Opinion Calling Out to All Atheists

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frog

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It's very difficult to communicate to people that have essentially existed in one single way of thinking their entire lives from childhood until adulthood.

Of course I was also a product of the American education system.

But at some point my own curiosity, and natural inclination toward investigating things on my own and asking questions. Led me to undermine the core tenants of this education.

After many years of being heavily into politics and world events. I came to realize that I wasn't being told the whole story.

And after a long time of basically doing my own interesting kind of research. I have come to the conclusion that are not entirely supported by what you're taught in school.

And yet I'm still amazed whenever I talk to people who claim to be intelligent and open minded that they just wanna shut the conversation down as soon as possible.

But I'll never stop. ;)
 
They're so used to having everybody agree with their point of view that if 2 people with different views from them show up in the same conversation, they have a complete meltdown.
Nobody here is having a meltdown. It's just that finding one person as incredibly dense as either of you is incredibly rare. Finding two in the same spot is so cosmically unlikely that it feels almost impossible. We're just going with the most likely answer here. If you two really are different people, then maybe the world really is flat after all - I think that's statistically more likely, hahah! Thanks for the good talk, guys. It was interesting. =)
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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When you can't back up your claims, make jokes. Nice.

No need, if you find the discussion ridiculous, simply don't participate.
I told my mom I met someone online the other day who believes flat earth theory. Her response:

Do people seriously even believe that anymore? Are you serious?
Yes mom, I'm serious, and they exist.

I don't believe you, flat earth believers don't exist.
Ok I admit that second quote from my mom didn't really happen. I just thought it would be ironic.

How is it twisted?
I was actually joking. Remember, this isn't a serious thread. :p (But I was serious about the context of the verses I cited, just to clarify).
 
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signal

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Well, you reap what you sow.
Which one did I ignore? Nocturne's sphere mathematics video isn't proof of anything. That's like me posting a video of planar geometry and saying "BAM the earth is flat".
 
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Lonewolff

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No, I agree. The evidence you have shown is indisputable. The world has to be flat.

Why is it when I fly from Australia to the US, I get maybe two hours of daylight while in the plane and get twelve hours worth when coming back? Yet I leave at the same time of the day.

Why is the moon spherical? I can see it with my own eyes, I can see it rotate with my own time lapse photography.

Why does the tide go up and down in six hourly intervals?

How do we get day and night?

Where do the satellites go when I see them pass over head?

Where do the planes go for that matter?

How is the boat in your argument occluded by waves, when there are no waves in the image?
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@Smarty Haha I seen that before actually. Too good. XD

I think we should stop making fun of them though. If I start doing it again, someone please slap me.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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...are you guys still roasting away on this..?

Our planet is a cube! OKAY?!
The New Jerusalem will be a cube, that is, if the book of Revelation is literal, which is very unlikely.

 
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frog

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Nobody here is having a meltdown. It's just that finding one person as incredibly dense as either of you is incredibly rare. Finding two in the same spot is so cosmically unlikely that it feels almost impossible. We're just going with the most likely answer here. If you two really are different people, then maybe the world really is flat after all - I think that's statistically more likely, hahah! Thanks for the good talk, guys. It was interesting. =)
The average person went to kindergarten when they were 5, 6? You spend a dozen years being babysat by teachers barely out of the poverty bracket, answering test questions on cheap copy paper, half mauled by a misaligned laser printer...

Your argument is that every ordinary person is smart because they don't ask questions about what they see on TV. In essence, that is your entire foundation. It wouldn't be on TV if it wasn't true.

I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence, but I am saying that is an impossible point of view to have if you claim to possess any.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@Nocturne that picture I posted is inaccurate on two accounts.

1) It is way too small. Looking at the size of the doors in my post, and the size of the people in your post, the two cubes look to be the same size. The New Jerusalem, if Revelation is to be taken literally, will hold 144,000 people.
Revelation 7:3-8 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
2) Everyone outside of the New Jerusalem will be in the lake of fire, so really there should be nothing but lava surrounding it on the horizon, not grass. The earth's crust is completely pealed away. Sounds pretty depressing if you ask me, but again, Revelation is symbolic, all the way down to the exact numbers it uses such as the 144,000, (in total), that go to heaven. But you probably already knew that. XD
Revelation 22:14-15 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
 
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Lonewolff

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Damn! Lied to again.

