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Gamedev & Career Choice?

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Ufy

Guest
First of all, I would like to apologize if this is posted in the wrong section.

I've been using Gamemaker Studio 2 for months now, alternating between creating big, unfinished projects and small (but finished) projects. Through the projects that I have created, I have learned quite a lot. However, recently, as I started to get into the more advanced topics, I started to wonder about whether this would make a good career choice, or whether the time that I'm currently spending on working with GMS2 is worth it.

Here's my situation: I'm a young boy who just started high school, and I've had some experience on programming in the past, which made getting into Gamemaker much easier.

My dream job is to either be an Indie GameDev or a Gamedev working for a triple A company. However, my main concerns is that it wouldn't earn me much money as it would if I started that career choice now. I mean, I don't even know whether 2D games will still exist/be popular in the next five years - and that thought always haunts me when I start to seriously delve into complex topics in Gamemaker. I tried to get into Unity, but found it a bit hard to get started, so I reverted back to Gamemaker.

Sometimes, I wonder whether it would be more worth it to start learning languages like Python and Java now (which I know the basics of) for my future, rather than working on Gamemaker, since those would probably make me more money. Also, If I want to work for a Triple A company, I shouldn't probably be working with Gamemaker, should I? Since they probably don't use Gamemaker. I listened to Shaun Spalding's talk on Youtube, and he explained about how he got a job in Ubisoft,after releasing a game made with Gamemaker, so that made me confused a bit.

Also, another career choice might be to be a freelancer. But I don't know if that will earn me enough money. (I signed up for a popular freelance website, and looked at all the gamedev projects, and there were already 8-10 people proposing themselves to work for that project, so my chances are basically slim.)

Another choice would be to make tutorials while also making video games. Currently, I run a YouTube channel where I basically explain what I learned and how to do certain stuff. While this might work, I look at channels like Shaun Spalding, and even though he's practically the biggest GMS2 channel along with Heartbeast, he has said in multiple occasions how his YouTube channel alone doesn't really give him enough money to pay the rents and stuff. (correct me if I'm wrong).

-_- <- my face when I stopped writing and saw that I practically wrote an essay. Okay, insteadd of making a full-fledged article, I'm just going to create a list of questions which you may or may not choose to answer/discuss:
TL;DR (My questions to the more experienced/older people)
- The future of 2D games? Will the market still be as strong when I get older, or in the next 3-8 years?
- Is it worth it to use Gamemaker Studio in the long run? What I mean by this, is will it survive in the years to come?
- Will being an Indie Game Developer still work in the next 5-8 years?
- Indie Game Dev or work for a Triple A Company or work as a freelancer?
- It would be awesome if the more experienced people share their experience with GameDev/their career choices related to it!
 
- I don't think its strong at the moment. You only hear about the success stories. 2D games struggle with few examples of success.
-Take a look at the majority of games on Steam made with GameMaker with under 10 or under 20 non key reviews. I'd wager those games haven't made back the money for the time they invested.
- Work for a Triple A company which will most likely require a college degree. The college degree vouches for you that you know what you're doing. Plus a lot of colleges and universities like to brag about their job placement rate so they have people to find students careers. Then in time... quit the job and be an indie developer. Even then I've seen AAA go indie and fail to make money.
 

andev

Member
- The future of 2D games? Will the market still be as strong when I get older, or in the next 3-8 years?
In my humble and inexperienced opinion, if 2D games were going away as a result of 3D games, they would have been dead a very very long time ago. But I don't think this is a black and white issue, because you can make a game look 3D when it's actually programmed 2D. (3D sprites, isometric or other convincing camera angles).

2D games struggle with few examples of success.
I suspect this is due to triple A studios mainly focusing on 3D games. But for an example literally released this year, Celeste.

- Is it worth it to use Gamemaker Studio in the long run? What I mean by this, is will it survive in the years to come?
GM:S is a very powerful tool if you know how to use it, but it's not about the tool, it's about how you use the tool. I think it's fair to say you could take any popular 2D game and rebuild it in any of the top game making engines, if you were experienced with it.

But ok, lets say game maker disappears forever in 1 year. All the dev team disappear and Mac/Windows both require a critical OS update that everyone installs which breaks all GM compiled games. Everything you've learnt from game maker is completely applicable to other languages. The syntax, although lenient is identical to C++. The functionality is very similar to python. It would take you a fraction of the time to pick up another language after investing all your efforts into it.

