Discussion old enough to sell game?

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BlueCat6123

Guest
I'm only 13 and I have a game I've been working on that I've put a lot of passion into. I'd kinda like to sell it for 2-3 dollars on steam or itch.io when I'm done.

Is that even legal? Do I just need parental assistance?
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
There is no such thing as being legally too young to sell a game. It's just that as a minor, you cannot sign binding contracts on your own and be legally accountable to it, another adult guarantor has to do it for you. That makes it much harder for vendors to want to do business with you, but not impossible.

But there is such thing as being too early in your skill development to sell products as a business. Being passionate about something doesn't mean you won't suck at it. There are plenty of stupid things you can do that are legal, and jumping the gun on the amateur-professional divide is one of them.

For starters, if I can expect to find the same kind of graphics in your games as in your avatar, hell yes, that's what "too early" looks like.

Feel free to share them, get critique, upgrade yourself and keep working in your spare time. But only a complete idiot would try to sell any of their first few creations on Steam. That's the time for making huge mistakes and learning from them, make them in private for free instead of in public for money.
 

Bearman_18

Fruit Stand Deadbeat
Goodness! You started way younger than I did, and you already have something to sell! I really feel optimistic about this generation. What's your game called?
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
Goodness! You started way younger than I did, and you already have something to sell! I really feel optimistic about this generation. What's your game called?
Do you know the difference between having something you want to sell, and something actually worth selling?

I also made my first game around that age. But I had the sense to only pass it around my circle of friends for free, not for sale on high street. I knew it was a far shot from being something a reasonable person would want to buy.

Irrational encouragement and the "self-esteem" movement it spawns are reasons to feel pessimistic about this generation. Quit fuelling it.
 

Mercerenies

Member
Tell us how you really feel, Frosty. o.o

Really, I think you're being a bit too harsh on the guy. It won't be the next Skyrim, sure, but there's nothing wrong with giving it a shot. If you consider that he had fun making the game, then it's still a success even if not one person buys it, and every single person who does buy it (even if it's just friends, family, etc.) is just a nice bonus on top of that. And that goes double if he has a free trial or "pay what you want" type of thing. Everybody loves a success story; I wouldn't be surprised if something like that did sell a few copies.
 
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MishMash

Guest
From a legal standpoint, the easiest thing to do is just to do the legal documentation in your parents name, I had to do this for kickstarter back in the day. However, as someone who is 13, you have all the time in the world to both develop, learn and improve your craft. I would say it's worth releasing a few games for free and really focus on enjoying the process and building quality. That is not to say there's anything wrong with releasing a game, at some points age doesn't matter, however you may get more value from a project which is more accessible to a larger pool of people, equally, you may not want to have to deal with the stress and admin work that is involved with releasing a game. For example, dealing with tax and all this and that.

If you have a game ready already, then fair enough, might as well go for it! For myself, I never released a commercial game at that age, though I did run a freeware games site which ultimately acquired 22,000 registered users with over 100,000 game downloads on it, this was when I was 14-16. Ad revenue also made me a fair bit of money, and the experience from building the game and also growing a community has seemingly set me up quite well for where I am today. I used to have a burning desire to try and rush for success, hoping to be a prodigy and break the mould. However, after a nice slap of reality hit me in the face, I realised I couldn't achieve both the quality of project I was gunning for and also complete an education successfully at the same time. The strains being the financial burden of not being able to afford much for the project, and equally not having enough time to make significant progress. Though now, I am pretty much at peace with where I am, knowing that I have far far more experience now than I did then, and my project is far better for it. Knowing what I know now, I know I wouldn't have had the skill necessary to even complete the game without running into huge technical landmines 3-4 years ago.

