The friends of Ringo Ishikawa (closed at author's request)

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yeo

Member
drowned, man, you're annoying as hell.

I don't see a demo of your kickstarter project as well. Or maybe you thought that players don't need a demo to see that your game is garbage only by looking a trailer and screenshots? If so you were right.
 

yeo

Member
Anyway, for something a little more on topic, I kept forgetting to ask about the ping pong gif, are there many more mini games like that? That looks like a lot of fun...
Ping-pong, 8-ball, video poker and shmup (he plays it on TV at his room). I was planning to do dodgeball (as homage a kunio-kun) and boxing, did all the animations but dropped at the end. Don't have time to polish it and I don't want to add something I'm not happy with.
 
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drowned

Guest
Or maybe you thought that players don't need a demo to see that your game is garbage only by looking a trailer and screenshots? If so you were right.
How ad hominem (go ahead, look it up. I'll wait.) of you. Your parenthesis gimmick is stupid. Can't wait for you to launch your "existential beat-em-up" so I can quote the player reviews discussing the repetitive and outdated combat system.

...You could say all of that about a demo, too. Actually, I already did, and presented it as my main problem with demos: it's likely you can show a much broader picture of your game in a trailer in sixty seconds than you can in an hour long demo, depending on how long/slow burning your game is.
Yea you're right I suppose. Your demo could include every single aspect of your game, while everything post-demo is just a repeat. Sort of like Ringo's combat system would be. Thank god for youtube and the people who post playthroughs, I guess.

Did you have a demo for your KS campaign? I don't see one...
I didn't... I really wanted to, but my artist is a lazy, unmotivated slob and I'm not capable of reproducing his animation style. The first act of the game, which would be the demo, is graphically unfinished. I've been trying to find a backup artist for months, but as of yet everyone who's signed on has attempted to do the animations like him and has promptly quit. I've learned quite a few lessons throughout this process.
 
Thank god for youtube and the people who post playthroughs, I guess.
I think that's actually how most people judge whether to buy games they're interested in now, and I think Let's Plays actually give a fairer representation of games than demos do, so I agree with you. Thank God for people playing games on YouTube, haha!
 
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drowned

Guest
So you've failed to make a game
No I haven't. The kickstarter was a setback from which I will learn. I'm already on Steam, and the game will end up there... it's just going to take longer without funding to hire a professional artist.

and now you **** on forums.
No I don't. I offered some constructive criticism which you were incapable of accepting, so you decided to attack me personally. Now I'm giving the same back to you, and you're in tears over it. Come on.

I feel sorry for you, man.
Thanks bud, but I'll be fine.
 

yeo

Member
Losers these days ))

Ok, you can 💩💩💩💩 in my thread as much as you want ) I even welcome you to instill your wisdom )))
 
@drowned: I think yeo is Russian. The closing parentheses are used kind of like emoji there. You can keep posting open brackets in response, but they're not "his gimmick," just a part of Russian net culture, so I don't know how deep your responses are going to cut there. :p
 

Kealor

Member
I think the necessity of a demo is a case-by-case question personally. Though generally getting your project seen by sharing promo-demos to youtubers/pundits/journalists is important, even if you aren't making a fully consumer accessible demo.

(not to mention, exclusive beta/pre-release access to crowdfunding tiers is usually a neat idea.)

edit: also chill out fellas lol, were all plebs here so there's no need to sling mud over projects.
 
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drowned

Guest
@drowned: I think yeo is Russian. The closing parentheses are used kind of like emoji there. You can keep posting open brackets in response, but they're not "his gimmick," just part of Russian net culture, so I don't know how deep your responses are going to cut there. ;)
I think so too, I researched it a little bit. He clearly speaks english though and, presumably, understands that he's posting on an english forum. From this I must conclude that he's doing it intentionally.
 
