, or one who has been granted permission to do so, may
prepare derivative works. Unauthorized derivative works violate a
copyright holder's exclusive rights under the copyright act."
http://www.lawgirl.com/copyright.shtml#derivative
For example, it goes without saying that Disney recycled their own animations in various films they produced:

They are in their right to do so, because they own that work.

(PS this wasn't done to save time or money, btw, as so many news outlets and people seem to parrot: it was the director's idea, because he played it safe and knew these sequences were unique and just worked well! It actually took more time to redress these existing animations, rather than create new ones.
https://geekdad.com/2015/06/disneys-recycled-animation/)

Expanding on the Disney examples, is the dance animation shown in the above YouTube video unique enough to count as a copyrightable work? Yes. It is identifiable as a unique work, and anyone outside Disney rotoscoping or even recreating the same frames of animation would have the Disney department on their doorstep the next day to deal with.

Good animation is hard. Good animation that is uniquely identifiable is even harder to pull off. So while generic motion can never be copyrighted (such as a generic walk cycle), Disney's dance animation sequence is a unique work all by itself - the motion at this point becomes a unique work all by itself.

Next question.

Is it legal to rotoscope from copyrighted works?

Making derivatives of copyrighted works without permission is not allowed. Rotoscoping is most likely a derivative work.

If, on the other hand, your own creation is only inspired by another's work, but does not follow it, and forms an independent work, then such inspirational "use" is allowed.
Tarmo Toikkanen, Published copyright author
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-legal-to-rotoscope-from-copyrighted-works

In effect, it all comes down to how whether the new work (Pigeon Pop's pigeon animation) is a derived work from the original artworks (Keke's animations and Sid Weiler) or not.

Then. the question becomes: is Keke's animation an identifiable original work? Is it unique? Would the average person be able to identify his animations as something that stands out from a generic animation cycle, or even complicated generic animation cycles without personality. Would anyone be able to distinguish Keke's movement animation cycles from other unique animation cycles, for that matter?

Yes, I think that is an affirmative.

While the originality of any work can be debated and is, up to an extent, in the eye of the beholder, I think a very strong case can be made that it is. While 'simple' animations they may be, personally (as an animator myself) when I first saw Keke's animations and style for the first time yesterday, I would recognize his animation style as something very uniquely 'his'.

The same as that unique Disney dance cycle. It is a unique work and animation style.

Final question: is Pigeon Pop's pigeon animation a derived work from Keke's animation cycle?

As we've established, it doesn't matter whether the original animation was rotoscoped or not - the core of the matter is whether the new work's animation is directly identifiable as Keke's work.

Yes, I would argue it is. From a technical standpoint the new work's animation was obviously done by someone with lesser animation skills than Keke. It is more linear, and while the point was made in an earlier post that that might be the consequence of the tools used (Flash/AnimateCC), we merely have to look at the timing and the fact that both animations can be overlaid to see that the intent and originality of the original work have been retained in the new work. I'd go one step further, and point out the legs: it is obvious to me that the creator of the new work based it off the middle bird. The legs are identical, and form another uniquely identifiable aspect of the original author's work. If they had been straight legs - not so much. But in this case the legs further solidify the case against the new work's creator.

I also checked the website's IP owner (http://www.fortafygames.com/pigeonpop.html), and the owner of the domain is a Frenchman named Marc *******, Chambery, France. This is somewhat corroborating evidence in my mind that the visual style of animation may have been very well known to this group of developers. Circumstantial evidence at best, but still.

Anyway, based on the "mob response" I'd say the jury would have a field day if this case would ever go trial. In my mind and from a legal point of view, I'd be very surprised if a jury wouldn't find in favour of copyright infringement. The reason why I think there's been a mob response in the first place, is BECAUSE the animation cycle and base shapes are so uniquely identifiable as Keke's work. And I agree.

It is clearly a derived work from existing copyrighted work by Keke.


As for Sid Weiler's pigeon - I am not so sure as I am about the animation cycle(s). I do see how the new creator may have been inspired by it, but it is sufficiently different that I feel it doesn't qualify as a derived work.
 
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T

Thunder Lion

Guest
P..? Ponies! Of course, I forgot my little ponies.


No worries Thunder Lion: it is quite accepted to be a Brony nowadays. No need to be ashamed or hide it, you know.
Friendship Magic Forever!

Thats totally what i meant
 
With 50 million downloads, that game probably has money to go after.