Though it is good to have ambition, and sometimes it does take trying these things to find out for yourself, so do what you want, but again remember there is no rush to the commercial market, especially when you have so much opportunity to develop games for fun. The last thing you want to do is suck the fun out of it by only being motivated by the prospect of financial reward. If this happens, then the game itself wont mean as much to you. Another thing that can happen is IF your game ends up not being up to par (I can't comment as I don't know what the game is), you could end up getting negative feedback, and negative feedback on the internet can really damage your mental health and confidence in the long term. Even if its just one person telling you that you are s**t, vs 100s of other people who believe in you, it can honestly burn, and unless you are ready to accept that and brush it off, I would also be careful there as well. Just because it has the potential to ruin game dev for you.
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
Tell us how you really feel, Frosty. o.o

Really, I think you're being a bit too harsh on the guy. It won't be the next Skyrim, sure, but there's nothing wrong with giving it a shot. If you consider that he had fun making the game, then it's still a success even if not one person buys it, and every single person who does buy it (even if it's just friends, family, etc.) is just a nice bonus on top of that. And that goes double if he has a free trial or "pay what you want" type of thing. Everybody loves a success story; I wouldn't be surprised if something like that did sell a few copies.
If it won't be the next Skyrim, then is it really that disagreeable to call a spade a spade and treat it like one?

If the original poster is only doing it for fun and handing it out among family and friends, then I agree, who am I to stop that? But the instant "Steam" got mentioned, that's when I knew in conscience that I cannot give it any encouragement. That would be every bit unrealistic as it would be destructive.

While you're at it, read this anecdote about Mark Overmars giving similar advice to an eager teenage developer almost 2 decades ago:
You see, back in the Game Maker 3 days, there weren't a whole lot of people around. So, in turn, not a whole lot of competition. And not a whole lot of great games. So I set out to make my dream game: a platformer. It was my first game. So I set out on a story, and came up with the idea of a fish accused of assassinating the president, and running from the law.

Uh...yeah. But wait, it gets better.

So after knowing what it was about, I set out on searching the entire web for images. Almost none of the images in this game are made by me. The only thing I really made was the bullets that fired from the guns (and even that looked bad).

And, believe it or not, I was REALLY focused on selling it. In the version below, you'll see ads on how to buy the game, etc.

But I never got that far. I sent it to Mark Overmars, creator of Game Maker, for his consideration to place on his website. His response? I still remember it today.

"Your game does a lot of things, but none of them very well. Sorry."

Well, I was crushed. I had no idea the game was so bad. I thought it was the best game ever. So there ya go.

Truth is, I am proud of some things in this game. The Spyhunter levels are fun. The underwater "Pitch Black" level was so good (in concept), I want to remake it for another game. And the voice done by my friend was priceless. (One scene about the disgruntled postal workers is great.)

So, to all the Game Makers out there just starting: You may not succeed at first, but you will eventually. Just try this game to see what I mean. (oh, and I came up with the name myself without even realizing what it actually meant. UGH!)
This erstwhile teenage developer is now one of the biggest names in GM commercial development, with annual sales in the 6-digit USD range.

If you're looking for a success story, that would be it.
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
@FrostyCat What is the guys name? I'm assuming it was a guy called 'David Galindo'? Are his biggest games made with GM or something??
It is David Galindo, and his biggest hit so far is the Cook, Serve, Delicious series (which stemmed from his Ore no Ryomi series a decade ago). All of his products thus far are made with various versions of GM, save a PlayStation port of one of his earlier games.
 

Rivo

7014
It is David Galindo, and his biggest hit so far is the Cook, Serve, Delicious series (which stemmed from his Ore no Ryomi series a decade ago). All of his products thus far are made with various versions of GM, save a PlayStation port of one of his earlier games.
That's great stuff, thank you :)
 

Bearman_18

Fruit Stand Deadbeat
I guess I'm optimistic and encouraging because I feel that it's a really good thing that he's starting so young. His first game probably won't be very good, but the spark of originality will still be there, and in the mean time he'll make all of the mistakes he needs to make while he's young. So I guess I wouldn't be optimistic about this particular game, but I would be about his future in game dev. Though, personally, I wouldn't charge money, I would release it as freeware and look for feedback.

Edit- And I wouldn't say that people's course of action is idiotic, and I definitely wouldn't insult his avatar. He's still to young for that kind of abuse. Just calmly explain what you think is a better course of action. If he's smart, he'll appreciate that. (Lol, besides @FrostyCat, you have a really good avatar, and I hope you aren't comparing his to yours. Many great games have had worse graphics than his avatar.)
 
