Discussion If HITLER, MANSON (Suicide Bombers) etc...

K12gamer

Member
...were adopted as babies and raised by the world's best parents...

Do you think they would have turned out differently / better?
Or are some people born with a genetic defect that predestines them to become evil?

Hitler


Manson
 

Ninety

Member
Don't know much about Manson but Hitler's ideologies were largely products of the times he was living in. Although he had a troubled relationship with his father he was also heavily impacted by the racism/anti-Semitism/fascist nationalism on the rise in Germany after the First World War. You can't discount the importance of environmental factors.
 

Nocturne

Friendly Tyrant
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Ah, the old Nature Vs. Nurture debate. I see things like this...

If you have a cake recipe and give it to 100 different people, you will end up with 100 different cakes even though they all started with the same recipe, since some will have an extra gram of flour, or a half gram less chocolate, and then some will bake for a minute more or a minute less in an oven that is 3 degrees to hot or 2 degrees too cold, etc.... People are the same. We all start with essentially the same DNA "recipe" but how it is "mixed" and then "cooked" determines the final outcome. So, even if someone is genetically predestined to have some sort of "bad" gene (if such a thing exists), how they are brought up and the surroundings they are brought up in will change how that may be expressed.
 
L

Law

Guest
While I think Hitler wouldn't have been evil if he had had a different upbringing, I think a random child given Hitler's upbringing probably wouldn't have become evil either. Genetics does have an influence on personality, especially mental illnesses, and I think a lot of evil people are mentally ill.
 

chance

predictably random
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I don't believe Manson and Hitler had any sort of mental defect. They weren't destined to become psychopathic killers. And it's dangerous to view them that way.

Because treating them as "abnormal monsters" hides a fundamental truth about human nature. And that is: any one of us, given the right circumstances, has the potential to commit horrible acts against other people.

No matter what our biological background, moral upbringing, socio-economic status, etc. We all have that potential inside us.
 
T

Tirous

Guest
Hitler wasn't mentally-ill, I have a minor mental illness and am thus forced to live around others that do on a daily basis whether i like it or not. I've seen all the extremes of it. Hitler, let me assure you, wasn't like this, he had power, and it corrupted him(you know, as power tends to do in 100% of instances to a more or less degree ;D) simple as that.

But no matter...
Hitler got to power for two main reasons:

Firstly, the idea of a pure-race of man and the forced removal of others wasn't a new idea, the Nazi's were only one of many ideas floating about. People today say that trump is a horrifying sight of nationalistic right-wing thinking, and i wouldn't at all dismiss said claims(let the flame-war begin!). However, i would also say that what trump is saying now is NOTHING compared to the type of nationalism that existed in pre-Nazi Germany.

Secondly, Hitler was simple a vary clever man, he knew how to present himself, sure WE might see a twisted Hitler in RETROSPECT, but to the people of Nazi Germany he was a symbol of strength, someone whom could help avenge the shame put upon the German people. His vary swift and rapid semi-peaceful take-over of European lands at first helped in this respect, it let him prove himself, prove that he really could do what he said he could, that he was as mighty as he promised the people he'd be, and thus Nazi Germany began.
 

K12gamer

Member
Looking at old pictures of serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer makes me think some people may be born evil.

In this photo...he's holding the cat in an abnormal way (Hand around it's throat)...


And look at this crazy looking mugshot...
upload_2016-9-24_14-37-7.jpeg

I think a lot of adult criminals probably had certain warning signs as children...and made have turned out differently (better)
if their parents were more aware and took appropriate corrective actions.
 
Relevant:
People who do evil things don't usually see themselves as evil. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hitler was a completely normal, very charming young man. His paintings are actually very pretty, something you'd expect from a sensitive, thoughtful person. The problem is that people start off with one small true idea "Germany's kind of a wreck right now...", repeat it a bunch of times among friends, add a bit to the original story ".....Jews sure do have a disproportionate amount of wealth right now," and slowly go from there. When you live inside an echo chamber with a bunch of like-minded people affirming that you're correct in your beliefs, it's not hard for the echoes to slowly become more and more warped, along with the people who are making the echoes. Most people who do horrible things slowly slide into their terrible states of mind because of sadness or anger at how the world is, and end up doing horrible things and thinking they're right. It's not hard for people to form lines between "us" and "other" when nobody corrects them. I'm sure Hitler was a perfectly lovely person to the people he knew and cared about, which is why I love that video I posted. It's not something most people think about about.

tldr: If Hitler had grown up somewhere or sometime else, I think he would have grown up to be a peaceful artist or helpful politician. After all, he wasn't the only nazi alive during WWII. We also would've been spared a lot of Holocausting if any of his friends had had the insight or courage to say "hey, Adolf, what we're doing might be a little messed up, don't you think?"