With the timings being so in synch I can't help but wonder if they did in fact rotorscope his animations. If that is the case then it's pretty ****ty behaviour regardless of the difference in polish between the art styles...

As for if it's actually infringing on copyright, like so many things relating to IP law the only way to find out for sure is for it to go to court. Which I seriously doubt will happen.
Speaking of IP and copyright infringement on art, the artist's Twitter has a lot of Yoshi's Island and Kirby fan art. Copyright infringement vs rotoscoping plagiarism.
 
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Speaking of IP and copyright infringement on art, the artist's Twitter has a lot of Yoshi's Island and Kirby fan art. Copyright infringement vs rotoscoping plagiarism.
Fanart is completely different than tracing someone else's work and then selling it.

And I guess this is the end of the thread. @MilesThatch basically said in one of his latest status updates that while @Rayek made some good points, he stands by everything he said, and how he said it, presumably including contacting the artist to tell him the work he had stolen was "mediocre anyway," and telling him he was "more of a drama queen than an artist right now." He said he's done with this thread because:
As for the thread, I found it to be an interesting read, he [Rayek] proposed some good points and the post overall was a good note to end the debate on.
So that's that, I guess. Drop that mic, @Rayek! Excellent post. I think you covered everything very well. I was very curious about what Miles thought about your post, but it seems he has no interest in responding to it, unfortunately!
 
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JackTurbo

Member
Fanart is completely different than tracing someone else's work and then selling it.
Just on this I'd like to point out that yes, morally I agree its completely different. However as far as the law is concerned its actually pretty much the same.

Fan art is a really interesting scenario because as our laws (or at least in the US and UK) are written it absolutely is infringing as far as copyright and IP laws are concerned. The only difference is that most IP holders do not pursue it because (generally) its considered positive to the IP's value. If they wanted to however an IP holder would be well within their (legal) right to file DMCA's and cease and desists to fan art creators.

That being said I'm personally not convinced by the point @sitebender seems to be trying to make. It sounds like he is trying to argue that participating in fanart creation might null and void your rights to other unique creations of your own making in some way, which there is no real grounds for. They are separate works as far as the law is concerned.
 
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@JackTurbo: Yes, I know it's technically copyright infringement legally, of course. I said what I did because morally they're two completely different things, like you said. The art community (and even huge companies like Nintendo) celebrates (or at the very least ignores) fanart that isn't made for profit, and it's obvious why. Most creators would *love* to have fanart done of their work.

Like you said again, sitebender was drawing a false equivalence between the two, which is why I made my response. His post insinuates "well, this guy had his art stolen and used for profit by a seedy company, but he *did* draw fanart of Nintendo characters, soooooo....."

Which is silly, of course. And my post is now stuck in italics forever, because this forum software sucks.
 
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JackTurbo

Member
@RichHopelessComposer - I think we're absolutely on the same page here. One is done in good faith with no motivation beyond love for the IP, while the other is a cynical attempt to cut corners while making a commercial product by piggybacking off the work already done by another creator. Absolutely not the same thing.

I was just more making an academic point because I find the legal grey area of fan creations pretty fascinating.
 
@JackTurbo: Nah, I understood where you were coming from. I just wanted to reiterate the moral differences before other people took parts of your post out of context and ran with just the "fanart is technically illegal" part, heheh. =)
 
Oh I was just pointing out the pot is calling the kettle black. One artist is using another's IP which falls into infringement. A company is rotoscoping.

Turns out rtotoscoping falls into the infringement of a derivative work category and not plagiarism. While still illegal... its the incorrect word to use like libel vs slander.

So its actually closer than I thought.
 
W

Wayfarer

Guest
Hmm, to me this seems way overplayed.

I can understand the artist being upset because it's pretty obvious the art is "inspired" by their work... however, I think calling this plagiarism isn't right. (I'm putting "inspiration" in quotes because maybe it's too subtle a word)

Even on a technical level, while the "inspiration" is almost undeniable, the motion isn't even the same, and from what I can see, they also don't share the same amount of frames.

Every single idea HAS to be a culmination of previous ideas, some ideas just have more obvious links and this one indeed has very close links. That's undeniable. But, at least in my opinion, this is not the point where you call plagiarism.

If you draw the line here so many things are going to end up being plagiarism. For example there's so much music today that has roots in 70's, 80's to varying degrees... and if you were the study the 70's, 80's music you'll be able to tie that back to things that come before that. And I'm not just talking about chord progressions, in some cases you have short phrases being lifted, sometimes more (whether intentionally, accidentally or just by sheer coincidence of someone combining similar previous ideas).