The real question is, are you programming to make money or because you enjoy it? I've found that the speed of learning to program is completely dependant on motivation and fascination to learn. If you don't consider programming work, and would enjoy it in your free time, it's worth giving it a shot as a career.

- Will being an Indie Game Developer still work in the next 5-8 years?
I think the indie part is irrelevant. Gaming is not going away, so being programming is not a disappearing job, especially given that you could branch out into other new technologies like machine learning, automation and the likes.

If you can make a product that other people want to buy, regardless of complexity, you're onto something (statement of the obvious).
 

Niels

Member
2D always has it's place, and the general public won't care what engine/tool has been used to create a certain game... they are only interested in how the game plays/looks.

Why don't you learn to be a regular software developer and see if you can be a indiedev on the side?
 

FrostyCat

Redemption Seeker
- The future of 2D games? Will the market still be as strong when I get older, or in the next 3-8 years?
2D games have a future. Some things just don't make sense in 3D. But the trend is that even 2D games are taking on 3D presentations, using depth as decor. Some of them use actual 3D, others fake it with pre-rendering plus 2D placement.

- Is it worth it to use Gamemaker Studio in the long run? What I mean by this, is will it survive in the years to come?
Thus far I have no evidence of GM going away. So you can use it for a long time if you so choose. But I don't see any evidence of GM becoming a significant asset in the game development industry, save select design positions. Every person I've seen "getting a game-oriented job for using GM" are getting design positions or a coding job for another language they learned on the side.

- Will being an Indie Game Developer still work in the next 5-8 years?
It will work the same way it always did with everything indie. Most will spend upwards of half a decade eating beans and in the red until they hit gold. And for those who hit gold, few get to make lightning strike twice.

- Indie Game Dev or work for a Triple A Company or work as a freelancer?
None of them. Niels has the best advice for you: Learn to be a regular software developer, pick up basic math and computers science, and get an in-demand specialization (e.g. app dev, computer graphics, big data, etc.). Develop games as a hobby and turn pro only if you seize a major opportunity.

As enamoured as I was with game development pre-university, I no longer see it as a viable career path on a personal level. Game dev jobs have massively degraded in both AAA and non-AAA spheres. When the game hits the shelves or gets unshelved a year or so later, it's often time for another job, especially if you don't have seniority. Turnover and burnout are driving game developers into other kinds of development, into their own gigs or out of the industry altogether.

- It would be awesome if the more experienced people share their experience with GameDev/their career choices related to it!
I really don't know what to make out of your situation. You say you're starting high school, yet your profile says you are 18, which is typically the age for ending high school. These require two polar-opposite decisions.

If you overstated your age and are just starting high school, your focus should be on competitive and volunteer experience. Commercial work should be off the menu because you can't independently sign binding contracts as a minor. Even if you get your parents to sign for you, people who ask questions the way you did will "pay tuition" many times before getting it right. So stick with competitive math and computer science, and get AP/IB courses aggressively to cut intros off first year post-secondary. If you get to go to a science fair (which I almost did), go for it. If you get to maintain or build a product for a local charity or school department (which I did), take this opportunity right away and make it work. This is huge on post-secondary admissions, especially for programs that offer extern opportunities --- the easiest way to crack the first-job barrier without parental help.

If you are actually ending high school, your focus should be immediate admissibility and employability. If you have no competitive, commercial or volunteer experience with coding at this point, just cut the crap and learn a trade instead. No university or workplace worth its weight would want someone in that state, and any university that would take in such a recruit probably can't do enough stop postgraduate unemployment. Only once you have a career can you afford a hobby. And I attest that game development makes a fine hobby.

My main occupation is now in web applications. Game development is no longer my job nor dream, it's now a hobby. I do it the way a grown cat kneads a blanket --- not to get milk, but to escape to a simpler time. The fact that I make as much off this hobby as I spend is already a bonus.
 
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Ufy

Guest
2D games have a future. Some things just don't make sense in 3D. But the trend is that even 2D games are taking on 3D presentations, using depth as decor. Some of them use actual 3D, others fake it with pre-rendering plus 2D placement.