Unrelated to the thread, but this is why the rumblings from the Trump and BLM camps both worry me a little...

Edit: And of course, some people are just sociopaths. They're probably just born that way. Manson probably sits in this category.
 
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Law

Guest
Chance, your post did not distinguish between believing Hitler was mentally ill, and beleiving that anyone has the potential for evil. I have no doubt given the right upbringing anyone is capable of cruelty.

But if you believe that genetics has even just a mild influence on your personality, than it's ridiculous to suggest some of the most evil people in history were in no way genetically different. Perhaps it might be possible that Hitler had identical genes to everyone else - but given the mass murder he performed, his abusive relationship with his wife and cruelty to those close to him, it seems unlikely, incredibly unlikely.

It's not an attempt to dehumanise these evil people, it's just an observation of the interplay between genetics and upbringing. If you believe that both dictate the outcome of your life, then you have to accept that the statistical outliers are almost certainly abnormal on both ways.
 
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chance

predictably random
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But if you believe that genetics has even just a mild influence on your personality, than it's ridiculous to suggest some of the most evil people in history were in no way genetically different.
I agree some people are genetically different. But I was discussing Hitler and Manson, neither of whom (I believe) were genetically predisposed to mass murder.

I think you're right that some people are genetically prone to violence. But most of the violence in the world is committed by "normal people". That was my point.
 
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Law

Guest
What evidence do you base that belief on? The default assumption would be that these individuals were deviant in both ways.
 

chance

predictably random
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What evidence do you base that belief on? The default assumption would be that these individuals were deviant in both ways.
(emphasis mine)

No doubt they were both deviant. I'm just saying I don't know of evidence their deviance was genetically based. In both cases, I feel these individuals consciously chose the paths they followed. They understood the consequences, and could have chosen different paths.

In Manson's case, it was an unsurprising choice based on his circumstances: horrible family history, lack of discipline and guidance, early incarceration, etc. In Hitler's case, it was bitterness over WWI, disappointment with life success, willingness to scapegoat others for society's problems, opportunistic grab for power, surrounding himself with like-minded people, etc.

We could argue the details of these circumstances forever, and never truly understand what motivated these men. I'm just saying there's no need to evoke genetics in order to explain it.
 
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Law

Guest
When I say that there were probably genetic factors in Hitler and Manson's evil, I'm not trying to ignore all the other factors that affected them. I'm just making the very simple observation that when you have two factors effecting your capacity for cruelty, people who are in the fringes will almost certainly have both factors putting them there. It's an observation of maths more than anything, but without reliable evidence otherwise, it's the most sensible conclusion to come to.
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
When I say that there were probably genetic factors in Hitler and Manson's evil, I'm not trying to ignore all the other factors that affected them. I'm just making the very simple observation that when you have two factors effecting your capacity for cruelty, people who are in the fringes will almost certainly have both factors putting them there. It's an observation of maths more than anything, but without reliable evidence otherwise, it's the most sensible conclusion to come to.
I understand your point. But I'm skeptical genetic factors played a significant role in Hitler's case. The reason is because countless additional people participated in these atrocities. Many of whom were "hands on" with day-to-day slaughter. Literally thousands of guards, SS soldiers, and civilian contractors. I'm not talking about low-level people who just "followed orders". I'm talking about high-level people who actively designed the apparatus of genocide.

So if we believe Hitler was "genetically prone" to this, we must also believe thousands of other Germans had the same affliction. And that's illogical, and biologically unlikely.

Instead, we should admit that cruelty and hatred are aspects of human nature. These traits aren't genetic exceptions -- they are common in many of us. And given the opportunity, many of us will give in to them.
 