If you want plagiarism: look for art, music, etc where the person has copied something directly (or close enough) from the original work. This feels too many steps removed from the original work in my opinion.

Again, I can understand the artist being annoyed about this, and it would be good if Fortafy Games said "yes, we were inspired by Keke", but I'm not sure suing them is the right course of action. It will probably just lead to more stress for Keke.

(ironically, in the past I held almost the complete opposite opinion to what I'm expressing here)

but in this case it's clearly just someone doing a much superior version of what you were doing.
I'm not sure about one being "superior" to the other; I'd find it hard to say one is better than the other. Each one would suit different environments.
 
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Akai

Guest
Sometimes we saw the idea somewhere then put it in our games, make it better, we don't even remember where did we see it. I wouldn't call it stolen...
 
O

Old School Ben

Guest
This is a very interesting topic. The board is obviously divided. What seems to be appearant is that this is an issue of two aspects: a legal aspect which dictates whether or not the repurposed artwork is in fact stolen and a moral aspect which dictates whether or not the creators of the game are in the wrong for taking inspiration from the original art.

I feel that morally, the game creators would be in the wrong if they did, in fact steal or rip the animation but that clearly is not the case. The artwork has been altered and thus the original artist cannot claim that his art has been used or stolen. Sure, inspiration may have been taken from the artist's original, but that doesn't give the artist legal grounds to claim his own art had been stolen.

It seems to me that the makers of this game tried to cut corners instead of creating their own animations and will ultimately be paying the price.

As an artist myself, its really hard for me to not side with the artist but the original artwork is so simple in concept, a second derivative piece of art having similarities does not make it a blatant rip off or an act of plagerism.

That is not to say that this corner cutting hasn't had a negative effect or will in the future on the creators of the game.

It really sucks that the artist feels as though his work has been stolen. Unfortunately, this is one of the many pitfalls that eventually comes up when pursuing a career in art. It's a crummy deal but those are the breaks.

Situations like this are very taxing on the gaming community. Based on reactions on this board, it's clear that the community is divided. We will never know if the artwork is in fact stolen, seeing as how a person's perspective on the matter would be the deciding factor, and that perspective could skew in either direction :/
 
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Ampersand

Guest
You know. this is not even plagiarism by definition.
OP posts a screenshot of the definition of plagiarism when the issue here is his understanding of plagiarism. Maybe that's the issue is that your understanding is based on some second-hand information rather than first-hand understanding? I want to know who you've spoke to that says there's no case here -- I had to get in touch with my buddy from high school who is now studying to practice copy law at his father's firm just to be sure my anecdotal understanding was not incorrect, and he said the same thing I did: this case is an easy payday. But that's just a law student, so perhaps we should go ahead and call a firm since you don't approve of anyone's knowledge but your own.
At the moment, It is unclear whether he merely copiedthe animation style, or flat out rotoscoped the animations.
The best part is it doesn't matter. There is court precedence set for both situations that favors protection of the original artists work.

Let's say this one more time clearly, since OP is now relying on buzz phrases and lash-insults: the courts will rule in favor of the original artist given precedence and interpretation of applicable laws. There is no discussion to be had here beyond something along of the lines of "I disagree with the state of copyright laws in the United States".

One more time: your opinions don't matter here, and the proposed "discussion" is empty. If you have some argument based on Supreme Court precedence, or maybe based on actual interpretation of applicable laws, then I'd love to hear it. Still waiting on that, however...

Also, OP: stop posting freeze-frame comparisons. That is not comparing the animation at all, and the discussion you started is regarding animation theft... You should stop changing the subject to fit the position you're entrenched in.

I think maybe people need to realize that copyright infringement doesn't solely cover work you've created -- it also protects things like style quite well (as OP clearly doesn't know). If you were to create any piece of intellectual property that could be reasonably mistaken as an already copyrighted piece of intellectual property, that is copyright infringement.

Sometimes we saw the idea somewhere then put it in our games, make it better, we don't even remember where did we see it. I wouldn't call it stolen...
Inspiration is great. If frame for frame copying of animations is one's definition of inspiration, then I'm rather sad to say that the individual has never been inspired. Inspiration doesn't make you want to copy something -- it's a culmination of cultural input that you project back through the filters of your own psyche. And it's an insult to creativity as a whole to say that that is what's going on here.

