backtracking in metroidvanias.

pixeltroid

Member
most metroidvanias often make the player backtrack to a locked area after acquiring a key or item. this, I feel, makes good use of the open ended environment. but how much of it is too much?

in my project, there are times when the player needs to go through rooms A, B, C, D to go to room E. In room E he needs to do something that opens a locked area in room A. then he has to backtrack all the way from room E to A to access the newly unlocked area.

I felt it might be too tedious for the player, so I introduced teleporters so the hero teleports just near the newly unlocked area.

this makes me think: If I'm just going to have the player teleport to room A, why bother placing a locked area there? why not place the area after room E?

but if I did that, then I feel it defeats the purpose of having a complex, maze like, open world design intended to test the players memory.

I think I'm looking for a balance between having an open environment and not having the player backtrack too much.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
Does backtracking feel rewarding to the player in other ways than simply getting to the destination?

If combat is fun, and there's loot to be had, I don't see a problem with it. Hollow Knight does it very well.
 

csanyk

Member
most metroidvanias often make the player backtrack to a locked area after acquiring a key or item. this, I feel, makes good use of the open ended environment. but how much of it is too much?

in my project, there are times when the player needs to go through rooms A, B, C, D to go to room E. In room E he needs to do something that opens a locked area in room A. then he has to backtrack all the way from room E to A to access the newly unlocked area.

I felt it might be too tedious for the player, so I introduced teleporters so the hero teleports just near the newly unlocked area.

this makes me think: If I'm just going to have the player teleport to room A, why bother placing a locked area there? why not place the area after room E?

but if I did that, then I feel it defeats the purpose of having a complex, maze like, open world design intended to test the players memory.

I think I'm looking for a balance between having an open environment and not having the player backtrack too much.
Backtracking is fine, but there's a right way and a less right way to do it. If you've cleared out an area and have a long walk back to where you came from, that's going to be boring and tedious for the player. You have to make the experience new again.

There are a few ways to do it, probably more if you're really creative. Off the top of my head:
  1. Change the environment somehow as a result of the player accomplishing the goal of that area.
    1. Perhaps it's now flooded, or on fire, or some other environmental effect.
    2. Perhaps the lights are out.
    3. Perhaps power is restored, and now automatic machinery is re-activated and dangerous.
    4. Perhaps the player gained a new ability that makes travelling through the level different, or enables them to reach parts that were inaccessible before.
    5. Perhaps the enemy has been alerted to your presence, and has sent reinforcements.
    6. Perhaps there's a timed self destruct for the area and you have to escape in time.
    7. etc.
  2. Lay out the level so that the end of the level has looped around almost to back where the player started. Now they don't have to backtrack so much as proceed one more screen, passing through a 1-way door, or ascending/descending forward through a long vertical shaft, and they're back at the start of the area. Or give them a teleporter. Or a vehicle to ride. Or a cinematic scene, at the end of which we fade to the player in the next area where they needed to go.
  3. Now you're back in the area that you've been before. Things should be different. It should look familiar, but changed, as a result of what has happened in the game. Now you can make that jump to get where you couldn't before. Now you can destroy the blocks that were preventing you from getting somewhere. Etc. But make the room look/feel different, also. Maybe it's a different point in the day/night cycle. Maybe things have deteriorated since you first arrived here. Maybe there are new creatures about, of a power level suited to give you challenge even with your newly acquired abilities.
 

11clock

Member
An Untitled Story lets you teleport between save points. I think more metroidvanias should do this tbh, really convenient.
 
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Delirious

Guest
Create a shortcut from E to the beginning of C. Maybe a one-way door the player passed by the first time, but couldn't enter. Or a ladder that can be kicked down (a la dark souls). However, this would force you to place area E above or below area C, so it would take careful planning.

But, depending on the size of your rooms, I don't think back tracking 4 rooms is all that big of a deal. Just have the enemies/encounters be designed to feel different when approached from the other side. This would add length to your game without having to really add anything.
 

NazGhuL

NazTaiL
In my opinion, it can happen 1 or 2 times. The rest, a teleporter, a level 'loop', unlocking a door that leads to the start.
Or you change/add things to the level as the player backtrack. It adds fun to the player and a second life to the hallway! ;)
Here is a Nice video:
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
If backtracking is totally out of question, consider how Ori and Skyrim dungeons handle this.

You wander through a whole area, and at the end, you are able to access a shortcut back to near the place you started. Not teleportation, just clever layout design to make the main area long but winding on itself as much as possible, so that the end point is physically close enough to the start.
 

Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
Some things worth considering:
  • Backtracking the same way is boring, taking an alternate path back is still technically new content.
  • If the key is a new ability, the player could use it to take shortcuts or trivialize previous obstacles (after all, they've shown they mastered them!)
  • One-way doors and elevators that were originally turned off, or other such "shortcuts once you reach the other side" could help speed up travelling.
  • We all are going to die, wasting time is a sin.
 

Genetix

Member
I built a top down shooter once where you would work your way through a level taking out guards and such forth until completing a final task. At that point you would have to return to the start of the level to be extracted by helicopter - However alarms would go off and new waves of enemies would start to trickle in from certain points. Combined with wailing alarms and lights it gave the final portion of the stages a sense of pressure and felt very rewarding when completing.

In this case, maybe by gaining access to that next room after A they unleash some nasty new enemies or even a boss fight on their way back that wasn't there before.

If you've ever seen Indiana Jones, the same concept applies. He makes his way to the end of a temple, grabs the treasure and then all hell breaks loose.

Good luck!
 

RangerX

Member
This is the hardest part about making a Metroidvania. Even most pro games don't get it right, expect the master of all masters: Super Metroid.
This game does a handful of tricks in order to make backtracking a real joy:

- Newly gained abilities that let's you backtrack by another path
- If you backtrack the same path, new abilities should make it easier/fast or more fun
- Make the backtracking worth it! Make some new enemies appear, have secrets reachable with that newly gained ability
- Have landmarks the player can't wait to go back to (huge statue with gems in Brinstar, glass tube in Maridia)
- Use looping areas

Other thoughts:

- Avoid teleportation, this sounds like a cheap way to backtrack your poor design unless its really pulling out from far.
- Is your game fun when you play it or you're annoyed at the backtracking? If you feel its annoying -- this mean you have to redesign that area.
- Reward exploration properly. Seriously, think about this. Focus on this.
 
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Ampersand

Guest
This is the hardest about making a Metroidvania. Even most pro games don't get it right, expect the master of all masters: Super Metroid.
This game does a handful of tricks in order to make backtracking a real joy:

- Newly gained abilities that let's you backtrack by another path
- If you backtrack the same path, new abilities should make it easier/fast or more fun
- Make the backtracking worth it! Make some new enemies appear, have secrets reachable with that newly gained ability
- Have landmarks the player can't wait to go back to (huge statue with gems in Brinstar, glass tube in Maridia)
- Use looping areas

Other thoughts:

- Avoid teleportation, this sounds like a cheap way to backtrack your poor design unless its really pulling out from far.
- Is your game fun when you play it or you're annoyed at the backtracking? If you feel its annoying -- this mean you have to redesign that area.
- Reward exploration properly. Seriously, think about this. Focus on this.
Another game that follows all these mentioned rules (and really the whole series, but most specifically) is A Link to the Past. Great use of space, what was really not the largest world felt absolutely massive thanks to clever re-use and re-exploration of areas. Same applied to dungeons, some dungeons felt like they took more time to traverse than the whole game world did.
 
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Deleted member 13992

Guest
- Reward exploration properly. Seriously, think about this. Focus on this.
This is super important.

Also,

Flesh out your world, make the environment tell a story, visually, make even non-combat areas a pleasure to go through more than once.
 

pixeltroid

Member
All great ideas, guys.

I feel the one that's best suited to my project is the one suggested by @Delirious -- to send the player halfway back to the starting point. Its a good balance between making use of the open world and not making the player backtrack.

The main reason I felt the need to cut down on backtracking is to save players time and nothing else. I have designed my project to suit players attention spans and patience. This isn't the 90s where a player can be expected to patiently figure out where to go and what to do in the game. Today, no-name indie game developers don't stand a chance at testing players patience. No matter how ingenious your level layouts are, players will discard your game if they find it too tedious or if they don't "get" it.

My goal is to encourage the player to keep playing till the end. And I feel hand-holding them (by providing shortcuts and teleports)
would help make them feel like they are progressing in the game.
 
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Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
Another random level design tip... I've been replaying Dark Souls III recently, and I spotted a bunch of clever level design things I didn't before. Most notably, the devs constantly put item orbs near shortcuts, so you're likely to go near them and see the shortcut when you're exploring. And sometimes items are placed at vantage points so you can see a later area down a valley, or be likely to face towards a Dangerous Thing (TM) you might wanna take care approaching later.
 

RangerX

Member
All great ideas, guys.

I feel the one that's best suited to my project is the one suggested by @Delirious -- to send the player halfway back to the starting point. Its a good balance between making use of the open world and not making the player backtrack.

The main reason I felt the need to cut down on backtracking is to save players time and nothing else. I have designed my project to suit players attention spans and patience. This isn't the 90s where a player can be expected to patiently figure out where to go and what to do in the game. Today, no-name indie game developers don't stand a chance at testing players patience. No matter how ingenious your level layouts are, players will discard your game if they find it too tedious or if they don't "get" it.