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Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)

〜Flower Prince〜
...were adopted as babies and raised by the world's best parents...
Do you think they would have turned out differently / better?
Yes
Or are some people born with a genetic defect that predestines them to become evil?
No

Explaination: Genetics do change a lot of things, but not that kind of stuff.
Let's ignore handicaps for the sake of this post, Hitler didn't have those, or wasn't born with those, I've never heard of Manson, but it's probably the same with him.
What do genetics change in the minds of people? They change lots of small things, like strength of certain emotions, impulsivity in you, sensitivity to outside impulses, ability to learn faster/slower, and so on.
The rest, such as hatred/cruelty, selfishness, pride, but also love and affection, goodwill and goodness are all learned/influenced in you AFTER birth.
Also, a lot of "mental disorders" are also "learned" (not the correct word) after birth. Usually in the first few years of life. Such as phobias, hyperactivity, social anxiety, and so on.

Say someone is born as a person with instable emotions.
You get very loving parents, not much negativity around you, a calm childhood, and so on. (I'm not talking about overprotection).
That person will be instable, and maybe easly influenced, but has learned to love, has a strong morality, and so on in the earliest years, so it will turn out to be a very loving and kindhearted person.

Say that person has abusive parents, maybe a rapist dad, and so on, and sees a lot of violence and abuse, maybe death in early years. And say that person was also born with a huge intelligence/logic, and as a very tall strong person.
That person will have a weaker or nonexistent conscience/morality, will be used to being taller and stronger, will see patterns/solutions in everything, and so on.
That person will have a chance to be a serial killer, not always, but way way more likely then the average person.

These are of course two extremes. Lots of inbetweens exist. That's why while most people care and love for others, they are also selfish and lack some compassion. All in different degress. All "inbetweens" (the grow-up situation).
Hitler was born as an impulsive and emotive person. I don't know about his childhood, but he had bad experiences as a young adult, he also had a lack of compassion, and grew a hatred. Then he had bad influences (war, nationalism and propaganda in WW1), and then he got power. Of course he was the tyrant he was!

It is still born the same person, but the surroundings/influences after birth have either turned the person loving and kindhearted, or evil and without mercy.
Young kids become and immitate what they experience and see the most around them. (Not talking about everything, there's exceptions and "greys" for a lot)
So say Hitler was born in a very warm and loving family, and wasn't subjected to big violence and bad habits/influences, he would also most likely be a very loving and warm man.
chance and Nocturne were very correct in this topic, Law and K12 weren't so correct.

Off-topic but kinda on-topic:
One exception of a mental disorder might be the food or stuff the mother consumes while being pregenant. Say a mom consumes lots of sugar and fatty foods, the fetus will get an addiction to fatty foods and sugar, and will get more energy. That child might be born with ADHD of some sort. But this certain situation, I also see as "after birth", even though it is technically before birth. Because it has more to do with influences, then with inner nature "born" in a person.
 

Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)

〜Flower Prince〜
Both Hitler and Manson were incredibly abusive to those in thier personal lives, too. And there is a big gap between leading and being led.
You really don't understand the points he's trying to make at all, don't you?
What you said had nothing to do with it.

The point he was trying to make was:
Yes, Hitler did cruel things, but a lot of higher NAZI officers also did that. And that high of a number of genetically cruel people in the same place is illogical and impossible, so it must be due influence, general Nazi mentality of that time, (things after birth), and so on, so, not genetics.

Hitler was cruel in personal life, yes, but that has almost nothing to do with that point.

He even freaking said he wasn't talking about the "we follow orders" one, that you pointed out (being led), he was talking about all those other leaders, officers, even people before Hitler was at power that influenced him, and were also cruel before Hitlers power.

And just a little side-thought, who said these other officers weren't also cruel in their personal lives?
 
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Law

Guest
Apologies, Chance, I misread your post.

It's incredibly relevant that Hitler was also cruel to his wife, it shows that it was not merely his ideology that was nasty.