I was sure I was told by the government that the diameter of the earth was at least five metres.




Ah, now this explains it.



You'd think they'd grab one of those cars and take a peek over the edge wouldn't you? Out of curiosity if nothing else?

(Or fly a plane past it? Oh, the 'Arctic Treaty' - A rule so feared that no one has ever heard of it)
 
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Nocturne

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It's very difficult to communicate to people that have essentially existed in one single way of thinking their entire lives from childhood until adulthood.
Like I said, impossible to understand our wild world if you don't know your Bible.
I DO know the bible. I also know the Mahabharata, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, the Pali Sutta, and loads of other religious and philosophical texts too numerous to mention. I should point out that I've also had many discussions with people from all the different religions that I can (including an Archbishop who was a marvelous bloke... had some great chats with him over a pint!). I also have a degree in microbiology and have studied physics and astronomy in my spare time (not to mention all the other little side projects I've had throughout my life related to science and mysticism like the study of Wicca or Alchemy or Von Daniken). I've also lived in 4 different countries, and am currently resident in a country that was not my birthplace (and has a vastly different culture), and every year I spend a month or more in a new country (last year Japan, this year Turkey I think) and on every occasion I make an effort to understand local customs, beliefs language, etc... So, I am VERY open to new experiences, new ways of thinking and new beliefs and at my nearly 44 years of age I still consider myself an immature brat with much to learn about the universe and the human spirit.

What about you? You (and others) always talk about "sheeple" and having to "open your eyes", but have you experienced other cultures and viewpoints? Have you studied other religious texts that are not related to the christian bible? Have you studied any serious science with a truly open mind? Have you tried to understand how other belief systems work and considered that maybe, just maybe, there are other ways of thinking out there? Your answers (and those of others here) seem to constantly insinuate that we must all be ignorant and closed minded, happy to walk the line and never raise our heads to look to the sky, which is arrogant and insulting in the extreme. Throughout this thread I have been asking reasonably for explanations and opinions and proof to back up the ideas that you and others express - while all the time offering as much corroboration as possible to back up mine - and so far all I've gotten back is a couple of images of boats that make no sense to me and a few ad-hominem attacks. I want to be enlightened. I want to experience other world views. I want to understand other beliefs. But if those that promote these beliefs can't even explain or justify these beliefs then one has to question the validity of what is being promoted.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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but have you experienced other cultures and viewpoints? Have you studied other religious texts that are not related to the christian bible?
I have. Mainly the Qur'an, the Mormon faith, Judaism, macro-evolution, and the extra-Biblical books that didn't make it into the cannon of Scripture.

(Yes, I'm aware Muslims, Mormans, and Jews all have books in common with Christians, so if you want to be technical, macro-evolution is the only one completely outside of the realm of Christianity).
 
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frog

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I DO know the bible. I also know the Mahabharata, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, the Pali Sutta, and loads of other religious and philosophical texts too numerous to mention. I should point out that I've also had many discussions with people from all the different religions that I can (including an Archbishop who was a marvelous bloke... had some great chats with him over a pint!). I also have a degree in microbiology and have studied physics and astronomy in my spare time (not to mention all the other little side projects I've had throughout my life related to science and mysticism like the study of Wicca or Alchemy or Von Daniken). I've also lived in 4 different countries, and am currently resident in a country that was not my birthplace (and has a vastly different culture), and every year I spend a month or more in a new country (last year Japan, this year Turkey I think) and on every occasion I make an effort to understand local customs, beliefs language, etc... So, I am VERY open to new experiences, new ways of thinking and new beliefs and at my nearly 44 years of age I still consider myself an immature brat with much to learn about the universe and the human spirit.