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Alessio

Guest
His first game probably won't be very good
That's because it's highly unlikely that any 13 year old teen manages to make a professional game. But if they start right now, they might be very experienced game designers after, and if they got an interest in programming, they're going to be professional programmers as well. I wish i started doing that back then. I wish i learned to use any popular game making tool of the time.
 
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Bearman_18

Fruit Stand Deadbeat
I agree @Alessio .
Also, @FrostyCat , I reread your post a few times, and realized that you were just trying to be more objective than mean, and made you out to be meaner than you actually are. Sorry, Frosty! We all just want @BlueCat6123 to do well.
 
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BlueCat6123

Guest
There is no such thing as being legally too young to sell a game. It's just that as a minor, you cannot sign binding contracts on your own and be legally accountable to it, another adult guarantor has to do it for you. That makes it much harder for vendors to want to do business with you, but not impossible.

But there is such thing as being too early in your skill development to sell products as a business. Being passionate about something doesn't mean you won't suck at it. There are plenty of stupid things you can do that are legal, and jumping the gun on the amateur-professional divide is one of them.

For starters, if I can expect to find the same kind of graphics in your games as in your avatar, hell yes, that's what "too early" looks like.

Feel free to share them, get critique, upgrade yourself and keep working in your spare time. But only a complete idiot would try to sell any of their first few creations on Steam. That's the time for making huge mistakes and learning from them, make them in private for free instead of in public for money.
thank you so much for you response !! Helped me understand a lot better and helped me think about how to approach this all. I am pretty new to developing (only like year and a half doing it) so it's does seem right to take things slower.

also so sorry for the late response
 
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BlueCat6123

Guest
Goodness! You started way younger than I did, and you already have something to sell! I really feel optimistic about this generation. What's your game called?
lol it's not done yet but it's called Book of Paracosms. I've got a LOT more stuff I still haven't even touched on yet

here's a couple screenshots tho, just know the game looks pretty eh now cause I'm the only one doing the art
upload_2018-8-8_11-19-33.png
upload_2018-8-8_11-24-58.png
 
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BlueCat6123

Guest
Tell us how you really feel, Frosty. o.o

Really, I think you're being a bit too harsh on the guy. It won't be the next Skyrim, sure, but there's nothing wrong with giving it a shot. If you consider that he had fun making the game, then it's still a success even if not one person buys it, and every single person who does buy it (even if it's just friends, family, etc.) is just a nice bonus on top of that. And that goes double if he has a free trial or "pay what you want" type of thing. Everybody loves a success story; I wouldn't be surprised if something like that did sell a few copies.
yeah I've been pushing more towards the "pay what you want" idea for a while anyway
 
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BlueCat6123

Guest
From a legal standpoint, the easiest thing to do is just to do the legal documentation in your parents name, I had to do this for kickstarter back in the day. However, as someone who is 13, you have all the time in the world to both develop, learn and improve your craft. I would say it's worth releasing a few games for free and really focus on enjoying the process and building quality. That is not to say there's anything wrong with releasing a game, at some points age doesn't matter, however you may get more value from a project which is more accessible to a larger pool of people, equally, you may not want to have to deal with the stress and admin work that is involved with releasing a game. For example, dealing with tax and all this and that.

If you have a game ready already, then fair enough, might as well go for it! For myself, I never released a commercial game at that age, though I did run a freeware games site which ultimately acquired 22,000 registered users with over 100,000 game downloads on it, this was when I was 14-16. Ad revenue also made me a fair bit of money, and the experience from building the game and also growing a community has seemingly set me up quite well for where I am today. I used to have a burning desire to try and rush for success, hoping to be a prodigy and break the mould. However, after a nice slap of reality hit me in the face, I realised I couldn't achieve both the quality of project I was gunning for and also complete an education successfully at the same time. The strains being the financial burden of not being able to afford much for the project, and equally not having enough time to make significant progress. Though now, I am pretty much at peace with where I am, knowing that I have far far more experience now than I did then, and my project is far better for it. Knowing what I know now, I know I wouldn't have had the skill necessary to even complete the game without running into huge technical landmines 3-4 years ago.