And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the small subset of the German population who ended up managing Hitler's genocide were slightly genetically different. Though obviously not to the degree Hitler was. After all, there have been shown to be genetic links to psychopathy and APD, disorders that would make you a prime candidate to run a concentration camp.
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
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And there is a big gap between leading and being led.
I agree. Cowardly people can be coerced into nearly anything. Many low-level holocaust perpetrators fall into that category.

But I was referring to high-level architects and organizers. Hitler didn't handle all the details himself, or order every act that was committed. Hitler was surrounded by like-minded deputies who actively worked out details, such as Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, Muller, Frank, etc. And in turn, these deputies unleashed the hatred in thousands of other people who became willing participants. They didn't have to be coerced, they just needed justification for their hatred and cruelty.

It's convenient to believe these people were just "being led" to commit genocide. But the truth is more painful.
 

Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)

〜Flower Prince〜
Apologies, Chance, I misread your post.

It's incredibly relevant that Hitler was also cruel to his wife, it shows that it was not merely his ideology that was nasty.
Ah, okay. But I thought it was obvious everyone knew we're talking about the person, not the ideology, that's what this whole thread is about, right? Cruel people. But thanks.

And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the small subset of the German population who ended up managing Hitler's genocide were slightly genetically different. Though obviously not to the degree Hitler was. After all, there have been shown to be genetic links to psychopathy and APD, disorders that would make you a prime candidate to run a concentration camp.
1. Could I have a source? I am interested in learning about genetic impact on psychopathy. At this moment I don't think genetics make people cruel, a psychopath or so on. I know genes change things in your mind, as in my long post. But I don't think psychopacy or actual cruelness is directly caused by genetics.
2. But if I take your post litirally, and read "LINKS", then you are right. Since being born more impulsive or emotive (genetically), more easly influenced etc... as I said in my long post does give you a little bit more chance to BECOME a psychopath later on.
 

chance

predictably random
Forum Staff
Moderator
@chance: As I said, i misread your post.
I understand. Wasn't trying to pile on. We both posted at almost the same time, so I didn't see your comment.

I do agree that genetics can influence aspects of personality, and perhaps the tendency toward certain behavior. The age-old question is to what degree. Results from studies are more suggestive than definitive. And even definitive results wouldn't suggest people are predetermined automatons, and slaves to their genetics. (Not that you suggested that.)
 
L

Law

Guest
No, and I agree with you that we mustn't use genetics to explain away the atrocities of the holocaust, (using genetics to explain things comes ironically close to Nazism : P ) I was merely observing that given genetics and upbringing effect our capacity for psychopathy, an individual as infamous as Hitler was very likely to have both things responsible for the what he did. Just as both our genetics and upbringing are responsible for all our lives.
 

Gamer (ex-Cantavanda)

〜Flower Prince〜
I see, Law, but, do you agree that the upbringing has more influence then the genetics? I mean, way more, even though genetics influence it a bit? If yes, we share mostly the same opinion then.
 
S

StuffandThings85

Guest
I think it's always a good idea to try to understand how people like that become the way they do. I know it doesn't really excuse what they did, but it helps to understand what 'created' these people to begin with. It's definitely possible that they could turn out differently, but as others have said there are many other factors involved.

Take Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) for example. Both of these men grew up in what most would consider a loving home. The problem with Ted Bundy, though, is that he grew up thinking that his true mother was his 'sister', and his 'grandmother' was his mother. He didn't find out about his true identity until sometime in his 20's, causing an acute identity crisis along with the breakup of his girlfriend he was in love with. His mother had him at a very young age, so they pretended that Ted was the young mother's little brother to avoid embarrassment. That may not drive everyone to murder, but you can still see how that would affect someone mentally.

And David Berkowitz. Again, he grew up in a loving home with great parents who seemed to do everything right. He also found out later in life that he was actually adopted, and never knew his real parents. His birth mother gave him up for adoption almost immediately. This brief period without infantile bonding may have contributed to psychological problems, along with the shock of being adopted/given up and realizing your true parents didn't want you in the first place. Again, this may not drive you and I to murder, but it's certainly understandable how that could take its toll on someone psyche.

With the slight exception of these two, people usually don't just go insane and want to kill for no reason. Sure, genetics/family history of mental illness play their part, but that still doesn't guarantee they will turn out that way. Evil is created through a terrible upbringing without any means to cope.
 
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