I think so too, I researched it a little bit. He clearly speaks english though and, presumably, understands that he's posting on an english forum. From this I must conclude that he's doing it intentionally.
::shrug::
When I talk to foreign friends online, they don't drop stuff like that. Rather than being intentional, I think it's just part of how he's used to typing. Would you stop using smiley faces (assuming you use them) just because you were posting on a non-English forum? It's obvious enough what his parentheses mean, even if you're not familiar with the practice.

Who knows, though. Just thought I'd give you a heads up about it, haha.
 
F

Flab

Guest
I've seen those graphics before (not exactly, but it certainly appears similar stylistically). Maybe this'll help potential artists. I think there was a 1986 game that looked pretty similar too, of course, also technos.

 
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drowned

Guest
Would you stop using smiley faces (assuming you use them) just because you were posting on a non-English forum?
If those same smiley faces have no widespread meaning to the non-English speakers of that forum? Of course I'd stop using them, what kind of an egotist wouldn't? Aside from yeo, obviously.
 

yeo

Member
I think yeo is Russian. The closing parentheses are used kind of like emoji there. You can keep posting open brackets in response, but they're not "his gimmick," just a part of Russian net culture
Rather than being intentional, I think it's just part of how he's used to typing.
This is the third English-speaking forum I'm posting (tigsource and shenmudojo are others). Brackets are smiles in Russian net. But if they offend you in some way I won't use them, of course. Didn't know a thing about it actually.
 
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drowned

Guest
They're not brackets, actually, they're parentheses. Free wisdom.
 
This is the third English-speaking forum I'm posting (tigsource and shenmudojo are others). Brackets are smiles in Russian net. But if they offend you in some way I won't use them, of course. Didn't know a thing about it actually.
Nope, they don't bother me at all. Rather, I'm happy you're using them. I love seeing little parts of other people's cultures. Always nice, to me! =)
 
@RichHopelessComposer
Sorry if this is derailing the topic, but you got my attention with what you were saying.

Is it also a bad idea to release open alpha "demos?" I was planning on releasing a "free demo" of my own project after completing the game's first major region as a way to get feedback on difficulty, mechanics, the overall gameplay loop, and stuff like that. But now, after reading all of your thoughts on the downsides of demos, I'm feeling a bit more reluctant. Is the psychological effect different if the player is aware that the demo they're playing doesn't necessarily represent the finished product, and that their opinions on it could actually help make it better? Is it a good idea? A bad idea? Does the opportunity to get early-ish feedback and make a more appealing product outweigh the risk of turning people off by showcasing a project's shortcomings without giving players a reason to commit?
 
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drowned

Guest
I'm gonna give my opinion, because I don't think RichHopelessComposer is any more of an expert on this topic than I am (no offense). Honestly I believe it depends on the quality of your game. If you have a super interesting game and you release it in early access, it will entice people. Look at Early Access on Steam. Darkest Dungeon was in early access for a while and it turned out to be huge... but it's an absolutely amazing game and it was still amazing even in early access. By the opposite token, if your game is a steaming pile in alpha (or in general), and you release it in early access, then it's going to turn people off.

This idea that people will say to themselves "oh I already played the demo, I don't care anymore" is nonsense, quite frankly. That will only happen if the demo fails to do its job.
 
@yeo: I don't think you can close your topic. I don't see a button for it in my thread, either. If you want to close it, I would just report your own topic, or PM a mod.
It'd be a shame to close it, though - your game looks good! I like the newest gif you've shown, too. Great atmosphere, like the others!