Frankly I can't wait to see Pop Pigeon be pulled and a judgement be reached if the artist files suit -- likely what will happen is an out of court settlement, which is equally condemning as a guilty verdict.
Turns out rtotoscoping falls into the infringement of a derivative work category and not plagiarism.
Imagine if the others would join us in the light of knowledge rather than wallowing in opinions. Literally takes 1 second to realize the animations are rotoscoped, takes 10 seconds to find out rotoscoping is copyright infringement, takes another 30 seconds to find that there is plenty of court precedence set for exactly this.

It's almost like OP just wants to be right even in light of facts, information, logical conclusions...

Having a laugh as I re-read the topic title... If anyone is salty, I wouldn't first point to either of the artists we're discussing :p
 
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@Ampersand: For a forum that houses game developers, there are a surprising number of people here who have absolutely zero understanding of animation, artistic integrity, or copyright law. The reasons this is legally and morally theft have been presented like ten times, and we still have people saying "in my opinion....", anyway.

If any of them make anything that gets any real attention, they'll learn the hard way anyway, haha.

Gonna get "inspired" right out of whatever market they sell in, and right into a courtroom, lol. :')
 
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Ampersand

Guest
And anyway, if we're going to be subjective about the matter: I think the Pop Pigeon looks like rubbish. I can't say I've ever seen a pigeon (in multiple countries, hemispheres) that didn't have iridescent coloring around it's collar. And while this is excusable in the original artist's animation because of the minimalist style, it is inexcusable to me in a hi-def vector with full color gradients.

It's almost as though the second artist didn't even bother to look at pictures of pigeons to see what some of their most notable characteristics are. Hell, I would've at least still done that, even if I were so short-sighted to rotoscope not just one person's animation but several of an artist's animations almost verbatim.

The skills that would've made you a stock clip-art "artist" fifteen years ago are now somehow deemed satisfactory across most of the indie game market. I'm guessing its due to pure saturation of that terrible style across mobile markets. Make it pop, follow what you learned at graphic design school, and be sure it looks like it was in a flash game fifteen years ago!

And @MilesThatch wanted to continue to force bias onto other's opinions... It's funny, because I had no bias. I did not know who either of these artists were before this "discussion", nor had I seen either of the animations. If you had presented it to me in reverse (that the stick-drawing animations came after Pop Pigeon), I would have fully sided in the same manner, only in this scenario that would be in Pop Pigeon's favor.

Honestly, I'm glad OP abandoned his own "discussion" that he clearly didn't want to have, because I'm one step away from creating 3 minutes in gif overlays that shows how disgustingly close these animations are. On a more reminiscent note, one of my favorite parts was the contextually clipped screenshot that OP posted further up on this page. I went frame by frame through that same animation comparison, and realized that he had carefully selected practically the only frame that doesn't quite line up (only at the legs)... When, again, the discussion is that of copyright infringement regarding the animation, not any one frame that someone wants to pick to help their case.

"No, we didn't steal your melody! See: measure 3, beat 3 on the downbeat is a different note!"
 
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Ampersand

Guest
Can we stop claiming that the developer has done something illegal like you've been advised by a lawyer? I've asked my father, who has studied multimedia copyright subject in Ryerson university as a part of his phd. He's a producer and a script writer with a good three decades in the field. So I'd say he's pretty qualified to know what constitutes an illegal copyright infringement.

You can't copyright a style.
You can't copyright a motion/movement.
You can't copyright a concept like "a dancing bird".

That's pretty much covers all of your arguments you've provided thus far on whether this is an illegal act.
Curious how much you or your father know about case precedence that is set for rotoscoping regarding derivative works. You know so much about the topic, clearly the anecdote about your father provides he should know more, yet neither you nor him have mentioned that rotoscoping is indeed copyright infringement -- and are going so far as to say you can't copyright a style or a motion/movement.

You know about the DMCA case regarding the Blade Runner AI?

You think if this thief wasn't a thief he wouldn't defend himself, rather than hiding in a hole like you yourself are doing now? Honest, righteous men don't hide. The person you're defending doesn't even seem to agree with you.

How much does your father know about the laundry list of Disney v. X cases where they've ended numerous other IPs for doing exactly this?

You're literally telling me if I go copy the style, movements, or any other artistic direction of Disney's Snow White for my own interpretation of the tale, that I wouldn't (and moreso shouldn't) be sued?