What about you? You (and others) always talk about "sheeple" and having to "open your eyes", but have you experienced other cultures and viewpoints? Have you studied other religious texts that are not related to the christian bible? Have you studied any serious science with a truly open mind? Have you tried to understand how other belief systems work and considered that maybe, just maybe, there are other ways of thinking out there? Your answers (and those of others here) seem to constantly insinuate that we must all be ignorant and closed minded, happy to walk the line and never raise our heads to look to the sky, which is arrogant and insulting in the extreme. Throughout this thread I have been asking reasonably for explanations and opinions and proof to back up the ideas that you and others express - while all the time offering as much corroboration as possible to back up mine - and so far all I've gotten back is a couple of images of boats that make no sense to me and a few ad-hominem attacks. I want to be enlightened. I want to experience other world views. I want to understand other beliefs. But if those that promote these beliefs can't even explain or justify these beliefs then one has to question the validity of what is being promoted.
You sound like a pretty hardcore occultist in this post.

I get it. Knowledge is power, secret knowledge is hidden power... agency grants privilege, the ignorant masses, etc.

If you have read all of those texts, you must be very enlightened.

So tell me... who, and what, is God?
 
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signal

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and so far all I've gotten back is a couple of images of boats that make no sense to me and a few ad-hominem attacks.
This was my point. If you didn't understand the images to begin with, why did you endorse the post by "liking" it? The analysis I did on them is pretty straightforward, too, probably easier to understand than the sphere mathematics you posted.

I'll post the images again because I'd actually like to discuss them with @RichHopelessComposer. Dude, just talk to me. Do these images hold up after considering the info I am posting below? Let's talk about it. I'm interested in truth.

My analysis is in red and yellow

23feeeef.png

23rreee.png

And here's a video showing what's going on along the horizon:


Talk to me, bro.
 

Nocturne

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I have. Mainly the Qur'an, the Mormon faith, Judaism, macro-evolution, and the extra-Biblical books that didn't make it into the cannon of Scripture.
Cool! I found the Qur'an to be quite beautiful, although a lot of it's content seems at odds with most other judeo-christian faiths. If you feel like expanding your horizons, I really would recommend that you read the Pali Suttas... Personally, I think they are fascinating and actually contain some incredibly wise words on how to live your life. You'll find that a lot of the core concepts are the same as those that Christ promoted (and there is some discussion about Christ having visited India in his lost years and actually studied Buddhism, which makes sense to me).

EDIT: @signal : I cannot really discuss those images. They are too specific and limited... Yes, I agree that the initial boat could be seen to appear and disappear with the motion of the waves, but that second photo doesn't show a curve because the earth is MASSIVE and you'd need to take a picture from a lot further away to appreciate the curve (like from low earth orbit). However, I don't agree that anything in these images weighs against the hundreds and thousands of photographs of the earth from space, or the live images of the earth from the ISS, or the mathematics of gravity and light, etc...
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@Nocturne Oh yeah I almost forgot about Jehovah's Witness. They change things up every time a prophesy doesn't happen, just like the Mormons, Muslims, and macro-evolutionists are constantly changing their sacred texts.

I think, if you ask me, well, what I like about Christianity, one of the many things, is that we do our best to not modify our core message in the actual text. About as much as we do is translate, sometimes mistranslated by accident, only to correct it later, if everyone agrees on how it what it was originally meant to say. We really do try. You can tell by reading the original texts in Greek and Paleo-Hebrew, which many have claimed to have done, and I'll take their word for it. (BTW - the stone tablets the ten commandments were originally written on were are believed by biblical scholars was written in Paleo-Hebrew, it is much much different from modern-day Hebrew, though they still write from right-to-left).

Sure some people call themselves Christians and modify the bible, taking out verses they don't like, and adding in what they wish it said. For instance, I sometimes think when I'm cocky that "Children, obey your parents" shouldn't be in there, because I come from a background of abusive parents who would misuse that verse as an excuse for them to abuse me however they want and I couldn't do anything to retaliate as a child without being called demon possessed. If you want to know where I got my crazy from, my parents are to blame.