Though it is good to have ambition, and sometimes it does take trying these things to find out for yourself, so do what you want, but again remember there is no rush to the commercial market, especially when you have so much opportunity to develop games for fun. The last thing you want to do is suck the fun out of it by only being motivated by the prospect of financial reward. If this happens, then the game itself wont mean as much to you. Another thing that can happen is IF your game ends up not being up to par (I can't comment as I don't know what the game is), you could end up getting negative feedback, and negative feedback on the internet can really damage your mental health and confidence in the long term. Even if its just one person telling you that you are s**t, vs 100s of other people who believe in you, it can honestly burn, and unless you are ready to accept that and brush it off, I would also be careful there as well. Just because it has the potential to ruin game dev for you.
thanks for this, man! Probably the most insightful reply I've read here tbh. I know it's not the best to be focused of hitting it big and motivation by money, and I really trying not to do that. I try more to focus on when I release the game and all my friends can play it instead and give me genuine feedback (because I know them out of all people will). Also thinking about a "pay what you want" type thing, it really seems more reasonable now.

I really like the way you described trying rush for success and breaking the mould. It's really helpful to get actual feedback from actual people who actually went through that need to be a success. Thanks so much again !
 
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Thunder Lion

Guest
I'm only 13 and I have a game I've been working on that I've put a lot of passion into. I'd kinda like to sell it for 2-3 dollars on steam or itch.io when I'm done.

Is that even legal? Do I just need parental assistance?
Not illegal but like some said, you may need to get an adult to basically cosign you in some way. I think it really depends. You will need a bank account to route any earning to yourself for one so you will need a parent to get a bank account. At your age I had one, in fact my elementary school had a program to get us to do just that. But besides legal contracts and a bank account you are pretty good to go. I think taxes are another element you will need tour parent's help in. However I do not think I'm able to give you legitimate legal advice as I am not learnt in that respect and I don't even know where you live and the laws that may apply.

I also for one think that you should definitely publish your game. I do not want to assume its bad or good but want to encourage you at any quality as long as the game works you should publish it. This will help you learn the process of all the things that you must learn to publish your game and will greatly benefit you. My first Android app was published this year and it was definitely a learning curve for me. Stay up with the times young ser and it will serve you well.
Also please make sure you are using assests like sprites, music, sounds and intellectual properties (story series for example Super Mario, Dragon Ball, Pokemon) that you own as this can get your game taken down and at worse have you banned from using a platform and under legal trouble, although you being a kid could save you from something legitimate with just a shutdown of your game.

Next you want to consider play testing your game with friends and family to see if there are any issues prior to official launch. Perhaps you have a glitch or UI issue that prevents a completely new player from playing your game as intended. Also be prepared to take screen captures and make banners for your icho and steam or other platform pages, which I assume you are aware of most of this already. Best hopes for you and if you make it big with any projects all I ask is for a pearl white Lambo!
 
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Alessio

Guest
lol it's not done yet but it's called Book of Paracosms. I've got a LOT more stuff I still haven't even touched on yet

here's a couple screenshots tho, just know the game looks pretty eh now cause I'm the only one doing the art
As something made by a 13 years old it looks pretty decent at first impact, adult game makers do stuff that looks tens of times worse. Not sure if it's going to be a sellable product but in few years you might be a quite experienced game maker. Though i don't know how it plays.
 
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BlueCat6123

Guest
Not illegal but like some said, you may need to get an adult to basically cosign you in some way. I think it really depends. You will need a bank account to route any earning to yourself for one so you will need a parent to get a bank account. At your age I had one, in fact my elementary school had a program to get us to do just that. But besides legal contracts and a bank account you are pretty good to go. I think taxes are another element you will need tour parent's help in. However I do not think I'm able to give you legitimate legal advice as I am not learnt in that respect and I don't even know where you live and the laws that may apply.