You really can't go about spouting baseless nonsense and firing people up over facts only to abandon the discussion. "My father said" doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot when we all have the same access to the law, and no law degree is necessary to understand the situation at hand. You thinking that it does leads me to believe there is a lack of understanding.
Is it immoral? Heck, he did a great job animating it better than the original so I'd say he deserves to keep it. All that talk about it being a "rough" is technicality and excuses to make the argument seem valid. We're not talking about the artists overall skills (2 years later mind you) It's an animation from 2016... it's not a rough at this point.. It looks the way it looks - crappy. It may have been a choice but polish a turd, it's still a turd.

from what I see. What separates thieves from artists is how much of your own work you put into the art from the reference. And It's pretty clear cut, without a bias of a follower, the game dev has more than enough variance and additions to count it as his own.
You're the only one trying to discuss morality -- and only insofar as to make your argument. You seem to be the only one concerned with morality and the fact that you keep bringing it up is a technicality and an excuse to make your argument seem valid.

And let's try that again -- you're saying that if you paint over someone's photo of a landscape that it's not copyright infringement? Because you'd be wrong again.

I'm getting a really strong hint that this topic is purely bait
Indeed. I'd say this discussion made me lose some respect for OP here, but there was no baseline to begin with so... He's now on the troll list in my book. This type of entrenchment is the sort of thing you see regarding politics and religion... Not something black and white like the law.
 
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I'm getting a really strong hint that this topic is purely bait
It's not, unfortunately. Miles went off on the original artist on Twitter, saying that his work was "mediocre," so the Pigeon Pop guys should have free reign to steal it, and that he was being "more of a drama queen than an artist" by daring to call them out on it. Ah well.
 
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zendraw

Guest
do you people not see how silly it is to defend this 'artist'? look at anime, look at mobas, look at FPS games, look anywhere where actual artist have thrown alot more work then this excuse of an artist has done and then come and talk about legal or not, he is just crying, and becus he cant face with the facts, he sends his army of haters. yes he sends them by posting on his social media, how is it not obvious? and now actual devs that actually put that animation to good use are bein sh**on becouse of this crybaby. if some1 makes gold out of your dirt, then let him do so, he is actually doing somthing, just compare how meny people enjoyed the game and how meny people enjoyed his crappy animation? objectively he is being the bad guy here not allowing people to enjoy a fun game.

anyway here is a better example, Dota. why no1 cryes that every moba is a dota ripoff? and not just a ripoff, a blatant one, like the heroes themselvs. and there was ALOT more work done in dota then this guy with his 6 frames. like pffff what even is this? i wuld be glad if some1 steals or gets inspired from me. this guy is just an idiot with no vision for life. just a bunch of haters behind his back. in my eyes he is no artist or worthy of calling himself as such, art is about sharing, and this is pathetic. and its not even that much of an art! dont make it look as if he has done the new monalisa... jesus... infact this incident only shows what a poor soul he is in reality, crying about his tiny little animation. it wuld be worth more if it was atleast a meme animation, and its not even that..
 
@blacklemon: You do realize that keke is 100x better at drawing than you, and that you wouldn't be able to make any of his "πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty" animations even after ten hours of trying, right? His stuff is harder to do than it looks. :'D

He has 140,000 followers on Twitter because of his animations. They obviously have value. His huge, loyal following is worth real world money. Saying he should let random lazy pieces of πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’© dilute his brand by stealing his animations is ridiculous. Copyright is real, and his animations are worth (probably a lot) of money, whether you realize how good he is or not. Get over it.

Also:

lol. It seems even the company who stole the art was having second thoughts about it. =')
 
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Wayfarer

Guest
Grabs popcorn

then puts it away again after realising I copied the butter popcorn recipe :p



@Ampersand: There's a funny irony with you having a Pokemon Engine in your signature :p
 
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GMWolf

aka fel666
do you people not see how silly it is to defend this 'artist'? look at anime, look at mobas, look at FPS games, look anywhere where actual artist have thrown alot more work then this excuse of an artist has done and then come and talk about legal or not, he is just crying, and becus he cant face with the facts, he sends his army of haters. yes he sends them by posting on his social media, how is it not obvious? and now actual devs that actually put that animation to good use are bein sh**on becouse of this crybaby. if some1 makes gold out of your dirt, then let him do so, he is actually doing somthing, just compare how meny people enjoyed the game and how meny people enjoyed his crappy animation? objectively he is being the bad guy here not allowing people to enjoy a fun game.

anyway here is a better example, Dota. why no1 cryes that every moba is a dota ripoff? and not just a ripoff, a blatant one, like the heroes themselvs. and there was ALOT more work done in dota then this guy with his 6 frames. like pffff what even is this? i wuld be glad if some1 steals or gets inspired from me. this guy is just an idiot with no vision for life. just a bunch of haters behind his back. in my eyes he is no artist or worthy of calling himself as such, art is about sharing, and this is pathetic. and its not even that much of an art! dont make it look as if he has done the new monalisa... jesus... infact this incident only shows what a poor soul he is in reality, crying about his tiny little animation. it wuld be worth more if it was atleast a meme animation, and its not even that..
Do you not read?
We are not saying that the issue is that the style is simmilar. That is obviously fine.
We are saying that the animations are clear ripoffs. That is an issue.
When I say ripoffs, I mean they may well have been rotoscoped!