That aside, in my arrogance I've also put stuff in there, like, for example, "Parents, do not abuse your children, and think you'll get away with everything." The closest thing I've found to that verse is Ephesians 6:4, but I'm not satisfied with it's contents, and should have more emphasis, because there are a lot of awful parents out there some much worse than mine, whether Christian or not or whether they quote the "Children, obey you parents" is irrelevant.

I've been physically abused by both of them to the point of blood since I was very young. Strangled, punched, pinched with sharp nails (my mom), kicked in the face, pinned down, bitten (my mom), and many horrible things.

Sorry for being off topic, I just had some disturbing flashbacks.

But anyway regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees with the Bible or Catholic Bible, whether whole or in part, the text for the most part has stayed the same longer than any other historical or spiritual text that I'm aware of. I've studied on what Catholics believe a lot too but not as recently. I believe they go to heaven because, unlike the Mormons, the devil isn't a brother of Satan to them, and, unlike the Muslims, Jesus is Savior and the only way to them. I'd say their foundation is just as solid is ours, so really either one of use could be right about whether their books should've been included or not. I believe that both Catholics and non-Catholics go to heaven for these reasons. I really don't know who's right. Both are interesting perspectives to me.
 
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Nocturne

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Bollocks to "always obey your parents". Sorry, but this is just one of the many things that are considered to be core concepts of christianity that I just can't comprehend... People can be wrong. People can be evil and what happens when you get evil parents? You have to obey them? To hell with that... Don't let your past shape your future. There are beautiful people around too, so surround yourself with them when and where you can.
 
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frog

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Something I think the majority of people can't grasp, and especially prominent among atheists, is that when the Bible lays out precepts and moral standards, it also at the same time explains that it is impossible for you to adhere to them.

If this wasn't bad enough, the Ministry of Christ revealed that it's not only the things that you do which are sinful, it's also the things with you feel in your heart.

The Bible says obey your parents, but obviously what if your parents are evil... Well, if your parents weren't evil then you would have no reason not to obey them. So it is one sin that causes another person to sin. And so is the sinful nature of mankind.

Always learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@Nocturne God overrides what they say, so they can't tell you to sin and be biblical about it, but they can use it in provoking ways even if they aren't telling you to sin. i.e. if you don't do what they want and right that minute they'll call the police because they have a disobedient child. They'll blame me for things that I've done in the past that is legally questionable, even though I was much younger then, and it was understandable that I was suicidal.

I actually find it stupid you are considered crazy or in need to be kept alive by law if you are feeling suicidal. Even if you tell someone you are suicidal, they could get in trouble with the law if they don't tell the police what they heard. Or that's how it is where I live, anyway. Yes, I've been physically abusive to my parents to back when all that stuff was a thing, but I think as a little 8-16 year old I'm not much a literal threat to them.

I'm glad that I get along with them on a day to day basis now, like you have no idea. I've learned to absorb and not let things escalate.

Something I think the majority of people can't grasp, and especially prominent among atheists, is that when the Bible lays out precepts and moral standards, it also at the same time explains that it is impossible for you to adhere to them.

If this wasn't bad enough, the Ministry of Christ revealed that it's not only the things that you do which are sinful, it's also the things with you feel in your heart.

The Bible says obey your parents, but obviously what if your parents are evil... Well, if your parents weren't evil then you would have no reason not to obey them. So it is one sin that causes another person to sin. And so is the sinful nature of mankind.

Always learning, but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
Are you insinuating that I haven't come to the knowledge of the truth? I agree with the rest of your post. While yes we are held accountable for our own sin, we can't be responsible for the sins of each other. I'm aware sin is wrong, and I do confess to God, have done so many times in tears over some of the worse things that I have done, so please understand, I am no fake Christian, perhaps a very terrible excuse for one, but no Pharisee.
 
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signal

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Quick, someone call the duplicate-account police (@Ghost in the IDE)! Two people are conversing peacefully with one another. We must put a stop to it before things get out of hand!
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@signal If you are referring to me, we just made up after practically hating each other, (well I wouldn't go that far, I just mean we haven't always been on good terms like we are now). I was joking btw, while I had the suspicion you and @frog were the same person, I just posted that to push your guys' buttons. I honestly don't know what to think in that regard.
 