Thus far I have no evidence of GM going away. So you can use it for a long time if you so choose. But I don't see any evidence of GM becoming a significant asset in the game development industry, save select design positions. Every person I've seen "getting a game-oriented job for using GM" are getting design positions or a coding job for another language they learned on the side.


It will work the same way it always did with everything indie. Most will spend upwards of half a decade eating beans and in the red until they hit gold. And for those who hit gold, few get to make lightning strike twice.


None of them. Niels has the best advice for you: Learn to be a regular software developer, pick up basic math and computers science, and get an in-demand specialization (e.g. app dev, computer graphics, big data, etc.). Develop games as a hobby and turn pro only if you seize a major opportunity.

As enamoured as I was with game development pre-university, I no longer see it as a viable career path on a personal level. Game dev jobs have massively degraded in both AAA and non-AAA spheres. When the game hits the shelves or gets unshelved a year or so later, it's often time for another job, especially if you don't have seniority. Turnover and burnout are driving game developers into other kinds of development, into their own gigs or out of the industry altogether.


I really don't know what to make out of your situation. You say you're starting high school, yet your profile says you are 18, which is typically the age for ending high school. These require two polar-opposite decisions.

If you overstated your age and are just starting high school, your focus should be on competitive and volunteer experience. Commercial work should be off the menu because you can't independently sign binding contracts as a minor. Even if you get your parents to sign for you, people who ask questions the way you did will "pay tuition" many times before getting it right. So stick with competitive math and computer science, and get AP/IB courses aggressively to cut intros off first year post-secondary. If you get to go to a science fair (which I almost did), go for it. If you get to maintain or build a product for a local charity or school department (which I did), take this opportunity right away and make it work. This is huge on post-secondary admissions, especially for programs that offer extern opportunities --- the easiest way to crack the first-job barrier without parental help.

If you are actually ending high school, your focus should be immediate admissibility and employability. If you have no competitive, commercial or volunteer experience with coding at this point, just cut the crap and learn a trade instead. No university or workplace worth its weight would want someone in that state, and any university that would take in such a recruit probably can't do enough stop postgraduate unemployment. Only once you have a career can you afford a hobby. And I attest that game development makes a fine hobby.

My main occupation is now in web applications. Game development is no longer my job nor dream, it's now a hobby. I do it the way a grown cat kneads a blanket --- not to get milk, but to escape to a simpler time. The fact that I make as much off this hobby as I spend is already a bonus.
About my age - I overstated it since I thought one needed to be 18 or older to be a member of this site. I'm far younger than that. Currently, I'm in an IB school and next year about to take on a DP programme (diplome programme). I got a scholarship for high school, and we're doing community service this year so I hope it wouldn't be that hard to find a good college or get a job. Aside from school, I'm currently learning different programming languages including GML in hopes of creating a portfolio of... something.

At first, I wanted to get good at Web Development and my plan was to build a portfolio for that so it would be easier for me to get a job later on, but after discovering GMS, my plan changed.

After reading some of the comments here, i think I have a new plan. Right now, I'm trying to learn as many programming languages as I can while strengthening my knowledge of programming algorithms (and trying to implement them to Gamemaker).

Thanks for the insight on this matter!
 

hogwater

Member
Don't make a portfolio, make a game. Don't be 💩💩💩💩 at 50 things, be good at one thing. If you get good enough at one thing people will allow you the time to get good at other things.
 
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Widget

Guest
I suggest you make a portfolio. As in, an online presence. Something an employer will type into a searchbar and they'll see the things you spent your time on. Usually a website, but a WordPress, Tumblr or Facebook page might do.

The portfolio should be comprised of the things you want to build a career out of. If you want to be developing, show off your games. You want to be illustrating, show off your artwork. Designer, show off your designs. You're very lucky to want to start a career in this at a young age, I think many of us wished we started earlier.

Basically, without it getting in the way of your education, literally start doing the thing you want to do (goodbye, spare time), the more you do it, the more you build up a portfolio, the higher your chances of getting noticed. Getting noticed can be the hardest part for both indies and anyone who wants to get employed.
 
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ajan-ko

Guest
It depends on what you're good at, if you're good at programming, get a programming degree.
Even if you're rejected in game studio, you still can apply those degree to other IT companny.
The IT-related future job is really good (at least for now).