My goal is to encourage the player to keep playing till the end. And I feel hand-holding them (by providing shortcuts and teleports)
would help make them feel like they are progressing in the game.
If you making this game because its your revenue for this year, I can understand. Else I can't agree with this design philosophy. You're making a genre of game because you want to reach a certain audience. Care for that audience and reach for them, don't try to please people that "don't get it", it's not their genre and as a matter of fact, they won't like your game anyways. In my humble opinion. I prefer pleasing a particular audience and having my game great for them. This way, if new gamers like it, its fine and people liking the genre will probably like it. If you play the "I will try to make what all people want" approach, you end up having a game that might not please its own audience much and people not liking the genre that you're trying to get will probably don't like it much anyways because they also understand "genres" and have their own interest. This ends up being a game that tries to cater to everybody and therefore pleases nobody...

Just my 2 cents ;)
 

pixeltroid

Member
If you making this game because its your revenue for this year, I can understand. Else I can't agree with this design philosophy. You're making a genre of game because you want to reach a certain audience. Care for that audience and reach for them, don't try to please people that "don't get it", it's not their genre and as a matter of fact, they won't like your game anyways. In my humble opinion. I prefer pleasing a particular audience and having my game great for them.
I am designing the levels keeping nobody but the metroidvania fans as the audience.

however, i feel that in a time where the indie scene is over saturated with (better made) metroidvanias, the best way to keep metroidvania fans engaged in my humble noob project would be to at least make it easier for them to go from point A to B.

I haven't been able to implement things like maps, double jumps, dozen items, save slots etc. so I'm trying to make sure I get the player to experience the most out of whatever I have.
 

JackTurbo

Member
If you eliminate backtracking from your game too much via teleportation then you may as well just make it a regular level based platformer rather than a metroidvania.

Designing your world with shortcuts that you can unlock from one side/only access with certain abilities etc, is in my opinion a much better approach.

Thats not to say that a certain amount of fast travel isnt a good idea if your world is particularly big, just dont over do it imho. I think Hollow Knight struct this balance really well with their stag stations.
 

Hyomoto

Member
The most recent example I can think of is 'Steam World Dig 2'. You keep traversing the same few environments, but based on your items you can make it a little further. The backtracking is largely limited to either A) going to dump gems, or B) looking for secrets. The thing is, though, that as you gain more abilities such as the jetpack and the grappling hook, it becomes more fun to traverse those spaces as well. And given it's not really mandatory, it's not really a huge issue for the player.

Back tracking by itself isn't a bad thing: it's just covering ground you've already seen. The question then becomes why are you back tracking? In some games it's used to pad out the length, and that's can be the most egregious waste of a player's time. If you couple that with slow or uninteresting movement, players are bound to hate it. However, maybe you earn a new ability to climb walls or do a double jump, and suddenly traversing old spaces *might* be more fun simply because it's a familiar area and you now have a new way to overcome some old obstacle. As long as the player is making progress towards something and having fun, they aren't likely to care. Consider the following thought exercise: take one of the most iconic levels in gaming, World 1-1 in Super Mario Bros for the NES. If you aren't familiar with it, check out a video. Now pretend you had to make a game and this was the only level you could use, and you need the player to traverse it 8 times. Start at the left and continue right, eight times. How can you make this experience more compelling?

If Mario has the same abilities and the same experience all eight times, they aren't likely to want to sit through it. But what if Mario couldn't jump on enemies or break blocks, and had a limited jump height: it would change how they had to approach the level. If each time they cleared it you gave them a new ability, they'd be able to experience the stage in a slightly different way each time. By the end they'd be able to stomp on enemies, jump high, break blocks and throw fireballs. Despite being the same stage, they are able to fly through it and cause mayhem along the way. They've went through the same thirty second level 8 times, but because they could play with something new each time it wasn't as detrimental. They had a sense of progression and the map opened up to them. That's all Metroid's backtracking is at it's core: a large map that slowly opens up and becomes easier to traverse the longer the player plays it.

To sum up: if the only point of back tracking is to pad out how many minutes the game takes, you are doing it wrong. But even a frugal map can entertain the player through multiple passes. At some point the player will want a new challenge, something new to see and do, and in the case of the Mario example we've made traversing the same level eight times more interesting but the player is probably going to be sick of that level by the time we are done. You have to balance the two, but it isn't something you have to arbitrarily avoid.
 