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signal

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Nah, I was referring to you and Nocturne. I'm on to you two... you're just a little toooo friendly if you know what I mean.
 
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frog

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Actually, you can be responsible for causing another person to sin. And another person can put you in a position where you have no choice but to sin.

The expectation from God if you want to attain righteousness without needing Christ for Salvation is that you would follow the law to a tee even to your own self destruction.

Only Christ did that.

The rest of us will sin to save our skin.

That's why he's the savior.

The key point of all Satanism and atheism is the exaltation of the human virtues, while simultaneously rejecting the moral authority of Almighty God. If you can say I disagree with the scriptures or I disagree with the Bible, then chances are no you're not saved.

Lest you forget that on that day there should be many who come to him, saying Lord Lord. And he will say to them depart from me. You workers of iniquity for I never knew you. He says this to people who claim to believe in him, but in their hearts have no faith.
 

Nocturne

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@signal If you are referring to me, we just made up after practically hating each other, (well I wouldn't go that far, I just mean we haven't always been on good terms like we are now).
lol! I wouldn't go that far! I may have hated some of your actions, but not you personally. I don't think I've ever hated anyone... anyway, water under the bridge and all that!

And so is the sinful nature of mankind.
See, this is one of the things I really loath about organised religion. It promotes self-hate, self-doubt and general negativity about humanity, when in reality most people are good at heart and all want the same thing... love, food, warmth and fulfillment.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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@frog I'm not saying you disagree with Scripture, but that leave you no room to judge my heart, if that is what I was doing.

We are saved by Grace alone, but that does not give us a license for immorality.

I'm glad we are on the same page, except for the part where you said we are responsible for the sins of each other and the comparison you made of atheists with Satanists. That was just plain uncalled for. You don't go saying that around them, that just scares them away like you have no idea. Then there's the fact you shouldn't say that amongst other believers either, because atheists and Satanists are not the same thing.

Can you show me the verse where it says we are accountable for each other's sin? I'd like to educate myself if there was something I missed all my life.

We all sin, you can't get away from that. In Christ we can improve. Even non-believers can improve, even though in their case it isn't Christ moving their hearts to change. I have to sisters, but that is aside the point - my older one is an atheist and a radical feminist, (using her words not mine). Anyway she no longer does alcohol, (no longer gets drunk I mean), she acknowledged it was wrong and it was bad for her and making her life worse. I'm very proud of her to be quite honest, she's come a long way in the past half a decade or so.
 
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frog

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lol! I wouldn't go that far! I may have hated some of your actions, but not you personally. I don't think I've ever hated anyone... anyway, water under the bridge and all that!


See, this is one of the things I really loath about organised religion. It promotes self-hate, self-doubt and general negativity about humanity, when in reality most people are good at heart and all want the same thing... love, food, warmth and fulfillment.
The Bible says man's heart is filled only with every kind of wicked imagination.

But you knew that.
 
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Smarty

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Your conversation style is vain and lacks substance [snip]. Asking big, presumptuous questions with the hopes of creating a "gotcha" moment, coupled with showboating and grandstanding... It's simply unwarranted.
Excuse me, who are we talking about now? Signal? You? It applies to you both, and there are times I can't keep you apart.

You're welcome to not participate if this conversation irks you so much that you're simply hell bent on derailing it.
Don't give me so much honor, this thread went off the rails way before I entered it, and I am confident it keeps that course now that you are at the helm.
 
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frog

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@frog I'm not saying you disagree with Scripture, but that leave you no room to judge my heart if that is what I was doing.

We are saved by Grace alone, but that does not give us a license for immorality.