As for the languange, just try different language and mess around with it, after you have lot's of trial and error,
you will find the programming language that you're comfortable with, and focus on that language.
 
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MishMash

Guest
I think its best to look at these questions in a different way. Given that i'm in the position of currently working as a full-time indie dev, I can shed a bit of light onto how things are going.

First of all, I am still working on an unreleased project that has been in development for a few years. I worked part-time on the project until it got to a point where I as comfortable to take a risk in working on it full time. Currently, I am living off my savings after having graduated from university, doing a bit of part-time freelance to help pay the bills. Financially, working on this project would generally be unviable, however as I have no financial dependencies atm, aside from having to cover rent/food/bills, I can live cheaply and there isn't really a downside to failure.

Second of all, with regard to the project itself, in my opinion, you should always be working on a project because you WANT to, not because there is a dream of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. From your post, I do think you enjoy gamedev, however a better starting point would be to spend the next few years just enjoying the process of making games, working on random new projects, learning new things and so on. Regardless of what engine or language you use, experience is the most important thing. The tool you use is ultimately irrelevant and once you have been programming for a few years, you will realise that it is easy to pick up a new engine or a new programming language, you just choose the one that is best suited to the job at hand. The most important thing you can do now is keep challenging yourself to learn new things! A programmer never stops learning and being able to learn fast is the best possible skill you can have.
I'd also recommend avoiding bigger projects early on, as they can become a time-sink and you can get stuck in a trap of not really learning anything new, or not venturing. Though anything that lasts a few months is okay, just don't necessarily expect to be creating your dream game straight out of the gate.

Moving onto the status of the market, and how lucrative it is being an indie developer can be broken into multiple different questions. First of all, it all depends on what you want to get out of it, it is true that crazy success is quite narrow, but that has always been the case. However, if you enjoy the process, living can be relatively cheap if you don't have a huge stack of expenses, in which case, even what some would consider unsuccessful could be enough for you.
I also believe that the market itself is quite strong at the moment, but the flipside is that there are more and more games coming out every day. I don't tend to worry too much about that, but instead focus my energy on doing everything I can to get my game's name out there and most importantly, spend time making the game as good as possible, rather than asking "what if?".

I will say that it is very hard to develop an indie game without a budget, or even with a limited budget. Over the next few years, there will be a demand for higher standards and the average game will need to be better. One big issue at the moment is that there have been a large number of early access titles that haven't delivered on their promises, and this could mean consumer faith goes down. Whether this would cause the market to crash is a different question. Personally, I don't think the market will crash, I think well-developed Indie titles with a budget will experience similar success rates to how they have done in the past, but the borderline games will start to get squelched out. Obviously, it is hard to judge what constitutes a "borderline" game, as everyone will think their own game is good and may not fit in.

I think the best approach is to keep Indie development as a hobby, until you perhaps reach a point where the project is far enough along that taking time to work on it fulltime is viable. I've taken all the measures I can to ensure that even if my game doesn't work out, it won't really damage me financially in the long run, and it'll still have been a good time investment for both gaining experience and for having a chance at making it into a career.

The takeaway here is that nothing will happen on its own without hard work, and equally, there is no guarantee of return. So, if it is something you want to consider, then work hard towards it, but also keep your options open!
 

Yal

🐧 *penguin noises*
GMC Elder
From my experiences so far with two (non-game-related) programming jobs and some close friends that work in the game industry, every company uses different languages and sometimes even different languages per project, so no matter which language you're using the most, chances are you'll need to learn a new one for your "real" job. Trying out a bunch of different ones would definitely improve your adaptability, though.

I think it makes sense that most game jobs people get are design-related, too... anyone can be a code monkey, but design takes more skill. Having a bit of coding knowledge also makes you better at game design, because you've got a better grasp of what's feasible. And heck, there's a lot of famous indie games made in RPG Maker, which almost doesn't even let you code in the first place - Yume Nikki, To The Moon, Space Funeral... I personally see my programming just as means to an end; it lets me make the worlds I'm imagining come to life.
 
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ajan-ko

Guest
Every company uses different languages and sometimes even different languages per project, so no matter which language you're using the most, chances are you'll need to learn a new one for your "real" job. Trying out a bunch of different ones would definitely improve your adaptability, though.
This is true.
 