This idea that people will say to themselves "oh I already played the demo, I don't care anymore" is nonsense, quite frankly. That will only happen if the demo fails to do its job.
Quite frankly, it's not. There's a reason 99% of the games out there don't offer demos anymore. It's not because they all suck. Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey shipped without demos. Besides those obvious facts, I said that "oh, I already played the demo, I don't care anymore" is my exact experience with almost all of the demos I play. How can you call that "nonsense?" I'm an example of it happening, talking to you now, hahah!
I don't think RichHopelessComposer is any more of an expert on this topic than I am (no offense)
I probably am! No offense, I've just looked into all of this crap a lot over the last five years or so. I think my intuition is pretty well informed, here. Some reading/viewing for you:
https://www.pcgamer.com/analyst-game-demos/
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/do-demos-hurt-game-sales-study-says-yes.278073/
https://kotaku.com/demos-are-great-for-gamers-not-so-great-for-game-sales-608603895
https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgam...le_pc_game_demos_become_rare/#bottom-comments
@RichHopelessComposer
Sorry if this is derailing the topic, but you got my attention with what you were saying.

Is it also a bad idea to release open alpha "demos?" I was planning on releasing a "free demo" of my own project after completing the game's first major region as a way to get feedback on difficulty, mechanics, the overall gameplay loop, and stuff like that. But now, after reading all of your thoughts on the downsides of demos, I'm feeling a bit more reluctant. Is the psychological effect different if the player is aware that the demo they're playing doesn't necessarily represent the finished product, and that their opinions on it could actually help make it better? Is it a good idea? A bad idea? Does the opportunity to get early-ish feedback and make a more appealing product outweigh the risk of turning people off by showcasing a project's shortcomings without giving players a reason to commit?
I think it's different for every game, so its difficult to tell you without seeing your game. Basically, I think:

1.)The uglier your game is, the more a demo will help.
2.)The more confusing/hard to understand/deep/novel your game is, the more a demo will help.

If your game looks professional and is in a genre that's already well known and understood, I think a demo will probably hurt it. If you PM me your game, I'll be happy to give you my opinions/advice.

Sorry for further derailing the thread, @yeo. If you want to keep it open, you could also just report all our off-topic posts to a mod, and they'll come in here and delete them all/yell at us. Or you could just ask us to delete them all - I'd be happy to edit my off-topic stuff out. Either way, good luck with your game!
 
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drowned

Guest
Quite frankly, it's not.
Yes it is. Edit: Frankly.

Besides those obvious facts, I said that "oh, I already played the demo, I don't care anymore" is my exact experience with almost all of the demos I play. How can you call that "nonsense?
Because most of the demos you play suck. Let's do a thought experiment: give me your top three or five favorite games of the past few years, not in any order. Just your favorite few recentish games.

If your game looks professional and is in a genre that's already well known and understood, I think a demo will probably hurt it.
I couldn't disagree more. I think this is completely opposite to how it really works.

Edit: Of your links, two are anecdotal... just uninformed guys talking on forums. The rest all reference the same source and do not show any data. They also pertain to xbox 360 games (a console, which I would argue is very different from PC sales). You've looked into this crap over the last five years right? So show me the data you've gathered and analyzed.
 
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You've looked into this crap over the last five years right? So show me the data you've gathered and analyzed
But...I've already shown more data than you have. Everything you've said has been pulled out of thin air, and your Kickstarter has already demonstrated that your intuition isn't reliable. (No offense, but I could've told you you needed a demo or a much better trailer. I've probably followed hundreds of KS campaigns by now, and it's pretty easy to tell how each is going to end up.) The "anecdotal" stuff I gave you was...a bunch of people saying "yeah, it's true. I *do* skip over games because of demos."

I don't have much else to give you without rooting around and typing for you for three hours, so I'm afraid that's all you're going to get from me - I have nothing to prove to you. I wish I had a nice big study to link you to, but my opinion is based on talking to a bunch of different developers and reading a million little snippets over the years, along with my common sense, not some bombshell report on the dangers of game demos, unfortunately. Thought it'd be good to show you they exist!
 
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drowned

Guest
your KS has already demonstrated that your intuition isn't reliable
My KS demonstrated that I'm new to kickstarter. I knew our trailer was weak, and I said it to my team for weeks. I simply don't have the artistic talent to deal with it. There are many aspects of the game which I would absolutely love to demonstrate but it's just not in that state. Your conclusion demonstrates that your ability to think critically is not reliable.