And again, how much work has gone into it has nothing to do with anything!

Say I steal a rough diamond and cut it.
Even if I do a superb job cutting the diamond, I still stole the diamond to begin with.

(And I personally don't think the gane matches keke's style. Not that is matters.)
 
W

Wayfarer

Guest
@RichHopelessComposer
Have you even actually looked at the game - outside of the Twitter post? (obviously I'm saying that with slight sarcasm)

How many people with strong comments here have actually studied the animations frame by frame? The Twitter animation doesn't even show the game animation off in a way that allows you to accurately compare it with the original (it's out of sync for starters). Do you know how many other "dance moves" are in the game? There's a lot. Just watch the first video I posted above.

---

A really interesting case, though different to this, would be Vlambeer's Ridiculous Fishing. The game Ninja Fishing was almost identical mecahnically (though it had different art) and "since game mechanics were not eligible for copyright protection, Vlambeer did not pursue legal action." (this is quoted from Wikipedia so feel free to do more research). But the point I wanted to make is this is an example of a shameful ripoff. Whether it's legally allowed or not is another thing altogether, but there are so many moving parts which make "Ridiculous Fishing... Ridiculous Fishing". While the artist who, let's say, copied Keke's animations wasn't overly original... it's not like they've done no work at all here (and I know that's not the point... but in a strange way it's exactly the point as well because that's how new ideas are created from previous ideas... this is just an extreme version of it)

In the case of Pigeon Pop I don't think the line is as close as you're making it out to be.

I just typed "RPG logos" into Google image search to see how quickly I could find a similar logo to your game in your signature, and a few seconds later... I came across this. I don't think they're going to sue you for your logo which looks similar to that, and I don't think Final Fantasy is going to sue Fairy Fencer for their logo which looks similar to theirs which looks similar to yours. Sure, I'm using exaggeration here (and this IS different than Pigeon Pop), but I'm trying to make a point :p
 
I came across this. I don't think they're going to sue you for your logo which looks similar to that, and I don't think Final Fantasy is going to sue Fairy Fencer for their logo which looks similar to theirs which looks similar to yours. Sure, I'm using exaggeration here (and this IS different than Pigeon Pop), but I'm trying to make a point :p
lol. This has to be satire, right?

I don't think they'll sue me, either, because mine isn't even close to being copyright infringement, while the examples this thread is about blatantly are. If you're going to "make a point" with examples, pick examples that actually make your point. :')
 
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Lonewolff

Guest
I can't see any similarity whatsoever in what you linked compared to Rich's one.

None.
 
W

Wayfarer

Guest
I can't see any similarity whatsoever in what you linked compared to Rich's one.
lol. This has to be satire, right?
I don't think they'll sue me, either, because mine isn't even close to being copyright infringement, while the examples this thread is about blatantly are. If you're going to "make a point" with examples, pick examples that actually make your point. :')
Of course it was satirical. And of course they won't sue you.

I wasn't even planning to post in this thread for obvious reasons (I haven't even posted much on the GMC in recent times).
What made me post is that so many people here are so 100% sure of what they're saying. You (and others) are making something sound like a "black and white" case when it's not "black and white" and I think that deserves to be called out.

Is he selling it? I thought he was just making it for practice...
Come on, I may as well quote you: "This has to be satire, right?"
Even if they are doing it for "practice" you don't need me to tell you that wouldn't hold up at all.
On the topic of satire, if a fan game was a parody maybe you could argue for "fair use". But fan games have been shut down over and over... and over:
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-history-of-fan-projects-that-nintendo-shut-down-2016-8/
https://gamingreinvented.com/ninten...endo-fanworks-cancelled-due-legal-complaints/
etc...
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/investigation-are-fan-games-legal

And the thing is, I don't think they should be shutdown at all myself, I'm just pointing out the logic inconsistency on your side of the argument.