KurtBlissZ

Member
See it the exact way as Yal, its just a means to an end, anyone can program and youtube a few programming tutorials, design is the tricky part. Whole point in this community is game design, GameMaker(Language) is a very amazing tool for it.

You know Nintendo when they design games they use basic shapes at first... Spend huge amounts of time perfecting the main core of the game like movement, then they do graphics.. .Graphics are a huge part, but you know its good when its fun without, then even better with. Not necessary to do it that way a lot of companies don't do it that way, think it shows how a big of a challenge design is when its the only thing your focused on and not even assets for your game and Nintendo makes most of the best games out there.
 
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Feniks

Guest
-Take a look at the majority of games on Steam made with GameMaker with under 10 or under 20 non key reviews. I'd wager those games haven't made back the money for the time they invested
Problem with this is that most of those games are objectively rubish. I am yet to see deserving game fail badly.

Developers either make games that don't target right platform (party local multiplayer for PC as example), don't market like anywhere or their game is genuinely rubish. I don't think making games is harder we just see more people make more rubish games.

Like with any buisness you actually need to treat it like buisness. I see some many indie dev treat game making like a hobby and be suprised it brings money like a hobby. If you want your game to bring money you need to actually make a game that there is demand for not just a hobby project.
 

TheSnidr

Heavy metal viking dentist
GMC Elder
If you want a career in game programming, you'd probably be best off either being a genius, or learning proper programming practices at some university. Some people manage to self-teach how to make successful games and live off of their creations, but they are few and far between - and they're the ones you hear about. Just talking from my own observations here. I personally have a steady job completely unrelated to game programming, which allows me to create anything I want on my spare time without a need to make money off of it. That's both my current and my ideal situation! :D
 
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Feniks

Guest
I agree 100% that university is probably the shortest route, I don't dispute that. I'm just saying that every year in any creating field be it indie dev, youtube graphics we hear it's now impossible to break through and every year people break through.
 
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MishMash

Guest
I think it makes sense that most game jobs people get are design-related, too... anyone can be a code monkey, but design takes more skill. Having a bit of coding knowledge also makes you better at game design, because you've got a better grasp of what's feasible. And heck, there's a lot of famous indie games made in RPG Maker, which almost doesn't even let you code in the first place - Yume Nikki, To The Moon, Space Funeral... I personally see my programming just as means to an end; it lets me make the worlds I'm imagining come to life.
See it the exact way as Yal, its just a means to an end, anyone can program and youtube a few programming tutorials, design is the tricky part. Whole point in this community is game design, GameMaker(Language) is a very amazing tool for it.
I have to say I somewhat disagree with these sentiments, though I guess it depends what sort of game developer you are. For me, I think the technical challenge is all the fun! I also believe that a game isn't entirely down to pure game design, but rather the technology that sets that up is just as important. My ideal job would however be working deep inside a game engines core, working on optimising the rendering pipeline, or creating the technology to support giant game worlds. I also love researching new programming techniques, algorithms or creating new graphical effects that haven't been done before.

I personally dislike it when programming is coined off as being "easy". Sure, programming can be a means to an end, but without a good baseline understanding, it can be horrendous. (Not saying that either of you don't understand, as you clearly do. What I mean is I wouldn't want to encourage an attitude that you can instantly make whatever you want after watching a few tutorials on Youtube).

That is to say, game design is definitely tricky, and I am personally pretty bad at it :p But I try to make up for that by being better on the technical side (Which is more what it used to be like back in the old days when 90% of the focus was on the tech, and not on the game itself). But equally, you wont get very far just being an "ideas man".

From my personal experience, I started programming at 11 and got really into it. I recently finished my Computer Science degree and I will admit, the University didn't really teach you all that much about programming itself, but more about concepts. For example, I know lots of people at the university still wouldn't be able to instantly make a computer game, however they would be in a better position to learn how. One thing I will say though is that regardless of whether you go to university or not, it is generally far easier to learn how to program quickly once you are 18/19 vs when you are 14/15. So for most university graduates, they are at a similar level to someone who started a few years before them (assuming same level of base intelligence), however the person who started earlier will definitely have more practical experience. Though, in terms of the most important skill, getting good at learning and discipline is something University can teach you!
 
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