The "anecdotal" stuff I gave you was...a bunch of people saying "yeah, it's true. I *do* skip over games
This is, of course, the literal definition of "anecdotal". I can tell that you're not a scientist.

I don't have much else to give you without rooting around and typing for you for three hours, so I'm afraid that's all you're going to get from me
Then you are, also by definition, not an expert.

I have nothing to prove to you
So... you're not going to name for me your favorite three games of the recent past?
 
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drowned

Guest
Nah, I'm not done. It didn't take me "three hours" to find this, but:

upload_2018-4-13_3-49-32.png
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games)

Two of the three best selling games of all time on PC have free demos.

Edit: PUBG is on Steam, which lets you refund games that you've played for less than two hours. So, in a way, all three of the top three best selling PC games of all time have free demos.

Edit 2: Diablo III and StarCraft (two of the next three games on the list) also had free demos.

Edit 3: So did both half-life games, rollercoaster tycoon, and Civilization V. Guess I win this argument.
 
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Probably not a good example using two of the most successful game series ever, just saying.

Maybe a mod should come in and cut out all these replies about demos. This game looks fun and it's a shame to have most of his thread be arguing about demos.
I used them as examples because they were so critically lauded, to show that not all games that didn't have demos were trying to hide their lack of quality. Anyone who wants other examples can sub them out for the other 99% of games that release nowadays, though...almost none of them have demos anymore.

But yeah, I agree with you. The demo discussion totally derailed this thread, which is a shame. Sorry, yeo. A mod should come in here and splice all of these replies into a new thread, or just nuke them all if that's too much trouble for what they're worth. Could probably just delete them, hahah.
 
Not necessary, I won that debate.
It's too bad "winning" debates online pays the exact same amount the Kickstarter for your incredible looking game did, eh? ;D

See you around, drowned, hahah. :p

Edit: Actually, it's cheap to insult another member's work, so sorry, drowned. Your attitude in this thread has been bothering me, though, telling yeo he's doing his art "the wrong way," (especially when you can't draw at all yourself), along with your phrasing and persistence after people have told you they're not interested in conversation has really been rubbing me the wrong way.

That said: I sincerely wish you the best of luck on your game. No more arguing or banter from me for real now. ;)
 
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It really is too bad. I should've just ripped off an extremely popular super nintendo game instead.
From what I've seen, it's a winning formula. I think a ripoff of old Sierra adventure games could work too though, if done correctly, heheh. ;)

Edited my last post for you, but you ninja'd me here. See you around. Cheers. =)
 
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drowned

Guest
telling yeo he's doing his art "the wrong way," (especially when you can't draw at all yourself),
Those who can't do, teach... right? Come on. But seriously though, I never criticized his art. I think his artwork is awesome. I constructively criticized his art design (I was and still am correct about that) in a very minor way, and he flew off the handle.

your phrasing and persistence after people have told you they're not interested in conversation has really been rubbing me the wrong way.
If you really are not interested in this conversation, then stop posting. Am I your dad or what?

Edit: Actually, it's cheap to insult another member's work, so sorry, drowned.
Yea it was, thanks for realizing slightly too late.
 

Geoff Jones

Member
I don't really believe in this either. Iconclasts received 7 000 likes on release twit. And only 20K sales this far. Where're all the audience gone? Nobody really knows how it works. Game sells or don't sells.

Crossing Souls had demo and Devolver and kickstarter and everything. And they did 8K. And there're ton of examples like this.
It also helps if a "Pewdipie" reviews your game. Flappy Bird would have been a flop otherwise.
PS I also agree with you on the demo thing. But I think it helps a lot to have a larger audience outside of the dev team to beta test.
PPS Also looking forward to your game. I'll def be buying it without the need to see a demo. Your reasons for which are spot on. It just looks so damn good.
 
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