Ampersand going on about legal advice with a fan game in their signature seems very hard to take seriously. Again, I don't see anything wrong with the fan game personally, but if Ampersand is going to take a "black and white" stance they should at least try to be remotely consistent with it.

Part of the same reason I don't think fan games should be shutdown is also why I don't think the case discussed in the topic should be declared so black and white. It'd be awful living at some point in the future when everybody is suing everybody over creative works and people are afraid to release things.

Regardless, I'm happy to respect your stand point and see some of the value in it; I just don't think you're as right as you think you are.
 
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zendraw

Guest
here is my πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©πŸ’©ty animation
dfgdf.gif

i just want to say im not defending those guys, what they did is wrong, but what this guy, the artist, did is even worse. he is simply creating hate, in reality as i explained, intelectual property will aways be stolen, the most you can do is to be the first to get the most out of it or atleast you also try to use it, why doesnt he collab with some devs and put his animations to good use? again im not defending stealing, im jsut sayn to be responsible, there are such people.

edit: now i actually watched the chicken in the game and the dance is slightly different then in that guy`s animation. in the game the motion forms a V, while in the animation it forms a U, in the animation there is weight while in the game its just a move. and i think it makes a difference

edit2: now it is clear to me that that guy`s(or girl?) chicken animations simply inspired the developers to make that chicken game and i dont see anything wrong in that? instead of him being happy that he is an inspiration, he gets greedy and creates hate and tryes to put them down... if blizzard did the same with Dota, now there wont be any mobas or Esports or a ton of other things people love. greed can make a person very shortsighted. Diablo was also inspired the same way from another game, the dev sayd which game it was in his postmortem. overall this guy is a hypocrite for me, in his comments he says he wants to share goodness, yet when actual goodness happens he spits and curses and cries for attention...
 
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Lonewolff

Guest
It'd be awful living at some point in the future when everybody is suing everybody over creative works and people are afraid to release things.
Already does.

Look at how many indies 'King' buried. Burying indies that released their games years before King did, but just didn't have the financial backing to survive fighting over it in court.

King knows well that the 'Pay to win' model works both in an outside gaming.
 
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Wayfarer

Guest
I've thought about this more, and I'm happy to respect other people's opinions (even if they don't agree with mine). I'm even willing to shift my opinion slightly to somewhere more neutral.

I've gotten out all my thoughts now :p

And I do feel sincerely bad for Keke. It'd be nice if these large companies could make the artist (possibly contracted out) or whoever was responsible for the decision just admit they heavily referenced Keke's work... though because of money I doubt this is going to happen.

edit: now i actually watched the chicken in the game and the dance is slightly different then in that guy`s animation. in the game the motion forms a V, while in the animation it forms a U, in the animation there is weight while in the game its just a move. and i think it makes a difference
Yeah, there are definitely a lot of differences. I actually made a whole list of things but I decided against posting it. I figured maybe that wasn't the point. But from a technical standpoint there definitely are clear differences in the animations.

[edit: When I say "technical" here, I don't mean "legal", more so just generally comparing one animation with the other]

For me, the main issues are the style of the legs, the motion, the circular body and the way the neck petrudes in different animations (like Keke's work does). Even saying that, there are still lots of original things. One of the things I actually like about Pigeon Pop's is how the head turns (it has a more 3 dimensional feel). Also, in Pigeon Pop's the body swings completely above the head.

Anybody wanting to compare should definitely look at the one in the game (it's at 1:18 of the first video above) - the nuances of the animation are much more obvious.
 
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Carnivius

Member
instead of him being happy that he is an inspiration, he gets greedy and creates hate and tryes to put them down....
He should be happy that someone ripped him off?

I've had this done to me before several times over past 15 years or so though on much smaller scale. There have pieces of mine that while that may look minor to most people, they still took me a long time and constant revisions before I was happy with them. And then to find some time later someone creates something that blatantly copies mine (having noticed some of them had clicked the 'like' or 'fave' buttons on those pieces of mine earlier on) and then makes profit from it? By so what you say I'm greedy that I'm feeling rather pissed off that they deemed my work free to copy or trace over because they didn't have the skill or patience to form the foundations themselves? No I think the art thief was the greedy one trying to make money without learning all the skills required to do what he wanted and instead cutting corners by taking someone else's work and rehashing it. Bugs me in some cases where people think the stolen one is the original cos it's more well known.
In other cases I've had people actually come to me and ask if they could or edit pieces of mine to use in their game projects or even community projects (like that lady from Texas who emailed me asking if she could make badges/buttons of my Doctor Who retro sprites for the library course she was doing for some kids) often saying they'll put me in the credits and such. Most of those times I'm just glad they had enough respect to ask me first and many of those I've been pleased with what they've shown be when they're done.