I also for one think that you should definitely publish your game. I do not want to assume its bad or good but want to encourage you at any quality as long as the game works you should publish it. This will help you learn the process of all the things that you must learn to publish your game and will greatly benefit you. My first Android app was published this year and it was definitely a learning curve for me. Stay up with the times young ser and it will serve you well.
Also please make sure you are using assests like sprites, music, sounds and intellectual properties (story series for example Super Mario, Dragon Ball, Pokemon) that you own as this can get your game taken down and at worse have you banned from using a platform and under legal trouble, although you being a kid could save you from something legitimate with just a shutdown of your game.

Next you want to consider play testing your game with friends and family to see if there are any issues prior to official launch. Perhaps you have a glitch or UI issue that prevents a completely new player from playing your game as intended. Also be prepared to take screen captures and make banners for your icho and steam or other platform pages, which I assume you are aware of most of this already. Best hopes for you and if you make it big with any projects all I ask is for a pearl white Lambo!
thanks for the response !! It's kinda funny, everything you mentioned i seem to be doing. I do all of the music, art and stuffs and get my friends to playtest as much as possible, so it's nice to know I'm doing the right thing there. I appreciate all the advice I can get!


Best hopes for you and if you make it big with any projects all I ask is for a pearl white Lambo!
ᶦ ʷᵒⁿᵗ ᶠᵒʳᵍᵉᵗ ʸᵒᵘ ʷʰᵉⁿ ᶦᵐ ᶠᵃᵐᵒᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘᵘˢ :>
 
But the instant "Steam" got mentioned, that's when I knew in conscience that I cannot give it any encouragement.
Have you seen half the games on Steam? :'D

Kotaku just did an article about a seven year old who put her game up there with help from her dad. Nothing terrible happened to her, and she seemed pretty happy. I think our OP here will be fine, even without you jumping up and going "but you're a KID. Your game probably isn't even WORTH selling! When I was your age, I was smart enough not to bother people with my games!" :p

I'm still really curious about what games you've made, too. You're constantly giving people advice like this, so I'm always wondering what you've made, hahah!
 

Rivo

7014
Have you seen half the games on Steam? :'D

Kotaku just did an article about a seven year old who put her game up there with help from her dad. Nothing terrible happened to her, and she seemed pretty happy. I think our OP here will be fine, even without you jumping up and going "but you're a KID. Your game probably isn't even WORTH selling! When I was your age, I was smart enough not to bother people with my games!" :p

I'm still really curious about what games you've made, too. You're constantly giving people advice like this, so I'm always wondering what you've made, hahah!
Welp... Here he goes again! XD @FrostyCat Don't take the bait.
 
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Welp... Here he goes again! XD
I'm genuinely curious about FrostyCat is working on, though. I just have no idea what to expect, hahah. I always see him giving really harsh advice, so I'm always wondering "is he making something amazing? Is he making something terrible? Is he making nothing at all?" I want to know where his harsh advice comes from!
 
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Xolkiyr

Guest
Kinda ignoring the rest of the posts(though don't get me wrong, I did read them) but I'd definitely go the itch.io route.
 
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Triangle

Guest
For what it's worth, I think publishing is a good idea! Even if it doesn't get much attention, every dollar from a purchase gives you a great feeling, and it puts you already far ahead of many of us (including me) who haven't made any money off of our games. I don't see anything inherently wrong with publishing to Steam if you want, but do keep in mind it might be a hassle. It might be better to publish it elsewhere initially for simplicity. Congratulations on your game, and may you have many successes in the future!
 

Bearman_18

Fruit Stand Deadbeat
@RichHopelessComposer you should ask him. He's harsh, but he's very intelligent, he's gotta have something worth looking at, probably just doesnt talk about it.
I think his project is aiming his harshness at yoyo. Lol. Gotta love that guy! (Hes one of the first to ever help me on these forums)
 
@Bearman_18: I quoted him earlier in the thread, but he didn't answer. If he wants to share, he can share, but if not, that's fine too. It doesn't really matter either way. I'm curious about everyone's games, hahah.
 
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