I'm glad we are on the same page, except for the part where you said we are responsible for the sins of each other and the comparison you made of atheists with Satanists. That was just plain uncalled for. You don't go saying that around them, that just scares them away like you have no idea. Then there's the fact you shouldn't say that amongst other believers either, because atheists and Satanists are not the same thing.
I'm sorry, but I'm not a part of whatever version of Christianity you are part of. I'm the kind of Christian that believes the Bible. God makes it very clear that if you're not one of his children then you are of your Father The Devil. I know it's very controversial to quote the Bible, especially for today's modern Christian. For example, did you know there are verses is the scriptures other than "God is love"? Also did you know Jesus didn't always say nice things to other people?

I appreciate that you're a modern progressive sensitive Christian that doesn't want to offend anybody else, but the Bible clearly states that the majority of people are going to go to hell. I don't know how you were kingsisle being a Christian and not really believing in the Bible. But I mean that's for each person to work out on their own.
 
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Sam (Deleted User)

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Ironically enough, I got to go to a men's small group Bible study in 15 minutes. Time to hit the shower.

Yes, you are judging my heart. Isn't that fantastic. I'm not judging yours, even though we can all agree in this thread there are a plethora of things I could pick at in you. Anyways, I'm not like that.

Yes, they are children of the devil, but that's how we all are born into this world before we know Christ, and that includes you and me. So we are no better than them, even as Children of God. Again all men are created equal -- NOT -- all men are equal once they have been saved.

What I meant is that they don't worship the devil. That's not the same thing.

This isn't fit for a public discussion - you don't go telling athiests to their face they are children of the devil - but you just sucked me into to saying it when I was trying to avoid it.

You are WAY off your rocker bro.

See you in like 5 hours.
 
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Lonewolff

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Pretty easy to avoid the questions isn't it @signal ?

I notice that you have a habit of telling others they are avoiding things and then go bury your head in the sand when asked anything in return.

In summary (and some more)
  • No one ever thought to travel to the edge of the 'plate' and have a look?
  • 'Arctic treaty' apparently forbids this. Yet no one has ever heard of this treaty. Government possibly doing a double whammy?
  • The 'Flat earth society' says that if the Earth was a globe, it would be two metres in diametre :confused:
  • Why do the stars rotate around a fixed point at night? (Demonstratable by using an SLR and opening the shutter for a few minutes). And why do the stars rotate the other way for the liars who say they are on the other side of the planet?
  • If the edge of the world is a big wall of ice and we haven't ventured past this. How do we know that the wall of ice doesn't stop and lead to new continents and additional barriers of ice? Might be a bigger world out there.
  • Why does the water go down the sink clockwise for some and anti-clockwise for others?
  • Why can I hold a ruler up to the horizon and see a fraction of light either side below the ruler?
  • If the sun is traversing the world in a circular flat fashion, how do you explain seasonal activities?
  • If the sun is traversing the world in a circular flat fashion, everyone would experience the same day night cycle, otherwise the sun would have to be only a few miles above the planet surface. Wouldn't it?
Don't want to overwhelm you too much, so I'll leave it at that for the moment :)


Good thing is, we seem to have Frog and Signal confined to 'Off Topic'. Job well done there, guys! Your efforts don't go unnoticed. :D
 
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signal

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@Ghost in the IDE only one of the questions you asked (I believe it was the last one) had anything to do with the boat pictures/video. As for the other questions, go watch some youtube videos on the subject (preferably from multiple sources).

If you want to take it one questions at a time, that's cool with me, but I'm not into reading walls of text or trying to discuss multiple topics/questions all at once.
 
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signal

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Can one of you guys explain this bad boy (Paul VI Audience Hall) to me:

5WCsSlu.jpg
 
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frog

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@Ghost in the IDE only one of the questions you asked (I believe it was the last one) had anything to do with the boat pictures/video. As for the other questions, go watch some youtube videos on the subject (preferably from multiple sources).

If you want to take it one questions at a time, that's cool with me, but I'm not into reading walls of text or trying to discuss multiple topics/questions all at once.
I abandoned the Flat Earth debate, it just didn't seem to offer anything positive to people on either side.

I just focus on literal bible interpretation. You do bump into flat earth this way, but there's no reason to spend more than a few moments on the subject of the shape of the Earth, it's something God has to show people.
 
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