And the artist here did not create hate. He pointed out the extreme and obvious similarities between a couple pieces he obviously put some effort into in regards to fluid animation and those of a game by a group who didn't have the decency to get in touch. His sizable fanbase then took it upon themselves to give that game the bad ratings it has in protest cos that's all they knew what to do in response and let those devs know it's not ok to be a-stealing from other folk just trying to make a living.

being inspired is one thing but show some respect for the original creator rather than just assuming he/she'd be ok you just stealing it.
 
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Wayfarer

Guest
Edit: Actually all the points @Carnivius says make me feel bad for saying what I said before.

I suppose if "plagiarism" means working from another piece in a direct manner - well I guess this is plagiarism. But the second I say that I start thinking of other examples and I can't figure a point where the line starts or ends. But yeah, the way the necks petrude in a lot of the animations is remarkably similar to the original works. And when you combine that together with the general feel of the motion I guess I can agree that this is plagiarism. At the same time, you have other cases where an artist copies something almost 1:1 (and I don't think this is a case of 1:1 copying).

I think what I'm trying to say is it feels like "plagiarism" is a spectrum and if you go far enough to one side of the spectrum (obviously not the case here) you end up being original. I mean I can spot tiny aspects of various pixel artists work where they use similar techniques to other artists to say create the effect of leaves on a tree. Or how they do rocks and so forth. Or general shapes of characters. Or even how they adjust hues in shadows/light. At some point it must go from "plagiarism" to being a small enough component to be considered fine to copy. When you have things far on either side of the spectrum it seems very easy to tell what is plagiarism and what is "original" - though at some point things get more muddy. Maybe if I was better at art I'd instantly discern this (Pigeon Pop) as plagiarism.

Edit: Also I don't want to end up in a world where everyone is suing each other over this stuff (more than it already happens). There will be cases where they get it right, but given enough time there'll be cases where they'll get it wrong. Like I can imagine a future where somebody might sue someone else's music not even over the music but over say an effects chain and the settings they use (or even the overall "sound" of a song). And everytime somebody successfully sues something it has to potential to push "what can be sued" even further. I still feel conflicted on all of this :p. Though I know for sure I feel bad when I read things like what you wrote.

Bugs me in some cases where people think the stolen one is the original cos it's more well known
Now there's clones of Pigeon Pop
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=pigeon pop&c=apps&hl=en
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pigeon.bird.pop&hl=en
 
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zendraw

Guest
i sayd he shuld be happy that some1 got inspired by his work and made a game, dont read selectivly. and i dont think he gained anything or will gain anything from this whole business. his problem is his big ego of an artist, what is the problem that some1 will get money from being inspired from his work? league of legends whole content is a ripoff of somthing, its not that big of a deal. now what will he do when other people make pigeon games? he cant do anything, all he did is sprout hate and not allowing people to be creative. i mean look at Noc here, his game Skein is a gauntlet ripoff, why no1 attacks him? and he is getting paid for it no less. just look under my signature, the golden bird, is a flappy bird ripoff, no1 cares.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
Forum Staff
Admin
i mean look at Noc here, his game Skein is a gauntlet ripoff, why no1 attacks him?
Looooooooooool!



Seriously though, if you want to bring my game into ti, then let's just point a few things out:

1) Gauntlet permits free movement (and it's base grid was 16x16 iirc), while Skein is fixed to the grid and it's 8x8
2) Gauntlet graphics were 24x24 (approx), while my sprites and tiles are all 8x8 (approx)
3) Gauntlet was FIXED level based, while Skein is Proc Gen.
4) Gauntlet didn't have various magic spells nor critical moves, Skein does
5) Gauntlet had four player characters, Skein has three
6) Gauntlet had 4 player coop, while Skein only has 2 player coop

I could go on and on about the differences, and the only thing you can really say is the same as gauntlet is that both Gauntlet and my game are fantasy arena shooters... I didn't "copy" a single thing from Gauntlet directly except the "feel" (or at least I hope I did!) and I do state in my games description that Skein was very definitely inspired by the old arcade classics. ;)

So, yeah, no let's not compare apples and oranges. If I'd rotoscoped my sprites and copied the exact game mechanics then maybe you'd have a case here but as it is...

Nah.
 
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