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Yal

šŸ§ *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
That reminds me, this video does a pretty good job of analyzing backtracking in Axiom Verge:


Most notably takeaway is that your map has a lot of rooms you only saw one screen of, because the obstacles you can't pass without a new power always are inside a corridor or such, right next to the door. You can instantly realize you need to turn back (without having to waste time getting through an area only to figure out you can't pass at the very end), and when you don't know where to go next, the map has a lot of unexplored territory you can head back to.
 

11clock

Member
If you making this game because its your revenue for this year, I can understand. Else I can't agree with this design philosophy. You're making a genre of game because you want to reach a certain audience. Care for that audience and reach for them, don't try to please people that "don't get it", it's not their genre and as a matter of fact, they won't like your game anyways. In my humble opinion. I prefer pleasing a particular audience and having my game great for them. This way, if new gamers like it, its fine and people liking the genre will probably like it. If you play the "I will try to make what all people want" approach, you end up having a game that might not please its own audience much and people not liking the genre that you're trying to get will probably don't like it much anyways because they also understand "genres" and have their own interest. This ends up being a game that tries to cater to everybody and therefore pleases nobody...

Just my 2 cents ;)
FYI I despise the Metroid games, yet I love the Metroidvania genre, and the metroidvanias I particularly like are those that respect my time by reducing unnecessary backtracking and donā€™t leave me lost without any direction on where to go. An Untitled Story, though, is really good at giving you an idea on where to go without a single word nor waypoint. I find it impossible to get lost in it.

Perhaps some of us like the metroidvania genre now because of modernized changes to the formula, such as myself.
 

RangerX

Member
FYI I despise the Metroid games, yet I love the Metroidvania genre, and the metroidvanias I particularly like are those that respect my time by reducing unnecessary backtracking and donā€™t leave me lost without any direction on where to go. An Untitled Story, though, is really good at giving you an idea on where to go without a single word nor waypoint. I find it impossible to get lost in it.

Perhaps some of us like the metroidvania genre now because of modernized changes to the formula, such as myself.
That's the thing. In well done Metroidvanias, backtracking is not too much and is interesting because well done. Here again, Super Metroid. You can't get lost in that game and yet, you feel like exploring and discovering stuff for yourself.
And as you can hear in the video above posted by Yal, I agree with the guy in there. There's basically a couple of well done Metroidvania that will fulfill your sense of exploration without becoming tedious and there's a truckload of "less good" ones or Metroidvania-ish games that takes you by the hand way too much.

I think most Metroidvanias are still good games because we like platformers and other genres incorporated in it. To be making a really good Metroidvania is actually very hard and I wonder if people realise that. Even my game The Life Ruby (that I call Metroidvania) is in fact a "Metroidvania-light" more than the real thing.
 

11clock

Member
That's the thing. In well done Metroidvanias, backtracking is not too much and is interesting because well done. Here again, Super Metroid. You can't get lost in that game and yet, you feel like exploring and discovering stuff for yourself.
And as you can hear in the video above posted by Yal, I agree with the guy in there. There's basically a couple of well done Metroidvania that will fulfill your sense of exploration without becoming tedious and there's a truckload of "less good" ones or Metroidvania-ish games that takes you by the hand way too much.

I think most Metroidvanias are still good games because we like platformers and other genres incorporated in it. To be making a really good Metroidvania is actually very hard and I wonder if people realise that. Even my game The Life Ruby (that I call Metroidvania) is in fact a "Metroidvania-light" more than the real thing.
I tried Super Metroid and kept getting lost. The areas all look the same (besides a jungle area I came across) and I had no idea where to go or what to do at times. As said I do not like Metroid but like metroidvanias, An Untitled Story being my favorite for some reasons given (easy-to-navigate map that you canā€™t get lost in, the ability to teleport to any save point from any other save point instantaneously, you get most of your power ups early on and most of the map becomes available by halfway through the game (true non-linearity), etc.)
 
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Ankokushin

Guest
I hear many good points that I agree, which I will list briefly:
-teleportation is cheap
-new abilities change how you play in the same maps
-new abilities may open shortcuts that make sense
-you can now access itens you couldnĀ“t

Well, I did not play many Metroids, but Castlevania-wise, I played almost everything since Symphony of the Night. What I always noticed is the map has a central area (which is usually some corridors and halls) through which you pass many times. But often you only NEED to go to each peripheral area of the castle once. It is like an X with a circle around it.

Symphony
map.gif
Except for the lower dungeons, pretty much every area allows you to enter through a way (from the central area) and get out through another way that eventually reaches the central area.
Everytime the player closes the loop and goes back to central area, he/she feels relief and can choose if they want to review an area they passed before or run straight to the newly unlocked new area.

Arya of Sorrow
map2.gif
 
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poinl

Guest
You can always add events and such that only happen on the way back to make it more interesting.
 
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